In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this sysop and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 15:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC).
Please note: This template is for listing disputes about actions that are limited to administrators only, specifically these actions:
For all other matters (such as edit wars and page moves), please use the template at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Example user.
This adminstrator has subverted the intent of VfD on numerous occasions. While the
Deletion guidelines for administrators are deliberately vague, it does urge "attempting to be as impartial as is possible." This administrator has had considerable input (see below) regarding this, but has continued to stretch closure votes like
Silly Putty picking up
Spider-Man.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 15:53, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Um, yeah. The template has summary in both these spots?
Tony's actions in the midst of these discussion:
My edit counts and date of first edits for this vote:
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the sysop whose actions are disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the sysop's actions did not violate policy. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.
When I close a VfD, I want to give the editors maximum control over what happens next; as VfD closer I have to make the important decision--whether or not to delete, but if I don't get a consensus to merge I don't think I need to consider whether to merge or keep--leave it to the editors. Sometimes I unilaterally, as an editor, take that action myself, but I do so after closing and I make a note saying that I am being bold; my action is reversible and is not part of the closing process. For instance if there is a substantial vote to merge but this doesn't amount to consensus, then I may perform the merge myself. I do not, however, pretend that I can read into the vote that which is not there.
If there really is a consensus vote to merge, however, I will perform the merge as part of the VfD closure, and enforce it as part of Wikipedia policy if attempts are made to reverse it (this has happened, Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Jim_Robinson, merged on a 75% consensus, confirmed by subsequent vote in Wikipedia:Votes for Undeletion.
It is not the closer's job to second-guess the disposition of an article--a VfD discussion is not required for a page move, a merge, a redirect or indeed anything other than a deletion. Any editor can perform these tasks if there is a consensus for them. If a consensus emerges during VfD (see above) it should be performed as part of the closing. It should not be manufactured by the closer.
Smoddy suggests "I would define the result of a "no consensus" as being "do the most conservative option". The VfD guide agrees, and so do I. The most conservative option a VfD closer can make, if there is no consensus to delete, is to leave what happens next up to the editors.
As far as I'm aware, there is no limitation on the power of an administrator to undelete an article.
I hereby absolutely refute the false, unsupported and malicious allegation by R. Fiend that I count socks and anons selectively "when it suits me." This refutation was added to the response after the thirteenth endorsement.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.
I signed above as well. Many of these VfDs are entirely divided between "merge" and "delete", "redirect" and "delete", or "BJAODN" and "delete". Yet, when a decision cannot be made between two votes which are clearly not keeps, "keep" is the effective outcome. This is all very well in a vote between "delete" and "keep". But in a vote where the options are clearly opposed to keeping the article in its current state, this is senseless. I would define the result of a "no consensus" as being "do the most conservative option". So merge/delete becomes merge, redirect/delete becomes redirect. BJAODN/delete clearly mean the same thing, but with a good number of suggestions that it be sent to BJAODN as well as being deleted. So I suggest that "no consensus" be defined as "be conservative".
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I agree with Smoddy as to how a consensus should be interpreted. Most of the votes in question were not "no consensus" but a consensus that at least narrowed the options.
I am not signing the original summary because I do not see an issue of abuse of the authority of an admin. I see an issue of differences of opinion as to how an admin ought to close VfDs. Would the admin in question be willing to refrain from closing VfDs, since he has a different concept of consensus on them than much of the Wikipedia community, but otherwise continue to perform other admin functions? In any case, I do not see an issue of abuse of the authority of an admin. Robert McClenon 19:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
VFD is binary; it has just 2 outcomes: Delete, and Not Delete.
People often say things like redirect, move, or merge, but all these options presuppose a Not Delete, and don't need admin privs anyway.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Mostly just expanding on smoddy's and Kim Bruning's statements:
Consensus to delete requires just that: consensus to delete. Not "more people wanted to delete than wanted any other option chosen", not "a majority wanted to delete". Expanding on "be conservative", anything that is restricted to users with admin capabilities should be done conservatively, because not everyone can undo it; when in doubt, don't. Any other position than "delete" is shorthand for "do not delete, and this is what I would like to see done with the material". Merges and redirects are actions that can be done and reverted by any editor; consensus for those actions can be established on VfD, but also on the Talk page, or anywhere else; someone closing a VfD is not obligated to do these things (though it's nice), only to make one call: delete or not delete. While there are a few decisions I might have called differently than Tony, I don't believe he is out of line here. We don't have a hard line on where to make that call because any explicit policy would just be gamed, and judgment required there too. I seldom agree with Tony, but I think none of his calls here are out of line.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I don't necessarily agree with all of Tony's calls in the above listed cases; in some of them I think he's outright wrong in his determination and should have decided the VfD some other way. That said, the harm from such mistakes is so minor as to be irrelevant. It is not even remotely critical that every deleteable article be deleted with all deliberate haste.
I think what this RFC really illustrates is the fundamental brokenness of VFD. There is little agreement even among regular admins as to how to interpret VFD votes and little agreement between editors as to what is or is not deletable. VFD creates animosity; it would be better for Wikipedia if borderline deletable articles were left intact without discussion than what is currently happening. I therefore suggest, without regard to whether Tony's conduct in these VFDs was inappropriate, that the entire VFD process is harmful to Wikipedia and should be discontinued immediately.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
OK, here is the deal. Wikipedia supposed to be a encyclopedia. A lot of people confuse wikipedia with an urban dictionary, a phone book, a list of type here etc... Such is noise rather than music. We also have "all mughty" groups of people such as the GNAA and people with dual personalities (or IP's) voting on VfD. So unless there is a cliff between votes (and there are lots of votes rather than lets say 4) it generaly qualifies to be "unresolved". Bear in mind some people vote because of their POV rather than how they feel about the significance of the material. If you think something is noise why dont you speedie it. If it isnt speedieable it shouldnt be VfDable. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a poorly-written RfC. Reading it, I had no idea what Tony Sidaway actually did to violate the intent of other Wikipedians, & had to ask on the Talk page for these pertinent specifics. And even then, one of the authors of this RfC wrote a response directed to me, aparently to explain this issue -- yet written as if everyone who read it knew precisely what Tony was alleged to have done.
(I guess their complaint is that Tony Sidaway does not delete articles other people believe should be deleted -- but after having another look at the Talk page, it seems to be over how he interprets votes that aren't marked "Keep" or "Delete". A good RfC would have clearly defined the issue, & not force those of us who aren't regulars in the VfD forum to hazard guesses.)
As a result, this entire RfC has become part of a gripefest over how the VfD process currently works, with many people complaining that it is broken on both here & other pages. This continuing creep of the matter of this dispute indicates to me that maybe the problem isn't with what Tony has done, but is with the VfD process. This then leads me, at least, to the next question: will censuring Tony make the VfD process work much better? If this won't, then the Wikipedia policy of assuming good faith towards all of its members should then exculpate Tony from criticism, because any problems he may have made could arguably have been due to problems with the process.
Maybe Tony ought to take a break from the thankless job of closing VfD cases for a couple of weeks, just to see if he is causing the problem here -- but only if his adversaries are willing to apologize should this prove he is not the cause.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I'm afraid I can't endorse the idea that Tony has specifically engaged in wrongdoing. In reviewing each of the disputed decisions and his responses, I can see his point of view. I *disagree* with some of his decisions (some of them quite strongly), but I understand his reasons for making them. My only real problem is that the Arab hacker decision marks the second time I have essentially been told that my votes are not desired and will not be counted on Wikipedia because I lack seniority (third, if you count the e-mail I was sent soon after I made my first few entries on the VfD page). "Seniority" is always going to be a relative thing - Even if I'm here a month, people who've been here a year will still see me as a "newbie," and will discount my opinion for lack of seniority. I realize this is Wikipedia policy, so there we are.
In truth, I don't even know if this opinion will count at all. Likely, it will not. But, for what it's worth, here it is:
I don't see as how Tony has specifically engaged in wrongdoing. I feel that much of this RfC represents a difference of opinion. Perhaps a *profound* difference of opinion, but a difference of opinion nonetheless.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I have had to change my opinion about Mr. Sidway as a result of a recent discussion with him over his new decision to make all VfD results "binary" in nature. He has decided that, as a result of this RfC, all future VfD results will be either "Keep" or "Delete", even if there are no "Keep" votes. He is dropping "no consensus" as a valid result.
Despite my earlier support for him at this RfC and my ealier respect for his opinion of "no consensus", I have come to realize that he is now acting out of spite against his detractors. To toss out any acknowledgement of "no consensus" is to disregard the policy of consensus.
I have stopped short of endorsing this RfC because it does not address the problem I now see in Mr. Sidaway's VfD closures.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
[10] - Tony Sidaway ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) deleted the deletedpage template, undeleted and unprotected the Monique deMoan article despite consensus on Votes for Undeletion to keep the article deleted. He did so without any discussion with any of the participants in the dispute and without discussion anywhere else. Zoe 00:13, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
He also unblocked NoPuzzleStranger ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was recreating the article in question who had been blocked for the behavior. Tony Sidaway did not discuss this unblocking with anyone. Zoe 00:19, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway has now undeleted Francesca Easthope despite unanimous keep deleted votes on VfU. It is apparently his policy to decide all VfD and VfU votes on his own, without any interest or concern for the votes or consensus of others. Zoe 05:32, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
I am the user who originally tagged the Francesca Easthope for a speedy. (As an aside I agree this was arguable and maybe a VfD would have been better; but I still think it was a reasonable call). When I saw the page re-appear and read Tony's comments that, paraphrasing him, 'we have to follow policy' my immediate reaction was "bureaucrat"! However, having read all the comments above and the way Tony has been jumped on for deleting articles, and now is jumped on for undeleting articles, then I changed my mind. I can certainly understand why he did what he did. I have no complaint on his taking Francesca Easthope through the full VfD process. Maybe we need a better policy for "nonsense but not gibberish" articles, but don't shoot Tony for that! -- Cje 14:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I am an outsider who ended up here after wondering what all the fuss was on Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/ExamDiff_(second_nomination). In particular, I was puzzled why Tony was being accused of "attacking people who disagree with you" when, at least in the context of the ExamDiff RfD, it looked much more like it was Tony who was being attacked. Clearly there was some backstory here.
I think a big part of the problem is that we are having, by proxy, a debate on the huge issue of inclusivity. There are lots of people who feel strongly (and with good reason) that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and that articles on frivolous or non-notable topics detract from that goal and should be deleted. But there are also lots of people who feel equally strongly that information is good, and that we should not delete well-written, informative articles merely because they are on topics which a conventional encyclopedia would not have covered. (Disclaimer: with the poles stated that way, I lean towards the latter, I guess more inclusionist stance, although there are plenty of articles I'm in favor of deleting. I've started several VfD's myself, and yesterday I think my votes on other VfD's were something like 9/10 Delete.)
From what I can see here, most of Tony's VfD closures have been proper, though colored by his own "when in doubt, keep" preference -- a preference which of course is supported by the very same guidelines he's trying to follow.
If the real problem is that Wikipedia in its current state is more inclusionist than it should be, that's a problem eminently worthy of debate, but the debate shouldn't happen down here in a series of attacks on an administrator who is merely -- and I do think honestly -- trying to comply with the current set of guidelines and the opinions as expressed by the current set of VfD voters.
Also, I suspect that these labels "inclusionist" and "deletionist" and "mergist" are at risk of becoming prejudicial. We should all be working for the best Wikipedia possible (with, certainly, spirited debates along the side about what constitutes "best"). But if I've identified myself as an X-ist and I've labeled you as one of those disreputable Y-ists such that I automatically discount everything you say and do, that's not helpful.
Steve Summit ( talk) 15:20, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this sysop and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 15:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC).
Please note: This template is for listing disputes about actions that are limited to administrators only, specifically these actions:
For all other matters (such as edit wars and page moves), please use the template at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Example user.
This adminstrator has subverted the intent of VfD on numerous occasions. While the
Deletion guidelines for administrators are deliberately vague, it does urge "attempting to be as impartial as is possible." This administrator has had considerable input (see below) regarding this, but has continued to stretch closure votes like
Silly Putty picking up
Spider-Man.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 15:53, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Um, yeah. The template has summary in both these spots?
Tony's actions in the midst of these discussion:
My edit counts and date of first edits for this vote:
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the sysop whose actions are disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the sysop's actions did not violate policy. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.
When I close a VfD, I want to give the editors maximum control over what happens next; as VfD closer I have to make the important decision--whether or not to delete, but if I don't get a consensus to merge I don't think I need to consider whether to merge or keep--leave it to the editors. Sometimes I unilaterally, as an editor, take that action myself, but I do so after closing and I make a note saying that I am being bold; my action is reversible and is not part of the closing process. For instance if there is a substantial vote to merge but this doesn't amount to consensus, then I may perform the merge myself. I do not, however, pretend that I can read into the vote that which is not there.
If there really is a consensus vote to merge, however, I will perform the merge as part of the VfD closure, and enforce it as part of Wikipedia policy if attempts are made to reverse it (this has happened, Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Jim_Robinson, merged on a 75% consensus, confirmed by subsequent vote in Wikipedia:Votes for Undeletion.
It is not the closer's job to second-guess the disposition of an article--a VfD discussion is not required for a page move, a merge, a redirect or indeed anything other than a deletion. Any editor can perform these tasks if there is a consensus for them. If a consensus emerges during VfD (see above) it should be performed as part of the closing. It should not be manufactured by the closer.
Smoddy suggests "I would define the result of a "no consensus" as being "do the most conservative option". The VfD guide agrees, and so do I. The most conservative option a VfD closer can make, if there is no consensus to delete, is to leave what happens next up to the editors.
As far as I'm aware, there is no limitation on the power of an administrator to undelete an article.
I hereby absolutely refute the false, unsupported and malicious allegation by R. Fiend that I count socks and anons selectively "when it suits me." This refutation was added to the response after the thirteenth endorsement.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.
I signed above as well. Many of these VfDs are entirely divided between "merge" and "delete", "redirect" and "delete", or "BJAODN" and "delete". Yet, when a decision cannot be made between two votes which are clearly not keeps, "keep" is the effective outcome. This is all very well in a vote between "delete" and "keep". But in a vote where the options are clearly opposed to keeping the article in its current state, this is senseless. I would define the result of a "no consensus" as being "do the most conservative option". So merge/delete becomes merge, redirect/delete becomes redirect. BJAODN/delete clearly mean the same thing, but with a good number of suggestions that it be sent to BJAODN as well as being deleted. So I suggest that "no consensus" be defined as "be conservative".
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I agree with Smoddy as to how a consensus should be interpreted. Most of the votes in question were not "no consensus" but a consensus that at least narrowed the options.
I am not signing the original summary because I do not see an issue of abuse of the authority of an admin. I see an issue of differences of opinion as to how an admin ought to close VfDs. Would the admin in question be willing to refrain from closing VfDs, since he has a different concept of consensus on them than much of the Wikipedia community, but otherwise continue to perform other admin functions? In any case, I do not see an issue of abuse of the authority of an admin. Robert McClenon 19:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
VFD is binary; it has just 2 outcomes: Delete, and Not Delete.
People often say things like redirect, move, or merge, but all these options presuppose a Not Delete, and don't need admin privs anyway.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Mostly just expanding on smoddy's and Kim Bruning's statements:
Consensus to delete requires just that: consensus to delete. Not "more people wanted to delete than wanted any other option chosen", not "a majority wanted to delete". Expanding on "be conservative", anything that is restricted to users with admin capabilities should be done conservatively, because not everyone can undo it; when in doubt, don't. Any other position than "delete" is shorthand for "do not delete, and this is what I would like to see done with the material". Merges and redirects are actions that can be done and reverted by any editor; consensus for those actions can be established on VfD, but also on the Talk page, or anywhere else; someone closing a VfD is not obligated to do these things (though it's nice), only to make one call: delete or not delete. While there are a few decisions I might have called differently than Tony, I don't believe he is out of line here. We don't have a hard line on where to make that call because any explicit policy would just be gamed, and judgment required there too. I seldom agree with Tony, but I think none of his calls here are out of line.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I don't necessarily agree with all of Tony's calls in the above listed cases; in some of them I think he's outright wrong in his determination and should have decided the VfD some other way. That said, the harm from such mistakes is so minor as to be irrelevant. It is not even remotely critical that every deleteable article be deleted with all deliberate haste.
I think what this RFC really illustrates is the fundamental brokenness of VFD. There is little agreement even among regular admins as to how to interpret VFD votes and little agreement between editors as to what is or is not deletable. VFD creates animosity; it would be better for Wikipedia if borderline deletable articles were left intact without discussion than what is currently happening. I therefore suggest, without regard to whether Tony's conduct in these VFDs was inappropriate, that the entire VFD process is harmful to Wikipedia and should be discontinued immediately.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
OK, here is the deal. Wikipedia supposed to be a encyclopedia. A lot of people confuse wikipedia with an urban dictionary, a phone book, a list of type here etc... Such is noise rather than music. We also have "all mughty" groups of people such as the GNAA and people with dual personalities (or IP's) voting on VfD. So unless there is a cliff between votes (and there are lots of votes rather than lets say 4) it generaly qualifies to be "unresolved". Bear in mind some people vote because of their POV rather than how they feel about the significance of the material. If you think something is noise why dont you speedie it. If it isnt speedieable it shouldnt be VfDable. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a poorly-written RfC. Reading it, I had no idea what Tony Sidaway actually did to violate the intent of other Wikipedians, & had to ask on the Talk page for these pertinent specifics. And even then, one of the authors of this RfC wrote a response directed to me, aparently to explain this issue -- yet written as if everyone who read it knew precisely what Tony was alleged to have done.
(I guess their complaint is that Tony Sidaway does not delete articles other people believe should be deleted -- but after having another look at the Talk page, it seems to be over how he interprets votes that aren't marked "Keep" or "Delete". A good RfC would have clearly defined the issue, & not force those of us who aren't regulars in the VfD forum to hazard guesses.)
As a result, this entire RfC has become part of a gripefest over how the VfD process currently works, with many people complaining that it is broken on both here & other pages. This continuing creep of the matter of this dispute indicates to me that maybe the problem isn't with what Tony has done, but is with the VfD process. This then leads me, at least, to the next question: will censuring Tony make the VfD process work much better? If this won't, then the Wikipedia policy of assuming good faith towards all of its members should then exculpate Tony from criticism, because any problems he may have made could arguably have been due to problems with the process.
Maybe Tony ought to take a break from the thankless job of closing VfD cases for a couple of weeks, just to see if he is causing the problem here -- but only if his adversaries are willing to apologize should this prove he is not the cause.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I'm afraid I can't endorse the idea that Tony has specifically engaged in wrongdoing. In reviewing each of the disputed decisions and his responses, I can see his point of view. I *disagree* with some of his decisions (some of them quite strongly), but I understand his reasons for making them. My only real problem is that the Arab hacker decision marks the second time I have essentially been told that my votes are not desired and will not be counted on Wikipedia because I lack seniority (third, if you count the e-mail I was sent soon after I made my first few entries on the VfD page). "Seniority" is always going to be a relative thing - Even if I'm here a month, people who've been here a year will still see me as a "newbie," and will discount my opinion for lack of seniority. I realize this is Wikipedia policy, so there we are.
In truth, I don't even know if this opinion will count at all. Likely, it will not. But, for what it's worth, here it is:
I don't see as how Tony has specifically engaged in wrongdoing. I feel that much of this RfC represents a difference of opinion. Perhaps a *profound* difference of opinion, but a difference of opinion nonetheless.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I have had to change my opinion about Mr. Sidway as a result of a recent discussion with him over his new decision to make all VfD results "binary" in nature. He has decided that, as a result of this RfC, all future VfD results will be either "Keep" or "Delete", even if there are no "Keep" votes. He is dropping "no consensus" as a valid result.
Despite my earlier support for him at this RfC and my ealier respect for his opinion of "no consensus", I have come to realize that he is now acting out of spite against his detractors. To toss out any acknowledgement of "no consensus" is to disregard the policy of consensus.
I have stopped short of endorsing this RfC because it does not address the problem I now see in Mr. Sidaway's VfD closures.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
[10] - Tony Sidaway ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) deleted the deletedpage template, undeleted and unprotected the Monique deMoan article despite consensus on Votes for Undeletion to keep the article deleted. He did so without any discussion with any of the participants in the dispute and without discussion anywhere else. Zoe 00:13, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
He also unblocked NoPuzzleStranger ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was recreating the article in question who had been blocked for the behavior. Tony Sidaway did not discuss this unblocking with anyone. Zoe 00:19, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway has now undeleted Francesca Easthope despite unanimous keep deleted votes on VfU. It is apparently his policy to decide all VfD and VfU votes on his own, without any interest or concern for the votes or consensus of others. Zoe 05:32, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
I am the user who originally tagged the Francesca Easthope for a speedy. (As an aside I agree this was arguable and maybe a VfD would have been better; but I still think it was a reasonable call). When I saw the page re-appear and read Tony's comments that, paraphrasing him, 'we have to follow policy' my immediate reaction was "bureaucrat"! However, having read all the comments above and the way Tony has been jumped on for deleting articles, and now is jumped on for undeleting articles, then I changed my mind. I can certainly understand why he did what he did. I have no complaint on his taking Francesca Easthope through the full VfD process. Maybe we need a better policy for "nonsense but not gibberish" articles, but don't shoot Tony for that! -- Cje 14:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I am an outsider who ended up here after wondering what all the fuss was on Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/ExamDiff_(second_nomination). In particular, I was puzzled why Tony was being accused of "attacking people who disagree with you" when, at least in the context of the ExamDiff RfD, it looked much more like it was Tony who was being attacked. Clearly there was some backstory here.
I think a big part of the problem is that we are having, by proxy, a debate on the huge issue of inclusivity. There are lots of people who feel strongly (and with good reason) that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and that articles on frivolous or non-notable topics detract from that goal and should be deleted. But there are also lots of people who feel equally strongly that information is good, and that we should not delete well-written, informative articles merely because they are on topics which a conventional encyclopedia would not have covered. (Disclaimer: with the poles stated that way, I lean towards the latter, I guess more inclusionist stance, although there are plenty of articles I'm in favor of deleting. I've started several VfD's myself, and yesterday I think my votes on other VfD's were something like 9/10 Delete.)
From what I can see here, most of Tony's VfD closures have been proper, though colored by his own "when in doubt, keep" preference -- a preference which of course is supported by the very same guidelines he's trying to follow.
If the real problem is that Wikipedia in its current state is more inclusionist than it should be, that's a problem eminently worthy of debate, but the debate shouldn't happen down here in a series of attacks on an administrator who is merely -- and I do think honestly -- trying to comply with the current set of guidelines and the opinions as expressed by the current set of VfD voters.
Also, I suspect that these labels "inclusionist" and "deletionist" and "mergist" are at risk of becoming prejudicial. We should all be working for the best Wikipedia possible (with, certainly, spirited debates along the side about what constitutes "best"). But if I've identified myself as an X-ist and I've labeled you as one of those disreputable Y-ists such that I automatically discount everything you say and do, that's not helpful.
Steve Summit ( talk) 15:20, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.