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All three English renditions of the name, in your query and in the article, are identical. Is there something in the Japanese characters (which I cannot read) that raises a conflict? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195}
2.122.1.40 (
talk)
22:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
My understanding is that articles about Japanese use Western name order (forename surname) but then include the Japanese form in brackets, normally in the reverse order (see for example
Masaki Nashimoto) but this article has the same name order for both, so something is amiss, hence my query...
GrahamHardy (
talk)
00:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
But we also go by
WP:NAMESORT which states that Western name order should be used for Japanese names. Is anybody able to tell me whether the transliteration of 桑田 尚樹 is 'Naoki Kuwata' or 'Kuwata Naoki', that is all I ask...
GrahamHardy (
talk)
07:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
The "NAMESORT" policy is about ordering within categories, not really about choosing article titles (in fact, the bit about Toyohibiki Ryuta is telling you that the surname is first in that title).
The transliteration of the kanji is clearly "Naoki Kuwata" -- a reordering of the names to Kuwata Naoki would not fall under what is normally described as "transliteration"...
AnonMoos (
talk)
10:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
桑田 is Kuwata; 尚樹 is Naoki. If I'm right in thinking that "transliteration" means "change from one script to another", then the transliteration of 桑田尚樹 is "Kuwata Naoki". En:WP's MoS dictates that the order should be switched to "Naoki Kuwata". --
Hoary (
talk)
13:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes,
Khajidha's right, and this aspect of the article is now fixed. But -- although it's a language-unrelated matter, sorry --
GrahamHardy, what eludes me is a sign of notability (encyclopedic significance). Predictably, the ja:WP article is no better; it just has unsourced lists. --
Hoary (
talk)
23:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
How vowels are taught to anglophones
The sound in some languages represented in the IPA as a lengthened e is taught to anglophones as the English long a as in say. Why?? The English sound in say is a diphthong; its IPA symbol is ei.
Georgia guy (
talk)
20:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
This question has many correct answers, including the accute-accented French e, the German long e, the letter eta in Classical Greek, and Zeire the Hebrew vowel sign.
Georgia guy (
talk)
21:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
And who teaches the sound in each of these languages as /eɪ/? Then we can look at the principles which each of these people used in choosing their presentation.
HenryFlower21:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
I took about 7-8 years worth of classroom instruction in French. Not one of the many teachers I had in all of that time taught me to say é as /eɪ/. Every single one of them said it /e/, which is correct. Now, for many years, I probably fucked that up horribly, and probably said /eɪ/ myself, being a terrible language learner. But I was not taught wrong. The teachers taught it correctly. If your teachers taught you differently, they were wrong. There is no other reasonable answer to your question. Proper language teachers will teach you how to speak a language properly. --
Jayron3220:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Well, have a look at
Stéphane Mallarmé. Even if understood as purely descriptive, the presence of the "English" pronunciation seems to just admit defeat. I also recall having seen
respellings of French words (shouldn't be done, that's for English) where é was represented as AY, as described by Georgia Guy, although I can't find an example now. --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
20:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm supporting Georgia Guy's statement: "The sound in some languages represented in the IPA as a lengthened e is taught to anglophones as the English long a as in say." This is what the IPA for an alleged "English" pronunciation of the name does ("alleged" because in the end it's just an imperfect rendering of the French pronunciation, due to the tendency of most native English speakers to diphtonguise long vowels). --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
00:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Ah, then you're misunderstanding how languages work. When English takes a word (such as a name) from another language, the word receives an English pronunciation, which is frequently different from that in the original language (that's why in English you go to /ˈpæɹ.ɪs/ rather than /paʁi/). That's perfect English pronunciation, not imperfect French. It's not really relevant to Anglophones speaking other languages, which was Guy's original question.
HenryFlower08:08, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Hey, I'm psychic - I knew that Paris was coming. I'd consider that an
exonym, despite the identical spelling in English and French. But anyway, if you don't like my example, then leave it. --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
08:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Georgia_guy -- "Zere" seems to be mainly a German spelling (while "Zeire" is kind of a strange spelling) for the Hebrew diacritic in question. In "Teach Yourself (Biblical) Hebrew" by R.K. Harrison, he suggests it should be pronounced as in "obey" (2nd syllable). Don't ask me why he did that, but the book does not use much professional linguistics terminology, and was published in 1955 (and of course refers to a dead language)...
AnonMoos (
talk)
06:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
OP is right that there is such phenomenon and it's everywhere, probably just not so much in classrooms. Think about language guides for tourists or pronunciation reference pages in dictionaries that don't use IPA. Of course, they can't be accurate because you have to respell with what you have. These works are not meant to be scientific. --
94.134.89.191 (
talk)
02:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
All three English renditions of the name, in your query and in the article, are identical. Is there something in the Japanese characters (which I cannot read) that raises a conflict? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195}
2.122.1.40 (
talk)
22:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
My understanding is that articles about Japanese use Western name order (forename surname) but then include the Japanese form in brackets, normally in the reverse order (see for example
Masaki Nashimoto) but this article has the same name order for both, so something is amiss, hence my query...
GrahamHardy (
talk)
00:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
But we also go by
WP:NAMESORT which states that Western name order should be used for Japanese names. Is anybody able to tell me whether the transliteration of 桑田 尚樹 is 'Naoki Kuwata' or 'Kuwata Naoki', that is all I ask...
GrahamHardy (
talk)
07:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
The "NAMESORT" policy is about ordering within categories, not really about choosing article titles (in fact, the bit about Toyohibiki Ryuta is telling you that the surname is first in that title).
The transliteration of the kanji is clearly "Naoki Kuwata" -- a reordering of the names to Kuwata Naoki would not fall under what is normally described as "transliteration"...
AnonMoos (
talk)
10:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
桑田 is Kuwata; 尚樹 is Naoki. If I'm right in thinking that "transliteration" means "change from one script to another", then the transliteration of 桑田尚樹 is "Kuwata Naoki". En:WP's MoS dictates that the order should be switched to "Naoki Kuwata". --
Hoary (
talk)
13:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes,
Khajidha's right, and this aspect of the article is now fixed. But -- although it's a language-unrelated matter, sorry --
GrahamHardy, what eludes me is a sign of notability (encyclopedic significance). Predictably, the ja:WP article is no better; it just has unsourced lists. --
Hoary (
talk)
23:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
How vowels are taught to anglophones
The sound in some languages represented in the IPA as a lengthened e is taught to anglophones as the English long a as in say. Why?? The English sound in say is a diphthong; its IPA symbol is ei.
Georgia guy (
talk)
20:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
This question has many correct answers, including the accute-accented French e, the German long e, the letter eta in Classical Greek, and Zeire the Hebrew vowel sign.
Georgia guy (
talk)
21:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
And who teaches the sound in each of these languages as /eɪ/? Then we can look at the principles which each of these people used in choosing their presentation.
HenryFlower21:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)reply
I took about 7-8 years worth of classroom instruction in French. Not one of the many teachers I had in all of that time taught me to say é as /eɪ/. Every single one of them said it /e/, which is correct. Now, for many years, I probably fucked that up horribly, and probably said /eɪ/ myself, being a terrible language learner. But I was not taught wrong. The teachers taught it correctly. If your teachers taught you differently, they were wrong. There is no other reasonable answer to your question. Proper language teachers will teach you how to speak a language properly. --
Jayron3220:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Well, have a look at
Stéphane Mallarmé. Even if understood as purely descriptive, the presence of the "English" pronunciation seems to just admit defeat. I also recall having seen
respellings of French words (shouldn't be done, that's for English) where é was represented as AY, as described by Georgia Guy, although I can't find an example now. --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
20:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm supporting Georgia Guy's statement: "The sound in some languages represented in the IPA as a lengthened e is taught to anglophones as the English long a as in say." This is what the IPA for an alleged "English" pronunciation of the name does ("alleged" because in the end it's just an imperfect rendering of the French pronunciation, due to the tendency of most native English speakers to diphtonguise long vowels). --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
00:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Ah, then you're misunderstanding how languages work. When English takes a word (such as a name) from another language, the word receives an English pronunciation, which is frequently different from that in the original language (that's why in English you go to /ˈpæɹ.ɪs/ rather than /paʁi/). That's perfect English pronunciation, not imperfect French. It's not really relevant to Anglophones speaking other languages, which was Guy's original question.
HenryFlower08:08, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Hey, I'm psychic - I knew that Paris was coming. I'd consider that an
exonym, despite the identical spelling in English and French. But anyway, if you don't like my example, then leave it. --
84.114.119.196 (
talk)
08:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Georgia_guy -- "Zere" seems to be mainly a German spelling (while "Zeire" is kind of a strange spelling) for the Hebrew diacritic in question. In "Teach Yourself (Biblical) Hebrew" by R.K. Harrison, he suggests it should be pronounced as in "obey" (2nd syllable). Don't ask me why he did that, but the book does not use much professional linguistics terminology, and was published in 1955 (and of course refers to a dead language)...
AnonMoos (
talk)
06:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)reply
OP is right that there is such phenomenon and it's everywhere, probably just not so much in classrooms. Think about language guides for tourists or pronunciation reference pages in dictionaries that don't use IPA. Of course, they can't be accurate because you have to respell with what you have. These works are not meant to be scientific. --
94.134.89.191 (
talk)
02:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)reply