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How did the British aristocracy (peers and their families) compared to continental nobility (either the reigning dukes and princes or the mediatized nobility with no power)? For example, would a member of the Howard or Berkeley family whose lines stretches back 900 years and whose family heads have have titles of earls and dukes for hundreds of years be considered of equal rank to a non-reigning member of the noble family of County of Neipperg post German mediatisation. 128.193.154.158 ( talk) 16:12, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't know about Victorian Britain, but in the continent the mediatized German nobility (such as the Neipperg) were considered equal to sovereigns. The British dukes had no such status. If a king married a Countess of Neipperg, the marriage was considered equal and their offspring would inherit the throne. If a king married a British countess or a Princess of Bagration (a member of the royal house that can be traced to the late antiquity, and kings from times immemorial), the marriage was considered morganatic and their offspring would be excluded from succession. See Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia and Catherine Dolgorukova (a patrilineal descendent of Rurik through Yaroslav the Wise) for some examples. As a result of such arrangements, almost all European royalty was ethnically German by 1914. Ghirla -трёп- 11:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
To return to the original question: "How did the British aristocracy (peers and their families) compare to continental nobility (either the reigning dukes and princes, or the mediatized nobility with no power)?" My immediate thought was, along with C. E. M. Joad, "it depends on what you mean by power." In my draft article (will I ever finish it?) Draft:Knights for the body, I have been attempting (among other issues) to define/discover when the baronial basis of English aristocracy—dating back to medieval manorial courts etc.,—relinquished its actual justicial power in the shires, and deferred to an increasingly centralised system where the monarch and his/her central courts came to be seen as the final arbiter of justice in the realm. Who was a knight? And who could make a knight? It's a huge and unwieldy topic, but (I think) by around the time of Henry VIII and certainly James I (r. 1603-1625) the influence/ability of individual members of the aristocracy to dispense arbitrary justice in their own lands was waning fast; and by the time of English Civil Wars it had almost disappeared. It was only with Charles I (r. 1625-1649) that the monarchy came to provide a standing army at its own expense; and the final extinction of English/British feudal power came with the Tenures Abolition Act 1660 under Charles II (r. 1660-1685).
So, apart from their right to a seat in the House of Lords (and thus a say in making the laws of the country), the English (perhaps less the Scots and Irish) aristocracy had effectively relinquished its power by the middle of the 17th century. (This is a hot topic for professional historians, obviously.) Their place in dispensing power (partly as e.g. circuit judges and especially local magistrates, Justices of the peace) was increasingly taken by the 'lesser nobility', the descendants of the Esquires and Knights of the Body of the royal household/royal affinity, the landed gentry, the ' Squirearchy'.
In contrast, I suspect, the absolute (or at least relative) power of the rulers (and their less powerful relatives - cf. the Almanach de Gotha) of the German states continued until at least the mediatisation c. 1800 described above; the revolutions of 1848 began the slow process of democratization; and it wasn't until the unification of the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire after 1870 as modern Germany that its aristocracy underwent significant change. I would go so far as to say that it wasn't until the end of the First World War and the collapse of the Russian, Austrian and German empires that the aristocracies of Britain and Germany found themselves on an equally dispossessed footing. MinorProphet ( talk) 05:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
In the book Fifty Caricatures by Max Beerbohm (William Heinemann, London, 1913) is one intituled "Mr Lloyd George and his Guardians". You can see a copy here. I recognise Rufus Isaacs reading an order paper to Lloyd George's left, but cannot place the other chap. Can anyone help identify him? Thank you, DuncanHill ( talk) 18:35, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Humanities desk | ||
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< February 2 | << Jan | February | Mar >> | February 4 > |
Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives |
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The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
How did the British aristocracy (peers and their families) compared to continental nobility (either the reigning dukes and princes or the mediatized nobility with no power)? For example, would a member of the Howard or Berkeley family whose lines stretches back 900 years and whose family heads have have titles of earls and dukes for hundreds of years be considered of equal rank to a non-reigning member of the noble family of County of Neipperg post German mediatisation. 128.193.154.158 ( talk) 16:12, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't know about Victorian Britain, but in the continent the mediatized German nobility (such as the Neipperg) were considered equal to sovereigns. The British dukes had no such status. If a king married a Countess of Neipperg, the marriage was considered equal and their offspring would inherit the throne. If a king married a British countess or a Princess of Bagration (a member of the royal house that can be traced to the late antiquity, and kings from times immemorial), the marriage was considered morganatic and their offspring would be excluded from succession. See Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia and Catherine Dolgorukova (a patrilineal descendent of Rurik through Yaroslav the Wise) for some examples. As a result of such arrangements, almost all European royalty was ethnically German by 1914. Ghirla -трёп- 11:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
To return to the original question: "How did the British aristocracy (peers and their families) compare to continental nobility (either the reigning dukes and princes, or the mediatized nobility with no power)?" My immediate thought was, along with C. E. M. Joad, "it depends on what you mean by power." In my draft article (will I ever finish it?) Draft:Knights for the body, I have been attempting (among other issues) to define/discover when the baronial basis of English aristocracy—dating back to medieval manorial courts etc.,—relinquished its actual justicial power in the shires, and deferred to an increasingly centralised system where the monarch and his/her central courts came to be seen as the final arbiter of justice in the realm. Who was a knight? And who could make a knight? It's a huge and unwieldy topic, but (I think) by around the time of Henry VIII and certainly James I (r. 1603-1625) the influence/ability of individual members of the aristocracy to dispense arbitrary justice in their own lands was waning fast; and by the time of English Civil Wars it had almost disappeared. It was only with Charles I (r. 1625-1649) that the monarchy came to provide a standing army at its own expense; and the final extinction of English/British feudal power came with the Tenures Abolition Act 1660 under Charles II (r. 1660-1685).
So, apart from their right to a seat in the House of Lords (and thus a say in making the laws of the country), the English (perhaps less the Scots and Irish) aristocracy had effectively relinquished its power by the middle of the 17th century. (This is a hot topic for professional historians, obviously.) Their place in dispensing power (partly as e.g. circuit judges and especially local magistrates, Justices of the peace) was increasingly taken by the 'lesser nobility', the descendants of the Esquires and Knights of the Body of the royal household/royal affinity, the landed gentry, the ' Squirearchy'.
In contrast, I suspect, the absolute (or at least relative) power of the rulers (and their less powerful relatives - cf. the Almanach de Gotha) of the German states continued until at least the mediatisation c. 1800 described above; the revolutions of 1848 began the slow process of democratization; and it wasn't until the unification of the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire after 1870 as modern Germany that its aristocracy underwent significant change. I would go so far as to say that it wasn't until the end of the First World War and the collapse of the Russian, Austrian and German empires that the aristocracies of Britain and Germany found themselves on an equally dispossessed footing. MinorProphet ( talk) 05:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
In the book Fifty Caricatures by Max Beerbohm (William Heinemann, London, 1913) is one intituled "Mr Lloyd George and his Guardians". You can see a copy here. I recognise Rufus Isaacs reading an order paper to Lloyd George's left, but cannot place the other chap. Can anyone help identify him? Thank you, DuncanHill ( talk) 18:35, 3 February 2022 (UTC)