"only an outline of his business activities, family life and his place as an artist in Norwich is known." - just wondering if we need to write this? The purpose of the article is to exactly describe this. Or perhaps reword this, eg. "scarce details exist about his business activities"
"Nothing is known of Thirtle's early boyhood or education." > no need for 'early'. We know his education consisted of apprenticeships, so that sentence isn't completely true!
I am also not an art expert, but I will still review this. I am going to assess as if it was an FAC.
Lede
"are considered to be outstanding in the history of watercolour painting." I'm concerned that this doesn't meet the disinterested voice outlined in
WP:YESPOV. Is there another descriptor we can use besides outstanding? Can we describe in a half-sentence why they are considered outstanding?
"reduced his artistic output up to his death in 1839." If this reduction is throughout his whole life, then we cannot consider it a reduction. If the reduction happened at a certain point in his life (like in his older age) then that should be specified.
Sorry, my comment was not clear. Do we know the company that made the indigo pigment he used? Does it have a brand name? Do all indigo pigments fade like this?
Z1720 (
talk)
21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Z1720: Ah, I see. I'm not sure how to find out where John Thirtle obtained his pigments from, but I do know that natural indigo fades within a few years (the synthetic permanent form was invented in the 1850s).
Church's The Chemistry of Paints and Painting (1890) goes into some detail about the properties of indigo. The topic is also touched upon
here, I'll add something to the text.
Amitchell125 (
talk)
18:30, 1 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Sometimes art historians can determine the brands of materials someone used. It might be good to include information on the properties of the indigos used at this time, especially if you are making a big deal about how its fading has changed Thirtle's art.
Z1720 (
talk)
19:42, 1 April 2021 (UTC)reply
" and to great effect." Delete, we are starting to go into
WP:PROMO territory.
"In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve another apprenticeship, possibly under a Mr. Allwood,[6] again learning to make picture frames.[9]" I would rearrange this to be "In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve an apprenticeship to make picture frames, possibly under a Mr. Allwood." This helps reduce the number of words.
"print shop at 96, The Strand," Is this an address? The name of the print shop? Give more detail, please.
N Not done. This is correct British English, as The Strand is the street in London (linked in the article) and the shop was at No 96. I'm not sure how else it would be written.
Amitchell125 (
talk)
18:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I used to live in London, so I am familiar with this address structure. I found it very confusing when I was there, and still do today. Changes not needed.
Z1720 (
talk)
21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"after Cotman had moved to the capital in about 1798." Delete. This is off-topic and you already stated when Thirtle began their education here.
In am unable to click on the image in this section. Also, I do not think we include captions like "Click here for more detail" but please confirm with someone more knowledgeable than me before you make changes.
"Those of Thirtle's frames that have survived point to his fine craftmanship." I think this is
WP:PROMO and comments like this should state in the article who is giving this opinion, not just in the reference.
"At least one such framed painting, George Vincent's Trowse Meadows, near Norwich, an oil painting on canvas first exhibited in 1828, was copied by Thirtle, who produced the same scene as a watercolour." Too many commas. Can it be reworded?
"Paintings still in Thirtle's original frames can be dated as being before 1839, the year he died." Reword to "Paintings still in Thirtle's frames can be dated from before 1839, the year he died."
"This landscape painting seems to have been unusual, as many of his early works were portraits and paintings of other subjects, but by then he had begun to increase his output of landscapes, and to stand out as a master of the genre of watercolour painting." I have read this sentence a couple times, and I am very confused. Did Thirtle produce paintings before The Windmill? What date do you refer to in "but by then"?
"the Norwich Society of Artists, a group that also included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon." Change to "the Norwich Society of Artists, a which included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon."
"In the exhibition Thirtle showed five paintings out of the 71 exhibited by five artists: Crome, Ladbrooke, Hodgson, Dixon and Thirtle himself." I would change to "Thirtle exhibited five paintings as one of the five featured artists." I consider the names of the other artists off-topic.
"The art historian Derek Clifford compared John Crome with Thirtle, describing him as less able to" This phrasing makes it difficult to determine who "him" is. Reword.
"that their works were in the past sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle." Reword to "that their works were sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle."
Previous sentence is about Allthorpe-Guyton ... unclear subject ... He is yet to be regarded as an important artist in his own right and not just a member of the Norwich School of painters.
What happened here? Hemingway describes Thirtle as "an outstanding if variable" watercolour artist, whose best work is on a level with the English artists Peter De Wint and Joshua Cristall;[3]
What happened here? Nothing written by other than his Treatise, now in the Norwich Castle Museum.[5]
"only an outline of his business activities, family life and his place as an artist in Norwich is known." - just wondering if we need to write this? The purpose of the article is to exactly describe this. Or perhaps reword this, eg. "scarce details exist about his business activities"
"Nothing is known of Thirtle's early boyhood or education." > no need for 'early'. We know his education consisted of apprenticeships, so that sentence isn't completely true!
I am also not an art expert, but I will still review this. I am going to assess as if it was an FAC.
Lede
"are considered to be outstanding in the history of watercolour painting." I'm concerned that this doesn't meet the disinterested voice outlined in
WP:YESPOV. Is there another descriptor we can use besides outstanding? Can we describe in a half-sentence why they are considered outstanding?
"reduced his artistic output up to his death in 1839." If this reduction is throughout his whole life, then we cannot consider it a reduction. If the reduction happened at a certain point in his life (like in his older age) then that should be specified.
Sorry, my comment was not clear. Do we know the company that made the indigo pigment he used? Does it have a brand name? Do all indigo pigments fade like this?
Z1720 (
talk)
21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Z1720: Ah, I see. I'm not sure how to find out where John Thirtle obtained his pigments from, but I do know that natural indigo fades within a few years (the synthetic permanent form was invented in the 1850s).
Church's The Chemistry of Paints and Painting (1890) goes into some detail about the properties of indigo. The topic is also touched upon
here, I'll add something to the text.
Amitchell125 (
talk)
18:30, 1 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Sometimes art historians can determine the brands of materials someone used. It might be good to include information on the properties of the indigos used at this time, especially if you are making a big deal about how its fading has changed Thirtle's art.
Z1720 (
talk)
19:42, 1 April 2021 (UTC)reply
" and to great effect." Delete, we are starting to go into
WP:PROMO territory.
"In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve another apprenticeship, possibly under a Mr. Allwood,[6] again learning to make picture frames.[9]" I would rearrange this to be "In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve an apprenticeship to make picture frames, possibly under a Mr. Allwood." This helps reduce the number of words.
"print shop at 96, The Strand," Is this an address? The name of the print shop? Give more detail, please.
N Not done. This is correct British English, as The Strand is the street in London (linked in the article) and the shop was at No 96. I'm not sure how else it would be written.
Amitchell125 (
talk)
18:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I used to live in London, so I am familiar with this address structure. I found it very confusing when I was there, and still do today. Changes not needed.
Z1720 (
talk)
21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"after Cotman had moved to the capital in about 1798." Delete. This is off-topic and you already stated when Thirtle began their education here.
In am unable to click on the image in this section. Also, I do not think we include captions like "Click here for more detail" but please confirm with someone more knowledgeable than me before you make changes.
"Those of Thirtle's frames that have survived point to his fine craftmanship." I think this is
WP:PROMO and comments like this should state in the article who is giving this opinion, not just in the reference.
"At least one such framed painting, George Vincent's Trowse Meadows, near Norwich, an oil painting on canvas first exhibited in 1828, was copied by Thirtle, who produced the same scene as a watercolour." Too many commas. Can it be reworded?
"Paintings still in Thirtle's original frames can be dated as being before 1839, the year he died." Reword to "Paintings still in Thirtle's frames can be dated from before 1839, the year he died."
"This landscape painting seems to have been unusual, as many of his early works were portraits and paintings of other subjects, but by then he had begun to increase his output of landscapes, and to stand out as a master of the genre of watercolour painting." I have read this sentence a couple times, and I am very confused. Did Thirtle produce paintings before The Windmill? What date do you refer to in "but by then"?
"the Norwich Society of Artists, a group that also included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon." Change to "the Norwich Society of Artists, a which included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon."
"In the exhibition Thirtle showed five paintings out of the 71 exhibited by five artists: Crome, Ladbrooke, Hodgson, Dixon and Thirtle himself." I would change to "Thirtle exhibited five paintings as one of the five featured artists." I consider the names of the other artists off-topic.
"The art historian Derek Clifford compared John Crome with Thirtle, describing him as less able to" This phrasing makes it difficult to determine who "him" is. Reword.
"that their works were in the past sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle." Reword to "that their works were sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle."
Previous sentence is about Allthorpe-Guyton ... unclear subject ... He is yet to be regarded as an important artist in his own right and not just a member of the Norwich School of painters.
What happened here? Hemingway describes Thirtle as "an outstanding if variable" watercolour artist, whose best work is on a level with the English artists Peter De Wint and Joshua Cristall;[3]
What happened here? Nothing written by other than his Treatise, now in the Norwich Castle Museum.[5]