This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because:
This article has been a GA for some time and needs to progress to FA.
There is also a dispute between the two most-contributory editors to the article (one much more so than the other, but that shouldn't be a major factor) on the overall shape and flow of the article. The original GA form of the article had bibliographic and filmographic details interspersed throughout the prose. This was changed into a version with separate filmography and bibliography sections, with the material in the main prose considerably summarized. An even more summarized variant with these sections also has been produced, but the article is presently back to an integrated version with no film/biblio sections (and considerably more material than the original). A fifth option (no diff to show) would be to keep most of the material in the prose, but pared down, and have very summary bullet-pointed bibliography and filmography sections (this would permit moving minor details about these things to those sections, and even removing questionably notable talk shows and stuff from the main prose and only mentioning them in those sections). Note: A great number of minor improvement edits are not accounted for in the above edit history links; they are provided just as an easy way to get to the four versions for structural comparison purposes. I.e. the fact that the later versions are better than the earlier ones in several unrelated respects shouldn't affect what article structure to use.
One of the two major contributors also feels that the lead is overly long (as was noted in the original pre-GA peer review, when the lead was even longer) and not focused enough on what makes Wanderone notable, while the other major editor disagrees.
Input from editors experienced at peer review and FA work, and not involved in the editing of the article, would probably be quite valuable here.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the semi-automated peer review (SAPR) because it should not be included here for the following reasons: 1) when the SAPR is included here, this peer review request does not show up at WP:PR for others to see it and make comments; 2) this saves space at WP:PR; and 3) this follows the directions above, i.e. "Please do not ... paste in semi-automated peer reviews below: link to them instead." Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
As requested, here are some suggestions for improvement. If you want more comments, please ask here. This looks much better than when I reviewed it before, but still needs some work for FA.
Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
My first reaction to the opening sentence is that it is loaded. Thus, I believe that the sentence needs a minor editing change in order for a reader to read on without stumbling. For example,
"Rudolf Walter Wanderone, Jr. (19 January 1913 – 15 January 1996; originally spelled Wanderon[1][2] and best known as "Minnesota Fats"), was an American professional pocket billiards (pool) player and entertainer."
The addition of the word and helps to keep an uninterrupted flow of thought going. Additionally, moving the ) means that the entire expression originally spelled...'Fats becomes one long parenthetical expression. Which it is. Lastly, I have trouble with the dangling phrase at the end of the sentence and entertainer. It reads (and sounds) as if it were just stuck on there. I would prefer that that phrase be "worked in" somewhere else.
For excellent opening sentences, read the opening sentences of Ian Fleming. Not a single word (or punctuation mark) was ever out of place. Oh...I would also leave out the word "(pool)". It's real not necessary. Thus, I would write the opening sentence as this:
Rudolf Walter Wanderone, Jr. (19 January 1913—15 January 1996; originally spelled Wanderon
and best known as "Minnesota Fats"), was an American professional pocket billiards player.
Hag2 ( talk) 19:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
As "Fats", in spite of the fact that he never won a major pool tournament, he was perhaps the most publicly recognized pool player in the United States.
I am not too sure that you want me to continue. As you can see, I am having a difficult time with the prose. If you want, I will enter the article and edit it according to my skills — until it breaks down completely—and you can revert whatever I do if you find my punctuation and grammar skills unworthy. Hag2 ( talk) 20:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Comments from Ealdgyth ( talk · contribs)
Please don't archive this yet; redrafting and reviewing are still in-progress. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
21:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC) 11:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because:
This article has been a GA for some time and needs to progress to FA.
There is also a dispute between the two most-contributory editors to the article (one much more so than the other, but that shouldn't be a major factor) on the overall shape and flow of the article. The original GA form of the article had bibliographic and filmographic details interspersed throughout the prose. This was changed into a version with separate filmography and bibliography sections, with the material in the main prose considerably summarized. An even more summarized variant with these sections also has been produced, but the article is presently back to an integrated version with no film/biblio sections (and considerably more material than the original). A fifth option (no diff to show) would be to keep most of the material in the prose, but pared down, and have very summary bullet-pointed bibliography and filmography sections (this would permit moving minor details about these things to those sections, and even removing questionably notable talk shows and stuff from the main prose and only mentioning them in those sections). Note: A great number of minor improvement edits are not accounted for in the above edit history links; they are provided just as an easy way to get to the four versions for structural comparison purposes. I.e. the fact that the later versions are better than the earlier ones in several unrelated respects shouldn't affect what article structure to use.
One of the two major contributors also feels that the lead is overly long (as was noted in the original pre-GA peer review, when the lead was even longer) and not focused enough on what makes Wanderone notable, while the other major editor disagrees.
Input from editors experienced at peer review and FA work, and not involved in the editing of the article, would probably be quite valuable here.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the semi-automated peer review (SAPR) because it should not be included here for the following reasons: 1) when the SAPR is included here, this peer review request does not show up at WP:PR for others to see it and make comments; 2) this saves space at WP:PR; and 3) this follows the directions above, i.e. "Please do not ... paste in semi-automated peer reviews below: link to them instead." Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
As requested, here are some suggestions for improvement. If you want more comments, please ask here. This looks much better than when I reviewed it before, but still needs some work for FA.
Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
My first reaction to the opening sentence is that it is loaded. Thus, I believe that the sentence needs a minor editing change in order for a reader to read on without stumbling. For example,
"Rudolf Walter Wanderone, Jr. (19 January 1913 – 15 January 1996; originally spelled Wanderon[1][2] and best known as "Minnesota Fats"), was an American professional pocket billiards (pool) player and entertainer."
The addition of the word and helps to keep an uninterrupted flow of thought going. Additionally, moving the ) means that the entire expression originally spelled...'Fats becomes one long parenthetical expression. Which it is. Lastly, I have trouble with the dangling phrase at the end of the sentence and entertainer. It reads (and sounds) as if it were just stuck on there. I would prefer that that phrase be "worked in" somewhere else.
For excellent opening sentences, read the opening sentences of Ian Fleming. Not a single word (or punctuation mark) was ever out of place. Oh...I would also leave out the word "(pool)". It's real not necessary. Thus, I would write the opening sentence as this:
Rudolf Walter Wanderone, Jr. (19 January 1913—15 January 1996; originally spelled Wanderon
and best known as "Minnesota Fats"), was an American professional pocket billiards player.
Hag2 ( talk) 19:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
As "Fats", in spite of the fact that he never won a major pool tournament, he was perhaps the most publicly recognized pool player in the United States.
I am not too sure that you want me to continue. As you can see, I am having a difficult time with the prose. If you want, I will enter the article and edit it according to my skills — until it breaks down completely—and you can revert whatever I do if you find my punctuation and grammar skills unworthy. Hag2 ( talk) 20:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Comments from Ealdgyth ( talk · contribs)
Please don't archive this yet; redrafting and reviewing are still in-progress. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
21:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC) 11:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)