(transferred from Conflicts between users) User:Richardchilton has admitted these are all the same person
For reference, I'm adding a list of all accounts which are believed by me to be his:
-- V V 20:59, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
However, he has announced on RfA and also on IRC his waning interest in this "crappy old" Wiki, so maybe the communist POV, vandalism, revert wars, and personal attacks may finally wind down a bit. See User:Richardchilton for his latest statement of intent (to continue attacking Wikipedia, but not as much). -- V V 05:24, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Note: Hanpuk explicitly denied being one of the above; he appears to have conceded his identity since ( User:Maximus_Rex/asdf).
-- V V 05:24, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
(Removing the list. 172 14:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC))
This is NOT how you deal with users who create sock puppets. You need far more evidence than your hunch and intuition. I have some firsthand knowledge of this matter. I supported the enforcement of a hard ban on a user with numerous accounts in August 2003. Note that I say "enforcement." There is nothing on record suggesting that any the accounts listed above has been banned.
User:Evercat knows the policies and procedures for sufficiently demonstrating that multiple sock puppets are the same user. He knows better than I do, so why not ask him about all this if my statements aren't enough.
From my knowledge, you have to bring forward extensive internal evidence, such as similar interests, habits, and prose. A habit of posting a quick series of multiple small edits, without using the preview button, e.g., is noted by comparing the UserContributions of the users in question. Another habit could be, e.g., evidence of similar tendency towards excessive use of headers and sub-headers.
Tacit admissions by the user of the practice are brought forward, requiring evidence in the form of http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:… links suggesting a pattern. Evidence of physical location seems to carry the most weight. For this you need evidence of the IP address.
Statistical evidence has been brought forward in these kinds of cases as well. Users with backgrounds in computer programming have created lists of pages edited by the user in question and the series of alleged sock puppet accounts. Control figures are also necessary. A user known NOT to be any of the users in questions is used as a "control" who is known not to be the creator of the sock puppets. This was done in the 8/03 case that I mentioned, posing doubts as to whether this was even statistically useful. It only seemed to confirmed a shared interest in a single topic. Statistics from Wikipedia:Wikipedians by number of edits are used as well. Evidence of usage level correlations can be seen if this inquiry is done right. Users have also searched for patterns among edits to pages by the user in question.
User:Evercat backs up his conclusions with no bullshit hard evidence. I'm not saying that I believe or disbelieve the claims made by VeryVerily regarding this "one Communist user." It's obvious, however, that he has failed to meet the usual scientific standards necessary for making these kinds of claims on WP in the past. 172 14:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This user is making useful contributions to some articles, but also is making clearly wrong and destructive edits. For a clearcut case, consider this one. Also obvious is POV is added, such as in this case, which came initially with the mere edit summary "reworded", and which I have had to revert twice. Many of his edits, including his erasure of accounts of communist atrocities and really weird ones, have been reverted by others as well as myself; some have not as of now (e.g., Pol Pot). As another example, his changes to Wilhelm Reich promote the crackpot theory of "Orgone Energy" from "mystic pseudoscience" to a "scientific study" (with a parenthetical about some dissenters). So I feel this user's good contributions are somewhat negated by the need for policing, and that, troublingly, the potentially good contributions will need to be fact-checked (and corrected, as was done in Socialism by others). -- V V 00:50, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
User:HectorRodriguez is deleting every single occurrence of the term "terrorist" and "terrorism" from every single article surrounding the 9/11 attacks. His anti-US rants on Talk pages make all of his edits suspect. RickK 06:26, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
He is clearly a vandal. See this. -- V V 07:25, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
RickK's behavior has been appalling. Hector is a new user who needs to be briefed on policy and receive friendly advice for avoiding flame wars on controversial subjects. Instead, RickK has been browbeating him for his supposed political beliefs. In some instances, RickK did revert inappropriate edits by Hector, such as the paragraph on the 9/11/73 coup in Chile, which was filled with loaded language and perhaps off-topic. But in the process, he was browbeating, calling him "anti-American, pro-Soviet, and pro-al Qaeda vanal," among other choice insults, and harassing him for supposedly holding these views. Instead, RickK, as an admin, should have explained why loaded language and going off topic are violations of policy. More disturbingly, RickK was harassing Hector and automatically reverting his changes even when Hector opted for formal, encyclopedic definition in the intro paragraph of the East Germany country page. See my comments on the talk page for more details.
IMHO, the only RickK reason is able to get away with such gross abuse (singling out a new user for harassment and auto-revert because he disagrees with him) is the unpopularity of Hector's views. This spectacle makes it patently clear that all Wiki lacks adequate safeguards to protect dissenting users, even when they're acting within the realm of policy constraints.
Hector does need to work on NPOV, but we can give him the benefit of the doubt as a new user prone to make innocuous mistakes. Perhaps Angela, who's probably the polite and professional admin I can think of, could be the one to council him? It certainly can't be RickK. 172 18:46, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't believe Hector is a new user; he knows the ropes far too well. His behavior is clearly that of a vandal, as my example above showed. He is also blanking 9/11 redirect pages now. RickK made the right call, and also Hector's views are far from unpopular round these parts. -- V V 22:22, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hector is getting to be a real problem. The vote that he refers above to was in regard to the existance of the word "terrorist" in the title, rather than in the article. Furthermore, he seems intent on blanking out articles like September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack/Misinformation and rumors, presumably because they carry that verbotten word "Terrorist". He did this to the misinformation page the other day, and I thought it an accident. Now I am not so certain. Arno 07:31, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, now that you all have allowed HectorRodgriquez to claim that the attacks on September 11 were not terrorism, he's now going on to whitewash the entire history of every Communist movement. Apparently the deaths of millions of Cambodians were caused by the West, and not by the Khmer Rouge (excuse me, to him, they're the Communist Party of Cambodia, and only the capitalist press ever called them the Khmer Rouge.) He has attempted to make every reference to the Viet Cong change to National Liberation Front of Vietnam. He has engaged in several revert wars today, which have required the protection of several pages. RickK 00:46, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hector is adding blatantly POV additions to such articles as Panama and Manuel Noriega, and my attempts at reverting them were sabotaged by Wik, who is now stalking me instead of Anthony DiPierro. RickK 04:34, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty convinced that the set { Richardchilton, Lancemurdoch, HectorRodriguez} has cardinality less than three, and possibly one. Their obsessions seem identical: e.g., [1] [2], [3] [4] [5] [6], [7] [8], even [9] [10]. It seemed pretty clear to me that neither Hector nor Richard were new users upon their putative arrival, and now Richard has started a move war on Khmer Rouge that has resulted in that page being protected, as well as numerous other POV additions. -- V V 20:45, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Have you tried to solve the underlying political dispute? Secretlondon 20:53, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Many users have tried talking to him/them. Look at the histories of the articles and talk pages in question if you believe your seeming implication that it is just me. I'm guessing that you haven't, based on this question. -- V V 21:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do you presume they are all the same person? I *know* you have very strong opinions on a lot of US topics - and so do they. They also seem to feel victimised, and I know that some users from your side of the fence *also* feel victimised. Some see a conservative bias, some see a "liberal" (as in US liberal) bias. I'm annoyed to see new users with strong POV instantly put on this page, by others with equally strong (but opposite POV). My way of dealing with is it not to edit pages relating to US politics. That may be cowardice on my part. We need to find a way of working through this which means that *all sides* need to compromise. Secretlondon 22:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Even if Richard is Lance and Hector, so what!!!???? Lance and Hector weren't banned users. Behind the façade of all this bickering, Richard is being singled out for holding some beliefs that users who keep hounding him despise. I respect most of his critics (VV, e.g., is fair-minded and committed to NPOV), and I do believe that they're sincerely trying to act fairly. However, they need to be altered to the fact that they have a starkly different worldview that makes cooperating and communicating with this user a special challenge.
Mediators need to promote mutual understanding here, rather than continuing to chase this ideological outcast away. We need to have a greater appreciation of democratic pluralism in both rhetoric and action. Only when the persecution of this user stops, will he have the incentives to play by the rules of Wiki. If someone can foster constructive dialogue for a change, Hector has the potential to become an especially valuable contributor. He'd bring to the forefront of attention subjects that are customarily overlooked on Wiki (e.g., Sans-culottes). He'd introduce a fresh take on things and would broaden the horizons of the community of users as a whole. We should welcome the fact that this user brings a starkly different perspective to the site. We ought to welcome diversity of ideas and a multiplicity of perspectives. After all, this is the only way to write a world as diverse as it is. So please, try talking with him for a change, rather than rushing to the House Un-American Activities Committee (I mean the Wikipedia:Conflicts between users users page). 172 02:18, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
BTW, don't accuse me of a leftist agenda. Go to the October 2003 mailing lists, e.g., and note my ardent opposition to banning User:RK and my use of the same reasoning. Recently, I also remarked to User:G-Man that we desperately lack elderly contributors (giving us Gen-X and Baby Boom biases). Furthermore, I also noted the need to promote more non-Western admins a while ago. I'd also like to mediate an accord pledging mutual respect of differences of thought between Richard and his critics (VV, Jamesday, RickK, Robert Merkel, Tim Starling, and Ed Poor). 172 02:18, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Based on everything, a hard ban of Lance/Richard/Hector seems to me to be in order. We now have plenty of evidence based on behavior and the IRC logs of his trolling and baiting. Furthermore, he left a long manifesto on User:Richardchilton declaring his intentions to switch IP addresses constantly, delete text from Wikipedia he doesn't like, and create new user names to avoid detection; in fact, he states he has been successful at this. He says, "I felt the need to go by the NPOV before, but now I don't, and I am a lot more successful in modifying Wikipedia now", and refers to the managers of Wikipedia as "the enemy", and admins as "commissars". He clearly does not intend to partake in the project as intended, and states that his mass deletions are being reverted, but not consistently. Implementing a hard ban would authorize anyone to block/revert him at any time. In the event that someone such as 172 succeeds in the below-noted hope of rehabilitating him, L/R/H can do what Lir did and state his intentions privately to Jimbo or whoever. For now, I think the course is clear. A suspicious "new user", Venceremos, has appeared with a short edit history but a lot of knowledge of Wikipedia, and there may be others. It's not proven yet he's the same person, of course, but note that nearly all his edits (most initially deletions of large sections of articles) have been reverted by someone. -- V V 08:00, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC), added (most...) 08:43
(transferred from Conflicts between users) User:Richardchilton has admitted these are all the same person
For reference, I'm adding a list of all accounts which are believed by me to be his:
-- V V 20:59, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
However, he has announced on RfA and also on IRC his waning interest in this "crappy old" Wiki, so maybe the communist POV, vandalism, revert wars, and personal attacks may finally wind down a bit. See User:Richardchilton for his latest statement of intent (to continue attacking Wikipedia, but not as much). -- V V 05:24, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Note: Hanpuk explicitly denied being one of the above; he appears to have conceded his identity since ( User:Maximus_Rex/asdf).
-- V V 05:24, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
(Removing the list. 172 14:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC))
This is NOT how you deal with users who create sock puppets. You need far more evidence than your hunch and intuition. I have some firsthand knowledge of this matter. I supported the enforcement of a hard ban on a user with numerous accounts in August 2003. Note that I say "enforcement." There is nothing on record suggesting that any the accounts listed above has been banned.
User:Evercat knows the policies and procedures for sufficiently demonstrating that multiple sock puppets are the same user. He knows better than I do, so why not ask him about all this if my statements aren't enough.
From my knowledge, you have to bring forward extensive internal evidence, such as similar interests, habits, and prose. A habit of posting a quick series of multiple small edits, without using the preview button, e.g., is noted by comparing the UserContributions of the users in question. Another habit could be, e.g., evidence of similar tendency towards excessive use of headers and sub-headers.
Tacit admissions by the user of the practice are brought forward, requiring evidence in the form of http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:… links suggesting a pattern. Evidence of physical location seems to carry the most weight. For this you need evidence of the IP address.
Statistical evidence has been brought forward in these kinds of cases as well. Users with backgrounds in computer programming have created lists of pages edited by the user in question and the series of alleged sock puppet accounts. Control figures are also necessary. A user known NOT to be any of the users in questions is used as a "control" who is known not to be the creator of the sock puppets. This was done in the 8/03 case that I mentioned, posing doubts as to whether this was even statistically useful. It only seemed to confirmed a shared interest in a single topic. Statistics from Wikipedia:Wikipedians by number of edits are used as well. Evidence of usage level correlations can be seen if this inquiry is done right. Users have also searched for patterns among edits to pages by the user in question.
User:Evercat backs up his conclusions with no bullshit hard evidence. I'm not saying that I believe or disbelieve the claims made by VeryVerily regarding this "one Communist user." It's obvious, however, that he has failed to meet the usual scientific standards necessary for making these kinds of claims on WP in the past. 172 14:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This user is making useful contributions to some articles, but also is making clearly wrong and destructive edits. For a clearcut case, consider this one. Also obvious is POV is added, such as in this case, which came initially with the mere edit summary "reworded", and which I have had to revert twice. Many of his edits, including his erasure of accounts of communist atrocities and really weird ones, have been reverted by others as well as myself; some have not as of now (e.g., Pol Pot). As another example, his changes to Wilhelm Reich promote the crackpot theory of "Orgone Energy" from "mystic pseudoscience" to a "scientific study" (with a parenthetical about some dissenters). So I feel this user's good contributions are somewhat negated by the need for policing, and that, troublingly, the potentially good contributions will need to be fact-checked (and corrected, as was done in Socialism by others). -- V V 00:50, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
User:HectorRodriguez is deleting every single occurrence of the term "terrorist" and "terrorism" from every single article surrounding the 9/11 attacks. His anti-US rants on Talk pages make all of his edits suspect. RickK 06:26, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
He is clearly a vandal. See this. -- V V 07:25, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
RickK's behavior has been appalling. Hector is a new user who needs to be briefed on policy and receive friendly advice for avoiding flame wars on controversial subjects. Instead, RickK has been browbeating him for his supposed political beliefs. In some instances, RickK did revert inappropriate edits by Hector, such as the paragraph on the 9/11/73 coup in Chile, which was filled with loaded language and perhaps off-topic. But in the process, he was browbeating, calling him "anti-American, pro-Soviet, and pro-al Qaeda vanal," among other choice insults, and harassing him for supposedly holding these views. Instead, RickK, as an admin, should have explained why loaded language and going off topic are violations of policy. More disturbingly, RickK was harassing Hector and automatically reverting his changes even when Hector opted for formal, encyclopedic definition in the intro paragraph of the East Germany country page. See my comments on the talk page for more details.
IMHO, the only RickK reason is able to get away with such gross abuse (singling out a new user for harassment and auto-revert because he disagrees with him) is the unpopularity of Hector's views. This spectacle makes it patently clear that all Wiki lacks adequate safeguards to protect dissenting users, even when they're acting within the realm of policy constraints.
Hector does need to work on NPOV, but we can give him the benefit of the doubt as a new user prone to make innocuous mistakes. Perhaps Angela, who's probably the polite and professional admin I can think of, could be the one to council him? It certainly can't be RickK. 172 18:46, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't believe Hector is a new user; he knows the ropes far too well. His behavior is clearly that of a vandal, as my example above showed. He is also blanking 9/11 redirect pages now. RickK made the right call, and also Hector's views are far from unpopular round these parts. -- V V 22:22, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hector is getting to be a real problem. The vote that he refers above to was in regard to the existance of the word "terrorist" in the title, rather than in the article. Furthermore, he seems intent on blanking out articles like September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack/Misinformation and rumors, presumably because they carry that verbotten word "Terrorist". He did this to the misinformation page the other day, and I thought it an accident. Now I am not so certain. Arno 07:31, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, now that you all have allowed HectorRodgriquez to claim that the attacks on September 11 were not terrorism, he's now going on to whitewash the entire history of every Communist movement. Apparently the deaths of millions of Cambodians were caused by the West, and not by the Khmer Rouge (excuse me, to him, they're the Communist Party of Cambodia, and only the capitalist press ever called them the Khmer Rouge.) He has attempted to make every reference to the Viet Cong change to National Liberation Front of Vietnam. He has engaged in several revert wars today, which have required the protection of several pages. RickK 00:46, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hector is adding blatantly POV additions to such articles as Panama and Manuel Noriega, and my attempts at reverting them were sabotaged by Wik, who is now stalking me instead of Anthony DiPierro. RickK 04:34, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty convinced that the set { Richardchilton, Lancemurdoch, HectorRodriguez} has cardinality less than three, and possibly one. Their obsessions seem identical: e.g., [1] [2], [3] [4] [5] [6], [7] [8], even [9] [10]. It seemed pretty clear to me that neither Hector nor Richard were new users upon their putative arrival, and now Richard has started a move war on Khmer Rouge that has resulted in that page being protected, as well as numerous other POV additions. -- V V 20:45, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Have you tried to solve the underlying political dispute? Secretlondon 20:53, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Many users have tried talking to him/them. Look at the histories of the articles and talk pages in question if you believe your seeming implication that it is just me. I'm guessing that you haven't, based on this question. -- V V 21:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do you presume they are all the same person? I *know* you have very strong opinions on a lot of US topics - and so do they. They also seem to feel victimised, and I know that some users from your side of the fence *also* feel victimised. Some see a conservative bias, some see a "liberal" (as in US liberal) bias. I'm annoyed to see new users with strong POV instantly put on this page, by others with equally strong (but opposite POV). My way of dealing with is it not to edit pages relating to US politics. That may be cowardice on my part. We need to find a way of working through this which means that *all sides* need to compromise. Secretlondon 22:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Even if Richard is Lance and Hector, so what!!!???? Lance and Hector weren't banned users. Behind the façade of all this bickering, Richard is being singled out for holding some beliefs that users who keep hounding him despise. I respect most of his critics (VV, e.g., is fair-minded and committed to NPOV), and I do believe that they're sincerely trying to act fairly. However, they need to be altered to the fact that they have a starkly different worldview that makes cooperating and communicating with this user a special challenge.
Mediators need to promote mutual understanding here, rather than continuing to chase this ideological outcast away. We need to have a greater appreciation of democratic pluralism in both rhetoric and action. Only when the persecution of this user stops, will he have the incentives to play by the rules of Wiki. If someone can foster constructive dialogue for a change, Hector has the potential to become an especially valuable contributor. He'd bring to the forefront of attention subjects that are customarily overlooked on Wiki (e.g., Sans-culottes). He'd introduce a fresh take on things and would broaden the horizons of the community of users as a whole. We should welcome the fact that this user brings a starkly different perspective to the site. We ought to welcome diversity of ideas and a multiplicity of perspectives. After all, this is the only way to write a world as diverse as it is. So please, try talking with him for a change, rather than rushing to the House Un-American Activities Committee (I mean the Wikipedia:Conflicts between users users page). 172 02:18, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
BTW, don't accuse me of a leftist agenda. Go to the October 2003 mailing lists, e.g., and note my ardent opposition to banning User:RK and my use of the same reasoning. Recently, I also remarked to User:G-Man that we desperately lack elderly contributors (giving us Gen-X and Baby Boom biases). Furthermore, I also noted the need to promote more non-Western admins a while ago. I'd also like to mediate an accord pledging mutual respect of differences of thought between Richard and his critics (VV, Jamesday, RickK, Robert Merkel, Tim Starling, and Ed Poor). 172 02:18, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Based on everything, a hard ban of Lance/Richard/Hector seems to me to be in order. We now have plenty of evidence based on behavior and the IRC logs of his trolling and baiting. Furthermore, he left a long manifesto on User:Richardchilton declaring his intentions to switch IP addresses constantly, delete text from Wikipedia he doesn't like, and create new user names to avoid detection; in fact, he states he has been successful at this. He says, "I felt the need to go by the NPOV before, but now I don't, and I am a lot more successful in modifying Wikipedia now", and refers to the managers of Wikipedia as "the enemy", and admins as "commissars". He clearly does not intend to partake in the project as intended, and states that his mass deletions are being reverted, but not consistently. Implementing a hard ban would authorize anyone to block/revert him at any time. In the event that someone such as 172 succeeds in the below-noted hope of rehabilitating him, L/R/H can do what Lir did and state his intentions privately to Jimbo or whoever. For now, I think the course is clear. A suspicious "new user", Venceremos, has appeared with a short edit history but a lot of knowledge of Wikipedia, and there may be others. It's not proven yet he's the same person, of course, but note that nearly all his edits (most initially deletions of large sections of articles) have been reverted by someone. -- V V 08:00, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC), added (most...) 08:43