The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Delete. This userbox advocates for abolishment, elimination, destruction of the State of Israel and therefore extending the territory of the State of Palestine over all of its territory. As both Israel and Palestine are
ethnocratic nation states in character, bringing all of the (then-former) Israelis under the rule of a state with a predominant Palestinian Arab character can not happen peacefully, and the Jews are a majority demographically on this territory so imposing a state that does not symbolically represent this majority, and only bears the ethnic character of the minority is an extremist fantasy, that is most commonly resolved by imagining mass expulsion, which is then justified by evil deeds of Israel.—
Alalch E.09:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I've yet to see proofs that Palestine is ethnocratic in character. Rather it's just a secularised name of the land unlike "Israel", at least the name isn't considering that you can't say the same about Mandatory Palestine and that it was literally used by the early zionist organisations for example. Furthermore, stating the demographics of that land is weird, please keep in mind that there are a lot of Palestinians who are expulsed from it and still bear the right to return. — Yours Truly,⚑ AtikaAtikawa13:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This makes a lot of assumptions about what is meant by the template. It could be anything from a Palestinian ethnostate (bad) to a democratic, binational one-state solution bearing the historical name of "Palestine" (good).
Chaotıċ Enby (
talk ·
contribs)
20:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
For a topic as sensitive as this, where ambiguous references like this one can very plausibly mean an ethnostate, we should not tolerate ambiguity.
Zanahary (
talk)
01:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per "user is not ECR", so we can skip the whole discussion about what is meant by "from the river to the sea" and avoid another inflammatory I/P debate.
Chaotıċ Enby (
talk ·
contribs)
20:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Due to the vague and inflammatory nature of the infobox, as well as PIA being a historically contentious issue that has resulted in infamous LTA cases, ANI and ARBCOM proceedings that has only ramped up following the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war, this infobox can only be counterproductive to civility, collaboration and discussion.
Air on White (
talk)
00:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe that all userboxes that advocate for war or violence, especially in regards to the establishment of new countries and abolition of current ones or changes in national borders, should face scrutiny. You could argue that "From the river to the sea!" doesn't inherently encourage violence, but its use in practice has accompanied calls for violence often enough that the infobox is worthy of deletion.
Air on White (
talk)
00:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Advocating a one state solution seems to be fair game in the usual discretion we allow in user boxes, and way below the thresholds for what we have consistently got a pass over the years.
MarioGom (
talk)
19:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep, all this really does is provide a reworded variation of a sentiment that is already expressed in a
fewother Userboxes. I don't see how this userbox is any different from Userboxes I stated prior and others, such as
Oren neu dag's userbox on the matter or
this one, which also advocate for a
One-state solution. It's also worth mentioning something which
User: AtikaAtikawa brought up in their argument, deleting this could be seen as bias. Why should we get rid of one Pro-Palestinian userbox, yet leave others which are essentially the same, but are rather pro-Israel. If the consensus is to delete this userbox, the others I mentioned here may also be worth taking a second-glance at. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Samoht27 (
talk •
contribs)
20:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. For those of you not aware, and it seems at least MarioGom isn't. Calling from the river to the sea is a not a call for a one state solution, unless your solution involves for the elimination of the state of Israel and the killing or expulsion of Jewish people from the land (hint: see the flag used). This is the second userbox from User:AtikaAtikawa advocating for violence against Israelis and Jewish people. How is this even debatable here and how isn't User:AtikaAtikawa permanently blocked from this site?
Gonnym (
talk)
06:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The only problem is the creator isn't extended confirmed. So keep if anyone else wants to take it, otherwise delete but allow re-creation once the editor hits extended confirmed. Palestinians between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea are not currently free, and they should be. Nothing wrong with saying that.
Levivich (
talk)
10:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: If you want a userbox that cautiously approaches a very sensitive and contentious topic, this is not it. Wikipedia has no obligation to allow slogans that can plausibly deny advocating for violence, ethnic cleansing, etc. I would vote the same for an identical userbox that replaced the silhouette and colors with a design referring to Israel "from the river to the sea".
Zanahary (
talk)
01:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Delete. This userbox advocates for abolishment, elimination, destruction of the State of Israel and therefore extending the territory of the State of Palestine over all of its territory. As both Israel and Palestine are
ethnocratic nation states in character, bringing all of the (then-former) Israelis under the rule of a state with a predominant Palestinian Arab character can not happen peacefully, and the Jews are a majority demographically on this territory so imposing a state that does not symbolically represent this majority, and only bears the ethnic character of the minority is an extremist fantasy, that is most commonly resolved by imagining mass expulsion, which is then justified by evil deeds of Israel.—
Alalch E.09:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I've yet to see proofs that Palestine is ethnocratic in character. Rather it's just a secularised name of the land unlike "Israel", at least the name isn't considering that you can't say the same about Mandatory Palestine and that it was literally used by the early zionist organisations for example. Furthermore, stating the demographics of that land is weird, please keep in mind that there are a lot of Palestinians who are expulsed from it and still bear the right to return. — Yours Truly,⚑ AtikaAtikawa13:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This makes a lot of assumptions about what is meant by the template. It could be anything from a Palestinian ethnostate (bad) to a democratic, binational one-state solution bearing the historical name of "Palestine" (good).
Chaotıċ Enby (
talk ·
contribs)
20:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
For a topic as sensitive as this, where ambiguous references like this one can very plausibly mean an ethnostate, we should not tolerate ambiguity.
Zanahary (
talk)
01:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per "user is not ECR", so we can skip the whole discussion about what is meant by "from the river to the sea" and avoid another inflammatory I/P debate.
Chaotıċ Enby (
talk ·
contribs)
20:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Due to the vague and inflammatory nature of the infobox, as well as PIA being a historically contentious issue that has resulted in infamous LTA cases, ANI and ARBCOM proceedings that has only ramped up following the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war, this infobox can only be counterproductive to civility, collaboration and discussion.
Air on White (
talk)
00:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe that all userboxes that advocate for war or violence, especially in regards to the establishment of new countries and abolition of current ones or changes in national borders, should face scrutiny. You could argue that "From the river to the sea!" doesn't inherently encourage violence, but its use in practice has accompanied calls for violence often enough that the infobox is worthy of deletion.
Air on White (
talk)
00:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Advocating a one state solution seems to be fair game in the usual discretion we allow in user boxes, and way below the thresholds for what we have consistently got a pass over the years.
MarioGom (
talk)
19:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep, all this really does is provide a reworded variation of a sentiment that is already expressed in a
fewother Userboxes. I don't see how this userbox is any different from Userboxes I stated prior and others, such as
Oren neu dag's userbox on the matter or
this one, which also advocate for a
One-state solution. It's also worth mentioning something which
User: AtikaAtikawa brought up in their argument, deleting this could be seen as bias. Why should we get rid of one Pro-Palestinian userbox, yet leave others which are essentially the same, but are rather pro-Israel. If the consensus is to delete this userbox, the others I mentioned here may also be worth taking a second-glance at. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Samoht27 (
talk •
contribs)
20:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. For those of you not aware, and it seems at least MarioGom isn't. Calling from the river to the sea is a not a call for a one state solution, unless your solution involves for the elimination of the state of Israel and the killing or expulsion of Jewish people from the land (hint: see the flag used). This is the second userbox from User:AtikaAtikawa advocating for violence against Israelis and Jewish people. How is this even debatable here and how isn't User:AtikaAtikawa permanently blocked from this site?
Gonnym (
talk)
06:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The only problem is the creator isn't extended confirmed. So keep if anyone else wants to take it, otherwise delete but allow re-creation once the editor hits extended confirmed. Palestinians between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea are not currently free, and they should be. Nothing wrong with saying that.
Levivich (
talk)
10:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: If you want a userbox that cautiously approaches a very sensitive and contentious topic, this is not it. Wikipedia has no obligation to allow slogans that can plausibly deny advocating for violence, ethnic cleansing, etc. I would vote the same for an identical userbox that replaced the silhouette and colors with a design referring to Israel "from the river to the sea".
Zanahary (
talk)
01:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.