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Strangely, no-one seems to know. The OED simply states that it comes from the name "Billy" + goat, and the earliest example of usage that they can find is in 1861 (103 years later than the first use of "nanny goat"). Perhaps someone can find a better explanation?
Dbfirs09:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
There are several bird and animal names where what are apparently forenames were appended to the original word, but I don't know whether that was in the 19th century or earlier, or whether there is any particular relationship between them. "Billy goat" and "nanny goat" are two, but there are also, for example, "tom tit", "robin redbreast", "jenny wren", "mag_pie", and no doubt others. The best source of information might be
here, if anyone has access to it.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
09:10, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Another example of using a personal name to distinguish between the sexes of animals is "tomcat". I don't know about "jenny wren", but I think "tom tit", "robin redbreast", and "magpie" can refer to animals of either sex. I think "jackass" started out like "tomcat" (male personal name + animal name to indicate a male animal), but since the term nowadays almost never refers to the animal, it's hard to say whether that's still true. +
Angr11:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
This is my best guess, and from it you might be able to find references, but it might come from the Norman Conquest, where the French imported their own names for English animals: Reynard the Fox, and Broc the Badger come to mind: at the same time, the dual names for the animal and their meat came in, so we have deer/venison, pig/pork, cow/beef, sheep/mutton (i.e. English/French). Sorry don't have time to find references at the moment - may try later, unless someone else can look this up. --
TammyMoet (
talk)
12:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
I found an
1814 edition of
Lessons for Children that contains the following passage, clearly referring to goats: "There was once a little boy, who was a sad coward. He was afraid of two little kids, Nanny and Billy, when they came and put their noses through the pales of the court; and he would not pluck Billy by the beard."--
Cam (
talk)
16:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
An excellent find! I wonder if this is the original source of "billy-goat". The "Nanny" goes back further to 1758 at least.
Dbfirs23:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Here's an interesting writeup from a UK source
[1] that suggests the "Billy" part was a euphemism for Satan, and that depictions of Satan having a goat-like head with a beard are connected with the term. What's unclear is which derived from which. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
13:02, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Depictions of Satan as a goat appear to derive mainly from mid-19th century occultist writer
Eliphas Levi (see
Baphomet), and from what I can tell such depictions would have been rather obscure (outside of small occultist circles) until the 1960s...
AnonMoos (
talk)
14:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
So 1814 is the earliest referenced usage (and might just be an original coinage to match "Nanny" which already existed). That gives just enough time for child readers in 1814 to coin the term "billy-goat", to use it in conversation, and for it to reach print in 1861.
Dbfirs17:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the interesting link (the dialect hasn't changed much - I can read it fairly easily). Evidently "billy goat" dates back further. "Nanny" was already being applied to a goat (not a grandmother) as early as 1758. Can anyone explain why?
Dbfirs10:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)reply
Game to make as many words as possible from a larger word
Is there a name or term for the game or practice of constructing smaller words from the letters of a larger word? e.g. RETINAS, you could make EAT, TEAR, TEARS, SAINT, etc. The
anagram article refers to these as an imperfect anagram, but I wondered if there was another, more specific, term. Thank you for your help! --
Rajah (
talk)
18:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Or a term/name for just the practice of making a smaller word out of another word? (I guess that is imperfect anagram, but I was wondering if there's some neologism I don't know about, like SUBANAGRAM, SUBGRAM, SUBAGRAM, etc. --
Rajah (
talk)
18:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
ok, google seems to show a lot of results for "subanagram". I guess this was confessional debugging in a way. Thanks! --
Rajah (
talk)
18:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
In Italian, which has a very developed nomenclature for word-games, we call it logogrifo[2]. My Italian-English dictionary gives logogrifo-logogriph, but I don't know if logogriph has the exact meaning or just means any kind of riddles.--
151.51.16.47 (
talk)
22:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
Strangely, no-one seems to know. The OED simply states that it comes from the name "Billy" + goat, and the earliest example of usage that they can find is in 1861 (103 years later than the first use of "nanny goat"). Perhaps someone can find a better explanation?
Dbfirs09:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
There are several bird and animal names where what are apparently forenames were appended to the original word, but I don't know whether that was in the 19th century or earlier, or whether there is any particular relationship between them. "Billy goat" and "nanny goat" are two, but there are also, for example, "tom tit", "robin redbreast", "jenny wren", "mag_pie", and no doubt others. The best source of information might be
here, if anyone has access to it.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
09:10, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Another example of using a personal name to distinguish between the sexes of animals is "tomcat". I don't know about "jenny wren", but I think "tom tit", "robin redbreast", and "magpie" can refer to animals of either sex. I think "jackass" started out like "tomcat" (male personal name + animal name to indicate a male animal), but since the term nowadays almost never refers to the animal, it's hard to say whether that's still true. +
Angr11:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
This is my best guess, and from it you might be able to find references, but it might come from the Norman Conquest, where the French imported their own names for English animals: Reynard the Fox, and Broc the Badger come to mind: at the same time, the dual names for the animal and their meat came in, so we have deer/venison, pig/pork, cow/beef, sheep/mutton (i.e. English/French). Sorry don't have time to find references at the moment - may try later, unless someone else can look this up. --
TammyMoet (
talk)
12:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
I found an
1814 edition of
Lessons for Children that contains the following passage, clearly referring to goats: "There was once a little boy, who was a sad coward. He was afraid of two little kids, Nanny and Billy, when they came and put their noses through the pales of the court; and he would not pluck Billy by the beard."--
Cam (
talk)
16:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
An excellent find! I wonder if this is the original source of "billy-goat". The "Nanny" goes back further to 1758 at least.
Dbfirs23:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Here's an interesting writeup from a UK source
[1] that suggests the "Billy" part was a euphemism for Satan, and that depictions of Satan having a goat-like head with a beard are connected with the term. What's unclear is which derived from which. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
13:02, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Depictions of Satan as a goat appear to derive mainly from mid-19th century occultist writer
Eliphas Levi (see
Baphomet), and from what I can tell such depictions would have been rather obscure (outside of small occultist circles) until the 1960s...
AnonMoos (
talk)
14:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
So 1814 is the earliest referenced usage (and might just be an original coinage to match "Nanny" which already existed). That gives just enough time for child readers in 1814 to coin the term "billy-goat", to use it in conversation, and for it to reach print in 1861.
Dbfirs17:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the interesting link (the dialect hasn't changed much - I can read it fairly easily). Evidently "billy goat" dates back further. "Nanny" was already being applied to a goat (not a grandmother) as early as 1758. Can anyone explain why?
Dbfirs10:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)reply
Game to make as many words as possible from a larger word
Is there a name or term for the game or practice of constructing smaller words from the letters of a larger word? e.g. RETINAS, you could make EAT, TEAR, TEARS, SAINT, etc. The
anagram article refers to these as an imperfect anagram, but I wondered if there was another, more specific, term. Thank you for your help! --
Rajah (
talk)
18:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Or a term/name for just the practice of making a smaller word out of another word? (I guess that is imperfect anagram, but I was wondering if there's some neologism I don't know about, like SUBANAGRAM, SUBGRAM, SUBAGRAM, etc. --
Rajah (
talk)
18:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
ok, google seems to show a lot of results for "subanagram". I guess this was confessional debugging in a way. Thanks! --
Rajah (
talk)
18:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply
In Italian, which has a very developed nomenclature for word-games, we call it logogrifo[2]. My Italian-English dictionary gives logogrifo-logogriph, but I don't know if logogriph has the exact meaning or just means any kind of riddles.--
151.51.16.47 (
talk)
22:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)reply