The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
It is a picture, taken by me, of an advertising sign and its surround, cropped (which is why Author is Picasa), taken from a public place (i.e. the road) so quite legal. It is not an exact copy of the sign, nor a work of art, so I dont see why its is a problem. There is no suggestion that public signs are copyright and its only a picture. From what little I understand FoP does not apply to the UK. Also this an advertising board showing an entrance to the site, not an architectural structure. Unless stated otherwise pictures taken in public places are allowed. I did send an email as requested and thought this was clear now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
As a new user, I find this very frustrating. This is in Madagascar not UK, but also note that Wikipedia states "In general under the law of the United Kingdom one cannot prevent photography of private property from a public place" [1]. Otherwise anything designed can be classed as art (clothing, posters, cars, statues, buildings, machines, headstones ... even a dead cow if someone calls it art!) would be invalid. If there was a sign saying no photographs or copyright than that may be different. Signs appear outside many buildings and appear here, on TV, and shown in Google's street-view! Unless there has been a test case the law, it is unproven but I think its highly unlikely it is an infringement, especially a UK post of a holiday picture from Madagascar.
Personally identifiable information (PII) and photographs of people is another issue [2]. If you are going to have rules as to what should and shouldn't be photographed, it should be clearly stated under terms and conditions. You cannot expect each contributor to understand these complex issues. Even what I can find in Wikipedia is unclear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I can find no reference to pictures of objects taken in Madagascar being forbidden, but if true then I must accept this picture is probably not allowed. Our tour company and guide never advised us not to take photos, rather just the opposite. We had photo stops at famous landmarks, sites and buildings. The only restriction was not to take photos inside the rooms of the Kings palace. No photos of any object anywhere seems a very harsh and unbelievable rule, so do you have anything to support this. I am trying to support the efforts of the Lemurs park! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The rule states: "an image of a work of architecture, a work of fine art ...". This is not a work of "fine art", not signed or attributed to an artist. Nor is it a public exhibition. It's prime purpose is a sign to a park entrance, partly obscured and distorted. It think your stance is extreme and unreasonable. If taken literally, then many pictures of sites from Madagascar, France, Italy and many other countries would also have to be removed from Wikipedia. The rule is aimed at art, not everyday objects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 08:28, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
As I said; I feel this is an extreme view, not taken by TripAdvisor, Flickr, and not in the interests of Wikipedia, press and information freedoms, and a disservice to the park itself (for which I am trying to create a page). This is a further erosion of what is the west should be public domain [3]. There can be no copyright claim if no artist is identified. I am not even sure if Wikipedia or myself would be liable, at the server is in the US, and no US or UK laws are being infringed. Also, "exhibited" must have a threshold greater than simply being outside an entrance. The image of the sign is already in the public domain as it appears on other websites. People who share their holiday photos (on the WEB) should not be criminalized, I am not expecting to be extradited to Madagascar. It is simply a sign, albeit nicely made. I feel further discussion on FoP and this being fine art is pointless, so perhaps you can suggest how I can move on. Is an alternate "fair use" license acceptable? Would a lower resolution be acceptable? Should I edit out the lemur? Should I credit Lemurs' Park (artist unknown)? What can I do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
We agree art exhibited in public (as well as private) places is protected. It is the interpretation of what is art, what constitutes a copy, whether something that can be copyrighted is therefore copyrighted, the need for a ruling FoP, and what is an exhibit I disagree with. A 2D photo of a 3D object is not a copy (whereas the copy of a chair was). Exhibit has a different meaning to display, and is normally associated with art. An artist could answer how many exhibits they have, but how may exhibits do you have! It is a deliberate act to show their work, not simply something being seen. Not every object is copyrighted art, although anyone can claim anything is art. I would suggest it is for the artist to make a claim that their work is art. We disagree on where to draw the line and unless there is a court ruling on a test case in Madagascar, we will never know. I dont believe any court would ever make the interpenetration you are (for this photo), especially as the intended use is non-profit, to help Lemurs' Park and to educate. Nor would a ban on all photographs of "objects" be justified. FoP is not a law that enables photography. FoP guidance for a country is to clarify the law, so FoP is irrelevant here. Laws prohibit, not enable! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by RHaworth ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by TLSuda ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
It is a picture, taken by me, of an advertising sign and its surround, cropped (which is why Author is Picasa), taken from a public place (i.e. the road) so quite legal. It is not an exact copy of the sign, nor a work of art, so I dont see why its is a problem. There is no suggestion that public signs are copyright and its only a picture. From what little I understand FoP does not apply to the UK. Also this an advertising board showing an entrance to the site, not an architectural structure. Unless stated otherwise pictures taken in public places are allowed. I did send an email as requested and thought this was clear now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
As a new user, I find this very frustrating. This is in Madagascar not UK, but also note that Wikipedia states "In general under the law of the United Kingdom one cannot prevent photography of private property from a public place" [1]. Otherwise anything designed can be classed as art (clothing, posters, cars, statues, buildings, machines, headstones ... even a dead cow if someone calls it art!) would be invalid. If there was a sign saying no photographs or copyright than that may be different. Signs appear outside many buildings and appear here, on TV, and shown in Google's street-view! Unless there has been a test case the law, it is unproven but I think its highly unlikely it is an infringement, especially a UK post of a holiday picture from Madagascar.
Personally identifiable information (PII) and photographs of people is another issue [2]. If you are going to have rules as to what should and shouldn't be photographed, it should be clearly stated under terms and conditions. You cannot expect each contributor to understand these complex issues. Even what I can find in Wikipedia is unclear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I can find no reference to pictures of objects taken in Madagascar being forbidden, but if true then I must accept this picture is probably not allowed. Our tour company and guide never advised us not to take photos, rather just the opposite. We had photo stops at famous landmarks, sites and buildings. The only restriction was not to take photos inside the rooms of the Kings palace. No photos of any object anywhere seems a very harsh and unbelievable rule, so do you have anything to support this. I am trying to support the efforts of the Lemurs park! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The rule states: "an image of a work of architecture, a work of fine art ...". This is not a work of "fine art", not signed or attributed to an artist. Nor is it a public exhibition. It's prime purpose is a sign to a park entrance, partly obscured and distorted. It think your stance is extreme and unreasonable. If taken literally, then many pictures of sites from Madagascar, France, Italy and many other countries would also have to be removed from Wikipedia. The rule is aimed at art, not everyday objects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 08:28, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
As I said; I feel this is an extreme view, not taken by TripAdvisor, Flickr, and not in the interests of Wikipedia, press and information freedoms, and a disservice to the park itself (for which I am trying to create a page). This is a further erosion of what is the west should be public domain [3]. There can be no copyright claim if no artist is identified. I am not even sure if Wikipedia or myself would be liable, at the server is in the US, and no US or UK laws are being infringed. Also, "exhibited" must have a threshold greater than simply being outside an entrance. The image of the sign is already in the public domain as it appears on other websites. People who share their holiday photos (on the WEB) should not be criminalized, I am not expecting to be extradited to Madagascar. It is simply a sign, albeit nicely made. I feel further discussion on FoP and this being fine art is pointless, so perhaps you can suggest how I can move on. Is an alternate "fair use" license acceptable? Would a lower resolution be acceptable? Should I edit out the lemur? Should I credit Lemurs' Park (artist unknown)? What can I do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
We agree art exhibited in public (as well as private) places is protected. It is the interpretation of what is art, what constitutes a copy, whether something that can be copyrighted is therefore copyrighted, the need for a ruling FoP, and what is an exhibit I disagree with. A 2D photo of a 3D object is not a copy (whereas the copy of a chair was). Exhibit has a different meaning to display, and is normally associated with art. An artist could answer how many exhibits they have, but how may exhibits do you have! It is a deliberate act to show their work, not simply something being seen. Not every object is copyrighted art, although anyone can claim anything is art. I would suggest it is for the artist to make a claim that their work is art. We disagree on where to draw the line and unless there is a court ruling on a test case in Madagascar, we will never know. I dont believe any court would ever make the interpenetration you are (for this photo), especially as the intended use is non-profit, to help Lemurs' Park and to educate. Nor would a ban on all photographs of "objects" be justified. FoP is not a law that enables photography. FoP guidance for a country is to clarify the law, so FoP is irrelevant here. Laws prohibit, not enable! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SurreyJohn ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by RHaworth ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)