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Messhermit is an intractable POV warrior concerning the article Alberto Fujimori. Unwilling or unable to accept other peoples' points of view, he inists that only his version of the facts are correct and dismisses all documentary evidence contrary to it as "biased". In addition, he breaches wikipedia etiquette in trying to enforce his views.
Messhermit started contributing to Wikipedia in November, 2004, and has made some 75 edits. While he could potentially become a useful contributor to Wikipedia, he urgently needs to learn how to resolve editorial conflicts with users with whom he has ideological differences in a constructive, respectful fashion.
Together with another avowedly pro-Fujimori user, HappyApple ("i am supporter of the best president of all time" ( [1] edit summary: "We need your help on this cruzade (sic)"), Messhermit is attempting to whitewash various aspects of Fujimori's presidency in Fujimori article. Messhermit rejects virtually every piece of documentary evidence which contradicts his opinion of Fujimori. He appears unable to accept that other POVs in the world exist and that they need to be represented as well. He insists that his POV is the only acceptable one. In his frequent heated responses, Messhermit skirts precareously close to ad-hominen attacks, insisting his fellow editors know nothing about the subject matter.
In addition, Messhermit frequently turns disputes in Peruvian partisan politics, which has no place on the Talk pages of Wikipedia.
Some of the difficulties may arise from linguistic limitations, but this cannot account for all the problems he has collaborating with others.
(provide diffs and links)
More than what Viajero mentions above, I'm very unhappy with Messhermit's personal attacks on Viajero; the following quotations are all from Talk:Alberto Fujimori
Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(provide diffs and links)
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
The matter of dispute is not about the article of the former president itself, but about the sources and about most of the statements that they use to support their "politically motivated" edits. Until the end, I have tryed to reach compromise, but the only thing that User:Viajero can be satisfaied is by banning me and by seeing the article the way that they write it.
Viajero had said I only play partisan politics. That is not truth.
User Viajero is not whiling to arrange compromise in this article. Viajero continued to revert most of the my contributions without eveng bothering to explained why their were wrong. The article was in a poorly and totaly forgotten condition before my modifications were even there. In my first edits on the talk page(since I didn't Vandalize the page), I explained most of my mayor modifications.
But User:Viajero simply catalogate them as irrelevants and reverted to his previous work (withouth giving me enought explanations or explaining them on the Talk page). Unfortunately for me, Viajero didn't show up in the talk page and keep to revert the webpage every time that I tryed to stated something.
While I believe at the begining that most of his colaborations could be ussefull for the page too, I soon realize that he was already modifying other Peruvian-related pages, arranged them in a "politicaly correct" way that only satisfy their own POV.
I'm not champion of POV. I demand that to be retracted. Messhermit
This arrise by the fact that they "prefered" to call "Sendero Luminoso" and the "MRTA" as "rebels or guerrillas", disregarding completely what is the popular opinion of the peruvian people and what the most civilized nations undesrstad by those groups: "Terrorist Organizations". As you can see, this is an attemp by them to stated their own POV under the banner of "that is not a suitable word" to give legality to their attemps:
I accuse Viajero of using a double standard, judging things partially and using their own POV in most of those cases.
Viajero said also that I disregard most of the information of "Human Right" and "AP". I totaly respect any independent and well supported investigation. Unfortunately, most of the pages that User:Viajero has been using only show Personal Opinions of Reporters, most of them clearly against the former president. Those a POV, and cannot be used to reach a NPOV on Wikipedia, at least not by the concept that I have of NPOV.
And in those that involve the peruvian government, I have also give them enought evidence to make them qualify as merely POV.
As a matter of fact, I have get a lot of information from pages like the ones stated, but using only arguments regarding the history and events that happened during those times, wich are not questioned by both sides.
Lori Berenson is a very sencity topic for Peruvian Society. That Is why I felt offended when User:Viajero tryed to support some of his arguments with this. I request that this board made an explicit investigation about how "neutral" can be any source coming from the "FARC" or "Al-QUAEDA" webpages, since it was already stated that "even the devil can be quoted".
Also, Portratin the picture of the death terrorist does not help the webpage to achieve any other POV that accusing the former president of being the "mastermind" of those tragic events. I agree that they are extremely controvertial, but is an ongoing event (there is an investigation around it here in Peru) and should not be label so freely. My compromise was to create a special page that can discuss the events of the Japanesse Embassy, wich both Viajero refuse.
As you can see, probably the only mistake that I commit was getting offended by those arguments. I respect the "Human Rights" Assosiations, I respect any Neutral and independent source of information. But Viajero did not respect most of my ideas, only ignoring them and forcing me to apply a defensive possition.
I request the board that if any santion is applied, Viajero should be banned also in order to prevent further problems on this related topics. They have a clearly POV regarding this topics and have clearly failed to attemp to reach a compromise, since they will only be satisfied when their own words are writed in those articles.
Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Regarding about HappyApple and AAAAA, the fact that they don't share Viajero's POV appears to be enought motive to prevent them to express its oppinions on the talk page and any other page.
The fact that HappyApple is an ardent "Fujimorista" (Becouse I know him from several years) doesn't desquilify him to use Wikipedia. As a matter of fact, He is involved in other Peruvian related topics that have nothing to do with this at all.
The Quote that Viajero is using to describing him was writed on a personal page, wich has nothing to do with the article in question or the main motive for this discusion. If they have ever modify the Page, They have done it to prevent Viajero from imposing his own POV.
AAAAA is involved in a case appart with the User:Viajero regarding another Peruvian topic. There is also an Ongoing dispute regarding "Sendero Luminoso" betwen this two parts.
But I Investigate that Viajero and Jmabel are ussualy distortioning several Facts about Peruvian History and also have a common interest in blocking anything that AAAA was willing to collaborte..
Viajero Is using this as a way to censorate both, I don't agree. The Dispute involved only Viajero, Jmabel and me. I request this Board to leave them out of this dispute.
I have put on Black most of the quotes that I considerated them as offensive and higly Biased. This only contribute to create more controversy and not helping the main topic:
Sorry, I am not interested in debating Peruvian partisan politics in this forum. The facts about Fujimori are well known and documented, and that is what the bulk of this article should contain, as well as a small amount of space for presenting various interpretations of those facts. Politicians are politicians; most of them are corrupt or incompetent, albeit in Peru or any other country. If Peru had a extradition treaty with Japan, Fujimori would now be behind bars, where he belongs, sharing the view of the Callao harbor with Guzmán and Montesinos, and answering for his crimes like the two of them. And if he ever returns to Peru, he will be arrested, no? As for the privatizations, it was well-documented, in the Peruvian media, that of the some seven billion dollars raised by privatizations during the Fujimori era, only one billion ended up in the Peruvian treasury; the rest got spent on election campaigns, bribes, etc. Moreover, many of those state-owned enterprises, like the Cerro de Pasco mines, which I have visited, were sold far below market value to Fujimori's cronies, who have made a forture exploiting them. In a country as poor as Peru, that really is a crime. -- Viajero 21:53, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although I realize that Fujimori cannot be held responsible for all the actions of Montesinos, in this particular case, as you may recall, Fujimori took explict credit for the outcome, posing for the press amidst the bodies of the dead rebels. DO you remember those photos? Here is one: http://www.aprodeh.org.pe/mrta/web00.htm
Messhermit: the two Spanish-language quotations you gave, where are they from? I believe that you didn't just make them up, but who are you quoting? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
There are very, very few hard and fast rules in Wikipedia. There are, however, a number of useful guidelines for handling controversial topics, such as terrorism (see Wikipedia:Words to avoid). A substantial number of editors, such as Joe and me, prefer to avoid labelling people "terrorist" for reasons explained on that page and discussed at great length on many Talk pages; namely, that it is not a objective, scientific term and it depends largely on your point of view. My preference is to avoid using it where possible and use the worda "rebel" and "militant", and to speak instead of "terrorist acts", which is less ambiguous.How about simply presenting the facts and letting readers be the judge of whether people are "terrorists"? It is a form of intellectual laziness to simply moralize about these phenomena; it is far more useful to try to understand them. It would, IMO, behoove you to spend less time ranting about SL and MRTA and more time understanding why they came into being. Indeed, SL and MRTA have been erradicated, but the societal problems that led to their creation have not been addressed, and in fact today Peru is demonstrably worse off in many ways than it was ago in the 1970a. So, theoretically at least, it is possible that violent revolution returns to Peru some day. This time you managed to destroy it. Next time, it might destroy you. As for the use of term "terrorist" in Middle East articles, this is and has been an extremely controversial matter for as long as Wikipedia has existed. -- Viajero 14:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It also show how Viajero only relies on Highly POV information about Peru, since not even here such comparations have been made.
Gross generalization and neoliberal propaganda. Completely unacceptable.
The Problem with State Owned Companies at the begining of the 90's is the fact that most of them were completely overcrowded by the former Administration (APRA). Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So you are saying you should be allowed to use this inflammatory word, but you understand why it's prohibited in matters where you don't have a partisan position? Sorry, but this is exactly why this is a word to avoid. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
About my previous statements, that are cited above by User:Viajero, I agree that can be controvertial. But I must also said that Viajero in any moment was willing to reach a compromise, and most of his attitude were stated in order to force me to reach that state. I'm a peruvian, And I find sad and in some cases offensive some arguments presented by someone who has not lived the reallity of my country and have a narrow POV about my country History. Effords to siminish the impact that the terrorist acts of Shinning Path or MRTA are simply annoyings, and information that are collected from highly biased Web pages (such as the one of Lori Berenson, an American-Born Terrorist) cannot be used in orther to present a Pseudo-NPOV article.
That is your opinion. That they have no prospered might have something to do with the fact that Peru can't extradite Fujimori.. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
regarding this statement that is being useing above against my person:
(Deleted due to irrelevant sources of information and becouse it increase the size of the talk page withouth apporting any reasonable information, just POV "periodistic" articles) Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Members of the board , I leave all my defense in this article and accuse
User:Viajero and
User:Jmabel of imposing his own Personal POV on the Fujimori Article, and clearly distortioned most of the articles related to the Civil War in Peru during the 80's.
There are no personal attacks by my part. If I have made a mistake, I have apologize for it. The fact that some of my arguments are used against myself are a clear view that they were forcing me to reach that level, and giving them some sort of proof that I'm the trouble maker. I totally dissagre with that and at the end I only look for the main reason that Wikipedia exist: A NPOV enciclopedia.
I already request several other users to help me to reach a compromise in the page, and I already stated a issue to lock down the page to protected from anybody who tryes to vandalice it.
Members of the Board, by this I conclude my defense. Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel, This is my space to defend against your accusations. Do not modify them
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What kind of defense he can gave, if he is being target of frequent modifications and rotten intentions? What kind of defense he has if there is people want to destroy it?. People like Viajero not lived on Peru, 90's was a decade in which Peru struggled to come back to stability. HappyApple 05:38, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have lived on this country for over two decades, i have saw the destruction that those criminals have made on my country on my city, and i must say they deserve that title, they were people who used terror, to come back rotten ideals of communism. HappyApple 06:11, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.
I am not "trying to ban" anyone. Viajero started a request for comment on Messhermit's behavior. I endorsed the accuracy of what he said. I am not disagreeing with Messhermit's being allowed to argue his substantive points. I endorsed Viajero's objection to being on the receiving end of personal attacks. Messhermit seems to be responding to that by making personal attacks on me as well, including an absolutely unfounded attack with reference to the West Bank article. If you look at my edits in Talk:Alberto Fujimori you will see that on substantive issues I had about as many criticisms of one version of the article as of the other. I came into this with no animus against Messhermit, but now that he is attacking my behavior, I am asking him either to retract those attacks or formalize them. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I also wish to point out that this RfC is not about whether to use the word "terrorist" in the article " Alberto Fujimori". As far as I am concerned, it is mainly about personal attacks. I believe that Messhermit has made enough of them on this RfC page to prove the point. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
Your attitude toward me is clearly partial.
You are clearly trying to make me look to all the other users as If I'm a constant trouble maker. Also I already stated that you have failed to prevent the use of the word "terrorism" in the West Bank Article, Wich clearly shows your lack of impartiality.
The fact that both of you are trying to use my "conduct" as a merely escuse to bann me from defending what I concidered to be right, Is even more un-ethical that my own statements.
As I already stated. Any ofensive action that I have ever made, I have appologise. (I might have made a terrible impression on the WEst Bank Article, but I clearly retract and started to reach compromise).
Aslo, Once again, if you have anything to say, don't do it in my defense. How can I defend If you keep distortioning my arguments? I consider that a clear attemp to evade what I must say. Messhermit 16:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel |
Talk 04:39, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
In response to my request that Messhermit either substantiate or retract his claim that I "sponsored" the use of the word "terrorism" on the
West Bank page, he modified "sponsored" to "allowed". His revised accusation against me is as follows.
User:Jmabel has "allowed" the use of the word "terrorism" 3 times on the West Bank Pages, and once "Palestinian Terrorism". In this article, He has failed (or has not seeing the use of this words) to provide an impartial judgement about the use of this words. Not objecting to the word "Terrorist" and not change that to rebels or any other NPOV word, is just having a double standar.
I think it is absurd to claim that the fact that I've commented on three issues on a talk page makes me personally responsible for the entire content of the article. That said, I will raise the issue there about unattributed use of the word "terrorism". Frankly, I hadn't noticed it. It was probably there before I watchlisted the article, and all of my comments on the talk page have been in response to specific edits, either to the talk page or to the article.
If further discussion of my conduct is in order, start an RfC about me. I will not further defend myself on this page. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:27, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like, in fact, the discussion here has been reasonably constructive and that editing of the article Alberto Fujimori is now moving forward in a manner typical of a controversial topic. I want to say specifically and clearly that Messhermit has, in the last few days, been much more cooperative in working on the article, and while he may not be the most cooperative Wikipedian I've seen, his behavior this last few days appears to me to be entirely within the range of the appropriate and acceptable. In particular, he seems to be refraining from further ad hominem attacks. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:45, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 17:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC).
Messhermit is an intractable POV warrior concerning the article Alberto Fujimori. Unwilling or unable to accept other peoples' points of view, he inists that only his version of the facts are correct and dismisses all documentary evidence contrary to it as "biased". In addition, he breaches wikipedia etiquette in trying to enforce his views.
Messhermit started contributing to Wikipedia in November, 2004, and has made some 75 edits. While he could potentially become a useful contributor to Wikipedia, he urgently needs to learn how to resolve editorial conflicts with users with whom he has ideological differences in a constructive, respectful fashion.
Together with another avowedly pro-Fujimori user, HappyApple ("i am supporter of the best president of all time" ( [1] edit summary: "We need your help on this cruzade (sic)"), Messhermit is attempting to whitewash various aspects of Fujimori's presidency in Fujimori article. Messhermit rejects virtually every piece of documentary evidence which contradicts his opinion of Fujimori. He appears unable to accept that other POVs in the world exist and that they need to be represented as well. He insists that his POV is the only acceptable one. In his frequent heated responses, Messhermit skirts precareously close to ad-hominen attacks, insisting his fellow editors know nothing about the subject matter.
In addition, Messhermit frequently turns disputes in Peruvian partisan politics, which has no place on the Talk pages of Wikipedia.
Some of the difficulties may arise from linguistic limitations, but this cannot account for all the problems he has collaborating with others.
(provide diffs and links)
More than what Viajero mentions above, I'm very unhappy with Messhermit's personal attacks on Viajero; the following quotations are all from Talk:Alberto Fujimori
Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(provide diffs and links)
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
The matter of dispute is not about the article of the former president itself, but about the sources and about most of the statements that they use to support their "politically motivated" edits. Until the end, I have tryed to reach compromise, but the only thing that User:Viajero can be satisfaied is by banning me and by seeing the article the way that they write it.
Viajero had said I only play partisan politics. That is not truth.
User Viajero is not whiling to arrange compromise in this article. Viajero continued to revert most of the my contributions without eveng bothering to explained why their were wrong. The article was in a poorly and totaly forgotten condition before my modifications were even there. In my first edits on the talk page(since I didn't Vandalize the page), I explained most of my mayor modifications.
But User:Viajero simply catalogate them as irrelevants and reverted to his previous work (withouth giving me enought explanations or explaining them on the Talk page). Unfortunately for me, Viajero didn't show up in the talk page and keep to revert the webpage every time that I tryed to stated something.
While I believe at the begining that most of his colaborations could be ussefull for the page too, I soon realize that he was already modifying other Peruvian-related pages, arranged them in a "politicaly correct" way that only satisfy their own POV.
I'm not champion of POV. I demand that to be retracted. Messhermit
This arrise by the fact that they "prefered" to call "Sendero Luminoso" and the "MRTA" as "rebels or guerrillas", disregarding completely what is the popular opinion of the peruvian people and what the most civilized nations undesrstad by those groups: "Terrorist Organizations". As you can see, this is an attemp by them to stated their own POV under the banner of "that is not a suitable word" to give legality to their attemps:
I accuse Viajero of using a double standard, judging things partially and using their own POV in most of those cases.
Viajero said also that I disregard most of the information of "Human Right" and "AP". I totaly respect any independent and well supported investigation. Unfortunately, most of the pages that User:Viajero has been using only show Personal Opinions of Reporters, most of them clearly against the former president. Those a POV, and cannot be used to reach a NPOV on Wikipedia, at least not by the concept that I have of NPOV.
And in those that involve the peruvian government, I have also give them enought evidence to make them qualify as merely POV.
As a matter of fact, I have get a lot of information from pages like the ones stated, but using only arguments regarding the history and events that happened during those times, wich are not questioned by both sides.
Lori Berenson is a very sencity topic for Peruvian Society. That Is why I felt offended when User:Viajero tryed to support some of his arguments with this. I request that this board made an explicit investigation about how "neutral" can be any source coming from the "FARC" or "Al-QUAEDA" webpages, since it was already stated that "even the devil can be quoted".
Also, Portratin the picture of the death terrorist does not help the webpage to achieve any other POV that accusing the former president of being the "mastermind" of those tragic events. I agree that they are extremely controvertial, but is an ongoing event (there is an investigation around it here in Peru) and should not be label so freely. My compromise was to create a special page that can discuss the events of the Japanesse Embassy, wich both Viajero refuse.
As you can see, probably the only mistake that I commit was getting offended by those arguments. I respect the "Human Rights" Assosiations, I respect any Neutral and independent source of information. But Viajero did not respect most of my ideas, only ignoring them and forcing me to apply a defensive possition.
I request the board that if any santion is applied, Viajero should be banned also in order to prevent further problems on this related topics. They have a clearly POV regarding this topics and have clearly failed to attemp to reach a compromise, since they will only be satisfied when their own words are writed in those articles.
Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Regarding about HappyApple and AAAAA, the fact that they don't share Viajero's POV appears to be enought motive to prevent them to express its oppinions on the talk page and any other page.
The fact that HappyApple is an ardent "Fujimorista" (Becouse I know him from several years) doesn't desquilify him to use Wikipedia. As a matter of fact, He is involved in other Peruvian related topics that have nothing to do with this at all.
The Quote that Viajero is using to describing him was writed on a personal page, wich has nothing to do with the article in question or the main motive for this discusion. If they have ever modify the Page, They have done it to prevent Viajero from imposing his own POV.
AAAAA is involved in a case appart with the User:Viajero regarding another Peruvian topic. There is also an Ongoing dispute regarding "Sendero Luminoso" betwen this two parts.
But I Investigate that Viajero and Jmabel are ussualy distortioning several Facts about Peruvian History and also have a common interest in blocking anything that AAAA was willing to collaborte..
Viajero Is using this as a way to censorate both, I don't agree. The Dispute involved only Viajero, Jmabel and me. I request this Board to leave them out of this dispute.
I have put on Black most of the quotes that I considerated them as offensive and higly Biased. This only contribute to create more controversy and not helping the main topic:
Sorry, I am not interested in debating Peruvian partisan politics in this forum. The facts about Fujimori are well known and documented, and that is what the bulk of this article should contain, as well as a small amount of space for presenting various interpretations of those facts. Politicians are politicians; most of them are corrupt or incompetent, albeit in Peru or any other country. If Peru had a extradition treaty with Japan, Fujimori would now be behind bars, where he belongs, sharing the view of the Callao harbor with Guzmán and Montesinos, and answering for his crimes like the two of them. And if he ever returns to Peru, he will be arrested, no? As for the privatizations, it was well-documented, in the Peruvian media, that of the some seven billion dollars raised by privatizations during the Fujimori era, only one billion ended up in the Peruvian treasury; the rest got spent on election campaigns, bribes, etc. Moreover, many of those state-owned enterprises, like the Cerro de Pasco mines, which I have visited, were sold far below market value to Fujimori's cronies, who have made a forture exploiting them. In a country as poor as Peru, that really is a crime. -- Viajero 21:53, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although I realize that Fujimori cannot be held responsible for all the actions of Montesinos, in this particular case, as you may recall, Fujimori took explict credit for the outcome, posing for the press amidst the bodies of the dead rebels. DO you remember those photos? Here is one: http://www.aprodeh.org.pe/mrta/web00.htm
Messhermit: the two Spanish-language quotations you gave, where are they from? I believe that you didn't just make them up, but who are you quoting? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
There are very, very few hard and fast rules in Wikipedia. There are, however, a number of useful guidelines for handling controversial topics, such as terrorism (see Wikipedia:Words to avoid). A substantial number of editors, such as Joe and me, prefer to avoid labelling people "terrorist" for reasons explained on that page and discussed at great length on many Talk pages; namely, that it is not a objective, scientific term and it depends largely on your point of view. My preference is to avoid using it where possible and use the worda "rebel" and "militant", and to speak instead of "terrorist acts", which is less ambiguous.How about simply presenting the facts and letting readers be the judge of whether people are "terrorists"? It is a form of intellectual laziness to simply moralize about these phenomena; it is far more useful to try to understand them. It would, IMO, behoove you to spend less time ranting about SL and MRTA and more time understanding why they came into being. Indeed, SL and MRTA have been erradicated, but the societal problems that led to their creation have not been addressed, and in fact today Peru is demonstrably worse off in many ways than it was ago in the 1970a. So, theoretically at least, it is possible that violent revolution returns to Peru some day. This time you managed to destroy it. Next time, it might destroy you. As for the use of term "terrorist" in Middle East articles, this is and has been an extremely controversial matter for as long as Wikipedia has existed. -- Viajero 14:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It also show how Viajero only relies on Highly POV information about Peru, since not even here such comparations have been made.
Gross generalization and neoliberal propaganda. Completely unacceptable.
The Problem with State Owned Companies at the begining of the 90's is the fact that most of them were completely overcrowded by the former Administration (APRA). Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So you are saying you should be allowed to use this inflammatory word, but you understand why it's prohibited in matters where you don't have a partisan position? Sorry, but this is exactly why this is a word to avoid. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
About my previous statements, that are cited above by User:Viajero, I agree that can be controvertial. But I must also said that Viajero in any moment was willing to reach a compromise, and most of his attitude were stated in order to force me to reach that state. I'm a peruvian, And I find sad and in some cases offensive some arguments presented by someone who has not lived the reallity of my country and have a narrow POV about my country History. Effords to siminish the impact that the terrorist acts of Shinning Path or MRTA are simply annoyings, and information that are collected from highly biased Web pages (such as the one of Lori Berenson, an American-Born Terrorist) cannot be used in orther to present a Pseudo-NPOV article.
That is your opinion. That they have no prospered might have something to do with the fact that Peru can't extradite Fujimori.. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
regarding this statement that is being useing above against my person:
(Deleted due to irrelevant sources of information and becouse it increase the size of the talk page withouth apporting any reasonable information, just POV "periodistic" articles) Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Members of the board , I leave all my defense in this article and accuse
User:Viajero and
User:Jmabel of imposing his own Personal POV on the Fujimori Article, and clearly distortioned most of the articles related to the Civil War in Peru during the 80's.
There are no personal attacks by my part. If I have made a mistake, I have apologize for it. The fact that some of my arguments are used against myself are a clear view that they were forcing me to reach that level, and giving them some sort of proof that I'm the trouble maker. I totally dissagre with that and at the end I only look for the main reason that Wikipedia exist: A NPOV enciclopedia.
I already request several other users to help me to reach a compromise in the page, and I already stated a issue to lock down the page to protected from anybody who tryes to vandalice it.
Members of the Board, by this I conclude my defense. Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel, This is my space to defend against your accusations. Do not modify them
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
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What kind of defense he can gave, if he is being target of frequent modifications and rotten intentions? What kind of defense he has if there is people want to destroy it?. People like Viajero not lived on Peru, 90's was a decade in which Peru struggled to come back to stability. HappyApple 05:38, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have lived on this country for over two decades, i have saw the destruction that those criminals have made on my country on my city, and i must say they deserve that title, they were people who used terror, to come back rotten ideals of communism. HappyApple 06:11, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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I am not "trying to ban" anyone. Viajero started a request for comment on Messhermit's behavior. I endorsed the accuracy of what he said. I am not disagreeing with Messhermit's being allowed to argue his substantive points. I endorsed Viajero's objection to being on the receiving end of personal attacks. Messhermit seems to be responding to that by making personal attacks on me as well, including an absolutely unfounded attack with reference to the West Bank article. If you look at my edits in Talk:Alberto Fujimori you will see that on substantive issues I had about as many criticisms of one version of the article as of the other. I came into this with no animus against Messhermit, but now that he is attacking my behavior, I am asking him either to retract those attacks or formalize them. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I also wish to point out that this RfC is not about whether to use the word "terrorist" in the article " Alberto Fujimori". As far as I am concerned, it is mainly about personal attacks. I believe that Messhermit has made enough of them on this RfC page to prove the point. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
Your attitude toward me is clearly partial.
You are clearly trying to make me look to all the other users as If I'm a constant trouble maker. Also I already stated that you have failed to prevent the use of the word "terrorism" in the West Bank Article, Wich clearly shows your lack of impartiality.
The fact that both of you are trying to use my "conduct" as a merely escuse to bann me from defending what I concidered to be right, Is even more un-ethical that my own statements.
As I already stated. Any ofensive action that I have ever made, I have appologise. (I might have made a terrible impression on the WEst Bank Article, but I clearly retract and started to reach compromise).
Aslo, Once again, if you have anything to say, don't do it in my defense. How can I defend If you keep distortioning my arguments? I consider that a clear attemp to evade what I must say. Messhermit 16:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel |
Talk 04:39, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
In response to my request that Messhermit either substantiate or retract his claim that I "sponsored" the use of the word "terrorism" on the
West Bank page, he modified "sponsored" to "allowed". His revised accusation against me is as follows.
User:Jmabel has "allowed" the use of the word "terrorism" 3 times on the West Bank Pages, and once "Palestinian Terrorism". In this article, He has failed (or has not seeing the use of this words) to provide an impartial judgement about the use of this words. Not objecting to the word "Terrorist" and not change that to rebels or any other NPOV word, is just having a double standar.
I think it is absurd to claim that the fact that I've commented on three issues on a talk page makes me personally responsible for the entire content of the article. That said, I will raise the issue there about unattributed use of the word "terrorism". Frankly, I hadn't noticed it. It was probably there before I watchlisted the article, and all of my comments on the talk page have been in response to specific edits, either to the talk page or to the article.
If further discussion of my conduct is in order, start an RfC about me. I will not further defend myself on this page. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:27, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like, in fact, the discussion here has been reasonably constructive and that editing of the article Alberto Fujimori is now moving forward in a manner typical of a controversial topic. I want to say specifically and clearly that Messhermit has, in the last few days, been much more cooperative in working on the article, and while he may not be the most cooperative Wikipedian I've seen, his behavior this last few days appears to me to be entirely within the range of the appropriate and acceptable. In particular, he seems to be refraining from further ad hominem attacks. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:45, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)