The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep You seem to forget the "no matter what anyone says" part of the template. This is done in a clearly humorous vein, and is not apparently aimed at anyone at all, other than the user himself. WP is not so PC that every term must pass the gantlet of political correctness yet, is it?
Collect (
talk)
21:21, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
It is not allowed for people to poke fun at themselves? (sigh). I find no reason to view this as hateful speech at all, nor (apparently) do the ones with ADHD who use this template view it as hate speech. And since the template is NOT used in any encyclopedia articles, that is a straw man issue at best.
Collect (
talk)
00:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Obvious delete. There is no room for such hatred here and there is no way to make it to not be hatred based. This name should be salted after to prevent someone from ever using it again.
Ottava Rima (
talk)
21:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - I've looked at a couple dozen of the userpages that are transcluding this box, and I can't find any reason to believe that they are intending to insult the mentally retarded, or those with learning disabilities. In fact many of the people who have this userbox on their page also have userboxes indicating that they have Asperger's Syndrome or ADHD, which would lead me to believe that they're protesting against having been called retarded themselves, not intending to offend other people. Still, I can see the potential for misunderstanding and I am not wholly familiar with what the boundaries of what one can place on one's userpage are, so I am not going to vote 'keep' now. SoapTalk/Contributions22:20, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Well, if those same people (Asperger's and the rest) want a userbox that says "I am retarded", would you feel that such would be acceptable? The two ("am" and "am not") would seem to have the same exact effect and would be comparable in all ways. However, the perspective might persuade you to see that this is problematic?
Ottava Rima (
talk)
23:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
That would be deliberately offensive, and not really comparable. I am not saying I'm going to cry if this userbox gets banned, but I think that it should be made clear that most of the users who have it on their page now are not purposely trying to be offensive. SoapTalk/Contributions02:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Allow keep. By and large I'm not a fan of userboxes and the like, but we have them. This one seems rather more harmless than some of the political ones. In fact, it is less disruptive of the atmosphere of Wikipedia than some of the discourse above ("hatred" - really?). As to the arguments above: "offensive to those with learning disabilities" - seems rather a stretch to me. "what if it said 'I am retarded'" - also not eo ipso problematic to me, and that's not what it says. "User does not take WP or colleagues seriously" - may or may not be true, but fortunately for many others in our community, we do not delete content from userspace based on whether we judge the author takes WP seriously. More broadly, I wish we'd all spend more mental energy communicating with others effectively and without offensive intent ourselves, and less time attempting to label others' discourse as offensive. Sorry for the soapbox.
Martinp (
talk)
05:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
keep - really quite harmless, and I don't expect that retarded people would be offended by someone saying that they are not that way themselves. As long as it steers clear of saying something negative about a group of people it should be allowed.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk)
Delete now we are finally getting to the meat of these userbox deletions: if it doesn't help build the encyclopedia and offends more than the delicate sorts, they go. We should apply this to the vast majority of "I believe..." userboxes.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
00:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep.
WP:NOT#CENSORED. Some things on wikipedia might offend some people. Some people need to grow up and learn to appreciate humour. It might be considered offensive to the mentally retarded, but it is clearly intended in a humorous context, and not to disparage the mentally retarded. FirestormTalk01:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Yeah, Wikipedia is not censored because it seeks to educate people in all things and does not deviate from this pursuit based on what some people might construe as offensive. This userbox does not fall within those parameters, obviously. Let's stop taking policy out of context, shall we? —Anonymous DissidentTalk08:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep - I detest fluff userboxes with a passion, as can be seen on my own page, but I detest political correctness sprees for censorship even more;
WP:NOTCENSORED rules the day here. Until the day comes when all fluff userboxes are wiped en masse, then they all should stay. No nit-picking.
Tarc (
talk)
14:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The existence of this userbox doesn't "prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia", though. IAR is not applicable.
Tarc (
talk)
16:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
It is a rather good argument, actually. You find it "distasteful". You find it "potentially (and probably) offensive". Those are value judgments based on one's own personal opinions, rather than judgments based upon any Wikipedia policy. Refer again to
WP:NOTCENSORED, and in particular the line "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so".
Tarc (
talk)
03:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
And as I said, your IAR rationale is fraudulent, as your reasons for doing so are personal, rather than for the betterment of the Wikipedia.
Tarc (
talk)
03:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete - How is this any better than, for example, "This user is an not an
autistic idiot?" I hope that most people would find that offensive. The same train of thought should be applied for this case.
NuclearWarfare(
Talk)00:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I hope you are not seriously equating those two statements. This one does not make a negative comment about people with mental retardation, whereas yours does. You also chose a particularly poor word for your example. seresin (
¡? ) 01:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I am indeed equating the two. The userbox's message says "I am not an idiot like those
mentally retarded guys," given the way retarded is used as slang among the younger folk. That's functionally identical to "I am not an idiot like those
autistic guys," in my view.
NuclearWarfare(
Talk)03:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep, has anyone even noticed the "no matter what anyone says" part, basically its saying that the user does not think he is retarded, regardless of external opinion.
ViperSnake15103:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Delete - Certainly not conducive to a collegial atmosphere. Harmful to the project, and that is all there is to it. This is so not the place for unlimited self expression. —
JakeWartenberg03:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep You seem to forget the "no matter what anyone says" part of the template. This is done in a clearly humorous vein, and is not apparently aimed at anyone at all, other than the user himself. WP is not so PC that every term must pass the gantlet of political correctness yet, is it?
Collect (
talk)
21:21, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
It is not allowed for people to poke fun at themselves? (sigh). I find no reason to view this as hateful speech at all, nor (apparently) do the ones with ADHD who use this template view it as hate speech. And since the template is NOT used in any encyclopedia articles, that is a straw man issue at best.
Collect (
talk)
00:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Obvious delete. There is no room for such hatred here and there is no way to make it to not be hatred based. This name should be salted after to prevent someone from ever using it again.
Ottava Rima (
talk)
21:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - I've looked at a couple dozen of the userpages that are transcluding this box, and I can't find any reason to believe that they are intending to insult the mentally retarded, or those with learning disabilities. In fact many of the people who have this userbox on their page also have userboxes indicating that they have Asperger's Syndrome or ADHD, which would lead me to believe that they're protesting against having been called retarded themselves, not intending to offend other people. Still, I can see the potential for misunderstanding and I am not wholly familiar with what the boundaries of what one can place on one's userpage are, so I am not going to vote 'keep' now. SoapTalk/Contributions22:20, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Well, if those same people (Asperger's and the rest) want a userbox that says "I am retarded", would you feel that such would be acceptable? The two ("am" and "am not") would seem to have the same exact effect and would be comparable in all ways. However, the perspective might persuade you to see that this is problematic?
Ottava Rima (
talk)
23:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)reply
That would be deliberately offensive, and not really comparable. I am not saying I'm going to cry if this userbox gets banned, but I think that it should be made clear that most of the users who have it on their page now are not purposely trying to be offensive. SoapTalk/Contributions02:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Allow keep. By and large I'm not a fan of userboxes and the like, but we have them. This one seems rather more harmless than some of the political ones. In fact, it is less disruptive of the atmosphere of Wikipedia than some of the discourse above ("hatred" - really?). As to the arguments above: "offensive to those with learning disabilities" - seems rather a stretch to me. "what if it said 'I am retarded'" - also not eo ipso problematic to me, and that's not what it says. "User does not take WP or colleagues seriously" - may or may not be true, but fortunately for many others in our community, we do not delete content from userspace based on whether we judge the author takes WP seriously. More broadly, I wish we'd all spend more mental energy communicating with others effectively and without offensive intent ourselves, and less time attempting to label others' discourse as offensive. Sorry for the soapbox.
Martinp (
talk)
05:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)reply
keep - really quite harmless, and I don't expect that retarded people would be offended by someone saying that they are not that way themselves. As long as it steers clear of saying something negative about a group of people it should be allowed.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk)
Delete now we are finally getting to the meat of these userbox deletions: if it doesn't help build the encyclopedia and offends more than the delicate sorts, they go. We should apply this to the vast majority of "I believe..." userboxes.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
00:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep.
WP:NOT#CENSORED. Some things on wikipedia might offend some people. Some people need to grow up and learn to appreciate humour. It might be considered offensive to the mentally retarded, but it is clearly intended in a humorous context, and not to disparage the mentally retarded. FirestormTalk01:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Yeah, Wikipedia is not censored because it seeks to educate people in all things and does not deviate from this pursuit based on what some people might construe as offensive. This userbox does not fall within those parameters, obviously. Let's stop taking policy out of context, shall we? —Anonymous DissidentTalk08:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep - I detest fluff userboxes with a passion, as can be seen on my own page, but I detest political correctness sprees for censorship even more;
WP:NOTCENSORED rules the day here. Until the day comes when all fluff userboxes are wiped en masse, then they all should stay. No nit-picking.
Tarc (
talk)
14:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The existence of this userbox doesn't "prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia", though. IAR is not applicable.
Tarc (
talk)
16:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)reply
It is a rather good argument, actually. You find it "distasteful". You find it "potentially (and probably) offensive". Those are value judgments based on one's own personal opinions, rather than judgments based upon any Wikipedia policy. Refer again to
WP:NOTCENSORED, and in particular the line "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so".
Tarc (
talk)
03:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
And as I said, your IAR rationale is fraudulent, as your reasons for doing so are personal, rather than for the betterment of the Wikipedia.
Tarc (
talk)
03:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete - How is this any better than, for example, "This user is an not an
autistic idiot?" I hope that most people would find that offensive. The same train of thought should be applied for this case.
NuclearWarfare(
Talk)00:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I hope you are not seriously equating those two statements. This one does not make a negative comment about people with mental retardation, whereas yours does. You also chose a particularly poor word for your example. seresin (
¡? ) 01:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I am indeed equating the two. The userbox's message says "I am not an idiot like those
mentally retarded guys," given the way retarded is used as slang among the younger folk. That's functionally identical to "I am not an idiot like those
autistic guys," in my view.
NuclearWarfare(
Talk)03:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep, has anyone even noticed the "no matter what anyone says" part, basically its saying that the user does not think he is retarded, regardless of external opinion.
ViperSnake15103:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Delete - Certainly not conducive to a collegial atmosphere. Harmful to the project, and that is all there is to it. This is so not the place for unlimited self expression. —
JakeWartenberg03:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.