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I know of only one case where
That one case, as I indicated, is Jack Ruby's murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Has this in fact happened on other known occasions, or is it possible that the Ruby/Oswald case is unique in history? -- 142.112.221.43 ( talk) 05:14, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
“ Miss Otis Regrets” … DOR (ex-HK) ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia's American fast food restaurant template classifies it as a beverage place, but this article:
Visualizing America’s Most Popular Fast Food Chains (visualcapitalist.com)
still classifies it as a doughnut place regardless of what it now is. Do people disagree about restaurant categories?? Georgia guy ( talk) 17:57, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Over the past few months, I have been coming back again and again to Outer Manchuria. I've concluded that the sense of Outer Manchuria referring specifically to Outer Manchuria as the territories ceded by China to Russia in 1858 and 1860 is a Wikipedia citogenesis from 2004. That is to say: "Outer Manchuria" (referring to the ceded territories) was made up on Wikipedia in 2004. (1) Is that true? Please explain any opinion. (2) There's no second question. I'd just like to have a direct and clear confirmation or disconfirmation on that first question, or, barring that, a clear "maybe". (3) Please go check out and build up the Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries for Outer Manchuria, which I've done work on. I'm coming here because I can't believe what I seem to have discovered, and I'm hoping you will put me in my place. Thanks! -- Geographyinitiative ( talk) 20:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan." [5] (Google Books only allows one to see the first four words), in which "
seine" refers to "
das Reich Stalin’s". -- Lambiam 09:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan.". Google Translate gives: "Now his imperialist goals are initially limited to Mongolia, outer Manchuria and East Turkestan." Think about it like this Lambiam: in 1931, did Stalin have imperialist goals in controlling Vladivostok? Hell no he didn't: Vladivostok was not an imperial goal, it was a foregone conclusion that it was part of the USSR. He had goals in areas that weren't part of the USSR. In that text, I would tell you that äußere Mandschurei refers to the fringes of the Manchuria inside China that was not part of the USSR, that is, the parts near the Chinese Eastern Railway. Check out my work at Wiktionary:Citations:Outer_Manchuria#outer_Manchuria_(remote_region). I think that this German cite would fit snuggly into that pattern, if I'm understanding the source correctly. (This was just a cursory glance not a full analysis.) Geographyinitiative ( talk) 09:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC) (Modified)
I am impressed and surprised. You seem to have made a very solid case with your citations. I also looked up the Chinese equivalents 外滿洲 and 外東北 on Google, but again can't find anything pre-2004 that uses that to mean the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860. (Though I suppose I could have missed something.)
Nonetheless, I have to ask: so what if it is citogenesis from there? If it was a recent citogenesis, sure, but the citogenesis has been going on for almost two decades. By now the term is, as you've demonstrated with citations, quite securely attested with this new meaning in post-2004 academic sources, and Chinese websites have very much picked it up. That seems to be enough to hang an article on: whatever it used to mean before 2004, "outer Manchuria" now very much means "the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860".
P.S. There's also the similar term "Outer Northwest" (the areas ceded at the 1864 Treaty of Tarbagatai). Double sharp ( talk) 15:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Let me try to sum up what we know for certain.
Part of Qing China that was historically part of Manchuria was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1858 and officially ceded to Russia in a treaty between China and Russia that was part of the 1860 Convention of Peking. For the purpose of the discussion, let us refer to this ceded territory as "Ceded Manchuria". When the Russian Empire was succeeded by, successively, the Russian Republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, and the Russian Federation, Ceded Manchuria remained part of Russia.
The term "Outer Manchuria" has been used as a name for Ceded Manchuria. The question under discussion here is, when was the term "Outer Manchuria" first used specifically as a name for Ceded Manchuria?
We know that the term was introduced in this specific sense in Wikipedia on 10 May 2004 at 15:54 (UTC). We know that the term was used earlier (elsewhere) in a different sense. So the question before us is, did the (anonymous) editor who introduced the term here coin the term, or had it been used in this specific sense before 10 May 2004? (Note that the same edit also introduced the term "Inner Manchuria".)
To qualify, when used in a historical context after 1858–60, as an attestation of a use of the term "Outer Manchuria" in the specific sense of Ceded Manchuria, it is necessary that the area referred to is in that context part of Russia. There are uses of "outer Manchuria" referring to parts of China after 1860. Evidently, these parts were not ceded to Russia, and are therefore distinct from Ceded Manchuria. It appears that, thus far, the search for earlier attestations than 2004 has come up empty-handed. -- Lambiam 05:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
The name Wai Dongbei does not appear to be used by Chinese academics, but it has gained prominence in non-academic sites such as Chinese Wikipedia ( http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/外东北)Note Wai Dongbei that is not "Outer Manchuria" but "Outer Northeast" as discussed in the text p. 73. There are other examples such as [6]
For China the loss of ‘Outer Manchuria’ (wai dongbei 外东北) in 1860...外东北 ngram fiveby( zero) 13:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Because it is located at the crossroads of various empires, Manchuria exemplifies the cartographic complexity of colliding geobodies.fiveby( zero) 14:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Beijing was harshly criticized on the China Daily’s online forum for the treasonous act of ceding Chinese territory... traced to the Web site of the China Cartographic Press...the Chinese government quickly removed these Web pages.That would have been October, but maybe a spike in interest within China running up to the signing? They don't go toward saying the IP was or wasn't the first to render as 'Outer Manchuria', but at least point to the newness of the concept and internet usage. fiveby( zero) 20:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Humanities desk | ||
---|---|---|
< June 8 | << May | June | Jul >> | June 10 > |
Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives |
---|
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
I know of only one case where
That one case, as I indicated, is Jack Ruby's murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Has this in fact happened on other known occasions, or is it possible that the Ruby/Oswald case is unique in history? -- 142.112.221.43 ( talk) 05:14, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
“ Miss Otis Regrets” … DOR (ex-HK) ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia's American fast food restaurant template classifies it as a beverage place, but this article:
Visualizing America’s Most Popular Fast Food Chains (visualcapitalist.com)
still classifies it as a doughnut place regardless of what it now is. Do people disagree about restaurant categories?? Georgia guy ( talk) 17:57, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Over the past few months, I have been coming back again and again to Outer Manchuria. I've concluded that the sense of Outer Manchuria referring specifically to Outer Manchuria as the territories ceded by China to Russia in 1858 and 1860 is a Wikipedia citogenesis from 2004. That is to say: "Outer Manchuria" (referring to the ceded territories) was made up on Wikipedia in 2004. (1) Is that true? Please explain any opinion. (2) There's no second question. I'd just like to have a direct and clear confirmation or disconfirmation on that first question, or, barring that, a clear "maybe". (3) Please go check out and build up the Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries for Outer Manchuria, which I've done work on. I'm coming here because I can't believe what I seem to have discovered, and I'm hoping you will put me in my place. Thanks! -- Geographyinitiative ( talk) 20:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan." [5] (Google Books only allows one to see the first four words), in which "
seine" refers to "
das Reich Stalin’s". -- Lambiam 09:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan.". Google Translate gives: "Now his imperialist goals are initially limited to Mongolia, outer Manchuria and East Turkestan." Think about it like this Lambiam: in 1931, did Stalin have imperialist goals in controlling Vladivostok? Hell no he didn't: Vladivostok was not an imperial goal, it was a foregone conclusion that it was part of the USSR. He had goals in areas that weren't part of the USSR. In that text, I would tell you that äußere Mandschurei refers to the fringes of the Manchuria inside China that was not part of the USSR, that is, the parts near the Chinese Eastern Railway. Check out my work at Wiktionary:Citations:Outer_Manchuria#outer_Manchuria_(remote_region). I think that this German cite would fit snuggly into that pattern, if I'm understanding the source correctly. (This was just a cursory glance not a full analysis.) Geographyinitiative ( talk) 09:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC) (Modified)
I am impressed and surprised. You seem to have made a very solid case with your citations. I also looked up the Chinese equivalents 外滿洲 and 外東北 on Google, but again can't find anything pre-2004 that uses that to mean the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860. (Though I suppose I could have missed something.)
Nonetheless, I have to ask: so what if it is citogenesis from there? If it was a recent citogenesis, sure, but the citogenesis has been going on for almost two decades. By now the term is, as you've demonstrated with citations, quite securely attested with this new meaning in post-2004 academic sources, and Chinese websites have very much picked it up. That seems to be enough to hang an article on: whatever it used to mean before 2004, "outer Manchuria" now very much means "the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860".
P.S. There's also the similar term "Outer Northwest" (the areas ceded at the 1864 Treaty of Tarbagatai). Double sharp ( talk) 15:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Let me try to sum up what we know for certain.
Part of Qing China that was historically part of Manchuria was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1858 and officially ceded to Russia in a treaty between China and Russia that was part of the 1860 Convention of Peking. For the purpose of the discussion, let us refer to this ceded territory as "Ceded Manchuria". When the Russian Empire was succeeded by, successively, the Russian Republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, and the Russian Federation, Ceded Manchuria remained part of Russia.
The term "Outer Manchuria" has been used as a name for Ceded Manchuria. The question under discussion here is, when was the term "Outer Manchuria" first used specifically as a name for Ceded Manchuria?
We know that the term was introduced in this specific sense in Wikipedia on 10 May 2004 at 15:54 (UTC). We know that the term was used earlier (elsewhere) in a different sense. So the question before us is, did the (anonymous) editor who introduced the term here coin the term, or had it been used in this specific sense before 10 May 2004? (Note that the same edit also introduced the term "Inner Manchuria".)
To qualify, when used in a historical context after 1858–60, as an attestation of a use of the term "Outer Manchuria" in the specific sense of Ceded Manchuria, it is necessary that the area referred to is in that context part of Russia. There are uses of "outer Manchuria" referring to parts of China after 1860. Evidently, these parts were not ceded to Russia, and are therefore distinct from Ceded Manchuria. It appears that, thus far, the search for earlier attestations than 2004 has come up empty-handed. -- Lambiam 05:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
The name Wai Dongbei does not appear to be used by Chinese academics, but it has gained prominence in non-academic sites such as Chinese Wikipedia ( http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/外东北)Note Wai Dongbei that is not "Outer Manchuria" but "Outer Northeast" as discussed in the text p. 73. There are other examples such as [6]
For China the loss of ‘Outer Manchuria’ (wai dongbei 外东北) in 1860...外东北 ngram fiveby( zero) 13:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Because it is located at the crossroads of various empires, Manchuria exemplifies the cartographic complexity of colliding geobodies.fiveby( zero) 14:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Beijing was harshly criticized on the China Daily’s online forum for the treasonous act of ceding Chinese territory... traced to the Web site of the China Cartographic Press...the Chinese government quickly removed these Web pages.That would have been October, but maybe a spike in interest within China running up to the signing? They don't go toward saying the IP was or wasn't the first to render as 'Outer Manchuria', but at least point to the newness of the concept and internet usage. fiveby( zero) 20:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)