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September 21 Information
Hello all. My Spanish friends have tasked me with finding some sort of disc like bread at the local Spanish convenience store. They refer to them as "diskos" (I have no idea how this is spelled), and this is all I really know about them. I tried googling a few things with no luck. Can anyone shed some light on this? 129.3.150.123 ( talk) 02:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Where in Spain? There's a Catalonian flat bread called "
coca", see
[1] for some more info. Is that it? --
Jayron
32 02:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The OP geolocates to Oswego, New York, so "local Spanish convenience store" presumably translates to Mexican convenience store. Or so it would seem. At any rate, this needs clarification.
Looie496 (
talk) 04:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Some common Latin American flatbreads are the Mexican tortilla (though I would find it hard to believe that something as ubiquitous in the U.S. would be unknown to any American.), the Central American Pupusa, or the sweet Sopaipilla. I'm out of ideas after that. There is a Puerto Rican bread called "pan de agua" which isn't really a flat bread; its a leavened bread. There's a Mexican version of the gyro called "tacos al pastor" that is served on pita bread, or a Mexican varient of pita bread. Otherwise I'm spent for ideas on Hispanic flat breads. -- Jayron 32 05:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The OP geolocates to Oswego, New York, so "local Spanish convenience store" presumably translates to Mexican convenience store. Or so it would seem. At any rate, this needs clarification.
Looie496 (
talk) 04:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- In Spanish the /k/ sound is spelt with a C (before A, O, U or a consonant) or QU (before E or I). So the spelling would be "discos".
Subliminable (
talk) 07:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would hazard an unscientific guess that this is a very colloquial use of the word "discos" or they are joking with you. Richard Avery ( talk) 07:49, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
What is the word for the phenomenon or viewpoint in which everything has a characteristic so nothing can be described as having the characteristic? For example, the editorial here which asks, "And in a world where almost everyone is, by some degree, a nerd, is anyone, anymore?" Or the conlanging blog entry here which states: "This specific hole exists because I think that art has been defined so broadly that everything and nothing is art by now". Subliminable ( talk) 07:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know of a word for it, but it's a consequence of defining things in relative terms rather than absolute. For example, to win, somebody else has to lose. So, in kids' sports where everyone gets a trophy and is called a "winner", it really loses it's meaning (although here I suppose the "losers" could be those who don't play at all.) StuRat ( talk) 20:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is a consequence of the Genus–differentia definition of concepts. As StuRat mentions, if a concept is not differentiated from other things it has no real meaning because it has no boundary. You might also look at the tangentially relevant metaphysical corrolary of Leibniz's identity of indiscernibles and here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-indiscernible/ μηδείς ( talk) 20:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- It seems akin to moral relativism. Examples abound. One that comes to mind is Paul Newman's character in The Sting, speaking of Chicago in the time the film is set: "No point in being a grifter if it's the same thing as being a citizen." ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
| OP refered to RSN |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Hi. Is this paper from Mali a reliable source? -- Dweller ( talk) 08:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
|
At just after two minutes into this clip, the interviewer of Mark Steyn suggests people may be "troshing the clossics" and later on suggests this is happening in "closs". (With the vowel of father, not boss.) Specifically what sort of accent is this (I get the guy's Canadian) or is it due to some sort of influence, like Steyn's public school accent? μηδείς ( talk) 19:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently, he was born in Toronto, but went to school in Birmingham, and then worked in London. He currently lives in New Hampshire. (All of that from Mark Steyn). He "says "idear", something I've never heard from a Canadian who grew up here. I suspect his accent has been influenced by all the places he has lived and worked. Bielle ( talk) 20:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I've just listened to the clip - it's the interviewer whose accent is in question by the OP rather than Mark Steyr. Alansplodge ( talk) 20:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think he's using the vowel of father at all. It's just that his /æ/, his TRAP vowel to use
John C. Wells's terminology, is slightly lower and further back than what Americans (especially those who tend toward
æ-tensing) are accustomed to hearing. This retraction of /æ/ toward the cardinal vowel [
a is part of the
Canadian Shift.
Angr (
talk) 20:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The interviewer is
Charles Adler (broadcaster). His article says that he is Canadian with Hungarian ancestry, but his accent sounds purely Canadian to me -- a mix of standard broadcast American and a bit of
hoser.
Looie496 (
talk) 20:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have the tense/lax /æ/ split, not /æ/ tensing. His TRAP vowels sound just to the back side of /a/ to me. But I am not sure he backs all his TRAP vowels. I'll have to listen again. I find his accent not so annoying as the northern cities vowel shift but much harder to understand--it all sounds very mumbled, all schwas and ahs. This still doesn't sound like anything I am used to hearing that I can associate with anything specific from Canada--certainly not Kids in the Hall. Can anyone (1) give a narrow location for this accent (a city) and (2) suggest another clip with another speaker where I can hear it? Thanks. μηδείς ( talk) 21:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The interviewer is
Charles Adler (broadcaster). His article says that he is Canadian with Hungarian ancestry, but his accent sounds purely Canadian to me -- a mix of standard broadcast American and a bit of
hoser.
Looie496 (
talk) 20:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Being a Canadian, the only "questionable" accent I heard was Steyn's, so I grandly dismissed the actual question and answered the one I thought should have been asked -all quite subconsciously, of course. I am still not hearing anything odd, but here is a link to some podcasts that might help you further. Sorry about the earlier distraction. Bielle ( talk)
- Turns out he is almost as peripatetic as Steyn, but within a single country. This, from here :
- A 32-year radio and television broadcast veteran, Adler started his career when he was only 18 years old, in Montreal. He attended McGill University during the day and produced rockn’roll radio shows in the evening at CKGM. Behind the scenes was not his scene and so he moved on to Calgary in the winter of 1974 and became a rock jock for the venerable CKXL. For the next fifteen years he toured Canada, working in Vancouver, Montreal, Hamilton, Toronto, London, and Winnipeg. Adler worked for several broadcast legends, including CJAD in Montreal, CHUM and CFRB in Toronto. A six year stint as News Director at CKY in Winnipeg gave Adler the motivation to crank it up a notch and get involved in talk radio. It was Calgary that gave Adler his start in talk radio where he hosted HOT TALK on CISS - AM. Adler has a unique brand of straight talk filled with humorous rants and honest observation. In 1992 Adler took his microphone to Tampa, Florida and turned Hot Talk into a nationally syndicated show hitting more than 120 markets in the USA. In 1994, he moved up to Boston, and began hosting Adler on Line, a primetime television show for which he won a Best TV Host for New England Emmy. Following a return to Canada with CFRB in Toronto in 1996, Adler joined CJOB Winnipeg, where his show has one of the highest audience share in North America. Winnipeg is where Adler has spent more than a third of his adult life and he now considers it his adopted hometown. In January 2005, the CORUS RADIO NETWORK began to air Adler on Line the National Edition. In addition to his radio broadcasts, Charles writes newspaper columns for Sun Media.
- Bielle ( talk) 21:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds like he is trying for a neutral "general Canadian" accent, the type a national newsreader might have (like
Peter Mansbridge or
Lloyd Robertson or
Sandie Rinaldo). He also sounds like he's trying to be a bit hoity-toity. Keep in mind that Sun News is the Canadian equivalent of Fox News, or at least it wishes it was, and everyone involved with it is a giant asshole. Er, citation needed etc.
Adam Bishop (
talk) 22:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- ^^^^ What he said!
Bielle (
talk) 23:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- But this doesn't really help. Those backed /æ/ vowels are certainly not broadcast standard or something you would expect someone to affect intentionally, least because he's on Fox News. Perhaps this is typical of Montreal? What I'd really like is an example of another Canadian doing this. Is there a clip of Mansbridge or Rinaldo doing this, for example?
μηδείς (
talk) 02:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, as Angr says above, it's a normal /æ/ vowel, at least for Canada.
Here is an example of Lloyd Robertson using numerous words with that vowel even in just the first 30 seconds - and as an extra bonus, you get to hear
Conrad Black doing the same thing. I'd still say it's a bit affected; maybe typical of an older generation, or a mark of education, or a pattern of speech affected by people who are used to speaking in public/on TV (all of which would fit Adler, Robertson, and Black). An old-fashioned attempt to sound a bit more British, basically. It doesn't sound strange to me at all though. I have the same vowel, although maybe slightly more forward (being younger and not a television personality). Ah, but the Kids in the Hall, as you mention, don't sound like that, and they are also on TV...but that's why I suspect it might be a generational thing. But none of KITH has an /æ/ as forward as you are used to in the US, do they? Unless they are specifically trying to imitate an American accent...
Adam Bishop (
talk) 09:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- That link to the Black interview was very helpful. The female interviewer had the most backed ashes, which is consistent with
Canadian shift. There is either some free variation or phonemic conditioning, since the quality varies from a lax ash all the way to a full ah. Adler does indeed say /klasrum/ about halfway through his interview with Steyn.
μηδείς (
talk) 16:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Oh yeah. That's Lisa LaFlamme, who has the same "newscaster accent" but she's a bit younger so maybe it's not as strong! Adam Bishop ( talk) 18:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- That link to the Black interview was very helpful. The female interviewer had the most backed ashes, which is consistent with
Canadian shift. There is either some free variation or phonemic conditioning, since the quality varies from a lax ash all the way to a full ah. Adler does indeed say /klasrum/ about halfway through his interview with Steyn.
μηδείς (
talk) 16:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, as Angr says above, it's a normal /æ/ vowel, at least for Canada.
Here is an example of Lloyd Robertson using numerous words with that vowel even in just the first 30 seconds - and as an extra bonus, you get to hear
Conrad Black doing the same thing. I'd still say it's a bit affected; maybe typical of an older generation, or a mark of education, or a pattern of speech affected by people who are used to speaking in public/on TV (all of which would fit Adler, Robertson, and Black). An old-fashioned attempt to sound a bit more British, basically. It doesn't sound strange to me at all though. I have the same vowel, although maybe slightly more forward (being younger and not a television personality). Ah, but the Kids in the Hall, as you mention, don't sound like that, and they are also on TV...but that's why I suspect it might be a generational thing. But none of KITH has an /æ/ as forward as you are used to in the US, do they? Unless they are specifically trying to imitate an American accent...
Adam Bishop (
talk) 09:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- But this doesn't really help. Those backed /æ/ vowels are certainly not broadcast standard or something you would expect someone to affect intentionally, least because he's on Fox News. Perhaps this is typical of Montreal? What I'd really like is an example of another Canadian doing this. Is there a clip of Mansbridge or Rinaldo doing this, for example?
μηδείς (
talk) 02:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- ^^^^ What he said!
Bielle (
talk) 23:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Can someone take a listen to this Psy Gangnam Style video and tell me if there are references to "Love Boat" in it? Thanks Bielle ( talk) 23:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < September 20 | << Aug | September | Oct >> | September 22 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
September 21 Information
Hello all. My Spanish friends have tasked me with finding some sort of disc like bread at the local Spanish convenience store. They refer to them as "diskos" (I have no idea how this is spelled), and this is all I really know about them. I tried googling a few things with no luck. Can anyone shed some light on this? 129.3.150.123 ( talk) 02:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Where in Spain? There's a Catalonian flat bread called "
coca", see
[1] for some more info. Is that it? --
Jayron
32 02:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The OP geolocates to Oswego, New York, so "local Spanish convenience store" presumably translates to Mexican convenience store. Or so it would seem. At any rate, this needs clarification.
Looie496 (
talk) 04:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Some common Latin American flatbreads are the Mexican tortilla (though I would find it hard to believe that something as ubiquitous in the U.S. would be unknown to any American.), the Central American Pupusa, or the sweet Sopaipilla. I'm out of ideas after that. There is a Puerto Rican bread called "pan de agua" which isn't really a flat bread; its a leavened bread. There's a Mexican version of the gyro called "tacos al pastor" that is served on pita bread, or a Mexican varient of pita bread. Otherwise I'm spent for ideas on Hispanic flat breads. -- Jayron 32 05:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The OP geolocates to Oswego, New York, so "local Spanish convenience store" presumably translates to Mexican convenience store. Or so it would seem. At any rate, this needs clarification.
Looie496 (
talk) 04:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- In Spanish the /k/ sound is spelt with a C (before A, O, U or a consonant) or QU (before E or I). So the spelling would be "discos".
Subliminable (
talk) 07:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would hazard an unscientific guess that this is a very colloquial use of the word "discos" or they are joking with you. Richard Avery ( talk) 07:49, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
What is the word for the phenomenon or viewpoint in which everything has a characteristic so nothing can be described as having the characteristic? For example, the editorial here which asks, "And in a world where almost everyone is, by some degree, a nerd, is anyone, anymore?" Or the conlanging blog entry here which states: "This specific hole exists because I think that art has been defined so broadly that everything and nothing is art by now". Subliminable ( talk) 07:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know of a word for it, but it's a consequence of defining things in relative terms rather than absolute. For example, to win, somebody else has to lose. So, in kids' sports where everyone gets a trophy and is called a "winner", it really loses it's meaning (although here I suppose the "losers" could be those who don't play at all.) StuRat ( talk) 20:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is a consequence of the Genus–differentia definition of concepts. As StuRat mentions, if a concept is not differentiated from other things it has no real meaning because it has no boundary. You might also look at the tangentially relevant metaphysical corrolary of Leibniz's identity of indiscernibles and here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-indiscernible/ μηδείς ( talk) 20:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- It seems akin to moral relativism. Examples abound. One that comes to mind is Paul Newman's character in The Sting, speaking of Chicago in the time the film is set: "No point in being a grifter if it's the same thing as being a citizen." ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
| OP refered to RSN |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Hi. Is this paper from Mali a reliable source? -- Dweller ( talk) 08:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
|
At just after two minutes into this clip, the interviewer of Mark Steyn suggests people may be "troshing the clossics" and later on suggests this is happening in "closs". (With the vowel of father, not boss.) Specifically what sort of accent is this (I get the guy's Canadian) or is it due to some sort of influence, like Steyn's public school accent? μηδείς ( talk) 19:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently, he was born in Toronto, but went to school in Birmingham, and then worked in London. He currently lives in New Hampshire. (All of that from Mark Steyn). He "says "idear", something I've never heard from a Canadian who grew up here. I suspect his accent has been influenced by all the places he has lived and worked. Bielle ( talk) 20:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I've just listened to the clip - it's the interviewer whose accent is in question by the OP rather than Mark Steyr. Alansplodge ( talk) 20:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think he's using the vowel of father at all. It's just that his /æ/, his TRAP vowel to use
John C. Wells's terminology, is slightly lower and further back than what Americans (especially those who tend toward
æ-tensing) are accustomed to hearing. This retraction of /æ/ toward the cardinal vowel [
a is part of the
Canadian Shift.
Angr (
talk) 20:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The interviewer is
Charles Adler (broadcaster). His article says that he is Canadian with Hungarian ancestry, but his accent sounds purely Canadian to me -- a mix of standard broadcast American and a bit of
hoser.
Looie496 (
talk) 20:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have the tense/lax /æ/ split, not /æ/ tensing. His TRAP vowels sound just to the back side of /a/ to me. But I am not sure he backs all his TRAP vowels. I'll have to listen again. I find his accent not so annoying as the northern cities vowel shift but much harder to understand--it all sounds very mumbled, all schwas and ahs. This still doesn't sound like anything I am used to hearing that I can associate with anything specific from Canada--certainly not Kids in the Hall. Can anyone (1) give a narrow location for this accent (a city) and (2) suggest another clip with another speaker where I can hear it? Thanks. μηδείς ( talk) 21:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The interviewer is
Charles Adler (broadcaster). His article says that he is Canadian with Hungarian ancestry, but his accent sounds purely Canadian to me -- a mix of standard broadcast American and a bit of
hoser.
Looie496 (
talk) 20:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Being a Canadian, the only "questionable" accent I heard was Steyn's, so I grandly dismissed the actual question and answered the one I thought should have been asked -all quite subconsciously, of course. I am still not hearing anything odd, but here is a link to some podcasts that might help you further. Sorry about the earlier distraction. Bielle ( talk)
- Turns out he is almost as peripatetic as Steyn, but within a single country. This, from here :
- A 32-year radio and television broadcast veteran, Adler started his career when he was only 18 years old, in Montreal. He attended McGill University during the day and produced rockn’roll radio shows in the evening at CKGM. Behind the scenes was not his scene and so he moved on to Calgary in the winter of 1974 and became a rock jock for the venerable CKXL. For the next fifteen years he toured Canada, working in Vancouver, Montreal, Hamilton, Toronto, London, and Winnipeg. Adler worked for several broadcast legends, including CJAD in Montreal, CHUM and CFRB in Toronto. A six year stint as News Director at CKY in Winnipeg gave Adler the motivation to crank it up a notch and get involved in talk radio. It was Calgary that gave Adler his start in talk radio where he hosted HOT TALK on CISS - AM. Adler has a unique brand of straight talk filled with humorous rants and honest observation. In 1992 Adler took his microphone to Tampa, Florida and turned Hot Talk into a nationally syndicated show hitting more than 120 markets in the USA. In 1994, he moved up to Boston, and began hosting Adler on Line, a primetime television show for which he won a Best TV Host for New England Emmy. Following a return to Canada with CFRB in Toronto in 1996, Adler joined CJOB Winnipeg, where his show has one of the highest audience share in North America. Winnipeg is where Adler has spent more than a third of his adult life and he now considers it his adopted hometown. In January 2005, the CORUS RADIO NETWORK began to air Adler on Line the National Edition. In addition to his radio broadcasts, Charles writes newspaper columns for Sun Media.
- Bielle ( talk) 21:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds like he is trying for a neutral "general Canadian" accent, the type a national newsreader might have (like
Peter Mansbridge or
Lloyd Robertson or
Sandie Rinaldo). He also sounds like he's trying to be a bit hoity-toity. Keep in mind that Sun News is the Canadian equivalent of Fox News, or at least it wishes it was, and everyone involved with it is a giant asshole. Er, citation needed etc.
Adam Bishop (
talk) 22:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- ^^^^ What he said!
Bielle (
talk) 23:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- But this doesn't really help. Those backed /æ/ vowels are certainly not broadcast standard or something you would expect someone to affect intentionally, least because he's on Fox News. Perhaps this is typical of Montreal? What I'd really like is an example of another Canadian doing this. Is there a clip of Mansbridge or Rinaldo doing this, for example?
μηδείς (
talk) 02:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, as Angr says above, it's a normal /æ/ vowel, at least for Canada.
Here is an example of Lloyd Robertson using numerous words with that vowel even in just the first 30 seconds - and as an extra bonus, you get to hear
Conrad Black doing the same thing. I'd still say it's a bit affected; maybe typical of an older generation, or a mark of education, or a pattern of speech affected by people who are used to speaking in public/on TV (all of which would fit Adler, Robertson, and Black). An old-fashioned attempt to sound a bit more British, basically. It doesn't sound strange to me at all though. I have the same vowel, although maybe slightly more forward (being younger and not a television personality). Ah, but the Kids in the Hall, as you mention, don't sound like that, and they are also on TV...but that's why I suspect it might be a generational thing. But none of KITH has an /æ/ as forward as you are used to in the US, do they? Unless they are specifically trying to imitate an American accent...
Adam Bishop (
talk) 09:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- That link to the Black interview was very helpful. The female interviewer had the most backed ashes, which is consistent with
Canadian shift. There is either some free variation or phonemic conditioning, since the quality varies from a lax ash all the way to a full ah. Adler does indeed say /klasrum/ about halfway through his interview with Steyn.
μηδείς (
talk) 16:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Oh yeah. That's Lisa LaFlamme, who has the same "newscaster accent" but she's a bit younger so maybe it's not as strong! Adam Bishop ( talk) 18:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- That link to the Black interview was very helpful. The female interviewer had the most backed ashes, which is consistent with
Canadian shift. There is either some free variation or phonemic conditioning, since the quality varies from a lax ash all the way to a full ah. Adler does indeed say /klasrum/ about halfway through his interview with Steyn.
μηδείς (
talk) 16:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, as Angr says above, it's a normal /æ/ vowel, at least for Canada.
Here is an example of Lloyd Robertson using numerous words with that vowel even in just the first 30 seconds - and as an extra bonus, you get to hear
Conrad Black doing the same thing. I'd still say it's a bit affected; maybe typical of an older generation, or a mark of education, or a pattern of speech affected by people who are used to speaking in public/on TV (all of which would fit Adler, Robertson, and Black). An old-fashioned attempt to sound a bit more British, basically. It doesn't sound strange to me at all though. I have the same vowel, although maybe slightly more forward (being younger and not a television personality). Ah, but the Kids in the Hall, as you mention, don't sound like that, and they are also on TV...but that's why I suspect it might be a generational thing. But none of KITH has an /æ/ as forward as you are used to in the US, do they? Unless they are specifically trying to imitate an American accent...
Adam Bishop (
talk) 09:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- But this doesn't really help. Those backed /æ/ vowels are certainly not broadcast standard or something you would expect someone to affect intentionally, least because he's on Fox News. Perhaps this is typical of Montreal? What I'd really like is an example of another Canadian doing this. Is there a clip of Mansbridge or Rinaldo doing this, for example?
μηδείς (
talk) 02:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- ^^^^ What he said!
Bielle (
talk) 23:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Can someone take a listen to this Psy Gangnam Style video and tell me if there are references to "Love Boat" in it? Thanks Bielle ( talk) 23:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)