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February 22 Information
The question: Are there any organizations that score farms (large and/or small) on ethical grounds (e.g. sustainability, animal welfare, and so on)? Google is failing me.
Background: It occurred to me while at the farmers' market the other day that the ethos and pathos of " buying local" has somehow expanded beyond the most logical appeals to freshness and the local economy. Though more connotation than denotation, it somehow assuages a range of ethical consumerist concerns that ten years ago had been desperately left at the feet of "organic farming" -- or behind the idea that the mythical farmer figure, displaced by industrialization and factory farming, was alive and well somewhere. Local probably means the scale is smaller, but what reason do we have to assume the apple isn't covered in pesticides, eggplants weren't harvested through slave labor, and chickens weren't raised in cruel conditions? At least "organic," though manipulated by marketing, has implications for method of growth rather than rely on proximity-based assumptions. None of this is to say I think it's bunk -- after all, there's no reason to say there's anything worse about it either -- but it makes me wonder if there is a way check on the other stuff. --— Rhododendrites talk | 20:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Certainly locally grown produce doesn't solve all the problems, but does solve some. For example, they don't need to pick unripe produce so it can survive a long shipment, then force it to "ripen" at the store. Also, assuming your local laws prevent slave labor and the type of contaminants you get in foods from China, then those problems are less likely. One advantage relative to "organic" is that it's far easier to verify the source of produce than pin down all the details of how it was grown and decide which might disqualify it from being considered "organic".
- On the downside, your selection of produce will be greatly reduced, as only a few grow in any given area, and each item is likely to be available fresh for only a short portion of the year. StuRat ( talk) 21:22, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed these are all good points. I suppose slave labor was kind of an exaggeration. My more immediate concern may have been obscured by my rambling explanation, though. It's less that I think local food is just a fad or is the same as anything else, but that it creates warm and fuzzies that make us (or me) less apt to be cynical of farming processes which are just as opaque as they are at farms on the other side of the country. Hence looking for these organizations that might engage in a kind of scoring/rating procedure. I mean, there's got to be some activist group doing this it seems...right? --— Rhododendrites talk | 21:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- My suggestion is to go to a farmer's market. There you actually buy from the farmers. Some are permanent and some only open up at certain times or days, maybe in the corner of a parking lot. And a bonus is that prices may be a bit lower, since there is no middleman. One thing to beware of, though, is that if you buy items with no pesticides/preservatives you really need to cook/eat the food you buy immediately. (I bought some green beans and they were all fuzzy the next day.) StuRat ( talk) 00:13, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There seems to be some rather odd premise here that if farmers could get away with poisoning their customers and running their farms into the ground they would. Of course things like pesticides involve tradeoffs, but the question is one of relative risks, not absolute ones. Farming is a very capital intensive business, and no farmer wants to deplete his soil, kill his orchard, buy new milch cows every year, and have his assets seized in liability lawsuits.
- Of course livestock meant for consumption will be slaughtered, but even there, farmers voluntarily adopt humane standards when offered them, look at the huge success of Temple Grandin as a slaughterhouse designer. I may be prejudiced in this question, because there are four farmer's markets I still frequent in the town I grew up in, and I hunt and fish and eat beef and pork and chicken and lamb. But I don't torture the animals I eat, and I suspect it's the very rare farmers who do, and not the successful ones. μηδείς ( talk) 02:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Animal farming on an industrial scale can often result in inhumane conditions. For example, a warehouse crammed with as many chickens as will fit or a feedlot crammed with as many cattle as will fit. To maximize profits you want them to be just short of the stress level where they start killing each other. (On the other hand, if you cram in twice as many, and only 10% are killed, that might still increase profits.) StuRat ( talk) 02:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Again, read Temple Grandin and feel free to hunt, Stu, if you prefer free range. Rhododenrites seems happy to pay for happy animals, which strikes me as quite commendable if the animals are actually happier. The notion that farmers don't move toward better conditions for their livestock is simply false. You might also watch this for organic free-range organic chickens, and this for what happens to organic free-range organic chickens. μηδείς ( talk) 03:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Organic certification pertains to some aspects of farming. See Category:Product certification.
- —
Wavelength (
talk) 02:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Slow food is an international movement that uses the criteria "good, clean and fair". "Clean" includes no damage to human health, animal welfare or the environment. "Fair" is also an ethical criterion. One of the advantages of buying local is that you find out who the farmer is and can ask to visit the farm. I recommend doing that. If they are reticent about letting you visit, you can draw your own conclusions. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
- So it sounds like maybe the scoring system I was hoping for doesn't exist. Certifications are useful, but not really what I'm looking for since it implies opting in (or even paying, which certainly precludes smaller farms). :/ --— Rhododendrites talk | 15:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
| Miscellaneous desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < February 21 | << Jan | February | Mar >> | February 23 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
February 22 Information
The question: Are there any organizations that score farms (large and/or small) on ethical grounds (e.g. sustainability, animal welfare, and so on)? Google is failing me.
Background: It occurred to me while at the farmers' market the other day that the ethos and pathos of " buying local" has somehow expanded beyond the most logical appeals to freshness and the local economy. Though more connotation than denotation, it somehow assuages a range of ethical consumerist concerns that ten years ago had been desperately left at the feet of "organic farming" -- or behind the idea that the mythical farmer figure, displaced by industrialization and factory farming, was alive and well somewhere. Local probably means the scale is smaller, but what reason do we have to assume the apple isn't covered in pesticides, eggplants weren't harvested through slave labor, and chickens weren't raised in cruel conditions? At least "organic," though manipulated by marketing, has implications for method of growth rather than rely on proximity-based assumptions. None of this is to say I think it's bunk -- after all, there's no reason to say there's anything worse about it either -- but it makes me wonder if there is a way check on the other stuff. --— Rhododendrites talk | 20:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Certainly locally grown produce doesn't solve all the problems, but does solve some. For example, they don't need to pick unripe produce so it can survive a long shipment, then force it to "ripen" at the store. Also, assuming your local laws prevent slave labor and the type of contaminants you get in foods from China, then those problems are less likely. One advantage relative to "organic" is that it's far easier to verify the source of produce than pin down all the details of how it was grown and decide which might disqualify it from being considered "organic".
- On the downside, your selection of produce will be greatly reduced, as only a few grow in any given area, and each item is likely to be available fresh for only a short portion of the year. StuRat ( talk) 21:22, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed these are all good points. I suppose slave labor was kind of an exaggeration. My more immediate concern may have been obscured by my rambling explanation, though. It's less that I think local food is just a fad or is the same as anything else, but that it creates warm and fuzzies that make us (or me) less apt to be cynical of farming processes which are just as opaque as they are at farms on the other side of the country. Hence looking for these organizations that might engage in a kind of scoring/rating procedure. I mean, there's got to be some activist group doing this it seems...right? --— Rhododendrites talk | 21:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- My suggestion is to go to a farmer's market. There you actually buy from the farmers. Some are permanent and some only open up at certain times or days, maybe in the corner of a parking lot. And a bonus is that prices may be a bit lower, since there is no middleman. One thing to beware of, though, is that if you buy items with no pesticides/preservatives you really need to cook/eat the food you buy immediately. (I bought some green beans and they were all fuzzy the next day.) StuRat ( talk) 00:13, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There seems to be some rather odd premise here that if farmers could get away with poisoning their customers and running their farms into the ground they would. Of course things like pesticides involve tradeoffs, but the question is one of relative risks, not absolute ones. Farming is a very capital intensive business, and no farmer wants to deplete his soil, kill his orchard, buy new milch cows every year, and have his assets seized in liability lawsuits.
- Of course livestock meant for consumption will be slaughtered, but even there, farmers voluntarily adopt humane standards when offered them, look at the huge success of Temple Grandin as a slaughterhouse designer. I may be prejudiced in this question, because there are four farmer's markets I still frequent in the town I grew up in, and I hunt and fish and eat beef and pork and chicken and lamb. But I don't torture the animals I eat, and I suspect it's the very rare farmers who do, and not the successful ones. μηδείς ( talk) 02:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Animal farming on an industrial scale can often result in inhumane conditions. For example, a warehouse crammed with as many chickens as will fit or a feedlot crammed with as many cattle as will fit. To maximize profits you want them to be just short of the stress level where they start killing each other. (On the other hand, if you cram in twice as many, and only 10% are killed, that might still increase profits.) StuRat ( talk) 02:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Again, read Temple Grandin and feel free to hunt, Stu, if you prefer free range. Rhododenrites seems happy to pay for happy animals, which strikes me as quite commendable if the animals are actually happier. The notion that farmers don't move toward better conditions for their livestock is simply false. You might also watch this for organic free-range organic chickens, and this for what happens to organic free-range organic chickens. μηδείς ( talk) 03:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Organic certification pertains to some aspects of farming. See Category:Product certification.
- —
Wavelength (
talk) 02:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Slow food is an international movement that uses the criteria "good, clean and fair". "Clean" includes no damage to human health, animal welfare or the environment. "Fair" is also an ethical criterion. One of the advantages of buying local is that you find out who the farmer is and can ask to visit the farm. I recommend doing that. If they are reticent about letting you visit, you can draw your own conclusions. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
- So it sounds like maybe the scoring system I was hoping for doesn't exist. Certifications are useful, but not really what I'm looking for since it implies opting in (or even paying, which certainly precludes smaller farms). :/ --— Rhododendrites talk | 15:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)