September 12 Information

Hi folks, there is an editor currently tagging the term "incidence" as grammatically incorrect and beginning to modify it to "incidents" without regard for context or actual usage (e.g. in epidemiology the word "incidence" has a particular technical meaning that is not entirely interchangeable with "incident", as well as areas such as textual analysis, e.g. 1 Timothy 2:12). Could we establish some guardrails for usage of these various terms, and whether "incidences" is the properly-implemented plural usage of "incidence"? Elizium23 ( talk) 06:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Incidence is a completely different word, and doesn't even have remotely the same meaning as incident. I'm sorry, but whoever keeps changing that needs to learn English. And yes, incidences is the correct plural (even though it looks wrong to me) Fgf10 ( talk) 07:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I'm struggling to think of a context in which "incidence" would have a plural. Can you think of one? What's more, I think there is the potential for confusion here between incidence and instance. -- Viennese Waltz 07:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I've had one of my "incidences" marked by the editor in question, and after a moment's thought found that indeed should have been "incidents". I think when "incidences" is correct, it usually is shorthand for "incidence rates" and could be changed to the latter for clarity. (But I'm not a native speaker and am willing to be taught the errors of my ways). — Kusma ( talk) 07:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

@ Viennese Waltz: [1] shows an example: The San Diego Board of Supervisors did this in June, creating a "Mobile Crisis Response Team" of trained mental health providers to respond to nonviolent incidences involving people with mental health issues. (11 November 2020, Voice of San Diego). Bazza ( talk) 09:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

That sounds wrong to me. Should indeed be "incidents". -- Viennese Waltz 09:06, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

That would be because you are more familiar with the usage in statistics than with the (more occasional) usage in geometry or physics. On a similar line, I'm a bit sceptical regarding the usage warning at wikt:incidences. -- Askedonty ( talk) 12:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Yes indeed, and the above example is from statistics so "incidences" is incorrect. Can you give me an example from geometry or physics where "incidences" would be correct? -- Viennese Waltz 12:52, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Never mind, I found one [2]. -- Viennese Waltz 12:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Mm. That last you're right and I wouldn't have even dreamed of one. But the San Diego Board example is borderline as for a matter of statistics, I see just a usefull replacement for "occurrences". My feel about it is that in the singular they would probably be using "an occurrence" for a contrast with the plural. -- Askedonty ( talk) 14:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

In my view the San Diego Board example is clearly an error for "incidents". -- Viennese Waltz 14:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

You mean: "nonviolent incidents" ? I'm not able to believe in it. In one way or an other, they had to make a stylistic choice, I do not think it's a one-off, neither that it's a recent choice at that. -- Askedonty ( talk) 14:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Is this maybe an WP:ENGVAR thing? Our national generally-reliable source has [3], [4], [5]. (I agree that dictionary.com's San Diego example doesn't look right; but it's not my example.) Bazza ( talk) 15:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

"Incidences of the disease" is absolutely idiomatic English and has outnumbered "incidents of the disease" for most of the past century. Andreas JN 466 16:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Yes. If you can have "coincidences", then you have "incidences". One problem is that "incidence" and "incidents" tend to be pronounced the same. ← Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

In this sense I think the use of the plural "incidences" is less than absolutely idiomatic. The uncountable use "incidence of the disease" is far more common.  -- Lambiam 22:36, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Yes, but you can have incidences of diseases. Say for example "incidences of neuropsychiatric conditions have been rising over the last decade." Fgf10 ( talk) 22:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I'm wondering. It's not adding anything to the question concerning incidences in the plural but there is nonetheless something happening culminating in 1980: [6]. -- Askedonty ( talk) 10:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Both singular and plural exist, of course, and each has its use. Have a look at examples of plural use in academic literature: [7]. Often the plural "incidences" is used to imply that the rates of occurrence vary for different age groups, countries, disease types, types of event etc. Andreas JN 466 11:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Merriam-Webster sets out the American use [8]. There is an acknowledged overlap [9], [10]. The Covid pandemic has increased confusion [11]. This [12] discusses the plural of "incidence". [13] discusses the scientific use. 31.124.153.252 ( talk) 12:41, 13 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Good post. Andreas JN 466 13:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Other than the IP being a banned user. ← Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:38, 16 September 2022 (UTC) reply

With regard to the Merriam-Webster definition referencing OCCURRENCE, I suggest that this specifically applies to the case where "incidence" implies that the rate or frequency was non-zero. So for instance: "There was incidence of discomfort among patients to whom the drug was administered." That is, at least one person experienced discomfort. Fabrickator ( talk) 02:31, 14 September 2022 (UTC) reply