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August 5 Information
Somebody has decided that a
Slow worm is "a squamata" and not "a reptile".
So, one thing you need to understand is there no less unified, more acrimonious and disunited group in the world than taxonomists. If there exists, in the world, n number of taxonomists, there are guaranteed to be a minimum of n+1 taxonomic schemes distinct from all of the others. At any given second of any given day, there will be some new classification or designation that is created, for which there will be some number (possibly a majority, usually a minority, often singular) of taxonomists who insists that their new classification is better/more accurate/more precise/correct, and that ALL other possible ways to categorize something are not just different but WRONG, with giant, capital letters, and the evil souls of anyone who spreads such lies are bound to the deepest pits of hell. The real answer is that
Squamata are reptiles; they are the order of reptiles that include lizards and snakes. I'm sure you have at least one taxonomists who insists this is wrong, and perhaps more than one. You can probably even find a paper someone wrote insisting on it. Squamata consist of three subgroups (I don't know if these are suborders, infraorders, or "unclassified clades", or non-cladistic common groupings, but there are three of them) that are the true lizards, the true snakes, and
Amphisbaenians, which are neither snakes nor lizards, like the slowworm cited above. --
Jayron3215:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Based on what other Wikipedia articles say (which for all I know could be part of a controversial systematic opinion, but for purposes of discussion I'm assuming it's correct), it would appear that it is correct to say that: they are reptiles; they are squamates; they are lizards; they are legless lizards.
However "reptiles" is the least specific of the four options. "Squamates" is more specific, but not necessarily more informative, because many readers have no idea what a squamate is. "Lizards" is better, but
surprises the reader in a way that calls for explanation.
I think "
legless lizard", with the link, is the best of the four options. It makes a correct statement, is fairly specific, and gives the reader fair notice that, while the creature is a "lizard" in some scientific sense, it's not the everyday sort of
fence lizard they're likely used to. Armed with that notice, they can click on the link and learn about the rest of the taxonomy. --
Trovatore (
talk)
16:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
In a sense, this is exactly one place where an old-fashioned encyclopedia had a "
leg up" (sorry) over Wikipedia. The editorial staff at, say, Britannica, could issue a fiat and declare that they used only the XYZ taxonomy system adopted by the ABC Society of Established Taxonomists, or whatever. Then they could enforce a consistency in all their articles. Then, whether the
"editors" were internal staff or externally-commissioned experts, the final edition could be held to a specific and consistent standard taxonomy. Or look at my favorite childhood encyclopedia. The
2023 edition promotional material has a discussion about dinosaurs, and they boldly announce in the lede that "dinosaur is the name of a group of reptiles." I tell you - as a scientist, as a reader of a lot of encyclopedias - World Book staff did not make that sentence because they misunderstand modern scientific nuances of the taxonomy of "dinosaur" or "reptile." They wrote that sentence because it is a good introduction, editorially curated for the intended audience, and the reader who cares to know more is able to easily locate detailed discussion about these concerns in
the other 14,000 pages. So - what's Wikipedia doing, and why is Wikipedia different?
Here at Wikipedia, we don't really have an editorial board who may issue fiat decisions as such. So when an issue of scientific fact has a
plurality of valid opinions, we're essentially begging for inconsistency by virtue of our style of open contribution. This is a bit of a meta-analysis of what makes our encyclopedia different. It has strengths and weaknesses. True experts on "slow worms" can read an article and suss out the systematics, and they already know the nuances of disagreements about the taxonomy concerns, and if it's relevant, they can see the cited sources and review the details from the privileged position of already having an established, expert-level background. But an amateur reader can read the same article - replete with cited sources - and walk away with a different view about which facts are known, and which items remain disputed.
It's a conundrum. Wikipedia isn't hiding the knowledge - we have zillions of articles about taxonomy and about the different systems of taxonomy and about the relative merits of each, and the disputes about them, and so on... but most readers of the
slow worm article don't click every link, nor perform a breadth-first-search of the whole of biological taxonomy.
I think as an editor I'd say that this issue isn't relevant for the lede of the article on the slow worm. (Maybe I can concede that it is appropriate at
dinosaur, and as of this writing, "I approve" of how we handled that article). But overall - the issue of taxonomy has better coverage elsewhere. The typical audience of that article doesn't need to be distracted by these concerns in the introduction of the topic. It's all about context - where do we need to discuss taxonomy? Surely not in the introduction paragraph of every single article that uses binomial nomenclature, or even mentions an organism,...
It's a question of how much of a
lie-to-children is necessary. It's the classic "there is no such thing as a fish" problem. Or, like, why
monkey shouldn't exist as a concept. So we have to decide between using common words as people will understand them, or use specialist definitions that are more correct, but less likely to be understood correctly by our readers. If you want to get really specific, taxonomy should be reliably
paraphyletic, which is to say that a taxon should contain all and only those members who share a last common ancestor. Common names don't always follow this system. --
Jayron3216:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
It gets especially confusing as
wyrm (the serpent-like mythical creature) and
worm (the floppy invertebrate) are etymologically the same origin; so the ancient English speakers didn't really draw distinctions between serpents-and-or-worms. --
Jayron3218:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Science Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a
transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
August 5 Information
Somebody has decided that a
Slow worm is "a squamata" and not "a reptile".
So, one thing you need to understand is there no less unified, more acrimonious and disunited group in the world than taxonomists. If there exists, in the world, n number of taxonomists, there are guaranteed to be a minimum of n+1 taxonomic schemes distinct from all of the others. At any given second of any given day, there will be some new classification or designation that is created, for which there will be some number (possibly a majority, usually a minority, often singular) of taxonomists who insists that their new classification is better/more accurate/more precise/correct, and that ALL other possible ways to categorize something are not just different but WRONG, with giant, capital letters, and the evil souls of anyone who spreads such lies are bound to the deepest pits of hell. The real answer is that
Squamata are reptiles; they are the order of reptiles that include lizards and snakes. I'm sure you have at least one taxonomists who insists this is wrong, and perhaps more than one. You can probably even find a paper someone wrote insisting on it. Squamata consist of three subgroups (I don't know if these are suborders, infraorders, or "unclassified clades", or non-cladistic common groupings, but there are three of them) that are the true lizards, the true snakes, and
Amphisbaenians, which are neither snakes nor lizards, like the slowworm cited above. --
Jayron3215:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Based on what other Wikipedia articles say (which for all I know could be part of a controversial systematic opinion, but for purposes of discussion I'm assuming it's correct), it would appear that it is correct to say that: they are reptiles; they are squamates; they are lizards; they are legless lizards.
However "reptiles" is the least specific of the four options. "Squamates" is more specific, but not necessarily more informative, because many readers have no idea what a squamate is. "Lizards" is better, but
surprises the reader in a way that calls for explanation.
I think "
legless lizard", with the link, is the best of the four options. It makes a correct statement, is fairly specific, and gives the reader fair notice that, while the creature is a "lizard" in some scientific sense, it's not the everyday sort of
fence lizard they're likely used to. Armed with that notice, they can click on the link and learn about the rest of the taxonomy. --
Trovatore (
talk)
16:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
In a sense, this is exactly one place where an old-fashioned encyclopedia had a "
leg up" (sorry) over Wikipedia. The editorial staff at, say, Britannica, could issue a fiat and declare that they used only the XYZ taxonomy system adopted by the ABC Society of Established Taxonomists, or whatever. Then they could enforce a consistency in all their articles. Then, whether the
"editors" were internal staff or externally-commissioned experts, the final edition could be held to a specific and consistent standard taxonomy. Or look at my favorite childhood encyclopedia. The
2023 edition promotional material has a discussion about dinosaurs, and they boldly announce in the lede that "dinosaur is the name of a group of reptiles." I tell you - as a scientist, as a reader of a lot of encyclopedias - World Book staff did not make that sentence because they misunderstand modern scientific nuances of the taxonomy of "dinosaur" or "reptile." They wrote that sentence because it is a good introduction, editorially curated for the intended audience, and the reader who cares to know more is able to easily locate detailed discussion about these concerns in
the other 14,000 pages. So - what's Wikipedia doing, and why is Wikipedia different?
Here at Wikipedia, we don't really have an editorial board who may issue fiat decisions as such. So when an issue of scientific fact has a
plurality of valid opinions, we're essentially begging for inconsistency by virtue of our style of open contribution. This is a bit of a meta-analysis of what makes our encyclopedia different. It has strengths and weaknesses. True experts on "slow worms" can read an article and suss out the systematics, and they already know the nuances of disagreements about the taxonomy concerns, and if it's relevant, they can see the cited sources and review the details from the privileged position of already having an established, expert-level background. But an amateur reader can read the same article - replete with cited sources - and walk away with a different view about which facts are known, and which items remain disputed.
It's a conundrum. Wikipedia isn't hiding the knowledge - we have zillions of articles about taxonomy and about the different systems of taxonomy and about the relative merits of each, and the disputes about them, and so on... but most readers of the
slow worm article don't click every link, nor perform a breadth-first-search of the whole of biological taxonomy.
I think as an editor I'd say that this issue isn't relevant for the lede of the article on the slow worm. (Maybe I can concede that it is appropriate at
dinosaur, and as of this writing, "I approve" of how we handled that article). But overall - the issue of taxonomy has better coverage elsewhere. The typical audience of that article doesn't need to be distracted by these concerns in the introduction of the topic. It's all about context - where do we need to discuss taxonomy? Surely not in the introduction paragraph of every single article that uses binomial nomenclature, or even mentions an organism,...
It's a question of how much of a
lie-to-children is necessary. It's the classic "there is no such thing as a fish" problem. Or, like, why
monkey shouldn't exist as a concept. So we have to decide between using common words as people will understand them, or use specialist definitions that are more correct, but less likely to be understood correctly by our readers. If you want to get really specific, taxonomy should be reliably
paraphyletic, which is to say that a taxon should contain all and only those members who share a last common ancestor. Common names don't always follow this system. --
Jayron3216:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply
It gets especially confusing as
wyrm (the serpent-like mythical creature) and
worm (the floppy invertebrate) are etymologically the same origin; so the ancient English speakers didn't really draw distinctions between serpents-and-or-worms. --
Jayron3218:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)reply