Hoping to give this the final push to FA status. Has already failed once mainly due to the poor prose so that is the main thing I want to address in this PR.
Buc (
talk)
20:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments from Woody
Just remembering something from when I recently went through the prose, all statements in "quotation marks" need to be explicitly cited, especially the early stuff on Souness etc. I think the three copyeditors have tightened up the specific grammar/spelling issues and have reduced redundancy. There is still a slight whiff of fanzine about it though.
Woody (
talk)
20:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Before the stint, he saw it as a valuable experience that would progress him as a player. What has that got to do with his career?
It gave him experience.
It is the tone that isn't good Buc.
Reworded
Milner later confirmed that he was happy about his future at the club and with the new manager. Good for him, not really telling us much though. As I said earlier, I think it still has fanzine issues and it isn't very encyclopedic in its current form.
Tell you about how he felt at the time.
Style of play
Milner believes that he is a hard worker, confident and relaxed,[1] and he expresses a willingness to play as much as possible. Not very encyclopedic, or neccessary. It sounds like it is coming from his agent.
It's hard to find stuff about his Style of play. This is the best I can do.
Milner is described on his official site as "a good reader of the game". : So what?
To be honest, much of the style of play section can be rewriten or wiped.
It's hard to find stuff about his Style of play. This is the best I can do.
If it ain't good, chop it. Just write from a neutral point of view. These are symptoms of a problem Buc. The whole section needs rewording. The information is ok, it just needs to have a neutral tone. I tried to show you, with
this diff, the direction it needs to go. Whether you act on it is your prerogative Buc...
Woody (
talk)
17:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)reply
The information is good, the tone isn't. It needs rewording and the fanzine type prose needs to be eliminated. Rewording will not affect its comprehensiveness.
See this is the circular problem that keeps comming up. No matter what I or anyone else does, no matter how many c/e I ask for, no matter how much feedback or advice I ask for, I keep just getting told the prose isn't good enough. There is really nothing more I personally can do about this, clearly I can't see what others can.
Buc (
talk)
10:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)reply
References
Statements in quotation marks need specific references. Particularly the Souness stuff.
By specific, I mean after the quotes as in Souness said "Milner was bad"[2] instead of Souness said that "Milner was bad" in a diatribe about playing standards at the northern Club, which was not well received by critics.[3][4]
It wasn't a quote on purpose, it was an example. Where you have quotation marks, especially on the section about a team of Milners, you need to have quote-specific citations.
Woody (
talk)
22:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)reply
I still don't understand the need for the first couple of sentences at the start of the career section. It seems only to be an overview of his career and repeated info from the lead. Though maybe I'm wrong - anyone else with any thoughts on this?
Shouldn't his career statistics be the other way round, with the most recent season at the bottom. It is how timelines should be, and how infoboxes appear.
Peanut4 (
talk)
19:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)reply
A script has been used to generate a semi-
automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and
house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click
here. Thanks,
APRt04:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments from The Rambling Man
Lead - first paragraph is one sentence long. Rework.
"Over his entire career, as of October 2007, he" - it's late Jan 2008, this needs updating.
I didn't add this. Is it worth removing?
'The BBC even asked..." - this has POV hints. "even asked"? Just "asked" would be sufficient.
""a beauti[ful]" as above this is unnecessary. Also, it's a microscopic quote which has even be paraphrased (per your [ful]) so it's just not worth it.
"His good run of form" or "His run of good form" - which is it really?
"Throughout the season Milner was positive about his team. He remained confident that Villa would recover after making a poor start to the season and praised the quality of the squad, as well as its spirit.[27]" - who cares?! All players are most likely to be "confident" they would do alright. This is fanzine stuff.
It's hard to find interviews of him while he was at Villa. Best I can do.
I was told this section was too short so I was trying to exspand it.
"The newly appointed Newcastle manager Glenn Roeder appeared to appreciate Milner's ability more than Souness and expressed a desire that he remain a Newcastle player. " - this uncited and reads like
WP:OR.
Fixed.
"This — the departure of O'Leary and the shortage of transfer funds at Villa — meant that a deal to sign Milner permanently seemed unlikely." - doesn't make sense to me.
Fixed
"...continued to impress..." prove it. Quite POV.
What follows is what proves it.
No, not at all. He scored a goal in a game against Switzerland. So did two other players. Did they impress too? What about the defenders who kept Switzerland down to two, did they impress as well? It's your opinion that scoring a single goal against half-rate U-21 opponents who have no real league in a match where England scraped a 3-2 win is "continuing to impress".
The Rambling Man (
talk)
18:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)reply
"Allardyce highly praised Milner during the season, saying, "He can only get better from here".[54]"
Probably should be "Allardyce praised Milner highly..."
This is funny because "only get better from here" could mean he was absolutely terrible. Work needed to make this sound appropriate.
No it's not. It's the Newcastle United website. I changed the text accordingly, though not sure if his own club website is appropriate either.
Peanut4 (
talk)
21:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments Use of non neutral language - avoid praising as the voice of the encyclopedia. If you want to describe the beauty of his play, find reliable sources who've done so and quote them. However, avoid over-use of this, as it can lead to a feel of
hagiography and (worse) lack of balance. Also, if you come here, it's because you're soliciting the opinions of other users. There's a fine balance between challenging issues raised because you don't understand them and challenging them because they're critical of "your" article. The former is fine. The latter is bad. And currently, you're giving the impression of the latter, which will make people wonder why they bother giving their efforts to reviewing. --
Dweller (
talk)
11:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)reply
^Cite error: The named reference interview was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
Hoping to give this the final push to FA status. Has already failed once mainly due to the poor prose so that is the main thing I want to address in this PR.
Buc (
talk)
20:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments from Woody
Just remembering something from when I recently went through the prose, all statements in "quotation marks" need to be explicitly cited, especially the early stuff on Souness etc. I think the three copyeditors have tightened up the specific grammar/spelling issues and have reduced redundancy. There is still a slight whiff of fanzine about it though.
Woody (
talk)
20:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Before the stint, he saw it as a valuable experience that would progress him as a player. What has that got to do with his career?
It gave him experience.
It is the tone that isn't good Buc.
Reworded
Milner later confirmed that he was happy about his future at the club and with the new manager. Good for him, not really telling us much though. As I said earlier, I think it still has fanzine issues and it isn't very encyclopedic in its current form.
Tell you about how he felt at the time.
Style of play
Milner believes that he is a hard worker, confident and relaxed,[1] and he expresses a willingness to play as much as possible. Not very encyclopedic, or neccessary. It sounds like it is coming from his agent.
It's hard to find stuff about his Style of play. This is the best I can do.
Milner is described on his official site as "a good reader of the game". : So what?
To be honest, much of the style of play section can be rewriten or wiped.
It's hard to find stuff about his Style of play. This is the best I can do.
If it ain't good, chop it. Just write from a neutral point of view. These are symptoms of a problem Buc. The whole section needs rewording. The information is ok, it just needs to have a neutral tone. I tried to show you, with
this diff, the direction it needs to go. Whether you act on it is your prerogative Buc...
Woody (
talk)
17:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)reply
The information is good, the tone isn't. It needs rewording and the fanzine type prose needs to be eliminated. Rewording will not affect its comprehensiveness.
See this is the circular problem that keeps comming up. No matter what I or anyone else does, no matter how many c/e I ask for, no matter how much feedback or advice I ask for, I keep just getting told the prose isn't good enough. There is really nothing more I personally can do about this, clearly I can't see what others can.
Buc (
talk)
10:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)reply
References
Statements in quotation marks need specific references. Particularly the Souness stuff.
By specific, I mean after the quotes as in Souness said "Milner was bad"[2] instead of Souness said that "Milner was bad" in a diatribe about playing standards at the northern Club, which was not well received by critics.[3][4]
It wasn't a quote on purpose, it was an example. Where you have quotation marks, especially on the section about a team of Milners, you need to have quote-specific citations.
Woody (
talk)
22:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)reply
I still don't understand the need for the first couple of sentences at the start of the career section. It seems only to be an overview of his career and repeated info from the lead. Though maybe I'm wrong - anyone else with any thoughts on this?
Shouldn't his career statistics be the other way round, with the most recent season at the bottom. It is how timelines should be, and how infoboxes appear.
Peanut4 (
talk)
19:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)reply
A script has been used to generate a semi-
automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and
house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click
here. Thanks,
APRt04:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments from The Rambling Man
Lead - first paragraph is one sentence long. Rework.
"Over his entire career, as of October 2007, he" - it's late Jan 2008, this needs updating.
I didn't add this. Is it worth removing?
'The BBC even asked..." - this has POV hints. "even asked"? Just "asked" would be sufficient.
""a beauti[ful]" as above this is unnecessary. Also, it's a microscopic quote which has even be paraphrased (per your [ful]) so it's just not worth it.
"His good run of form" or "His run of good form" - which is it really?
"Throughout the season Milner was positive about his team. He remained confident that Villa would recover after making a poor start to the season and praised the quality of the squad, as well as its spirit.[27]" - who cares?! All players are most likely to be "confident" they would do alright. This is fanzine stuff.
It's hard to find interviews of him while he was at Villa. Best I can do.
I was told this section was too short so I was trying to exspand it.
"The newly appointed Newcastle manager Glenn Roeder appeared to appreciate Milner's ability more than Souness and expressed a desire that he remain a Newcastle player. " - this uncited and reads like
WP:OR.
Fixed.
"This — the departure of O'Leary and the shortage of transfer funds at Villa — meant that a deal to sign Milner permanently seemed unlikely." - doesn't make sense to me.
Fixed
"...continued to impress..." prove it. Quite POV.
What follows is what proves it.
No, not at all. He scored a goal in a game against Switzerland. So did two other players. Did they impress too? What about the defenders who kept Switzerland down to two, did they impress as well? It's your opinion that scoring a single goal against half-rate U-21 opponents who have no real league in a match where England scraped a 3-2 win is "continuing to impress".
The Rambling Man (
talk)
18:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)reply
"Allardyce highly praised Milner during the season, saying, "He can only get better from here".[54]"
Probably should be "Allardyce praised Milner highly..."
This is funny because "only get better from here" could mean he was absolutely terrible. Work needed to make this sound appropriate.
No it's not. It's the Newcastle United website. I changed the text accordingly, though not sure if his own club website is appropriate either.
Peanut4 (
talk)
21:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Comments Use of non neutral language - avoid praising as the voice of the encyclopedia. If you want to describe the beauty of his play, find reliable sources who've done so and quote them. However, avoid over-use of this, as it can lead to a feel of
hagiography and (worse) lack of balance. Also, if you come here, it's because you're soliciting the opinions of other users. There's a fine balance between challenging issues raised because you don't understand them and challenging them because they're critical of "your" article. The former is fine. The latter is bad. And currently, you're giving the impression of the latter, which will make people wonder why they bother giving their efforts to reviewing. --
Dweller (
talk)
11:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)reply
^Cite error: The named reference interview was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).