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In April of this year, I rewrote this article about a significant 16th-century poet from a lesser-known region. It passed as a Good Article after being reviewed by UndercoverClassicist on May 29th.
I've listed this article for peer review because I intend to nominate it for FA. My primary concerns are MOS and sourcing, particularly to ensure there is no close paraphrasing. I welcome all comments and feedback.
Thanks, — Golden call me maybe? 17:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
Saving a space here: I'll take a look in the next couple of days.
From what I can remember of the GA review, the main open question marks I noticed for FAC were to do with comprehensiveness and, to a lesser extent, sourcing: there are a lot of tertiary sources in the bibliography, which are generally disfavoured versus secondary sources (since they are, by nature, second-hand agglomerations of those sources). There may also be some more work to do on NPOV, and ensuring that value judgements about Fuzuli's work are properly contextualised within the scholarly discussion of it. We did a lot of work on close paraphrasing during the GA, and I think it would be best if someone else did a source review to pick up anything I missed and to ensure that our standards were in line with what's needed. UndercoverClassicist ( talk) 14:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
was a 16th-century poet who composed poetry: a bit of a tautology.
Fuzuli's work was widely known and admired throughout the Persianate Turkic cultural domain from the 16th to the 19th century, reaching as far as Central Asia and India.: grammatically a little ambiguous: did the Persianate Turkic domain reach as far as India, or Fuzuli's work?
a Middle Eastern tragic love story: better and clearer as
a Middle-Eastern story of tragic love("tragic" can mean "artistically rubbish").
his use of mystic metaphors and symbols, showing influences from Persian poets like Nizami, Jami, and Hafez, as well as Azerbaijani poets like Habibi and Nasimi.: could clarify; it's a little ambiguous as to whether these influences affect his poetry as a whole, or specifically its mystic (mystical?) elements.
helping it to attain a higher level of refinement: I'm not sure this is strictly a verifiable statement (how do you measure a language's refinement?) Couching it as someone's assessment would solve this problem.
His work has been characterised as: I think MOS:LEADCITE would like a citation here, as we're implicitly saying that someone has characterised it as such.
In his writings, he wrote: tautological (either cut down or be more specific on writings).
Fuzuli lived in Iraq under the Aq Qoyunlu dynasty, which had ruled the region since 1470 until 1508: punctuation is a bit wonky here and has led to ambiguity. I think 1508 marks the end of Aq Qoyunlu rule rather than F's time in Iraq, so
which ruled the region between 1470 and 1508is clearer. The Aq Qoyunlu are called a confederation in our article, which is quite a different thing to a dynasty: is this the right word?
He wrote that he never found... was never realised: had never... had never been..., I think.
argues that Karbala is the most likely place of death: neater as of his death or, less preferably, his most likely...
the nickname of "poet of love" by scholars: delete of, and consider
the nickname poet of loveper MOS:WORDSASWORDS.
He has also stated that Fuzuli's poems: disambiguate as Macit has also stated... (the last he was Fuzuli).
their graves transformed into türbes (tombs): this needs a bit more explanation, since the gloss tombs (use single quotes for glosses) is a straightforward synonym for graves in English.
The Garden of the Blessed': Single quotes plus italics don't really work: I'd suggest deitalicising (like
Dante's Inferno ('Hell')...
was written mostly in Azerbaijani to provide Turkic people with access to the Battle of Karbala narrative: I'd cut this: the following sentence explains that this is the literary conceit of the work, and it's a mistake to straightforwardly take that as the poet's motivation.
134-couplet longshould be
134-couplet-long.
The latter piece conveys the poet's philosophy on life as a whole: can we expand at all on what that was?
Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad and the first Shia Imam.: rephrase so it doesn't sound like Muhammad and the first Shia Imam were a couple.
Fuzuli is also regarded as one of the greatest poets in the Turkic literary world: a little flowery: one of the greatest Turkic poets?
Fuzuli was succeeded by his son: what does was succeeded by mean in this context?
Fazli means "belonging to munificence or abundance": can it also mean belonging to Fuzuli? If so, good to explain; if not, we might remind the reader here of the literal meaning of Fuzuli's name.
Fazli is believed to have received his poetic education from his father: suggest from Fuzuli to avoid repetition.
with modern scholar Sakina Berengian emphasising his greatness by referring to him: I'd cut emphasising his greatness; better to show, not to tell, and it's borderline for NPOV.
due to his flawless use of language in his poems: again, too much of a value judgement to put straightforwardly in Wikipedia's voice. We can't verify whether someone's writing is flawless (what does that empirically mean?)
His musical knowledge, combined with the harmonious and expressive nature of his poems, make them suitable for composing music: should be makes, but this sentence doesn't quite check out: his musical knowledge, separate from what's in the poems themselves, is neither here or there. Suggest flipping to
The harmonious and expressive nature of Fuzuli's poems, informed by his extensive musical knowledge, makes them suitable....
by both members of high society and performers outside major cultural hubs: slightly odd phrasing: and nobody else (including the poor audiences of these performers?).
outside major cultural hubs, where classical Turkish music merges with folk music.: a bit ambiguous as to whether this happens in or outside the cultural hubs. Do we mean major cities?
@ UndercoverClassicist: Thank you again for the review! I've replied to your points above and need your help with some of them. — Golden call me maybe? 21:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD section is a little short for an FA -- does it give an overview of all the key facts about this person and their work? Many of the citations do not have page numbers. You need to add the page numbers within these sources where you found the facts discussed in the text. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 18:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Described as the "foremost of all the Azeri [Azerbaijani] poets", Fuzuli is also regarded as one of the greatest poets in the Turkic literary world.Do you think I should separate the Burrill citation and place it after the comma, or would a citation in the middle of the sentence violate MOS? Additionally, would it be acceptable to say
Described as the "foremost of all the Azeri [Azerbaijani] poets"without attributing it to Burrill within that sentence? If I were to do so, I would need to provide a description of Burrill as the first sentence of the section, but I am unsure if that would look good. — Golden call me maybe? 18:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
These will come in no particular order.
The date of 900 (1495), which was accepted until recently, [...] are not based on any serious document. So we have a source from 1996 saying that until recently, 1495 was the accepted date. We can probably infer from this that the date was accepted until the mid-90s. However, I am not sure whether this kind of inference would be accepted in a FA. Let me know your thoughts. — Golden call me maybe?
Various and indiscriminate these comments were, but I hope they help. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 21:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
You were kind enough to invite my comments, and here they are, or at least the first batch of them.
The Encyclopædia Iranica distinguishes his work by "the way in which he integrates the mystic and the erotic, in the combination of the conventionality of his topics with the sincerity of his style, and in his intense expression of feelings of passionate love, of pity for the unfortunate, and of patience in the face of adversity".— Golden call me maybe?
That's all for now. More shortly. Hope these points so far are helpful. Tim riley talk 21:30, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Those are my few suggestions. I hope to see the piece at FAC in due course. Tim riley talk 16:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Some of Fuzuli's works have been translated into English. Leyli and Majnun was translated by the writer-translator Sofi Huri in 1970 in London, and Sohbetü’l-esmâr was traslated by the Turkologist Gunnar Jarring in 1936 in Lund under the title The Contest of the Fruits.— Golden call me maybe?
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 20:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | This peer review discussion is closed. |
In April of this year, I rewrote this article about a significant 16th-century poet from a lesser-known region. It passed as a Good Article after being reviewed by UndercoverClassicist on May 29th.
I've listed this article for peer review because I intend to nominate it for FA. My primary concerns are MOS and sourcing, particularly to ensure there is no close paraphrasing. I welcome all comments and feedback.
Thanks, — Golden call me maybe? 17:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
Saving a space here: I'll take a look in the next couple of days.
From what I can remember of the GA review, the main open question marks I noticed for FAC were to do with comprehensiveness and, to a lesser extent, sourcing: there are a lot of tertiary sources in the bibliography, which are generally disfavoured versus secondary sources (since they are, by nature, second-hand agglomerations of those sources). There may also be some more work to do on NPOV, and ensuring that value judgements about Fuzuli's work are properly contextualised within the scholarly discussion of it. We did a lot of work on close paraphrasing during the GA, and I think it would be best if someone else did a source review to pick up anything I missed and to ensure that our standards were in line with what's needed. UndercoverClassicist ( talk) 14:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
was a 16th-century poet who composed poetry: a bit of a tautology.
Fuzuli's work was widely known and admired throughout the Persianate Turkic cultural domain from the 16th to the 19th century, reaching as far as Central Asia and India.: grammatically a little ambiguous: did the Persianate Turkic domain reach as far as India, or Fuzuli's work?
a Middle Eastern tragic love story: better and clearer as
a Middle-Eastern story of tragic love("tragic" can mean "artistically rubbish").
his use of mystic metaphors and symbols, showing influences from Persian poets like Nizami, Jami, and Hafez, as well as Azerbaijani poets like Habibi and Nasimi.: could clarify; it's a little ambiguous as to whether these influences affect his poetry as a whole, or specifically its mystic (mystical?) elements.
helping it to attain a higher level of refinement: I'm not sure this is strictly a verifiable statement (how do you measure a language's refinement?) Couching it as someone's assessment would solve this problem.
His work has been characterised as: I think MOS:LEADCITE would like a citation here, as we're implicitly saying that someone has characterised it as such.
In his writings, he wrote: tautological (either cut down or be more specific on writings).
Fuzuli lived in Iraq under the Aq Qoyunlu dynasty, which had ruled the region since 1470 until 1508: punctuation is a bit wonky here and has led to ambiguity. I think 1508 marks the end of Aq Qoyunlu rule rather than F's time in Iraq, so
which ruled the region between 1470 and 1508is clearer. The Aq Qoyunlu are called a confederation in our article, which is quite a different thing to a dynasty: is this the right word?
He wrote that he never found... was never realised: had never... had never been..., I think.
argues that Karbala is the most likely place of death: neater as of his death or, less preferably, his most likely...
the nickname of "poet of love" by scholars: delete of, and consider
the nickname poet of loveper MOS:WORDSASWORDS.
He has also stated that Fuzuli's poems: disambiguate as Macit has also stated... (the last he was Fuzuli).
their graves transformed into türbes (tombs): this needs a bit more explanation, since the gloss tombs (use single quotes for glosses) is a straightforward synonym for graves in English.
The Garden of the Blessed': Single quotes plus italics don't really work: I'd suggest deitalicising (like
Dante's Inferno ('Hell')...
was written mostly in Azerbaijani to provide Turkic people with access to the Battle of Karbala narrative: I'd cut this: the following sentence explains that this is the literary conceit of the work, and it's a mistake to straightforwardly take that as the poet's motivation.
134-couplet longshould be
134-couplet-long.
The latter piece conveys the poet's philosophy on life as a whole: can we expand at all on what that was?
Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad and the first Shia Imam.: rephrase so it doesn't sound like Muhammad and the first Shia Imam were a couple.
Fuzuli is also regarded as one of the greatest poets in the Turkic literary world: a little flowery: one of the greatest Turkic poets?
Fuzuli was succeeded by his son: what does was succeeded by mean in this context?
Fazli means "belonging to munificence or abundance": can it also mean belonging to Fuzuli? If so, good to explain; if not, we might remind the reader here of the literal meaning of Fuzuli's name.
Fazli is believed to have received his poetic education from his father: suggest from Fuzuli to avoid repetition.
with modern scholar Sakina Berengian emphasising his greatness by referring to him: I'd cut emphasising his greatness; better to show, not to tell, and it's borderline for NPOV.
due to his flawless use of language in his poems: again, too much of a value judgement to put straightforwardly in Wikipedia's voice. We can't verify whether someone's writing is flawless (what does that empirically mean?)
His musical knowledge, combined with the harmonious and expressive nature of his poems, make them suitable for composing music: should be makes, but this sentence doesn't quite check out: his musical knowledge, separate from what's in the poems themselves, is neither here or there. Suggest flipping to
The harmonious and expressive nature of Fuzuli's poems, informed by his extensive musical knowledge, makes them suitable....
by both members of high society and performers outside major cultural hubs: slightly odd phrasing: and nobody else (including the poor audiences of these performers?).
outside major cultural hubs, where classical Turkish music merges with folk music.: a bit ambiguous as to whether this happens in or outside the cultural hubs. Do we mean major cities?
@ UndercoverClassicist: Thank you again for the review! I've replied to your points above and need your help with some of them. — Golden call me maybe? 21:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD section is a little short for an FA -- does it give an overview of all the key facts about this person and their work? Many of the citations do not have page numbers. You need to add the page numbers within these sources where you found the facts discussed in the text. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 18:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Described as the "foremost of all the Azeri [Azerbaijani] poets", Fuzuli is also regarded as one of the greatest poets in the Turkic literary world.Do you think I should separate the Burrill citation and place it after the comma, or would a citation in the middle of the sentence violate MOS? Additionally, would it be acceptable to say
Described as the "foremost of all the Azeri [Azerbaijani] poets"without attributing it to Burrill within that sentence? If I were to do so, I would need to provide a description of Burrill as the first sentence of the section, but I am unsure if that would look good. — Golden call me maybe? 18:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
These will come in no particular order.
The date of 900 (1495), which was accepted until recently, [...] are not based on any serious document. So we have a source from 1996 saying that until recently, 1495 was the accepted date. We can probably infer from this that the date was accepted until the mid-90s. However, I am not sure whether this kind of inference would be accepted in a FA. Let me know your thoughts. — Golden call me maybe?
Various and indiscriminate these comments were, but I hope they help. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 21:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
You were kind enough to invite my comments, and here they are, or at least the first batch of them.
The Encyclopædia Iranica distinguishes his work by "the way in which he integrates the mystic and the erotic, in the combination of the conventionality of his topics with the sincerity of his style, and in his intense expression of feelings of passionate love, of pity for the unfortunate, and of patience in the face of adversity".— Golden call me maybe?
That's all for now. More shortly. Hope these points so far are helpful. Tim riley talk 21:30, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Those are my few suggestions. I hope to see the piece at FAC in due course. Tim riley talk 16:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Some of Fuzuli's works have been translated into English. Leyli and Majnun was translated by the writer-translator Sofi Huri in 1970 in London, and Sohbetü’l-esmâr was traslated by the Turkologist Gunnar Jarring in 1936 in Lund under the title The Contest of the Fruits.— Golden call me maybe?
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 20:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)