I think this article is in good shape, and is without equal amongst encyclopedia articles on logic, in terms of not avoiding tackling hard questions as to what the topic is about, comprehensiveness of coverage, and getting into living topics (the two main recent enclyclopedias of philosophy, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy each have many articles on topics in logic, but none on logic itself).
That said, there are some concerns with the article:
That said, I hope there isn't too much to be done here. I've done a fair amount of work on this, CSTAR has done as much, if not more, and the now departed Siroxo has done good work as well, and also many other contributors. CSTAR also did a review of this some months back that is discussed on the talk page. --- Charles Stewart 23:41, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
> I think this article ... is without equal amongst encyclopedia articles on logic
True enough. I can't agree it is very good. It starts out with a poor definition of the subject. I have set up an article Definitions of Logic giving divers definitions of 'Logic'. I think the Penguin definition ("the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference") is by far the best. It's certainly not just the 'study of arguments' (like pedagogy or rhetoric.
It's also very repetitive. The idea of ' logical form' which is central to most accounts of logic is touched upon all over the place, without being made clear or explicit.
A personal dislike is the mention of Indian, Chinese logic &c. If it had no material impact on the develop of the subject of the main article (as Aristotle did), why mention it except in a separate article. To be sure, the Arabic commentators were material, so include them. But then why omit the significant contribution that the Polish logicians made in the early 20C?
But the main fault is the arbitrary division of the subject. Why divide it (Section 2) into syllogistic, predicate logic (i.e. predicate calculus) – which is a historical division, moreover one which fails to mention what the division really consists of, then modal logic, which is not a historical division, then "deduction and reasoning" bloody hell what is that doing. Then mathematical logic and philosophical logic, which is a cultural and methodological division, then logic and computation which is a clear afterthought.
Why not organise it according to the true division of the subject, referencing the relevant historical distinctions as we go along. E.g.
1. What 'logical form' is - I have some nice definitions in my collection of logic textbooks. How traditional logic viewed if (all/some A is/isn't B), how the predicate calculus views it (there is/isn't some x such that it is/isn't the case that Fx &c). How the idea of the variable or schema is central to formalisation ("The introduction of variables into logic is one of Aristotle's greatest inventions" Lukasiewicz).
2. Truth and falsity – law of contradiction, excluded middle &c
3. Semantics. The intension and extension of terms. Medieval semantics (supposition theory), early modern semantics (propositions connect ideas), modern semantics (model theory).
4. Inference. Medieval theories of inference, consequence &c, early modern and 19c psychologistic theories, modern views. Strict versus material implication, ex falso quodlibet &c
5. Other bits and pieces. Recent developments. Philosophy of language. Computation.
Sorry this is very hurried, I wrote this in 10 minutes as a sketch. I'm happy to make a substantial contribution here.
Dbuckner 21:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I've not had much time for WP this past week, nor will I this week, and much of that time has been taken up with the Carl Hewitt case. --- Charles Stewart 16:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
---
Charles - Your points are good ones. But a more detailed look at the article confirms my initial thoughts that the article needs substantial revision. The basic division is wrong (like dividing Americans into Democrats and mid-Westerners), and there are flaws and factual errors, some of them material, in almost every sentence.
For example, the opening section contains no less than five different definitions of the term 'logic'!
• the study of arguments • the account of valid and fallacious inference • allowing one to distinguish good from bad arguments • the investigation and classification of the structure of arguments • the study of fallacies and paradoxes
That is a little too much. Why not something like:
The next paragraph should list examples of the topics. Why does the current article gives as instances 'probably correct reasoning' and 'arguments involving causality'? What is the former? In any case, the list should be a bit longer, and any subject mentioned should get a mention in the body of the article. 'Probably correct reasoning' is mentioned nowhere else. I Googled it and only got 15 hits, the first of which was from the article itself. Thus Google thinks 'Probably correct reasoning' is a topic of major academic importance because of the importance that Google (sometimes wrongly) attaches to things in WP.
I will work on a draft. Is it possible to create a temporary draft page that we could discuss carefully? Perhaps I will put something on my user page. Or does that go against the WP philosophy? My professional work involves the drafting of policy documents, which means the idea of teams of people (each of whom has been carefully selected by examination and interview) working on drafts, discussing each points in detail, checking all points have been discussed, the concept of document control been handed around, the appointment of a co-ordinating editor, the use of a template to which all such documents must conform, the concept of a final draft being signed off by committee then 'locked down' into a 'production' version. The idea of different unrelated unselected people having random control over the production document still seems pretty strange! It does work, but sometimes not so well as others.
On the subject of the Chinese bits, I'm far from persuaded it has anything to do with the development of logic. Even if Boole were influenced, his influence was not direct (he tried to put Aristotle into symbolic form, and did not have the insights of later logicians such as Brentano, Frege, Peirce, Venn &c that led to the important developments. Boole's influence on logic is comparable to John Logie Baird's influence on television (i.e. the idea was great, the implementation was quickly discarded
Also, some logicians would say that genuine 'logic' is restricted to the systematic study of inference forms, which necessarily involves the use of variables or schemata to classify arguments. Aristotle appears to have invented this. I have looked at material on Hindu logic, and the idea of the variable does not seem to feature.
Best wishes --- Dean
---
I agree with most of the points you make. I wouldn't put too much effort into writing a whole, rival logic article right now, rather put together a skeleton of the article so that I can get a clearer sense to what you propose. Use a subpage in your userpsace for the draft (eg. User:Renamed user 4/logic) so that people don't put requests in the middle of your draft, and it has its own talk page. Boole was a key influence on the whole C19 algebraic logic tradition, even if most of the people in this tradition rejected exactly his formulation. I'd say his influence on Pierce is pretty strong. --- Charles Stewart 21:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I see there are still goings on with the Cantor article. Anyway, there is a draft of an article on my talk (not user) page. The idea would be to have a better definition then a section on division, and then scrap the existing section on "formal" logic in favour of something that actually defines the concept of "formal". If you read carefully the current section, you see it doesn't do that, and it is repetitive. Then a short section on semantics. I don't see why this can't be done. Dean
"The formally sophisticated treatment of modern logic apparently descends from the Greek tradition, although it is suggested that the pioneers of Boolean logic were likely aware of Indian logic (Ganeri 2001) but comes not wholly through Europe, but instead comes from the transmission of Aristotelian logic and commentary upon it by Islamic philosophers to Medieval logicians. "
And what does this sentence mean. Is it really a sentence. DB
I have added a section on semantics in the draft. There is more on modern logic than in the previous draft, thanks to the good work of Dr. Stewart.
I propose to add a section on "controversies in logic" once I have worked through a few more books. I also need to add a reference section. Charles, do you have any references for the work you contributed please.
Dbuckner 16:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)}
I think this article is in good shape, and is without equal amongst encyclopedia articles on logic, in terms of not avoiding tackling hard questions as to what the topic is about, comprehensiveness of coverage, and getting into living topics (the two main recent enclyclopedias of philosophy, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy each have many articles on topics in logic, but none on logic itself).
That said, there are some concerns with the article:
That said, I hope there isn't too much to be done here. I've done a fair amount of work on this, CSTAR has done as much, if not more, and the now departed Siroxo has done good work as well, and also many other contributors. CSTAR also did a review of this some months back that is discussed on the talk page. --- Charles Stewart 23:41, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
> I think this article ... is without equal amongst encyclopedia articles on logic
True enough. I can't agree it is very good. It starts out with a poor definition of the subject. I have set up an article Definitions of Logic giving divers definitions of 'Logic'. I think the Penguin definition ("the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference") is by far the best. It's certainly not just the 'study of arguments' (like pedagogy or rhetoric.
It's also very repetitive. The idea of ' logical form' which is central to most accounts of logic is touched upon all over the place, without being made clear or explicit.
A personal dislike is the mention of Indian, Chinese logic &c. If it had no material impact on the develop of the subject of the main article (as Aristotle did), why mention it except in a separate article. To be sure, the Arabic commentators were material, so include them. But then why omit the significant contribution that the Polish logicians made in the early 20C?
But the main fault is the arbitrary division of the subject. Why divide it (Section 2) into syllogistic, predicate logic (i.e. predicate calculus) – which is a historical division, moreover one which fails to mention what the division really consists of, then modal logic, which is not a historical division, then "deduction and reasoning" bloody hell what is that doing. Then mathematical logic and philosophical logic, which is a cultural and methodological division, then logic and computation which is a clear afterthought.
Why not organise it according to the true division of the subject, referencing the relevant historical distinctions as we go along. E.g.
1. What 'logical form' is - I have some nice definitions in my collection of logic textbooks. How traditional logic viewed if (all/some A is/isn't B), how the predicate calculus views it (there is/isn't some x such that it is/isn't the case that Fx &c). How the idea of the variable or schema is central to formalisation ("The introduction of variables into logic is one of Aristotle's greatest inventions" Lukasiewicz).
2. Truth and falsity – law of contradiction, excluded middle &c
3. Semantics. The intension and extension of terms. Medieval semantics (supposition theory), early modern semantics (propositions connect ideas), modern semantics (model theory).
4. Inference. Medieval theories of inference, consequence &c, early modern and 19c psychologistic theories, modern views. Strict versus material implication, ex falso quodlibet &c
5. Other bits and pieces. Recent developments. Philosophy of language. Computation.
Sorry this is very hurried, I wrote this in 10 minutes as a sketch. I'm happy to make a substantial contribution here.
Dbuckner 21:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I've not had much time for WP this past week, nor will I this week, and much of that time has been taken up with the Carl Hewitt case. --- Charles Stewart 16:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
---
Charles - Your points are good ones. But a more detailed look at the article confirms my initial thoughts that the article needs substantial revision. The basic division is wrong (like dividing Americans into Democrats and mid-Westerners), and there are flaws and factual errors, some of them material, in almost every sentence.
For example, the opening section contains no less than five different definitions of the term 'logic'!
• the study of arguments • the account of valid and fallacious inference • allowing one to distinguish good from bad arguments • the investigation and classification of the structure of arguments • the study of fallacies and paradoxes
That is a little too much. Why not something like:
The next paragraph should list examples of the topics. Why does the current article gives as instances 'probably correct reasoning' and 'arguments involving causality'? What is the former? In any case, the list should be a bit longer, and any subject mentioned should get a mention in the body of the article. 'Probably correct reasoning' is mentioned nowhere else. I Googled it and only got 15 hits, the first of which was from the article itself. Thus Google thinks 'Probably correct reasoning' is a topic of major academic importance because of the importance that Google (sometimes wrongly) attaches to things in WP.
I will work on a draft. Is it possible to create a temporary draft page that we could discuss carefully? Perhaps I will put something on my user page. Or does that go against the WP philosophy? My professional work involves the drafting of policy documents, which means the idea of teams of people (each of whom has been carefully selected by examination and interview) working on drafts, discussing each points in detail, checking all points have been discussed, the concept of document control been handed around, the appointment of a co-ordinating editor, the use of a template to which all such documents must conform, the concept of a final draft being signed off by committee then 'locked down' into a 'production' version. The idea of different unrelated unselected people having random control over the production document still seems pretty strange! It does work, but sometimes not so well as others.
On the subject of the Chinese bits, I'm far from persuaded it has anything to do with the development of logic. Even if Boole were influenced, his influence was not direct (he tried to put Aristotle into symbolic form, and did not have the insights of later logicians such as Brentano, Frege, Peirce, Venn &c that led to the important developments. Boole's influence on logic is comparable to John Logie Baird's influence on television (i.e. the idea was great, the implementation was quickly discarded
Also, some logicians would say that genuine 'logic' is restricted to the systematic study of inference forms, which necessarily involves the use of variables or schemata to classify arguments. Aristotle appears to have invented this. I have looked at material on Hindu logic, and the idea of the variable does not seem to feature.
Best wishes --- Dean
---
I agree with most of the points you make. I wouldn't put too much effort into writing a whole, rival logic article right now, rather put together a skeleton of the article so that I can get a clearer sense to what you propose. Use a subpage in your userpsace for the draft (eg. User:Renamed user 4/logic) so that people don't put requests in the middle of your draft, and it has its own talk page. Boole was a key influence on the whole C19 algebraic logic tradition, even if most of the people in this tradition rejected exactly his formulation. I'd say his influence on Pierce is pretty strong. --- Charles Stewart 21:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I see there are still goings on with the Cantor article. Anyway, there is a draft of an article on my talk (not user) page. The idea would be to have a better definition then a section on division, and then scrap the existing section on "formal" logic in favour of something that actually defines the concept of "formal". If you read carefully the current section, you see it doesn't do that, and it is repetitive. Then a short section on semantics. I don't see why this can't be done. Dean
"The formally sophisticated treatment of modern logic apparently descends from the Greek tradition, although it is suggested that the pioneers of Boolean logic were likely aware of Indian logic (Ganeri 2001) but comes not wholly through Europe, but instead comes from the transmission of Aristotelian logic and commentary upon it by Islamic philosophers to Medieval logicians. "
And what does this sentence mean. Is it really a sentence. DB
I have added a section on semantics in the draft. There is more on modern logic than in the previous draft, thanks to the good work of Dr. Stewart.
I propose to add a section on "controversies in logic" once I have worked through a few more books. I also need to add a reference section. Charles, do you have any references for the work you contributed please.
Dbuckner 16:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)}