In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 21:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 00:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC).
Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.
Keepscases ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears not to be here to build an encyclopedia, in that the user appears to be excessively uncivil and continues to disrupt, soapbox, and bully candidate atheists at RfA, effectuating a chilling effect on atheistic potential candidates.
The user should cease trying to disrupt, soapbox, and bully candidate atheists at RfA (both WP:RFA and WT:RFA).
{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}
Here is a list of diffs that convince us that this user should not be editing RfA:
This user makes up nonsense reasons for supporting and opposing candidates, and asks nonsense questions that don't help the RfA in any way.
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
"[W]ithin an RfA, soapboxy questions, alikened across many RfAs, should be kept out of the discussion or otherwise banned" [2]
Users who endorse this summary:
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.
Jeff G. is being entirely disingenuous here. I have nothing against atheists, and I have made this clear countless times. My issue is with intentionally disrespectful, offensive, and inflammatory userboxes. I do not feel any user who believes it is a good idea to display such userboxes is the sort of person who should serve as an administrator.
I have the right to vote based on whatever criteria I choose. I am often forced to defend myself against other users who attack me for my votes...but it is those users who are responsible for the drama, and it is they who tend to be the uncivil ones.
I don't know why Jeff G. links to questions I've asked, given that they have absolutely nothing to do with what he's disputing, but I have the right to ask whatever questions I wish at RfAs, and in plenty of instances they've been appreciated by the candidates and/or been quite helpful in their evaluation.
Finally, I will mention that Jeff G.'s claim of me being responsible for a "chilling effect" couldn't possibly be more wrong. I don't want to censor anyone--I think users should be able to create and display whatever userboxes they wish--and it has consistently amazed me that supposed free speech advocates seem to believe that it's somehow inappropriate to judge someone based on words and attitudes he or she conveys.
Users who endorse this summary:
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.
Keepscases has a long history of tendentious edits such as religion based remarks and nonsense questions. I note that he has been blocked for this previously. When AGF is applied to this user's edits and people try to explain to him the problem with his edits, he becomes very hostile and argumentative, with a strong sense of entitlement and sometimes outright attacks. Sure, he has a right to express his opinions, however this has caused an inordinate amount of disruption and he continues nevertheless and this has been going on for years. Keepscases is toeing a very fine line here, between merely expressing his opinion and outright trolling. However given that this has been going on for years it is becoming more difficult to assume good faith that it's not the latter. With edits such as this and this, I believe Keepscases is on a slow route to a permaban.
Users who endorse this summary:
Topic ban Keepscases from RfA as well as WT:RfA. Keepscases participation there is a constant cause for disruption and does not help the discussion.
Users who endorse this summary:
Having a minority viewpoint should not result in a topic ban from RFA. From what I see, the disruption is caused not by the initial oppose !vote, but with certain users response to his !vote. People just need to relax, let the !vote stand without arguing about it, and if the candidate is highly qualified one unpopular oppose !vote won't make a difference.
Users who endorse this summary:
Look, Keepcases is annoying. We all agree on this. Editors like Keepcases lack any value to this project. In fact, editors like Keepcases are really kind of sad. But aside from that, who takes this character seriously? Anyone? I don't, and I doubt many others do. But topic banning is just a waste of time, and probably exactly what this guy is after. Heck, I bet this RfC made his day too. Ignore the trolls. Focus on the content.
Users who endorse this summary:
I will largely say what I said on ANI: We cannot go around telling people for what reasons they are allowed to !vote and for what not. There are many reasons why someone decides to oppose or support a candidate and none are shared by everyone. Age? Featured content? Deletion work? Everyone has their own set of criteria and that's fine. RFA is a discussion and everyone should be allowed to put forward their reasons why they feel a candidate is qualified or unqualified for the mop. There cannot be, per definition of the nature of RFA, no "illegal" !votes that are not allowed. There can only be such that have no consensus with the rest of the community (such as Keepscases') but they are not a reason to ban someone from RFA.
Disrupting users are what you have to deal with on a project such as this one and Keepscases knows full well what reaction he causes. But that is not the problem. We cannot blame Keepscases for this reaction. While he can anticipate it or might even like to see what impact his irrelevant !votes have, it's those who are baited by those !votes to reply, mostly to defend the candidate (while candidates usually have simply ignored these !votes or left comments in the style described at Wikipedia:Thank you for your vote), who are causing the real disruption (just see the amount of discussion created by such !votes at my own RFA here and here). A !vote, however irrelevant, will not do any damage at all. No serious admin candidate will think less of himself because of it and no experienced user will think it's a valid reason anyway.
We have now wasted countless hours, on RFAs, WT:RFA, WP:ANI and now here to discuss something that is not worth discussing. In all those hours, we could have cleaned up thousands of articles, written new DYKs, expanded articles, cleaned up BLPs, etc. We could have just decided to ignore Keepscases' !votes and done something worthwhile (like Keepscases could have done as well instead of defending his !votes time and time again) but instead we have chosen to succumb to the drama we seem to love so much. And now, that we cannot stop these !votes, some people are using all possible venues to chastise Keepscases for them without realizing that these tries, even if successful, will not bring back all the time we wasted on them. We have made the mistake with Kmweber and with DougsTech before. Yet we seem to have not learnt a single thing from them...
Users who endorse this summary:
I presume as a default position that this RfC is raised in good faith, but I disagree with it for several reasons:
There are diffs that show I have specifically defended Keepscases in the past on this matter; if anyone cares, I can dig them up. Nevertheless, my view is primarily in support of the community process rather than in support of any individual.
Users who endorse this summary:
I've supported Keeps right to oppose based upon user boxes above and I stand by that support. That being said, I think Keeps should keep in mind that many people don't think about offending others when they see a user box that causes them to smile or chuckle. While I disagree with some of the user boxes, some of them are clever (e.g. the one that reads to the effect of "I don't believe in God, who are you to disagree with his wisdom"... agree or disagree, it's clever.) As such, I think some of the people who have those user boxes that offend Keeps did not add them to be offensive or derogatory, but rather simply because they didn't see the problem/issue. As such, the question for me, is what does the person do when confronted with such a concern? Do they get defensive or do they remove the user box out of concern for others. IMO, if they remove the user box when a concern is raised, we should assume good faith, and judge the candidate on their current setting. If they have a user box, and are confronted with a concern and do nothing, then that is the time to oppose. If a person is willing to listen to criticism and act on it, judge them on how they respond.
Users who endorse this summary:
In a previous Administrators' Noticeboard discussion regarding Keepscases I supported a topic ban but not a full ban from the encyclopedia. Whether Keepscases is being intentionally disruptive or not, their contributions at RfAs usually act to distract from the discussion and cause unnecessary drama. WP:DFTT was brought up as a defense, saying that those who respond to Keepscases' comments and questions are the ones who are truly being disruptive, and while it's true that ignoring them would effectively end the problems, how is this to be done? From a practical perspective, is someone supposed to follow Keepscases and post a disclaimer? I've suggested that Keepscases focus on having offensive userboxes removed from Wikipedia, and in fact I agree with Keepscases as to whether or not such userboxes are disruptive. But protesting them at an RfA is disrupting to make a point, especially when so many people have expressed concerns about Keepscases' RfA contributions and have been ignored.
For practical purposes I recommend a topic ban from RfAs. I think it is better for the community and prevents further drama while also allowing Keepscases to edit in other areas of Wikipedia, including advocacy against the userboxes that are considered offensive.
Users who endorse this summary:
Context is important. Look at some of the diffs presented for this RfC. The first diff refers directly to something the candidate had said, and is a valid question. The third diff refers to something the candidate said at the RfA, and that comment is trivial compared to many at the same RfA. The fourth is a reasonable oppose based on a probably tasteless UBX, etc etc. Let's look at a few that aren't straight-forwardley acceptable. Try the Haiku diff for Ottava Rima's RfA. The candidate says "Ask whatever questions you want. If you want followups, I would suggest you simply linking to the talk page so a conversation can happen there. If you want to oppose me, feel free. I wont hold anything against anyone nor challenge it. If other people want to badger opposers (or even badger supporters!) that's fine." I politely ask the creators of this RfC to be a bit more careful with their selection of diffs. Find the diffs where keepscases is rude or is not connected to something said by the candidate and I'll spend my time trawling through them. I'd also ask keepcases to tone down language at RfA; comments such as "pompous" aren't helpful.
Users who endorse this summary:
There are two aspects of Keepscases behaviour that have been brought up in this RFC, and a third that I will raise.
Users who endorse this summary:
I'm rather hurt that I didn't have to explain an interpretive dance in a haiku written in upside-down Unicode in the course of my RFA. If the diffs in this RFC had been restricted to the "anti-atheist" comments, there might have been grounds for complaint, but a large number of those diffs are amusing at worst.
Users who endorse this summary:
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 21:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 00:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC).
Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.
Keepscases ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears not to be here to build an encyclopedia, in that the user appears to be excessively uncivil and continues to disrupt, soapbox, and bully candidate atheists at RfA, effectuating a chilling effect on atheistic potential candidates.
The user should cease trying to disrupt, soapbox, and bully candidate atheists at RfA (both WP:RFA and WT:RFA).
{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}
Here is a list of diffs that convince us that this user should not be editing RfA:
This user makes up nonsense reasons for supporting and opposing candidates, and asks nonsense questions that don't help the RfA in any way.
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
"[W]ithin an RfA, soapboxy questions, alikened across many RfAs, should be kept out of the discussion or otherwise banned" [2]
Users who endorse this summary:
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.
Jeff G. is being entirely disingenuous here. I have nothing against atheists, and I have made this clear countless times. My issue is with intentionally disrespectful, offensive, and inflammatory userboxes. I do not feel any user who believes it is a good idea to display such userboxes is the sort of person who should serve as an administrator.
I have the right to vote based on whatever criteria I choose. I am often forced to defend myself against other users who attack me for my votes...but it is those users who are responsible for the drama, and it is they who tend to be the uncivil ones.
I don't know why Jeff G. links to questions I've asked, given that they have absolutely nothing to do with what he's disputing, but I have the right to ask whatever questions I wish at RfAs, and in plenty of instances they've been appreciated by the candidates and/or been quite helpful in their evaluation.
Finally, I will mention that Jeff G.'s claim of me being responsible for a "chilling effect" couldn't possibly be more wrong. I don't want to censor anyone--I think users should be able to create and display whatever userboxes they wish--and it has consistently amazed me that supposed free speech advocates seem to believe that it's somehow inappropriate to judge someone based on words and attitudes he or she conveys.
Users who endorse this summary:
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.
Keepscases has a long history of tendentious edits such as religion based remarks and nonsense questions. I note that he has been blocked for this previously. When AGF is applied to this user's edits and people try to explain to him the problem with his edits, he becomes very hostile and argumentative, with a strong sense of entitlement and sometimes outright attacks. Sure, he has a right to express his opinions, however this has caused an inordinate amount of disruption and he continues nevertheless and this has been going on for years. Keepscases is toeing a very fine line here, between merely expressing his opinion and outright trolling. However given that this has been going on for years it is becoming more difficult to assume good faith that it's not the latter. With edits such as this and this, I believe Keepscases is on a slow route to a permaban.
Users who endorse this summary:
Topic ban Keepscases from RfA as well as WT:RfA. Keepscases participation there is a constant cause for disruption and does not help the discussion.
Users who endorse this summary:
Having a minority viewpoint should not result in a topic ban from RFA. From what I see, the disruption is caused not by the initial oppose !vote, but with certain users response to his !vote. People just need to relax, let the !vote stand without arguing about it, and if the candidate is highly qualified one unpopular oppose !vote won't make a difference.
Users who endorse this summary:
Look, Keepcases is annoying. We all agree on this. Editors like Keepcases lack any value to this project. In fact, editors like Keepcases are really kind of sad. But aside from that, who takes this character seriously? Anyone? I don't, and I doubt many others do. But topic banning is just a waste of time, and probably exactly what this guy is after. Heck, I bet this RfC made his day too. Ignore the trolls. Focus on the content.
Users who endorse this summary:
I will largely say what I said on ANI: We cannot go around telling people for what reasons they are allowed to !vote and for what not. There are many reasons why someone decides to oppose or support a candidate and none are shared by everyone. Age? Featured content? Deletion work? Everyone has their own set of criteria and that's fine. RFA is a discussion and everyone should be allowed to put forward their reasons why they feel a candidate is qualified or unqualified for the mop. There cannot be, per definition of the nature of RFA, no "illegal" !votes that are not allowed. There can only be such that have no consensus with the rest of the community (such as Keepscases') but they are not a reason to ban someone from RFA.
Disrupting users are what you have to deal with on a project such as this one and Keepscases knows full well what reaction he causes. But that is not the problem. We cannot blame Keepscases for this reaction. While he can anticipate it or might even like to see what impact his irrelevant !votes have, it's those who are baited by those !votes to reply, mostly to defend the candidate (while candidates usually have simply ignored these !votes or left comments in the style described at Wikipedia:Thank you for your vote), who are causing the real disruption (just see the amount of discussion created by such !votes at my own RFA here and here). A !vote, however irrelevant, will not do any damage at all. No serious admin candidate will think less of himself because of it and no experienced user will think it's a valid reason anyway.
We have now wasted countless hours, on RFAs, WT:RFA, WP:ANI and now here to discuss something that is not worth discussing. In all those hours, we could have cleaned up thousands of articles, written new DYKs, expanded articles, cleaned up BLPs, etc. We could have just decided to ignore Keepscases' !votes and done something worthwhile (like Keepscases could have done as well instead of defending his !votes time and time again) but instead we have chosen to succumb to the drama we seem to love so much. And now, that we cannot stop these !votes, some people are using all possible venues to chastise Keepscases for them without realizing that these tries, even if successful, will not bring back all the time we wasted on them. We have made the mistake with Kmweber and with DougsTech before. Yet we seem to have not learnt a single thing from them...
Users who endorse this summary:
I presume as a default position that this RfC is raised in good faith, but I disagree with it for several reasons:
There are diffs that show I have specifically defended Keepscases in the past on this matter; if anyone cares, I can dig them up. Nevertheless, my view is primarily in support of the community process rather than in support of any individual.
Users who endorse this summary:
I've supported Keeps right to oppose based upon user boxes above and I stand by that support. That being said, I think Keeps should keep in mind that many people don't think about offending others when they see a user box that causes them to smile or chuckle. While I disagree with some of the user boxes, some of them are clever (e.g. the one that reads to the effect of "I don't believe in God, who are you to disagree with his wisdom"... agree or disagree, it's clever.) As such, I think some of the people who have those user boxes that offend Keeps did not add them to be offensive or derogatory, but rather simply because they didn't see the problem/issue. As such, the question for me, is what does the person do when confronted with such a concern? Do they get defensive or do they remove the user box out of concern for others. IMO, if they remove the user box when a concern is raised, we should assume good faith, and judge the candidate on their current setting. If they have a user box, and are confronted with a concern and do nothing, then that is the time to oppose. If a person is willing to listen to criticism and act on it, judge them on how they respond.
Users who endorse this summary:
In a previous Administrators' Noticeboard discussion regarding Keepscases I supported a topic ban but not a full ban from the encyclopedia. Whether Keepscases is being intentionally disruptive or not, their contributions at RfAs usually act to distract from the discussion and cause unnecessary drama. WP:DFTT was brought up as a defense, saying that those who respond to Keepscases' comments and questions are the ones who are truly being disruptive, and while it's true that ignoring them would effectively end the problems, how is this to be done? From a practical perspective, is someone supposed to follow Keepscases and post a disclaimer? I've suggested that Keepscases focus on having offensive userboxes removed from Wikipedia, and in fact I agree with Keepscases as to whether or not such userboxes are disruptive. But protesting them at an RfA is disrupting to make a point, especially when so many people have expressed concerns about Keepscases' RfA contributions and have been ignored.
For practical purposes I recommend a topic ban from RfAs. I think it is better for the community and prevents further drama while also allowing Keepscases to edit in other areas of Wikipedia, including advocacy against the userboxes that are considered offensive.
Users who endorse this summary:
Context is important. Look at some of the diffs presented for this RfC. The first diff refers directly to something the candidate had said, and is a valid question. The third diff refers to something the candidate said at the RfA, and that comment is trivial compared to many at the same RfA. The fourth is a reasonable oppose based on a probably tasteless UBX, etc etc. Let's look at a few that aren't straight-forwardley acceptable. Try the Haiku diff for Ottava Rima's RfA. The candidate says "Ask whatever questions you want. If you want followups, I would suggest you simply linking to the talk page so a conversation can happen there. If you want to oppose me, feel free. I wont hold anything against anyone nor challenge it. If other people want to badger opposers (or even badger supporters!) that's fine." I politely ask the creators of this RfC to be a bit more careful with their selection of diffs. Find the diffs where keepscases is rude or is not connected to something said by the candidate and I'll spend my time trawling through them. I'd also ask keepcases to tone down language at RfA; comments such as "pompous" aren't helpful.
Users who endorse this summary:
There are two aspects of Keepscases behaviour that have been brought up in this RFC, and a third that I will raise.
Users who endorse this summary:
I'm rather hurt that I didn't have to explain an interpretive dance in a haiku written in upside-down Unicode in the course of my RFA. If the diffs in this RFC had been restricted to the "anti-atheist" comments, there might have been grounds for complaint, but a large number of those diffs are amusing at worst.
Users who endorse this summary:
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.