In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), its subject may request for the page to be deleted. The current date and time is: 19:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC).
Please note that this RfC has been superseded by a Request for arbitration. Comments from other parties are welcomed.
This dispute is with user Emico about his ("his" assumed for conciseness) disruptive behaviour on Wikipedia: repeated reversion of accepted edits in favour of his strongly POV stance; failure to abide by Wikipedia guidelines while editing articles and contributing to associated Talk pages; personal attacks against various users; and breach of the 3 revert rule.
Emico has been making extreme POV edits, apparently on religious grounds, to Iglesia ni Cristo, Bereans and related articles. He has also personally attacked anyone opposed to his edits, including the editors of Bereans. This has extended to editors such as Raygirvan who joined the discussion as a response to the [1] request for comment.
The behaviour appears to stem from a dispute between the Philippine religious organisations The Bereans [2] and Iglesia ni Cristo. Emico's user page indicates that he supports the latter, and this appears to bias his edits of the Bereans article. He treats any reference to the Philippine Bereans, however worded, as unacceptably favourable to them, and this bias extends to the historical Bereans (a defunct 19th century Scottish sect) where he repeatedly edits in unsubstantiated claims of a continuity with the modern USA-based Berean church.
A particular complaint is disruptive editing of the Bereans page: refusal to abide by repeated requests to Cite sources, to write with a Neutral point of view and to avoid original research. He has repeatedly reverted to early edits of the page, deleting cited sources and links, category information and other users' contributions. His edit summaries list as "vandalism" edits by those who dispute his version of the page, and he has several times asserted that critics of his claims and Wikipedia conduct are members of the Bereans that the page describes.
(provide diffs and links)
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.} Users lbmixpro and onlytofind colluded to get around wikipedia rules. Emico 15:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When asked why he reverted my edits, he replied "I don't know what you are talking about. Nor do I care. I made the revert so that Onlytofind won't get the Bereans article locked". His excuse was that he did'nt really made the effort to understand what he was reverting, nor if it was prudent to revert without first investigating. Basically, his defense was ignorance. Bottom line, he took one side against another, and reverted for another user to get around the wilipedia 3 revert rule. Emico 15:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another display of lbmixpro's bias are his complaints against my "attitude". I'd like to see him call out onlytofind's insults. don't be a johnny come lately again.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Hello, I have been a frequent editor and contributor to the Iglesia ni Cristo, Erano Manalo and Felix Manalo articles. Reading the description on Emico's userpage shows his bias and desire for preferential treatment towards the Iglesia ni Cristo and personnel inside the Iglesia ni Cristo. The Bereans (based in the Philippines) and the church of Ang Dating Daan are two organizations who oppose the teachings of the Iglesia ni Cristo, and Emico has shown extreme bias against those organizations, placing personal comments and opinions inside of the articles relating to those groups. I am a former member of the Iglesia ni Cristo, and have added positive and negative information, to the best of my knowledge in the article, and Emico has consistently accused me of being affiliated with the latter two organizations although I am not. I have spoken to him on numerous occasions about this, and it seems that he will not relent in his behavior. I concur with Raygirvan that this kind of behavior is detrimental to the Wikipedia, and I implore the sysops to do something about Emico. Thank you.-- Onlytofind 04:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.
While I certify the basis for this dispute, I do not believe that User:Emico yet deserves serious action. A short block in response to any further violations of 3RR might be applicable. DJ Clayworth 01:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. I think that behaviour like this poisons the functioning of Wikipedia. As well as failing to abide by simple conventions such as citing sources, this user is so deeply biased - if you disagree, you're instantly accused of being a member of the organisation that's his idee fixe - that it's hard to see how any compromise could be reached. RayGirvan 03:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I've changed my mind. Emico is clearly not listening to reason. He deserves exclusion until he learns to handle cases where his personal viewpoint does not match up with the consensus. DJ Clayworth 13:37, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
After reading this page, he has come back with renewed vigor in insulting others and pushing his ignorance upon the Wikipedia. I would like to see him expelled from Wikipedia, and the Bereans, Felix Manalo and Erano Manalo articles locked.-- Onlytofind 21:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Emico's attitude and personal attacks have brought me to the conclusion of agreeing with the above in referring Emico to the Arbitration Committee, for further action. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 05:24, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
It seems that Emico has gotten wise to us, and thinks that by not logging in, he can fool everyone into thinking that it's not him who's doing this. I propose a lock on the Bereans, Felix Manalo and Erano Manalo articles once we can get consensus on the latter two. (moved to discussion sub-section area by LBMixPro (Speak on it!))
Search for "agustinongpinoy" or "agustinong pinoy" in Google and you'll find out Emico does it everywhere, not just here. He even has faked using someone else's identity. ( Contribution posted by Onlytofind - it's best if we only list things happening in Wikipedia.)
Accoring Emico's responce, he states I reverted the page per request of Onlytofind. He hasn't posted my complete statement:
"I don't know what you are talking about. Nor do I care. I made the revert so that Onlytofind won't get the Bereans article locked. Just like User:DJ_Clayworth told you, Wikipedia has a three revert rule, which can cause either you to be temporarily banned from Wikipedia, or the article you're reverting to be locked. It's what Wikipedia does, and whether or not is fair doesn't matter. Also, I reverted it because the original edit contained more repuatble sources than yours. Removing large parts of the article without good reason and consensus is not what you do here."
Along with that statement, my replies at the 17:56, May 31, 2005 verion of talk:bereans gives the full reason for my involvement in the Bereans article.
The diff between the revert in question explains itself. He ommited critical elements of the article's structure -- such as category listings, and references --, which was my primary reason for reversion. Although I didn't completely read his revision, that diff alone was grounds of reversion. Onlytofind had no knowlege of my reversion prior to it.
FYI: Assuming Emico was correct in his claims, WP:3RR states: 3RR specifically does not apply to groups. If the edit really needs reverting, somebody else will probably do it—and that will serve the vital purpose of showing that the community at large is in agreement over which of two competing versions is correct. Therefore my reversion would be still valid based on that guideline. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 20:13, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I missed the part where you rule over everyone else. of course we all agree you have authority on this article, and so what you decreed is final and binding. Although, if I may say so, mediating and investigation before butting in would have been better for resolving things. But that's just me.
How do you know the source are refutable if you did'nt read them.
Nice ending, but self serving, as usual. Emico 20:33, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another display of lbmixpro's bias are his complaints against my "attitude". I'd like to see him call out onlytofind's insults. don't be a johnny come lately again. Emico 15:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Current situation: the Bereans article seems to have settled to a steady and NPOV state. However, given that the personal abuse is still going on, both in discussions here and on the Talk page, I'm not confident that Emico won't start reverting it again the moment the spotlight is off. It shouldn't be forgotten that this problem extends across several other articles (for instance, see here) where he is continuing to try to bring a specific religious POV: slanting articles in favour of the Iglesia ni Cristo church. This has seen a lot of wasted verbiage for a small article, but the issue is about flouting a central Wikipedia convention. RayGirvan 11:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Based on recent developments, I have now reached a resolution in the NPA issue as far as I'm concerned. This is what's written in the 21:30, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC) version of User Talk:Emico From now on, I'll assume good faith about your posts. But you should note that all articles are subject to WP's guideines and policies. As far as I'm concerned, my primary reason for disupte is now resolved, since I expect no more trash talk (at least toward me). But that doesn't prevent anybody from taking further action against you for any other reason. Remember each action made is part of the Resolution process, just as I said that the RfC. Arbitration is only another form of trying to get our issues settled. -- Just look at the WP entry for the term "Arbitration". The Arbitration committee may react in your favor, if your future edits to WP are in the best interests of WP. Also there are other Wikipedia-like sites which you may find more productive and enjoyable. Wikipedia isn't the only "free encyclopedia". --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 21:30, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
Emico has broken the uneasy peace that we have had, and is trying to bait me by bolding a previous insult I made to him on the Erano Manalo talk page, even though I declared a moratorium on insults a few days back; and he insists on bringing up something I did a month ago, even though he has frequently made personal attacks on us since then. I told him to get his behavior in check or I would report him to arbitration, and he baited me once again and accused me of "threatening him." I understand the Wikistress this is causing each of us, but I can't rest until this ordeal is finally over.-- Onlytofind 03:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please note that the reason I 'bolded' the comment was to highlight Onlytofinds ungentlemanly conduct which incites flame wars on the discussion page. In the above mentioned talk page, when asked to cite sources for the article, after a few exchanges, this is what Onlytofind posted - In short, you're some deranged INC fanboy who's depressed because he's unable to cover his bias with a cloak of legitimacy. Have a nice day. --Onlytofind 22:55, 4 May 2005 (UTC). This 'bolding' was made after another round of threats. I intentionally ignore his namecalling and rude post because I was sure he was baiting me. This will be my last post concerning this matter. I do not intend to spend anymore time arguing with Onlytofind. -- Emico 04:28, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please also check the Iglesia ni Cristo talk page where one contributor noted Onlytofind 'strongly implied' I was illiterate. Note also I did not respond to this personal attack and flame bait. -- Emico 04:40, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), its subject may request for the page to be deleted. The current date and time is: 19:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC).
Please note that this RfC has been superseded by a Request for arbitration. Comments from other parties are welcomed.
This dispute is with user Emico about his ("his" assumed for conciseness) disruptive behaviour on Wikipedia: repeated reversion of accepted edits in favour of his strongly POV stance; failure to abide by Wikipedia guidelines while editing articles and contributing to associated Talk pages; personal attacks against various users; and breach of the 3 revert rule.
Emico has been making extreme POV edits, apparently on religious grounds, to Iglesia ni Cristo, Bereans and related articles. He has also personally attacked anyone opposed to his edits, including the editors of Bereans. This has extended to editors such as Raygirvan who joined the discussion as a response to the [1] request for comment.
The behaviour appears to stem from a dispute between the Philippine religious organisations The Bereans [2] and Iglesia ni Cristo. Emico's user page indicates that he supports the latter, and this appears to bias his edits of the Bereans article. He treats any reference to the Philippine Bereans, however worded, as unacceptably favourable to them, and this bias extends to the historical Bereans (a defunct 19th century Scottish sect) where he repeatedly edits in unsubstantiated claims of a continuity with the modern USA-based Berean church.
A particular complaint is disruptive editing of the Bereans page: refusal to abide by repeated requests to Cite sources, to write with a Neutral point of view and to avoid original research. He has repeatedly reverted to early edits of the page, deleting cited sources and links, category information and other users' contributions. His edit summaries list as "vandalism" edits by those who dispute his version of the page, and he has several times asserted that critics of his claims and Wikipedia conduct are members of the Bereans that the page describes.
(provide diffs and links)
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(sign with ~~~~)
(sign with ~~~~)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.} Users lbmixpro and onlytofind colluded to get around wikipedia rules. Emico 15:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When asked why he reverted my edits, he replied "I don't know what you are talking about. Nor do I care. I made the revert so that Onlytofind won't get the Bereans article locked". His excuse was that he did'nt really made the effort to understand what he was reverting, nor if it was prudent to revert without first investigating. Basically, his defense was ignorance. Bottom line, he took one side against another, and reverted for another user to get around the wilipedia 3 revert rule. Emico 15:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another display of lbmixpro's bias are his complaints against my "attitude". I'd like to see him call out onlytofind's insults. don't be a johnny come lately again.
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
Hello, I have been a frequent editor and contributor to the Iglesia ni Cristo, Erano Manalo and Felix Manalo articles. Reading the description on Emico's userpage shows his bias and desire for preferential treatment towards the Iglesia ni Cristo and personnel inside the Iglesia ni Cristo. The Bereans (based in the Philippines) and the church of Ang Dating Daan are two organizations who oppose the teachings of the Iglesia ni Cristo, and Emico has shown extreme bias against those organizations, placing personal comments and opinions inside of the articles relating to those groups. I am a former member of the Iglesia ni Cristo, and have added positive and negative information, to the best of my knowledge in the article, and Emico has consistently accused me of being affiliated with the latter two organizations although I am not. I have spoken to him on numerous occasions about this, and it seems that he will not relent in his behavior. I concur with Raygirvan that this kind of behavior is detrimental to the Wikipedia, and I implore the sysops to do something about Emico. Thank you.-- Onlytofind 04:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.
While I certify the basis for this dispute, I do not believe that User:Emico yet deserves serious action. A short block in response to any further violations of 3RR might be applicable. DJ Clayworth 01:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. I think that behaviour like this poisons the functioning of Wikipedia. As well as failing to abide by simple conventions such as citing sources, this user is so deeply biased - if you disagree, you're instantly accused of being a member of the organisation that's his idee fixe - that it's hard to see how any compromise could be reached. RayGirvan 03:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I've changed my mind. Emico is clearly not listening to reason. He deserves exclusion until he learns to handle cases where his personal viewpoint does not match up with the consensus. DJ Clayworth 13:37, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
After reading this page, he has come back with renewed vigor in insulting others and pushing his ignorance upon the Wikipedia. I would like to see him expelled from Wikipedia, and the Bereans, Felix Manalo and Erano Manalo articles locked.-- Onlytofind 21:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Emico's attitude and personal attacks have brought me to the conclusion of agreeing with the above in referring Emico to the Arbitration Committee, for further action. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 05:24, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
It seems that Emico has gotten wise to us, and thinks that by not logging in, he can fool everyone into thinking that it's not him who's doing this. I propose a lock on the Bereans, Felix Manalo and Erano Manalo articles once we can get consensus on the latter two. (moved to discussion sub-section area by LBMixPro (Speak on it!))
Search for "agustinongpinoy" or "agustinong pinoy" in Google and you'll find out Emico does it everywhere, not just here. He even has faked using someone else's identity. ( Contribution posted by Onlytofind - it's best if we only list things happening in Wikipedia.)
Accoring Emico's responce, he states I reverted the page per request of Onlytofind. He hasn't posted my complete statement:
"I don't know what you are talking about. Nor do I care. I made the revert so that Onlytofind won't get the Bereans article locked. Just like User:DJ_Clayworth told you, Wikipedia has a three revert rule, which can cause either you to be temporarily banned from Wikipedia, or the article you're reverting to be locked. It's what Wikipedia does, and whether or not is fair doesn't matter. Also, I reverted it because the original edit contained more repuatble sources than yours. Removing large parts of the article without good reason and consensus is not what you do here."
Along with that statement, my replies at the 17:56, May 31, 2005 verion of talk:bereans gives the full reason for my involvement in the Bereans article.
The diff between the revert in question explains itself. He ommited critical elements of the article's structure -- such as category listings, and references --, which was my primary reason for reversion. Although I didn't completely read his revision, that diff alone was grounds of reversion. Onlytofind had no knowlege of my reversion prior to it.
FYI: Assuming Emico was correct in his claims, WP:3RR states: 3RR specifically does not apply to groups. If the edit really needs reverting, somebody else will probably do it—and that will serve the vital purpose of showing that the community at large is in agreement over which of two competing versions is correct. Therefore my reversion would be still valid based on that guideline. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 20:13, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I missed the part where you rule over everyone else. of course we all agree you have authority on this article, and so what you decreed is final and binding. Although, if I may say so, mediating and investigation before butting in would have been better for resolving things. But that's just me.
How do you know the source are refutable if you did'nt read them.
Nice ending, but self serving, as usual. Emico 20:33, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another display of lbmixpro's bias are his complaints against my "attitude". I'd like to see him call out onlytofind's insults. don't be a johnny come lately again. Emico 15:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Current situation: the Bereans article seems to have settled to a steady and NPOV state. However, given that the personal abuse is still going on, both in discussions here and on the Talk page, I'm not confident that Emico won't start reverting it again the moment the spotlight is off. It shouldn't be forgotten that this problem extends across several other articles (for instance, see here) where he is continuing to try to bring a specific religious POV: slanting articles in favour of the Iglesia ni Cristo church. This has seen a lot of wasted verbiage for a small article, but the issue is about flouting a central Wikipedia convention. RayGirvan 11:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Based on recent developments, I have now reached a resolution in the NPA issue as far as I'm concerned. This is what's written in the 21:30, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC) version of User Talk:Emico From now on, I'll assume good faith about your posts. But you should note that all articles are subject to WP's guideines and policies. As far as I'm concerned, my primary reason for disupte is now resolved, since I expect no more trash talk (at least toward me). But that doesn't prevent anybody from taking further action against you for any other reason. Remember each action made is part of the Resolution process, just as I said that the RfC. Arbitration is only another form of trying to get our issues settled. -- Just look at the WP entry for the term "Arbitration". The Arbitration committee may react in your favor, if your future edits to WP are in the best interests of WP. Also there are other Wikipedia-like sites which you may find more productive and enjoyable. Wikipedia isn't the only "free encyclopedia". --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 21:30, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
Emico has broken the uneasy peace that we have had, and is trying to bait me by bolding a previous insult I made to him on the Erano Manalo talk page, even though I declared a moratorium on insults a few days back; and he insists on bringing up something I did a month ago, even though he has frequently made personal attacks on us since then. I told him to get his behavior in check or I would report him to arbitration, and he baited me once again and accused me of "threatening him." I understand the Wikistress this is causing each of us, but I can't rest until this ordeal is finally over.-- Onlytofind 03:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please note that the reason I 'bolded' the comment was to highlight Onlytofinds ungentlemanly conduct which incites flame wars on the discussion page. In the above mentioned talk page, when asked to cite sources for the article, after a few exchanges, this is what Onlytofind posted - In short, you're some deranged INC fanboy who's depressed because he's unable to cover his bias with a cloak of legitimacy. Have a nice day. --Onlytofind 22:55, 4 May 2005 (UTC). This 'bolding' was made after another round of threats. I intentionally ignore his namecalling and rude post because I was sure he was baiting me. This will be my last post concerning this matter. I do not intend to spend anymore time arguing with Onlytofind. -- Emico 04:28, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please also check the Iglesia ni Cristo talk page where one contributor noted Onlytofind 'strongly implied' I was illiterate. Note also I did not respond to this personal attack and flame bait. -- Emico 04:40, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)