In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 20:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 09:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC).
This is a complaint about User:Nick Boulevard for issues including POV, personal attacks, and persistent copyright violation.
This dispute concerns the conduct of User:Nick Boulevard, who has had a Wikipedia account since May 2004, alongside pre-existing anonymous access. He exclusively edits articles about Birmingham and (often tenuously) related subjects, where he has been a major initiator of editing conflicts.
Many of his Birmingham-related contributions are, or contain, flagrant copyright violations, and none are sourced. He engages in frequent revert wars, refusing to allow others to change 'his' pages without his prior agreement, and referring to edits he dislikes as "vandalism". He often reverts to remove corrections - and some necessary deletions - on grounds of fact, spelling, grammar and POV bias ( Birmingham is currently protected, in large part because of his behaviour).
He has engaged in repeated abuse of other users, and has repeatedly claimed that several of them are sockpuppets of User:Pigsonthewing (Andy Mabbett).
A repeated specific area of conflict is neutrality. He would like Wikipedia to promote an exclusively positive view of Birmingham. This means that what other editors view as edits toward NPOV, he views as reflecting a bias against, even hatred of, Birmingham. His user page in May 2004 [1] stated that there should be one "guardian" of each city page, a role which he seems to want to fulfil in relation to the Birmingham page.
He continues to use anonymous access, claiming to often be "too busy" to log in, and to be using a computer which won't allow him to remain logged in [2]. This results in many of his edits appearing under various IP addresses in the range 195.92.67.* - for instance, 195.92.67.65. (These are automatically assigned by one of the UK's largest dialup access providers; occasionally others have used the same addresses to edit the same pages).
Many of the copyright violations have been reported and removed - Telecommunication in Birmingham, Chinatown, Birmingham, Valor Company Ltd, William Bown, Jewellery Quarter, Halfords, Calthorpe Motor Company Ltd., GW Hands Motor Company, Music Wire (English), Imperial Wire Gage & British Standard Gage, Perry Motor Company Ltd..
Their removal by copyvio administrators is evidence that they were significant undiluted violations rather than mixed with original material or " copying and posting a few short sentences". Some are still in existence. In May 2004 NB admitted making copyright violations when he first started [3], but note the recent dates of these (many of those listed above were also from earlier this year).
Revert wars - see history of Birmingham, Brummie, Brummagem, Science and invention in Birmingham.
Attempts to discuss matters rationally, personal abuse:
All four of Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Key_policies (Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, avoid bias, don't infringe copyrights, respect other contributors).
Guidelines:
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.
Firstly:
When to use RFC
RFC is appropriate when you want other wikipedians to visit the page, to allow a consensus or a better quality of decision, to help resolve a dispute or break a deadlock.
Before adding an entry here:
Whatever the nature of the dispute, the first resort should always be to discuss the problem with the other user. Try to resolve the dispute on your own first. For disputes over user conduct, before requesting community comment, at least two people should have contacted the user on their talk page, or the talk pages involved in the dispute, and failed to resolve the problem. Don't forget to follow Wikiquette. Wikiquette is more important in resolving a dispute, not less.
I do not recall being approached by any of the accusing users on my talk page with an attempt to resolve any disputes at all, infact all comments from the accusers have so far been quite condesending on article pages. I only stumbled across a page in preperation for this by chance, that IMO is extremely underhanded.
I believe that Andy Mabbett could be BrumBurger or associated with him at least, Andy Mabbett has stalked my every move on wikipedia since I first visited and now he Brumburger and RayGirvan have discussed openly their detailed efforts to trace my IP address which in my opinion is a little more serious than other things discussed on this page, it is a type of obssesive behaviour and I do not welcome the attention.
Andy Mabbett has a history of editing (no problem) but also deleting my work, his personal vendetta has sometimes wound me up which is why I become irritated, he has been blocked for ignoring warnings on his talk page, he is in constant dispute on his talk page whereas I actually get on with most people here, albeit thinly at times, I am reasonable provided I am approached in a respectful manner and in Andy and Rays case, lets just say that they rub me up the wrong way and I have never used profein or threatening language in my annoyance at their many reverts and deletions. By listing some of my articles as copyright they have actually lost much of my original material and I think that they know that only too well.
Basically the fact that this page exists at all is quite ridiculous and a waste of your time Andy, Ray whoever you all may be, you should hope that I do not find the time and patience to make a page like this about you, maybe that is the difference, I just don't hold this kind of malice you seem to let fester :) Nick Boulevard 21:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting that the first three characters to sign Brumburgers page are the three people who I have suspected to being the same person, how strange, no link there then. Nick Boulevard 21:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
An example of Brumburger dedicating his time here to watching me, nearly every article he has edited there has been related to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Brumburger
An example of Andy Mabbett reverting my work and dedicating his time to "edit" me out of existance: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Pigsonthewing
People cannot understand why he does this but I just can't be bothered to explain anymore. See last post on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pigsonthewing thats the second time I've tried to create an article on Jewellery Quarter but Andy doesn't like it.
To be honest I am fast losing interest in Wikipedia at this moment in time.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
Looks hopeless to me. Judging by Nick Boulevard's response, he's unwilling to admit that he's made mistakes. In that case, the best option for this RfC is to use it to organize evidence for an arbitration request.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Nick's behaviour has been regrettable. Unfortunately, so has that of some of his accusers. Nick has a POV, which he was pushing hard. That appears to have moderated lately and some of his harshness is a response to harsh treatment, which in turn seems to spring from frustration at his intransigence. I deduce that Nick is opinionated, passionate, too quick to take offense, and aggressive in defence. He is, however, learning and adopting more appropriate behaviour—albeit inconsistently and slowly. The problem with co-ordinated and well-prepared RFCs of this nature is that the subject can feel bullied. This is not conducive to resolution. All four participants agreeing to treat the others with care and respect would be a good start, however, and we are already seeing some rapprochement between Nick and Ray. I am aware that this opinion delivered solely through text may appear condescending; it is not intended that way.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I think the core underlying issues at stake in this RfC are co-operation and civility, and I would hesitate to suggest it is only Nick at fault.
Nick seems to have been a little over zealous in submitting work which turns out to have been copyrighted, but now seems to have accepted the community consensus that this can be damaging so this issue should be dropped.
Rather, the meat of this seems to be a personal vendetta between him and User:Pigsonthewing. I have conflicted with POTW myself and find he is skilled at subtle transmission of abuse and resentful feelings ( User talk:Nick Boulevard).
I would argue that both are at fault, but POTW is more artful, so often Nick is painted as the solely guilty party. By no means do I blame POTW in totality - but it takes two to tango - so to speak.
More recently I have noticed less of the problematic behaviour from both users. I think POTW and Nick have both reflected on the issues this conflict has raised and have become better wikipedians for it.
At least that is what I hope.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Leonig Mig, the author of the above comment, has since admitted "Regards Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing), well, perhaps I should come clean. My edits against his are done purely for the purpose of stalking him." [27]. Andy Mabbett 09:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
According to Leonig Mig, this statement has been taken out of context. Please read the cited diff to see that context. — Theo (Talk) 00:22, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
My involvement with Nick Boulevard has been limited to the articles Jewellery Quarter and Dip pen. I initially contributed a stub to hold a place for the Jewellery Quarter article after some copyvio material was removed. Shortly thereafter, Nick Boulevard added substantially to the article, including a great deal of information on pen manufacture in the same area. I edited this material out and merged it with dip pen. Throughout the entire process, Nick was willing to listen to arguments, did not attempt to revert or sabotage my edits, and was colleagual in his actions. In fact, the only instance in which I felt a little hostility was in an edit summary comment by Pigsonthewing to the effect that I had ought to read the "panel", when in fact I already had. It may well be that Nick Boulevard has demonstrated less than admirable behavior in this series of actions, but after reading Pigsonthewing's user talk, it is apparent that this is another person who has issues with civillity and cannot always play well with others. In short, there is plenty of room for pointing fingers here, and they should not all be aimed at Nick. Denni ☯ 20:30, 2005 July 10 (UTC)
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
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comment to Carnildo moved from above - should it be moved to Talk page?
For earlier discussion, see /archive001
Further problems here: Talk:Arts in Birmingham#Musical comparisons. POV obstruction of edits about UK musical history. RayGirvan 23:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please explain these problems further... I have not touched the article and I am in discussion with users trying to reach a compromise to the intro to the brum popular music section (what a crime), I have not used abuse or copyright vio... what is it now then Ray??? annoyed that I am not deleted or do you actually have something worthwile to complain about? obviously not, the more you actually side with Pigs on the wing... strange behaviour in favour of an user that has previously been banned for his "edits" here, not that I am counting, where is brumburger lately?
There seems to be a disturbing pattern of behaviour and edits (time wise and article wise) from three users in wikipedia. Nick Boulevard 23:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, chaps, let's break it up! Nick: Your accusations appear paranoid. These guys are watching your edits because of your past behaviour. It is clear that they are not sockpuppets and your accusations are offensive to editors who believe that they are acting in good faith. Please stop making such accusations. Ray: I understand your anger but stop using abusive language. The exerpt that you cite here is abusive and goading. You are a professional writer so I know that you are skilled in your use of language. Please moderate your tone in these discussions.— Theo (Talk) 07:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi Andy Mabbett, please can you explain why you have just blatantly deleted most of the article I just created early this evening about chilling out, take a look at my last edit then Pigs edit "Chill out music" came about from the phrase "just chilling out", this is why you need to explain a near total removal of an article I have just created? Nick Boulevard 21:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the sockpuppet thing, I can sort of see why Nick is suspicious. I too find it rather odd that Brumburger and RayGirvan suddenly appeared within days of Andy Mabbet returning, and now seem to be acting as a team. However I dont believe that they are the same people, although they could possibly know each other and are working together. It all seems to be too convenient to be a coincidence. Now I'm not neccesarily saying that this is the case, and I'm sure that you'll all deny this, but I can understand why Nick is suspicious. G-Man 21:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ray & Nick: Cease your personal attacks on each other. I asked each of the four of you to refrain from responding to attacks precisely because of this kind of escalation. This has gone on long enough. You are all poisoning the atmosphere and hindering enhancemenet of the encyclopedia. I have tried being gentle/lenient with each of you. Take this as a warning that your continuing conflict is disrupting Wikipedia and moving you closer to arbitration.— Theo (Talk) 00:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for that apology. I think it would also be appropriate for you to apologise to Ray and retract your Sunday Sport jab, just in case Ray decides to return and so gets to read it. I further suggest that it would be a good idea for each of you to take a break from editing those articles that have become your battlegrounds or that are on related topics. Tempers are way too high here and avoiding the catalysts would allow desirable cooling. For clarity: this is my personal opinion; I make no assertion. [And do not make an apology if it is conditional or includes a reassertion of hostility or criticism.] — Theo (Talk) 17:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 20:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 09:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC).
This is a complaint about User:Nick Boulevard for issues including POV, personal attacks, and persistent copyright violation.
This dispute concerns the conduct of User:Nick Boulevard, who has had a Wikipedia account since May 2004, alongside pre-existing anonymous access. He exclusively edits articles about Birmingham and (often tenuously) related subjects, where he has been a major initiator of editing conflicts.
Many of his Birmingham-related contributions are, or contain, flagrant copyright violations, and none are sourced. He engages in frequent revert wars, refusing to allow others to change 'his' pages without his prior agreement, and referring to edits he dislikes as "vandalism". He often reverts to remove corrections - and some necessary deletions - on grounds of fact, spelling, grammar and POV bias ( Birmingham is currently protected, in large part because of his behaviour).
He has engaged in repeated abuse of other users, and has repeatedly claimed that several of them are sockpuppets of User:Pigsonthewing (Andy Mabbett).
A repeated specific area of conflict is neutrality. He would like Wikipedia to promote an exclusively positive view of Birmingham. This means that what other editors view as edits toward NPOV, he views as reflecting a bias against, even hatred of, Birmingham. His user page in May 2004 [1] stated that there should be one "guardian" of each city page, a role which he seems to want to fulfil in relation to the Birmingham page.
He continues to use anonymous access, claiming to often be "too busy" to log in, and to be using a computer which won't allow him to remain logged in [2]. This results in many of his edits appearing under various IP addresses in the range 195.92.67.* - for instance, 195.92.67.65. (These are automatically assigned by one of the UK's largest dialup access providers; occasionally others have used the same addresses to edit the same pages).
Many of the copyright violations have been reported and removed - Telecommunication in Birmingham, Chinatown, Birmingham, Valor Company Ltd, William Bown, Jewellery Quarter, Halfords, Calthorpe Motor Company Ltd., GW Hands Motor Company, Music Wire (English), Imperial Wire Gage & British Standard Gage, Perry Motor Company Ltd..
Their removal by copyvio administrators is evidence that they were significant undiluted violations rather than mixed with original material or " copying and posting a few short sentences". Some are still in existence. In May 2004 NB admitted making copyright violations when he first started [3], but note the recent dates of these (many of those listed above were also from earlier this year).
Revert wars - see history of Birmingham, Brummie, Brummagem, Science and invention in Birmingham.
Attempts to discuss matters rationally, personal abuse:
All four of Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Key_policies (Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, avoid bias, don't infringe copyrights, respect other contributors).
Guidelines:
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.
Firstly:
When to use RFC
RFC is appropriate when you want other wikipedians to visit the page, to allow a consensus or a better quality of decision, to help resolve a dispute or break a deadlock.
Before adding an entry here:
Whatever the nature of the dispute, the first resort should always be to discuss the problem with the other user. Try to resolve the dispute on your own first. For disputes over user conduct, before requesting community comment, at least two people should have contacted the user on their talk page, or the talk pages involved in the dispute, and failed to resolve the problem. Don't forget to follow Wikiquette. Wikiquette is more important in resolving a dispute, not less.
I do not recall being approached by any of the accusing users on my talk page with an attempt to resolve any disputes at all, infact all comments from the accusers have so far been quite condesending on article pages. I only stumbled across a page in preperation for this by chance, that IMO is extremely underhanded.
I believe that Andy Mabbett could be BrumBurger or associated with him at least, Andy Mabbett has stalked my every move on wikipedia since I first visited and now he Brumburger and RayGirvan have discussed openly their detailed efforts to trace my IP address which in my opinion is a little more serious than other things discussed on this page, it is a type of obssesive behaviour and I do not welcome the attention.
Andy Mabbett has a history of editing (no problem) but also deleting my work, his personal vendetta has sometimes wound me up which is why I become irritated, he has been blocked for ignoring warnings on his talk page, he is in constant dispute on his talk page whereas I actually get on with most people here, albeit thinly at times, I am reasonable provided I am approached in a respectful manner and in Andy and Rays case, lets just say that they rub me up the wrong way and I have never used profein or threatening language in my annoyance at their many reverts and deletions. By listing some of my articles as copyright they have actually lost much of my original material and I think that they know that only too well.
Basically the fact that this page exists at all is quite ridiculous and a waste of your time Andy, Ray whoever you all may be, you should hope that I do not find the time and patience to make a page like this about you, maybe that is the difference, I just don't hold this kind of malice you seem to let fester :) Nick Boulevard 21:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting that the first three characters to sign Brumburgers page are the three people who I have suspected to being the same person, how strange, no link there then. Nick Boulevard 21:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
An example of Brumburger dedicating his time here to watching me, nearly every article he has edited there has been related to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Brumburger
An example of Andy Mabbett reverting my work and dedicating his time to "edit" me out of existance: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Pigsonthewing
People cannot understand why he does this but I just can't be bothered to explain anymore. See last post on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pigsonthewing thats the second time I've tried to create an article on Jewellery Quarter but Andy doesn't like it.
To be honest I am fast losing interest in Wikipedia at this moment in time.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
Looks hopeless to me. Judging by Nick Boulevard's response, he's unwilling to admit that he's made mistakes. In that case, the best option for this RfC is to use it to organize evidence for an arbitration request.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Nick's behaviour has been regrettable. Unfortunately, so has that of some of his accusers. Nick has a POV, which he was pushing hard. That appears to have moderated lately and some of his harshness is a response to harsh treatment, which in turn seems to spring from frustration at his intransigence. I deduce that Nick is opinionated, passionate, too quick to take offense, and aggressive in defence. He is, however, learning and adopting more appropriate behaviour—albeit inconsistently and slowly. The problem with co-ordinated and well-prepared RFCs of this nature is that the subject can feel bullied. This is not conducive to resolution. All four participants agreeing to treat the others with care and respect would be a good start, however, and we are already seeing some rapprochement between Nick and Ray. I am aware that this opinion delivered solely through text may appear condescending; it is not intended that way.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I think the core underlying issues at stake in this RfC are co-operation and civility, and I would hesitate to suggest it is only Nick at fault.
Nick seems to have been a little over zealous in submitting work which turns out to have been copyrighted, but now seems to have accepted the community consensus that this can be damaging so this issue should be dropped.
Rather, the meat of this seems to be a personal vendetta between him and User:Pigsonthewing. I have conflicted with POTW myself and find he is skilled at subtle transmission of abuse and resentful feelings ( User talk:Nick Boulevard).
I would argue that both are at fault, but POTW is more artful, so often Nick is painted as the solely guilty party. By no means do I blame POTW in totality - but it takes two to tango - so to speak.
More recently I have noticed less of the problematic behaviour from both users. I think POTW and Nick have both reflected on the issues this conflict has raised and have become better wikipedians for it.
At least that is what I hope.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Leonig Mig, the author of the above comment, has since admitted "Regards Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing), well, perhaps I should come clean. My edits against his are done purely for the purpose of stalking him." [27]. Andy Mabbett 09:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
According to Leonig Mig, this statement has been taken out of context. Please read the cited diff to see that context. — Theo (Talk) 00:22, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
My involvement with Nick Boulevard has been limited to the articles Jewellery Quarter and Dip pen. I initially contributed a stub to hold a place for the Jewellery Quarter article after some copyvio material was removed. Shortly thereafter, Nick Boulevard added substantially to the article, including a great deal of information on pen manufacture in the same area. I edited this material out and merged it with dip pen. Throughout the entire process, Nick was willing to listen to arguments, did not attempt to revert or sabotage my edits, and was colleagual in his actions. In fact, the only instance in which I felt a little hostility was in an edit summary comment by Pigsonthewing to the effect that I had ought to read the "panel", when in fact I already had. It may well be that Nick Boulevard has demonstrated less than admirable behavior in this series of actions, but after reading Pigsonthewing's user talk, it is apparent that this is another person who has issues with civillity and cannot always play well with others. In short, there is plenty of room for pointing fingers here, and they should not all be aimed at Nick. Denni ☯ 20:30, 2005 July 10 (UTC)
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.
comment to Carnildo moved from above - should it be moved to Talk page?
For earlier discussion, see /archive001
Further problems here: Talk:Arts in Birmingham#Musical comparisons. POV obstruction of edits about UK musical history. RayGirvan 23:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please explain these problems further... I have not touched the article and I am in discussion with users trying to reach a compromise to the intro to the brum popular music section (what a crime), I have not used abuse or copyright vio... what is it now then Ray??? annoyed that I am not deleted or do you actually have something worthwile to complain about? obviously not, the more you actually side with Pigs on the wing... strange behaviour in favour of an user that has previously been banned for his "edits" here, not that I am counting, where is brumburger lately?
There seems to be a disturbing pattern of behaviour and edits (time wise and article wise) from three users in wikipedia. Nick Boulevard 23:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, chaps, let's break it up! Nick: Your accusations appear paranoid. These guys are watching your edits because of your past behaviour. It is clear that they are not sockpuppets and your accusations are offensive to editors who believe that they are acting in good faith. Please stop making such accusations. Ray: I understand your anger but stop using abusive language. The exerpt that you cite here is abusive and goading. You are a professional writer so I know that you are skilled in your use of language. Please moderate your tone in these discussions.— Theo (Talk) 07:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi Andy Mabbett, please can you explain why you have just blatantly deleted most of the article I just created early this evening about chilling out, take a look at my last edit then Pigs edit "Chill out music" came about from the phrase "just chilling out", this is why you need to explain a near total removal of an article I have just created? Nick Boulevard 21:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the sockpuppet thing, I can sort of see why Nick is suspicious. I too find it rather odd that Brumburger and RayGirvan suddenly appeared within days of Andy Mabbet returning, and now seem to be acting as a team. However I dont believe that they are the same people, although they could possibly know each other and are working together. It all seems to be too convenient to be a coincidence. Now I'm not neccesarily saying that this is the case, and I'm sure that you'll all deny this, but I can understand why Nick is suspicious. G-Man 21:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ray & Nick: Cease your personal attacks on each other. I asked each of the four of you to refrain from responding to attacks precisely because of this kind of escalation. This has gone on long enough. You are all poisoning the atmosphere and hindering enhancemenet of the encyclopedia. I have tried being gentle/lenient with each of you. Take this as a warning that your continuing conflict is disrupting Wikipedia and moving you closer to arbitration.— Theo (Talk) 00:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for that apology. I think it would also be appropriate for you to apologise to Ray and retract your Sunday Sport jab, just in case Ray decides to return and so gets to read it. I further suggest that it would be a good idea for each of you to take a break from editing those articles that have become your battlegrounds or that are on related topics. Tempers are way too high here and avoiding the catalysts would allow desirable cooling. For clarity: this is my personal opinion; I make no assertion. [And do not make an apology if it is conditional or includes a reassertion of hostility or criticism.] — Theo (Talk) 17:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)