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February 7 Information
Did the Ottoman empire claim victory against the Allied powers in the Gallipoli Campaign?
There have been many debates and arguments between historians about this topic.I would like to know your claims and evidence to support them.In the Gallipoli campaign article on wikipedia the result of the campaign is shown as an "Ottoman Victory" though the Ottoman Empire's economy was severly damaged after the events of the campaign.--
Someguyonthewiki (
talk) 05:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Someguyonthewiki (
talk •
contribs)
14:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Probobly the right place for this discussion is
Talk:Gallipoli campaign, but it's the only example I can think of where a major
amphibious landing had established
beachheads but was unable to exploit them and subsequently withdrew. The Allied strategic aim of passing a naval fleet through the
Turkish Straits to bombard the Ottoman capital and open a supply route to Russia was never achieved. The victory might have been costly, the casualty figures are similar for both sides and as you say there were economic consequences, but the object of the Central Powers was achieved, while that of the Entente Allies was not.
Victory at Gallipoli, 1915: The German-Ottoman Alliance in the First World War by Klaus Wolf (2020) is a reference.
Alansplodge (
talk)
15:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, the Middle Eastern campaign was a loss for the Ottomans and a victory for the Allied Powers… and resulted in the Ottoman Empire losing about half of its pre-war territory. I certainly would not call that a “win”.
Blueboar (
talk)
15:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
If the Zimmerman telegraph was leaked almost immediately then it's possible some private communication supporting one way or the other came out by now, though it's also possible there's nothing.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
16:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
It's highly improbable that the Hagia Sophia would be a target; it had been the centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity for more than 1,000 years before it was a mosque and destroying it would have upset both the Russians (our allies) and the Greeks (who we hoped would be our allies).
Alansplodge (
talk)
17:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Quite apart from the Russians and the Greeks, millions of Muslim British Subjects (and indeed French) would also have been rather-more-than upset by any attempt to bomb Hagia Sophia or the
Blue Mosque (which I assume is what you mean by "the other one").
DuncanHill (
talk)
21:55, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The Sultan,
Mehmed V, in his role as
Caliph, had
declared jihad against the British Empire. Given the large Muslim population in India (which included the areas which are now Pakistan and Bangladesh), and the part played by the
British Indian Army and the
Imperial Service Troops, maintaining good relations with Muslims was something the British could not afford to ignore.
Peter Hopkirk's On Secret Service East of Constantinople : The Plot to Bring Down the British Empire is well worth reading.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:34, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
For any given large enough tolerance of "could", anything could happen. However, we don't discuss "could" at this venue. As it says in the instructions at the top of the page "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Instead, this desk is for asking questions about what "did" happen. Please keep the discussion going in that direction instead of veering off into speculation. --
Jayron3218:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
One might declare the outcome of the Gallipoli campaign a
Pyrrhic victory for the Ottoman side. The Ottoman losses were as high as they were also because the mortality rate was much higher than in the Allied forces and huge numbers succumbed to disease, presumably because of insufficient hygiene while the medical corps was less trained and inadequately equipped. The mortality among the wounded was also significantly higher. --
Lambiam16:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The Germans were happy to bomb Coventry and destroy the cathedral. It was only through luck that St Paul's Cathedral survived. When the Bulgarians said they were going to move into Constantinople the Turks said they would fire Santa Sabedoria before leaving, so Bulgaria didn't bother.
2A00:23C3:FB80:7C00:C495:3CE7:3180:2449 (
talk)
13:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Off the top of my head, and with no warranties or guarantees either express or implicit, either Darling Lili or Soft Beds, Hard Battles. I've only seen each once, and can't say they had much impact on me, but they both sprang to mind when I read the question. If I had to put money on it, then I'd go for Darling Lili. If not them, then 'Allo, 'Allo! is very much the sort of thing that would have used a joke like that.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a
transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
February 7 Information
Did the Ottoman empire claim victory against the Allied powers in the Gallipoli Campaign?
There have been many debates and arguments between historians about this topic.I would like to know your claims and evidence to support them.In the Gallipoli campaign article on wikipedia the result of the campaign is shown as an "Ottoman Victory" though the Ottoman Empire's economy was severly damaged after the events of the campaign.--
Someguyonthewiki (
talk) 05:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Someguyonthewiki (
talk •
contribs)
14:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Probobly the right place for this discussion is
Talk:Gallipoli campaign, but it's the only example I can think of where a major
amphibious landing had established
beachheads but was unable to exploit them and subsequently withdrew. The Allied strategic aim of passing a naval fleet through the
Turkish Straits to bombard the Ottoman capital and open a supply route to Russia was never achieved. The victory might have been costly, the casualty figures are similar for both sides and as you say there were economic consequences, but the object of the Central Powers was achieved, while that of the Entente Allies was not.
Victory at Gallipoli, 1915: The German-Ottoman Alliance in the First World War by Klaus Wolf (2020) is a reference.
Alansplodge (
talk)
15:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, the Middle Eastern campaign was a loss for the Ottomans and a victory for the Allied Powers… and resulted in the Ottoman Empire losing about half of its pre-war territory. I certainly would not call that a “win”.
Blueboar (
talk)
15:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
If the Zimmerman telegraph was leaked almost immediately then it's possible some private communication supporting one way or the other came out by now, though it's also possible there's nothing.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
16:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
It's highly improbable that the Hagia Sophia would be a target; it had been the centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity for more than 1,000 years before it was a mosque and destroying it would have upset both the Russians (our allies) and the Greeks (who we hoped would be our allies).
Alansplodge (
talk)
17:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Quite apart from the Russians and the Greeks, millions of Muslim British Subjects (and indeed French) would also have been rather-more-than upset by any attempt to bomb Hagia Sophia or the
Blue Mosque (which I assume is what you mean by "the other one").
DuncanHill (
talk)
21:55, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The Sultan,
Mehmed V, in his role as
Caliph, had
declared jihad against the British Empire. Given the large Muslim population in India (which included the areas which are now Pakistan and Bangladesh), and the part played by the
British Indian Army and the
Imperial Service Troops, maintaining good relations with Muslims was something the British could not afford to ignore.
Peter Hopkirk's On Secret Service East of Constantinople : The Plot to Bring Down the British Empire is well worth reading.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:34, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
For any given large enough tolerance of "could", anything could happen. However, we don't discuss "could" at this venue. As it says in the instructions at the top of the page "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Instead, this desk is for asking questions about what "did" happen. Please keep the discussion going in that direction instead of veering off into speculation. --
Jayron3218:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
One might declare the outcome of the Gallipoli campaign a
Pyrrhic victory for the Ottoman side. The Ottoman losses were as high as they were also because the mortality rate was much higher than in the Allied forces and huge numbers succumbed to disease, presumably because of insufficient hygiene while the medical corps was less trained and inadequately equipped. The mortality among the wounded was also significantly higher. --
Lambiam16:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The Germans were happy to bomb Coventry and destroy the cathedral. It was only through luck that St Paul's Cathedral survived. When the Bulgarians said they were going to move into Constantinople the Turks said they would fire Santa Sabedoria before leaving, so Bulgaria didn't bother.
2A00:23C3:FB80:7C00:C495:3CE7:3180:2449 (
talk)
13:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Off the top of my head, and with no warranties or guarantees either express or implicit, either Darling Lili or Soft Beds, Hard Battles. I've only seen each once, and can't say they had much impact on me, but they both sprang to mind when I read the question. If I had to put money on it, then I'd go for Darling Lili. If not them, then 'Allo, 'Allo! is very much the sort of thing that would have used a joke like that.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)reply