User:Plautus satire (
contributions) (
talk)
User:24.79.3.230 (
contributions) (
talk)
This page was created as per steps 2 and 3 of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution
Anyone posting here should first see Wikiquette, Talk:Albert Einstein, Talk:Black hole, Talk:Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, User talk:Plautus satire, and User:Silsor/fanmail (private email correspondence containing profanity). Evercat compiled a list of disputes at User:Evercat/Plautus. Raul654 is compiling a timeline at User:Raul654/Plautus.
As a side note, Plautus Satire has previously engaged in the same behaviour in other Internet forums, including the Yahoo! Apollo-hoax group and mailing list, from which he was banned in January for abusive behaviour. He has also engaged in abusive behaviour on the apollohoax.com forums [1] in January.
Plautus satire has proven himself to be incorrigible. Despite numerous attempts to reason with him, he has refused to stop his bad behavior. When banned, he harassed silsor to the point of being criminal. When banned by me, he spammed every administrator to try to get unbanned. As soon as he was unbanned, he want right back to doing what he was (in part) banned for - reverting talk pages. →Raul654 05:08, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
What Raul654 is now choosing to call "bad behaviour" is the deletion of ones own extraneous, superfluous and redundant edits, which is sanctioned by the wikiquette guidelines. - Plautus satire 06:30, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC) (Not only sanctioned, but encouraged. And many users practice arbitrary deletion of their talk pages, for example Evercat. - Plautus satire 16:46, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC))
I think what you mean to say is I deleted extraneous and superfluous threads that I myself started, a practice which is condoned in the wikiquette guidelines and for which you have sought to have me banned permanently. All I can say is I am very thankful that you are not the supreme dictator of wikipedia. - Plautus satire 07:01, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I can't agree with either of the poll options set up below ("he's bad and should be banned" and "he's good and should stay"). He is not a vandal and I can't determine whether he is just a good troll without analysis that I am unwilling to do right now not a troll, just a conspiracy theorist. On the other hand he is not quite a useful contributor; the articles he edited (
Watercress,
Garden cress,
Phytochemical) with non-crank material were apparently only astroturfing to build his "legitimate user" profile immediately after he was unblocked.
In my opinion: Plautus Satire needs a time out in the corner. He has an awful temper and thinks everybody is out to get him; combined with his fringe theories on some topics and insistence on getting his way he'll end up as another banned Khranus unless he can control himself. I want to see how Plautus Satire handles being a regular contributor now that he has encountered NPOV policy, social etiquette and community standards. silsor 06:08, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
I will add my voice to Silsor's... this issue should be dropped for now. Plautus was banned rather soon after arriving, especially considering that nothing he did (as far I can tell) was simple vandalism. He had (and still has) some bad habits, but that's not surprising for a newcomer, and can be corrected. He also has a bad temper, but if he can control that, he can still be a useful contributor. Isomorphic 06:54, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that minutes before Plautus offered his humble and sincere apology he also added a few new things to the form and structure of this page? I guess I'm not as optimistic as you guys are about this new leaf that Plautus is promising to turn over, especially considering that he's made similar promises in the past week and broke them within minutes, literally. I think getting blocked three of four times in as many days and directly contributing to at least 5 pages being locked is just a warm up. I hope I'm wrong, it won't be the first time. And Silsor, you must have the patience of a saint or especially thick skin to not be a little angry with the very rough treatment you got from Plautus in those emails. -- SheikYerBooty 07:10, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Plautus satire's first edit to the Columbia article appears to be this edit from 24.79.3.230 ( contributions), which includes as part of the edit a link to his http: //www.geocities.com/plautus_satire/columbia/ site (remove the extra space in the link, note that it may be unavailable at times due to bandwidth consumption). Briefly, it rewrote the Shuttle accident article to suggest that the US government shot down the shuttle to replace it with a different space plane which would be better able to work with the ISS orbital "weapons platform". This is consistent with the views he's expressed elsewhere, so it seems safe to assume that it is Plautus satire. As a fairly typical conspiracy theory edit, it was rapidly reverted.
Next try was with an account and misquoted "The San Francisco Chronicle later reported that an amateur San Francisco astronomer has taken five photographs with a Nikon 880 digital camera that depicted an orange beam or bolt of energy or electrical activity tinged with purple striking the Columbia just is it began breaking up" what the San Francisco Chronicle reported "that appears to show a purplish electrical bolt striking the craft" and "a glowing purple rope of light corkscrews down toward the plasma trail, appears to pass behind it, then cuts sharply toward it from below. As it merges with the plasma trail, the streak itself brightens for a distance, then fades" [2]. The rewording appears intended to support the notion that it was a beam from the ground striking the shuttle, also skipping the theory in the SF Chronicle story that it was camera shake during a 4-6 second explosure, which is what the Columbia Accident Investigation Board subsequently concluded.
I haven't examined the other two articles where he managed to get pages protected, so I have no view on what happened with them.
→Raul654 seems initially to have missed that IP edit and thought that the later, more innocuous edits were reasonable, so protected the page to the version including them. Subsequent experience and investigation appears to have persuaded →Raul654 that the initial impression was mistaken, for he later blocked Plautus satire.
Given the actions so far, and the edit histories and discussions, it's my view that any editing by Plautus satire would need to be limited to articles not relating to his conspiracy theories, for he's demonstrated the desire to subtly distort the facts to support the conspiracy theory he advances and all edits he makes to any related articles will need to be very carefully considered, to eliminate subtle distortions he can point others to as support for those theories. Jamesday 08:51, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's now apparent that Plautus has rejected your advice and instead starting making edits to several pages, including Big Bang, Talk:Big Bang, September 11, 2001 attacks, Apollo moon landing hoax accusations and now more inflammatory comments left on Raul654's talk page. -- SheikYerBooty 21:37, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Balanced against the optimistic hope of any potential contribution that Plautus satire may make in the future is the fact that he is making a net negative contribution at the moment. He has taken up an enormous amount of person-hours of other people's time that could have otherwise been spent on more productive contributions rather than cleaning up his messes. Curps 19:55, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
After all he has promised, Plautus satire is today making crank-POV edits to Big Bang ("Alfven has shown that redshift dos not correlate with distance" etc etc) and he is starting an edit war at September 11, 2001 attacks. There is a reason for calling his behavior incorrigible. Curps 21:48, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Every please read user talk:Plautus satire. I have been good to my word since last night, and ignore him, despite my deepest desire not to. Today, he started the discussion by leaving an inflammatory statement on my talk page. I responded calmly on his talk page. The discussion continued on his talk page, with him trying to goad me into a fight. At the same time, after Isomorphic's advice to move onto less controvserial topics, he went right over to Big Bang and started the same thing there. I hereby renounce my attempts to ignore him, and urge that this be sent to the mediation commitee, with a strong recommendation from me that he be banned. →Raul654 21:45, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Good grief. I just now saw that Plautus is getting into September 11. He apparently believes that we're being lied to about the identity of the hijackers. Coupled with his other beliefs (that we're being lied to about the shuttle, that we're being lied to about the moon landings) I really do wonder about his sincerity. Can it really be that he believes all this stuff, or is he in fact just trolling? Evercat 23:42, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I was asked to summarize here the activity of Plautus Satire at the Yahoo Apollo-hoax user group, where I am a regular poster. I can confirm that Plautus is currently banned there, as well as at Bad Astronomy, for persistent rude behavior and inflammatory and profane language. He has also posted at ApolloHoax in the past, but abandoned it; he is not officially banned there. In the Yahoo group, Plautus posted approximately 400 messages over a six-day period. A significant number of them were nothing more than vulgar insults aimed at other posters. His tone was uniformly condescending, even when he was clearly in the wrong on factual questions. Here is an archive of the thread in question. (Jay) 208.177.141.226 17:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I really wanted to stay out of this, but have been asked twice for my opinion...who knew people cared what I thought? :-) At any rate, I'll say that my impression of Plautus is someone who is often factually inaccurate (my impression, Plautus -- you're free to disagree) and who "assumes bad faith". We had one lengthy discussion on Plautus's user talk page where PS said several times I ought to be de-sysopped before we realized that PS had made a typo which changed the meaning of a sentence, and we actually agreed. What do I think, then? Perfect person to enter mediation with the people who are raising these charges. I think people could deal a little more nicely and fairly with Plautus. I think Plautus definitely needs to find a way to hold fringe opinions without insisting that they are "truth" that must be treated on a par with established scientific opinion (though I think many of Plautus's ideas have a place here in some respect -- how much.....well, I'm not one of the science people around here, and don't feel qualified to comment more than I have). I think Plautus also needs to understand that most of us aren't on a crusade against him/her, and that all we want is a good encyclopedia....which we perceive is threatened by someone with strong biases they seem unwilling to correct for, and a foul mouth when opposed. Sorry to speak so bluntly, Plautus, but I think you need to hear the truth about yourself. I also think you're a person who can learn from this experience and come to an agreement with the element in this community that's ticked off at you right now. Mediation is an excellent solution which I hope will be pursued as soon as possible. Good luck to all parties involved. Jwrosenzweig 04:51, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
One page that has now received a lot of , um, attention from him is Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks. I must say that I cannot decide whther he is someone living on a separate plane of reality or simply a bizarre 'gadfly'. Arno 07:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Update: I've gone to Jimbo and officially requested arbitration with Plautus Satire. Hopefully, he'll agree. IMHO, this has gone on far, far too long. →Raul654 00:11, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
I've seconded this. Arno 07:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Plautus satire is a vandal or troll or deliberately disruptive and should be banned
Plautus satire is a useful contributor and should not be banned
Plautus satire is not currently a useful contributor, but has enough potential that we ought to seek a middle ground
Plautus satire is currently the target of a personal vendetta being waged by Raul654, SheikYerBooty, Curps and others
Anyone who cares to examine this case in further detail can go here to see just one of many instances where I was insulted, derided and paternally chided while keeping a calm tone. Note the passage of mine that illicits charges of condescension and insult on me: It is a passage that makes a joke about divine intervention. - Plautus satire 16:07, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
From WikiEN-L, posted this afternoon by Jimmy Wales [4] :
I'm inclined to agree with Erik Moeller's followup [5] :
I can only agree with Erik. Plautus has had his chance; he's received advice from many sources; but he is continuing to cause aggravation and disruption wherever he goes. I think Plautus's problems are more fundamental than just a lack of experience or knowledge of Wikipedia's policies. I can't think of a single other user who has caused so much disruption and angered so many users in so short a time. -- ChrisO 00:56, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would just like to ask all the frenetic posters in the email list who are crying for my blood to please have a little more patience with the mediation process. Dealing with two people who are openly hostile with each other is not easy, and I appreciate Tuf-Kat going to bat for Curps and myself. Please let the process work, don't work the process. When I say work the process, I mean, for example, ridiculing the arbitration committee for not acting with more haste and without regard for other, better common solutions. - Plautus satire 02:53, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
frantic. - Plautus satire 03:21, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul you are way out of line, people are allowed to go around the wiki and add crack-pot theories. Lirath Q. Pynnor
Raul654, I'd just like to say that I appreciate your restraint. I know the temptation is there to simply be glib and smug, but that is not going to solve this problem. We have to both agree to be civil and reasonable toward each other or we will not have peace. One can take hostility only so long before one becomes hostile. - Plautus satire 03:52, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul654, I have given this a bit of thought and I think I know how to explain it to you more adequately.
Note that in no way is this process dependent upon a deal or bargain, it is simple cause and effect. I do not need a mechanism to enforce this peace, I merely have to make it. If there are hostilities between you and myself, and I am not the cause, you will inevitably be seen as the cause. Do you want that? I don't. Enforcement is not necessary here, so I feel this puts us both on the same bit of ground with equal footing. What I want to do is take your hand so we can both get off this peak and down into the trenches to do some real work.
Now let's take your proposal.
Now. Where is my incentive to accept your gracious offer? Regretfully I decline your proposition. I feel my interests are much better served if I am civil and reasonable. - Plautus satire 04:21, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul654, I have to say I have no confidence in your adherence to my self-imposed set of conditions (to be reasonable and civil), based on your reluctance to say you will, combined with your frantic insistence that I strike some superfluous dark compact with you. - Plautus satire 04:35, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For those of you who don't follow the mailing list (I didn't until about 2 days ago), I proposed this compromise, that Plautus be banned until such time as the arbitration committee could render a verdict. In the light of Plautus' behavior last night, Jimbo agreed to. Just thought I'd let you all know. →Raul654 01:37, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
I have been asked to provide the arbitration committee with evidence as to why Plautus should stay banned. I've started a timeline at User:Raul654/Plautus. I would ask anyone with relavant information to go there and help me fill it in. In particular, make sure to cite page diffs. Thanks for your help. →Raul654 03:36, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
User:Plautus satire (
contributions) (
talk)
User:24.79.3.230 (
contributions) (
talk)
This page was created as per steps 2 and 3 of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution
Anyone posting here should first see Wikiquette, Talk:Albert Einstein, Talk:Black hole, Talk:Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, User talk:Plautus satire, and User:Silsor/fanmail (private email correspondence containing profanity). Evercat compiled a list of disputes at User:Evercat/Plautus. Raul654 is compiling a timeline at User:Raul654/Plautus.
As a side note, Plautus Satire has previously engaged in the same behaviour in other Internet forums, including the Yahoo! Apollo-hoax group and mailing list, from which he was banned in January for abusive behaviour. He has also engaged in abusive behaviour on the apollohoax.com forums [1] in January.
Plautus satire has proven himself to be incorrigible. Despite numerous attempts to reason with him, he has refused to stop his bad behavior. When banned, he harassed silsor to the point of being criminal. When banned by me, he spammed every administrator to try to get unbanned. As soon as he was unbanned, he want right back to doing what he was (in part) banned for - reverting talk pages. →Raul654 05:08, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
What Raul654 is now choosing to call "bad behaviour" is the deletion of ones own extraneous, superfluous and redundant edits, which is sanctioned by the wikiquette guidelines. - Plautus satire 06:30, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC) (Not only sanctioned, but encouraged. And many users practice arbitrary deletion of their talk pages, for example Evercat. - Plautus satire 16:46, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC))
I think what you mean to say is I deleted extraneous and superfluous threads that I myself started, a practice which is condoned in the wikiquette guidelines and for which you have sought to have me banned permanently. All I can say is I am very thankful that you are not the supreme dictator of wikipedia. - Plautus satire 07:01, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I can't agree with either of the poll options set up below ("he's bad and should be banned" and "he's good and should stay"). He is not a vandal and I can't determine whether he is just a good troll without analysis that I am unwilling to do right now not a troll, just a conspiracy theorist. On the other hand he is not quite a useful contributor; the articles he edited (
Watercress,
Garden cress,
Phytochemical) with non-crank material were apparently only astroturfing to build his "legitimate user" profile immediately after he was unblocked.
In my opinion: Plautus Satire needs a time out in the corner. He has an awful temper and thinks everybody is out to get him; combined with his fringe theories on some topics and insistence on getting his way he'll end up as another banned Khranus unless he can control himself. I want to see how Plautus Satire handles being a regular contributor now that he has encountered NPOV policy, social etiquette and community standards. silsor 06:08, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
I will add my voice to Silsor's... this issue should be dropped for now. Plautus was banned rather soon after arriving, especially considering that nothing he did (as far I can tell) was simple vandalism. He had (and still has) some bad habits, but that's not surprising for a newcomer, and can be corrected. He also has a bad temper, but if he can control that, he can still be a useful contributor. Isomorphic 06:54, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that minutes before Plautus offered his humble and sincere apology he also added a few new things to the form and structure of this page? I guess I'm not as optimistic as you guys are about this new leaf that Plautus is promising to turn over, especially considering that he's made similar promises in the past week and broke them within minutes, literally. I think getting blocked three of four times in as many days and directly contributing to at least 5 pages being locked is just a warm up. I hope I'm wrong, it won't be the first time. And Silsor, you must have the patience of a saint or especially thick skin to not be a little angry with the very rough treatment you got from Plautus in those emails. -- SheikYerBooty 07:10, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Plautus satire's first edit to the Columbia article appears to be this edit from 24.79.3.230 ( contributions), which includes as part of the edit a link to his http: //www.geocities.com/plautus_satire/columbia/ site (remove the extra space in the link, note that it may be unavailable at times due to bandwidth consumption). Briefly, it rewrote the Shuttle accident article to suggest that the US government shot down the shuttle to replace it with a different space plane which would be better able to work with the ISS orbital "weapons platform". This is consistent with the views he's expressed elsewhere, so it seems safe to assume that it is Plautus satire. As a fairly typical conspiracy theory edit, it was rapidly reverted.
Next try was with an account and misquoted "The San Francisco Chronicle later reported that an amateur San Francisco astronomer has taken five photographs with a Nikon 880 digital camera that depicted an orange beam or bolt of energy or electrical activity tinged with purple striking the Columbia just is it began breaking up" what the San Francisco Chronicle reported "that appears to show a purplish electrical bolt striking the craft" and "a glowing purple rope of light corkscrews down toward the plasma trail, appears to pass behind it, then cuts sharply toward it from below. As it merges with the plasma trail, the streak itself brightens for a distance, then fades" [2]. The rewording appears intended to support the notion that it was a beam from the ground striking the shuttle, also skipping the theory in the SF Chronicle story that it was camera shake during a 4-6 second explosure, which is what the Columbia Accident Investigation Board subsequently concluded.
I haven't examined the other two articles where he managed to get pages protected, so I have no view on what happened with them.
→Raul654 seems initially to have missed that IP edit and thought that the later, more innocuous edits were reasonable, so protected the page to the version including them. Subsequent experience and investigation appears to have persuaded →Raul654 that the initial impression was mistaken, for he later blocked Plautus satire.
Given the actions so far, and the edit histories and discussions, it's my view that any editing by Plautus satire would need to be limited to articles not relating to his conspiracy theories, for he's demonstrated the desire to subtly distort the facts to support the conspiracy theory he advances and all edits he makes to any related articles will need to be very carefully considered, to eliminate subtle distortions he can point others to as support for those theories. Jamesday 08:51, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's now apparent that Plautus has rejected your advice and instead starting making edits to several pages, including Big Bang, Talk:Big Bang, September 11, 2001 attacks, Apollo moon landing hoax accusations and now more inflammatory comments left on Raul654's talk page. -- SheikYerBooty 21:37, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Balanced against the optimistic hope of any potential contribution that Plautus satire may make in the future is the fact that he is making a net negative contribution at the moment. He has taken up an enormous amount of person-hours of other people's time that could have otherwise been spent on more productive contributions rather than cleaning up his messes. Curps 19:55, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
After all he has promised, Plautus satire is today making crank-POV edits to Big Bang ("Alfven has shown that redshift dos not correlate with distance" etc etc) and he is starting an edit war at September 11, 2001 attacks. There is a reason for calling his behavior incorrigible. Curps 21:48, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Every please read user talk:Plautus satire. I have been good to my word since last night, and ignore him, despite my deepest desire not to. Today, he started the discussion by leaving an inflammatory statement on my talk page. I responded calmly on his talk page. The discussion continued on his talk page, with him trying to goad me into a fight. At the same time, after Isomorphic's advice to move onto less controvserial topics, he went right over to Big Bang and started the same thing there. I hereby renounce my attempts to ignore him, and urge that this be sent to the mediation commitee, with a strong recommendation from me that he be banned. →Raul654 21:45, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Good grief. I just now saw that Plautus is getting into September 11. He apparently believes that we're being lied to about the identity of the hijackers. Coupled with his other beliefs (that we're being lied to about the shuttle, that we're being lied to about the moon landings) I really do wonder about his sincerity. Can it really be that he believes all this stuff, or is he in fact just trolling? Evercat 23:42, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I was asked to summarize here the activity of Plautus Satire at the Yahoo Apollo-hoax user group, where I am a regular poster. I can confirm that Plautus is currently banned there, as well as at Bad Astronomy, for persistent rude behavior and inflammatory and profane language. He has also posted at ApolloHoax in the past, but abandoned it; he is not officially banned there. In the Yahoo group, Plautus posted approximately 400 messages over a six-day period. A significant number of them were nothing more than vulgar insults aimed at other posters. His tone was uniformly condescending, even when he was clearly in the wrong on factual questions. Here is an archive of the thread in question. (Jay) 208.177.141.226 17:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I really wanted to stay out of this, but have been asked twice for my opinion...who knew people cared what I thought? :-) At any rate, I'll say that my impression of Plautus is someone who is often factually inaccurate (my impression, Plautus -- you're free to disagree) and who "assumes bad faith". We had one lengthy discussion on Plautus's user talk page where PS said several times I ought to be de-sysopped before we realized that PS had made a typo which changed the meaning of a sentence, and we actually agreed. What do I think, then? Perfect person to enter mediation with the people who are raising these charges. I think people could deal a little more nicely and fairly with Plautus. I think Plautus definitely needs to find a way to hold fringe opinions without insisting that they are "truth" that must be treated on a par with established scientific opinion (though I think many of Plautus's ideas have a place here in some respect -- how much.....well, I'm not one of the science people around here, and don't feel qualified to comment more than I have). I think Plautus also needs to understand that most of us aren't on a crusade against him/her, and that all we want is a good encyclopedia....which we perceive is threatened by someone with strong biases they seem unwilling to correct for, and a foul mouth when opposed. Sorry to speak so bluntly, Plautus, but I think you need to hear the truth about yourself. I also think you're a person who can learn from this experience and come to an agreement with the element in this community that's ticked off at you right now. Mediation is an excellent solution which I hope will be pursued as soon as possible. Good luck to all parties involved. Jwrosenzweig 04:51, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
One page that has now received a lot of , um, attention from him is Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks. I must say that I cannot decide whther he is someone living on a separate plane of reality or simply a bizarre 'gadfly'. Arno 07:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Update: I've gone to Jimbo and officially requested arbitration with Plautus Satire. Hopefully, he'll agree. IMHO, this has gone on far, far too long. →Raul654 00:11, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
I've seconded this. Arno 07:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Plautus satire is a vandal or troll or deliberately disruptive and should be banned
Plautus satire is a useful contributor and should not be banned
Plautus satire is not currently a useful contributor, but has enough potential that we ought to seek a middle ground
Plautus satire is currently the target of a personal vendetta being waged by Raul654, SheikYerBooty, Curps and others
Anyone who cares to examine this case in further detail can go here to see just one of many instances where I was insulted, derided and paternally chided while keeping a calm tone. Note the passage of mine that illicits charges of condescension and insult on me: It is a passage that makes a joke about divine intervention. - Plautus satire 16:07, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
From WikiEN-L, posted this afternoon by Jimmy Wales [4] :
I'm inclined to agree with Erik Moeller's followup [5] :
I can only agree with Erik. Plautus has had his chance; he's received advice from many sources; but he is continuing to cause aggravation and disruption wherever he goes. I think Plautus's problems are more fundamental than just a lack of experience or knowledge of Wikipedia's policies. I can't think of a single other user who has caused so much disruption and angered so many users in so short a time. -- ChrisO 00:56, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would just like to ask all the frenetic posters in the email list who are crying for my blood to please have a little more patience with the mediation process. Dealing with two people who are openly hostile with each other is not easy, and I appreciate Tuf-Kat going to bat for Curps and myself. Please let the process work, don't work the process. When I say work the process, I mean, for example, ridiculing the arbitration committee for not acting with more haste and without regard for other, better common solutions. - Plautus satire 02:53, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
frantic. - Plautus satire 03:21, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul you are way out of line, people are allowed to go around the wiki and add crack-pot theories. Lirath Q. Pynnor
Raul654, I'd just like to say that I appreciate your restraint. I know the temptation is there to simply be glib and smug, but that is not going to solve this problem. We have to both agree to be civil and reasonable toward each other or we will not have peace. One can take hostility only so long before one becomes hostile. - Plautus satire 03:52, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul654, I have given this a bit of thought and I think I know how to explain it to you more adequately.
Note that in no way is this process dependent upon a deal or bargain, it is simple cause and effect. I do not need a mechanism to enforce this peace, I merely have to make it. If there are hostilities between you and myself, and I am not the cause, you will inevitably be seen as the cause. Do you want that? I don't. Enforcement is not necessary here, so I feel this puts us both on the same bit of ground with equal footing. What I want to do is take your hand so we can both get off this peak and down into the trenches to do some real work.
Now let's take your proposal.
Now. Where is my incentive to accept your gracious offer? Regretfully I decline your proposition. I feel my interests are much better served if I am civil and reasonable. - Plautus satire 04:21, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Raul654, I have to say I have no confidence in your adherence to my self-imposed set of conditions (to be reasonable and civil), based on your reluctance to say you will, combined with your frantic insistence that I strike some superfluous dark compact with you. - Plautus satire 04:35, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For those of you who don't follow the mailing list (I didn't until about 2 days ago), I proposed this compromise, that Plautus be banned until such time as the arbitration committee could render a verdict. In the light of Plautus' behavior last night, Jimbo agreed to. Just thought I'd let you all know. →Raul654 01:37, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
I have been asked to provide the arbitration committee with evidence as to why Plautus should stay banned. I've started a timeline at User:Raul654/Plautus. I would ask anyone with relavant information to go there and help me fill it in. In particular, make sure to cite page diffs. Thanks for your help. →Raul654 03:36, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)