Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please choose an appropriate header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.
It is extremely important in order that your submitted evidence be considered by the Arbitrators that when you cite evidence to provide a link to the exact edit which displays the transaction, links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=0&oldid=5584644] [1].
This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.
If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Please do this under a seperate header, to seperate your response from the original evidence.
Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please voice your objections on the talk page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others.
I don't mind Netoholic listing the page on VfD (I actually suggested he do this on his talk page [2] - don't bother looking on his main talk page however, because he "archives" all negative comments to the page history, which though valid sort of makes me wonder what he's hiding!) but I do dislike him shifting around my comments from the VfD page. It's never been correct to shift comments to the talk page, and I question why he did this. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic removed a user's signed comments in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion
Originally Netaholic wanted his archive pages deleted. I wanted to keep them so I moved one of them as a subpage off my own page. Clearly this was a mistake, and I apologise without resevere to Netaholic for moving the page. What I should have done was copy and paste them to my own page. Which I did, and in fact I informed him of this, but he cleared this from his talk page without responding
[27]. When I wanted to look for them again I had discovered that Netaholic had moved these archive pages. The pages in question are
archive1,
archive2,
archive3 and
archive4. These were moved to Netaholic's page (see
[28], you will not be able to see the history where he did this for
User talk:Ta bu shi da yu/NetoholicArchive2 as he moved and got the redirect deleted by an admin. I've restored this, but regrettably Wikipedia is still not showing it,
[29] - Raul654 was forced to do a copy and paste restore
[30]), and then he cleared the pages and added a {{delete}} tag. He did this several times. I started restoring and locking the pages to stop him from doing this, however because he had setup a redirect I accidently locked one of his subpages. This was a genuine mistake, and only happened because of the actions Netaholic was taking with my own talk subpages. I am quite unhappy he did this because he has licensed his talk pages under the GFDL, and I am well within my rights to copy and paste his pages as subpages of my own. Also, the reason I am doing this is because he constantly clears his own talk pages when you are trying to message him about his actions - this makes talking to him about anything extremely difficult. So I made a copy of his own archives. Please note also that he has threatened to place evidence of me placing subpages on this page
[31]. I have explained this all to him already
[32], only he cleared his own talk page and never responded
[33]-
Ta bu shi da yu 09:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was told by Netaholic that I cannot place further evidence on this page, because he says that the evidence is not directly related to this
[34]. He also threatened that he will raise evidence of my own "edit wars" on the news page (something I will publicly take responsibility for, and will publicly state for the record will never happen again)
[35]. I feel he did this to make me retract the evidence for this page. He has also stated that I am a troll, to which I have responded
[36], but again he cleared this without responding
[37]. I do not appreciate threatening comments, particularly in the case of this user as he stated "Please don't leave threatening warnings on my talk page. Kindly asking goes a lot farther. --
Netoholic
@ 06:46, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)"
[38]. Please note also that I also asked him what threats I made
[39], however he cleared his page and never responded
[40]. I very much dislike being threatened and being accused of making threats when I am messaging someone. Especially when they accuse me of making the threat, then I ask them for clarification so that I can clarify what happened, then they never respond and clear my message off their talk page! -
Ta bu shi da yu 09:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I myself have had to revert many times Netoholic's deletion of points he did not like (including deletion of others posts in TFD and VfD).
Case study: 2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities
(The following is a tentative summary, there hasnt yet been time to dig up examples as much as I'd like. When I have done so I will edit this, removing anything I do not feel fair, and adding detail or sample links to those I feel are. The article status is best described as controversial, messy, sourced, but in serious need of cleanup. Netoholic went a long way beyond cleanup)
At present the above is visible in history and in comments others have left on the pages cited and left on talk pages. There are many links, but it will take time to dig them out. At present I have seen enough that I have gone in the space of one week or so from not knowing him, to agreeing his editing seriously damages articles and that he has been asked to stop numerous times but remains unchanged.
FT2 01:22, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic filed an request for arbitration style "poll" that proposed that [41]:
When I striked this out and told him to go through to Arbcom, he reverted my edit and removed my comment on the talk page [42] and then sent me a message telling me not to close his "poll" [43]. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Below is a record of every edit made by me to this article, along with references which substantiates my motiviation here.
At this point, let me interject a bit, because it is important. From the time this article was being contested on the "In the news" section until beyond this point, an extremely spirited discussion was happening on IRC about this article. Participants included article authors Neutrality and Zen-master, both of whom during this discussion expressed extremely strong views in line with the edits they had made to the article. Although in the minority in the discussion, they both indicated that they were zealously going to continue editing the article to address their own POV - even with a lack of primary sources. I will admit that the decision to redirect it was an odd one, based on my perception of the discussion, and desire to move the work back to the main article and to prevent Google-bombing (with all the blog links, etc.). I, and many editors, felt the article was in a very POV state. I also desired to prevent external sources from referencing something that would put Wikipedia in a very poor light. Passions were very high on all sides, and my passion was to keep Wikipedia from looking foolish.
I maintain that I have done nothing remotely wrong related to this page. Any heat generated was due to the actions of primarily two people - both of whom disagreed with my view on the election article, and had a vested interest in discrediting, harassing, or embarassing me. -- Netoholic @ 17:34, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
For the most part, I believe that the evidence presented against me in this Arbitration by User:Ta bu shi da yu is over differences he perceives in political viewpoints. I was recently an opponent of certain aspects of the 2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities article. I firmly believe that the "attention" I have recently gotten from TBSDY is politically-driven, and part of a coordinated attempt to poison the well in the article disputes, by making grand accusations, pestering edits, and outright attacks against me. -- Netoholic @ 07:00, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
Unprofessional revert warring, and an odd action.
Harassment of Netoholic, including repeated, spiteful edits.
On 12 November, I marked four of my user subpages for speedy deletion. These pages were archives I had not particularly maintained in some time, and were incomplete. Like many other users, I decided to simplify things by discontinuing this, instead choosing to maintain everything just within my Talk page history. Immediately after marking them for deletion, I saw in my watchlist that Ta bu shi da yu, rather than abide by my desires, had moved these pages into his own user space, and then deleted only the redirects. He then edited them to remove the {(delete}} template.
Seeing this, I moved the pages back into my user space, and re-marked them for deletion, which, for some reason, lead to Ta bu re-moving them, and even protecting the redirects under my user space. Only after other admins (Raul654) got involved, was the mess of page moves and redirects mostly fixed.
Evidence for this is largely hidden from my view, since I'm not an admin. Please check entries from 12 Nov in the Wikipedia:Deletion log, Wikipedia:Protection log, and the deleted histories of the following pages:
From the visible history of TBSDY's "NetoholicArchive#" files, you can see that at 04:47-04:49 there is a record of my moving each one to my user space. It is only after that time that TBSDY used those redirects to create copy and paste archives. Until that time, all of the pages were my original ones, which he had moved.
Frankly, I find this extremely insulting. It is clear that it is a user's right to maintain their own subpages. Ta bu could have created his own via copy and paste from the start, but moving mine and deleting the redirects when I specifically requested deletion is not appropriate. I firmly believe that he thought that I would not see this action. He also has not explained what relevance these older archives hold for him. It is honestly very strange that he would do this, and I offer it as evidence of both abuse of admin rights and of his recent "obsession" with me. -- Netoholic @ 07:37, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
Shows you how important perspective is, doesn't it? I initially moved one of his user subpages he wanted to delete. That is true. Then I discovered how unhappy he was about this, so I copied and pasted the articles into my own userpage. When I had done this, Netoholic (possibly not realising what I had done) decided to move it to his own userpage that had already been deleted and put the pages for speedy deletion. An admin deleted it. So I eventually restored, did another copy and paste, locked my page to stop him from moving my subpage (precisely the thing he's complaining about here) and then deleted his old subpage. So hopefully that clarifies what happened here. If you don't beleive me, ask Raul654. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P.S. I can't see how this has anything to do with this arbitration. I mean, I didn't actually do anything wrong with my copy & paste into my own subpage. Netaholic's text is under the GFDL, after all. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:50, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P.P.S. Oh, and the protection of the redirect on Netoholic's userpage happened because he did a move of my subpage, I didn't notice this, it redirected and I locked the page. I can hardly be blamed for this mistake, as it was Netoholic who moved my subpage from under me! It was unlocked by another admin, however had I realised what had happened I can rest assure everyone that this would have been speedily unlocked. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:06, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What Netoholic says is true. I've already stated that I was sorry about this in several places, however I'll state it here for the record: this was a mistake, I am sorry for doing this, and it won't happen again. I don't see what that has to do with this arbitration. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:46, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic is correct that I'm a bit too fast on the old rollbacks. I'm restricting myself to using if for vandalism efforts. The two rollbacks that were done, however, were done pretty quickly when I realised that Netoholic had not removed the text I thought he'd removed from the page. I rolled back again to put it back as quickly as possible! I don't see how its a valid complaint if I realised I made a mistake and then put back his text.
The second rollback was for deliberately placing back my decisions in WP:TFD. I had decided to keep based on consensus. There was no clear consensus to delete! My decision was to keep, and for him to put the text back [55] shows a serious mistake in judgement. I maintain that he knew I was going to rollback and so added a further comment just so he could file this. Netoholic then reverted my rollback to readd his comment but also readded the removed template [56]! This forced Rhobite to remove the template from WP:TFD [57] with the text "Consensus to delete Monty Python is not reached, regardless of inconclusive vote".
Again, however, I fail to see what this has to do with the arbitration. He should be taking this up on another arbcom page! - Ta bu shi da yu 06:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(1) A section above discusses Ta bu's addition of a comment in the middle of Netoholic's opening statement on VfD, which Netoholic includes under the heading "harrassment" and " repeated spiteful edits". This is what I saw happen. The background was this:
(2) My main issue with Netoholic is that regardless of motives, the effect is that he lacks a sense of feeling what the rough consensus of contributors is on an article, when to edit and when to ask, so he makes significant unilateral edits which others find a problem. In respect of articles, he appears to:
Put these together and in effect, he sometimes acts as if he neither understands how to handle controversial matters in a balanced manner, or takes a unilateral autocratic view to them. FT2 00:24, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please choose an appropriate header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.
It is extremely important in order that your submitted evidence be considered by the Arbitrators that when you cite evidence to provide a link to the exact edit which displays the transaction, links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=0&oldid=5584644] [1].
This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.
If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Please do this under a seperate header, to seperate your response from the original evidence.
Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please voice your objections on the talk page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others.
I don't mind Netoholic listing the page on VfD (I actually suggested he do this on his talk page [2] - don't bother looking on his main talk page however, because he "archives" all negative comments to the page history, which though valid sort of makes me wonder what he's hiding!) but I do dislike him shifting around my comments from the VfD page. It's never been correct to shift comments to the talk page, and I question why he did this. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic removed a user's signed comments in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion
Originally Netaholic wanted his archive pages deleted. I wanted to keep them so I moved one of them as a subpage off my own page. Clearly this was a mistake, and I apologise without resevere to Netaholic for moving the page. What I should have done was copy and paste them to my own page. Which I did, and in fact I informed him of this, but he cleared this from his talk page without responding
[27]. When I wanted to look for them again I had discovered that Netaholic had moved these archive pages. The pages in question are
archive1,
archive2,
archive3 and
archive4. These were moved to Netaholic's page (see
[28], you will not be able to see the history where he did this for
User talk:Ta bu shi da yu/NetoholicArchive2 as he moved and got the redirect deleted by an admin. I've restored this, but regrettably Wikipedia is still not showing it,
[29] - Raul654 was forced to do a copy and paste restore
[30]), and then he cleared the pages and added a {{delete}} tag. He did this several times. I started restoring and locking the pages to stop him from doing this, however because he had setup a redirect I accidently locked one of his subpages. This was a genuine mistake, and only happened because of the actions Netaholic was taking with my own talk subpages. I am quite unhappy he did this because he has licensed his talk pages under the GFDL, and I am well within my rights to copy and paste his pages as subpages of my own. Also, the reason I am doing this is because he constantly clears his own talk pages when you are trying to message him about his actions - this makes talking to him about anything extremely difficult. So I made a copy of his own archives. Please note also that he has threatened to place evidence of me placing subpages on this page
[31]. I have explained this all to him already
[32], only he cleared his own talk page and never responded
[33]-
Ta bu shi da yu 09:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was told by Netaholic that I cannot place further evidence on this page, because he says that the evidence is not directly related to this
[34]. He also threatened that he will raise evidence of my own "edit wars" on the news page (something I will publicly take responsibility for, and will publicly state for the record will never happen again)
[35]. I feel he did this to make me retract the evidence for this page. He has also stated that I am a troll, to which I have responded
[36], but again he cleared this without responding
[37]. I do not appreciate threatening comments, particularly in the case of this user as he stated "Please don't leave threatening warnings on my talk page. Kindly asking goes a lot farther. --
Netoholic
@ 06:46, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)"
[38]. Please note also that I also asked him what threats I made
[39], however he cleared his page and never responded
[40]. I very much dislike being threatened and being accused of making threats when I am messaging someone. Especially when they accuse me of making the threat, then I ask them for clarification so that I can clarify what happened, then they never respond and clear my message off their talk page! -
Ta bu shi da yu 09:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I myself have had to revert many times Netoholic's deletion of points he did not like (including deletion of others posts in TFD and VfD).
Case study: 2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities
(The following is a tentative summary, there hasnt yet been time to dig up examples as much as I'd like. When I have done so I will edit this, removing anything I do not feel fair, and adding detail or sample links to those I feel are. The article status is best described as controversial, messy, sourced, but in serious need of cleanup. Netoholic went a long way beyond cleanup)
At present the above is visible in history and in comments others have left on the pages cited and left on talk pages. There are many links, but it will take time to dig them out. At present I have seen enough that I have gone in the space of one week or so from not knowing him, to agreeing his editing seriously damages articles and that he has been asked to stop numerous times but remains unchanged.
FT2 01:22, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic filed an request for arbitration style "poll" that proposed that [41]:
When I striked this out and told him to go through to Arbcom, he reverted my edit and removed my comment on the talk page [42] and then sent me a message telling me not to close his "poll" [43]. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Below is a record of every edit made by me to this article, along with references which substantiates my motiviation here.
At this point, let me interject a bit, because it is important. From the time this article was being contested on the "In the news" section until beyond this point, an extremely spirited discussion was happening on IRC about this article. Participants included article authors Neutrality and Zen-master, both of whom during this discussion expressed extremely strong views in line with the edits they had made to the article. Although in the minority in the discussion, they both indicated that they were zealously going to continue editing the article to address their own POV - even with a lack of primary sources. I will admit that the decision to redirect it was an odd one, based on my perception of the discussion, and desire to move the work back to the main article and to prevent Google-bombing (with all the blog links, etc.). I, and many editors, felt the article was in a very POV state. I also desired to prevent external sources from referencing something that would put Wikipedia in a very poor light. Passions were very high on all sides, and my passion was to keep Wikipedia from looking foolish.
I maintain that I have done nothing remotely wrong related to this page. Any heat generated was due to the actions of primarily two people - both of whom disagreed with my view on the election article, and had a vested interest in discrediting, harassing, or embarassing me. -- Netoholic @ 17:34, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
For the most part, I believe that the evidence presented against me in this Arbitration by User:Ta bu shi da yu is over differences he perceives in political viewpoints. I was recently an opponent of certain aspects of the 2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities article. I firmly believe that the "attention" I have recently gotten from TBSDY is politically-driven, and part of a coordinated attempt to poison the well in the article disputes, by making grand accusations, pestering edits, and outright attacks against me. -- Netoholic @ 07:00, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
Unprofessional revert warring, and an odd action.
Harassment of Netoholic, including repeated, spiteful edits.
On 12 November, I marked four of my user subpages for speedy deletion. These pages were archives I had not particularly maintained in some time, and were incomplete. Like many other users, I decided to simplify things by discontinuing this, instead choosing to maintain everything just within my Talk page history. Immediately after marking them for deletion, I saw in my watchlist that Ta bu shi da yu, rather than abide by my desires, had moved these pages into his own user space, and then deleted only the redirects. He then edited them to remove the {(delete}} template.
Seeing this, I moved the pages back into my user space, and re-marked them for deletion, which, for some reason, lead to Ta bu re-moving them, and even protecting the redirects under my user space. Only after other admins (Raul654) got involved, was the mess of page moves and redirects mostly fixed.
Evidence for this is largely hidden from my view, since I'm not an admin. Please check entries from 12 Nov in the Wikipedia:Deletion log, Wikipedia:Protection log, and the deleted histories of the following pages:
From the visible history of TBSDY's "NetoholicArchive#" files, you can see that at 04:47-04:49 there is a record of my moving each one to my user space. It is only after that time that TBSDY used those redirects to create copy and paste archives. Until that time, all of the pages were my original ones, which he had moved.
Frankly, I find this extremely insulting. It is clear that it is a user's right to maintain their own subpages. Ta bu could have created his own via copy and paste from the start, but moving mine and deleting the redirects when I specifically requested deletion is not appropriate. I firmly believe that he thought that I would not see this action. He also has not explained what relevance these older archives hold for him. It is honestly very strange that he would do this, and I offer it as evidence of both abuse of admin rights and of his recent "obsession" with me. -- Netoholic @ 07:37, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
Shows you how important perspective is, doesn't it? I initially moved one of his user subpages he wanted to delete. That is true. Then I discovered how unhappy he was about this, so I copied and pasted the articles into my own userpage. When I had done this, Netoholic (possibly not realising what I had done) decided to move it to his own userpage that had already been deleted and put the pages for speedy deletion. An admin deleted it. So I eventually restored, did another copy and paste, locked my page to stop him from moving my subpage (precisely the thing he's complaining about here) and then deleted his old subpage. So hopefully that clarifies what happened here. If you don't beleive me, ask Raul654. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P.S. I can't see how this has anything to do with this arbitration. I mean, I didn't actually do anything wrong with my copy & paste into my own subpage. Netaholic's text is under the GFDL, after all. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:50, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P.P.S. Oh, and the protection of the redirect on Netoholic's userpage happened because he did a move of my subpage, I didn't notice this, it redirected and I locked the page. I can hardly be blamed for this mistake, as it was Netoholic who moved my subpage from under me! It was unlocked by another admin, however had I realised what had happened I can rest assure everyone that this would have been speedily unlocked. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:06, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What Netoholic says is true. I've already stated that I was sorry about this in several places, however I'll state it here for the record: this was a mistake, I am sorry for doing this, and it won't happen again. I don't see what that has to do with this arbitration. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:46, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic is correct that I'm a bit too fast on the old rollbacks. I'm restricting myself to using if for vandalism efforts. The two rollbacks that were done, however, were done pretty quickly when I realised that Netoholic had not removed the text I thought he'd removed from the page. I rolled back again to put it back as quickly as possible! I don't see how its a valid complaint if I realised I made a mistake and then put back his text.
The second rollback was for deliberately placing back my decisions in WP:TFD. I had decided to keep based on consensus. There was no clear consensus to delete! My decision was to keep, and for him to put the text back [55] shows a serious mistake in judgement. I maintain that he knew I was going to rollback and so added a further comment just so he could file this. Netoholic then reverted my rollback to readd his comment but also readded the removed template [56]! This forced Rhobite to remove the template from WP:TFD [57] with the text "Consensus to delete Monty Python is not reached, regardless of inconclusive vote".
Again, however, I fail to see what this has to do with the arbitration. He should be taking this up on another arbcom page! - Ta bu shi da yu 06:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(1) A section above discusses Ta bu's addition of a comment in the middle of Netoholic's opening statement on VfD, which Netoholic includes under the heading "harrassment" and " repeated spiteful edits". This is what I saw happen. The background was this:
(2) My main issue with Netoholic is that regardless of motives, the effect is that he lacks a sense of feeling what the rough consensus of contributors is on an article, when to edit and when to ask, so he makes significant unilateral edits which others find a problem. In respect of articles, he appears to:
Put these together and in effect, he sometimes acts as if he neither understands how to handle controversial matters in a balanced manner, or takes a unilateral autocratic view to them. FT2 00:24, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)