Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
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Article | List of Turkic states and empires |
Status | closed |
Request date | 18:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC) |
Requesting party | Unknown |
Mediator(s) | Mm40 & Xavexgoem |
Comment | will remain on talk, but closing as unresolved. |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases| List of Turkic states and empires]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance| List of Turkic states and empires]]
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I am requesting mediation for especially the Historical kingdoms and empires section of the article. There are a number of items that need to be added to the list. I also request that the sub-sections Turkic States in Eastern Europe and Turco-Mongol and Turkic Persianate be eliminated. This is an artificial grouping. The article does not have a subsection titled Turkic States in Inner Asia, for instance. While the word Turko-Mongol is a commonly used term by historians the word Turkic Persianate appears to be an Iranian invention (POV). The article should include states, dynasties, kingdoms, and empires established and/or ruled by Turkic rulers. Who are the involved parties?What's going on?There is a disagreement on the list of historical Turkic kingdoms, empires, states, and dynasties. This is the cause of an ongoing slow revert war. The involved users appear to be from countries whose territories were once inclued within some of the states in question or were ruled by Turkic dynasties. Laveol and Gligan did not accept my previous formal mediation request on Turks in Bulgaria. These users appear to be uncomfortable with classifying the Bulgars and the states Bulgars built as Turkic. This is probably because any emphasis on the Turkic roots of the Bulgars -who lent their name and contributed into the formation of the Slavic Bulgarian nation- goes against the current Bulgarian histography. 07fan appears to be Iranian who while preventing the inclusion of certain Turkic states is pushing for the inclusion of the word Persian in the article. This user is also insistant on using the encyclopedia Iranica as a reliable source to tell the world which historical states or dynasties were Turkic. What would you like to change about that?I would like to agree on the structure of the disputed section. The article is about the list of historical Turkic states. This requires taking into account the dynasties that either established or ruled these states. Therfore the relevant section title should also include the word dynasties. Also changing the list into a table format with a column for comments might be an improvement. |
Xav is available via
email. No matter what it is, it's fine by me. Privacy guaranteed!
2 June 2008 - Discussion will speed up somewhere in the afternoon, UTC. I'm unsure whether this should be discussed on the case page or the article talk page, and haven't had an opportunity to talk with Mm40 about the case (although he can jump in at any time without fear). Feel free to talk amongst yourself, keeping in mind the advise near the bottom of the page (section "Now wait..."). I remind everyone to keep a
cool head, and to take breathers every now and then. Anyway, I'm off to bed :-)
Xavexgoem (
talk) 06:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
3 June 2008 - some questions at the bottom, might do some refactoring. I ask that all participants please add this page to their watchlist, since mediation can be a little slow if folks forget it's there ;-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 03:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
11 June 2008 - I'm trying to move discussion to the article talk. This tends to work better for me as a mediator, and for the article and contributors themselves, who'd rather not want the article to languish during discussion. I do not believe this is how medcab (or wikis) work; the case page here is, to me, preamble, and the actual nuts and bolts happen where the project actually works: on the article. So I'm attempting a move there by placing this case sort-of on-hold until contributions happen on the article. Then discussions can happen about the merits of contributions... hopefully, the work done here so far is to discourage editors from discussing the merits of the contributor. When all is said and done, the only abstraction we are allowed as editors is that of editor, not nationality or religion or ideology. Before that abstraction (editor), we have a buncha folks typing furiously at keyboards, all of which generally have 104 keys and lights for numlock and capslock (maybe scroll-lock, but you'd think the keyboards would be cheaper if they'd get rid of that thing).
So: Please edit the article as you were, with respect to the agreement signed below. Anyone who is not a listed party can be briefed about the the aims of that agreement without having to sign it - assume good faith, as always :-)
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As an uninvolved admin, I have to say that Nostradamus1's conduct on this article and its talk page concerns me a great deal. He appears to have been uncivil at times, and has even used racial slurs against other editors. Here he says, " Therefore, entries by Ajami's citing Iranica in order to push Iranian bias and POV -so that the world recognizes them as somebodies- will not stand here." Ajam is a racist and derogatory term used by Arabs against Persians, and if I had seen that comment earlier I would've blocked him for it. Upon a further look at this dispute, Nostradamus1 does not appear to be willing or reasonable enough to resolve the conflict. I think that most users have a consensus here that Encyclopædia Iranica is a reliable source, but Nostradamus has been apparently dismissing it on personal and preferential grounds. So, in light of his disruptive behavior on this page, it looks like this "dispute" is in fact one disruptive editor reverting a page against the consensus of the other involved parties. Khoi khoi 23:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I can tell you as an Iranian that Ajam or Ajami is a racist term when used by a non-Iranian toward an Iranian, similar to how the "N" word is used. -- 07fan ( talk) 06:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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Mm40, another medcabalist, has notified everyone that the case has been opened. If you have questions, comments, complaints, rants, acceptance of mediation, rejection, whatever... here's the place to say so :-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 22:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I accept and thank you for accepting to mediate this case. -- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 13:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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I was not sure how to indicate I agree to the mediation so I created a section for my opinion on the subject. I do not think that a request for mediation was needed for this case. User:Nostradamus seems to be out of option and does not want to answer the questions we posted on the article talkpage. The fact is all the parties on the case excluding Nostradamus himself have the pretty distinct opinion he's a PanTurkic POV pusher. I wouldn't be that inclined to think so until I was convinced he used some nationalistic (PanTurkic to be precise) websites to back his ideas up. But that was some time ago. We repeatedly asked Nostradamus to give us a definition of what exactly a Tukic state is. All his sources mentioned that some of the rules of the Second Bulgarian empire were of partial Cuman origin. From that he somehow got to naming a Slavic empire (cause you'll never find any scholar calling it something else) a Turkic empire. Not only he ignored the word partial, but he ignored the fact that a ruler does not make a country. If this was so then Bulgaria didn't exist until 1945 cause its rulers were German princes. I now see that Gligan has got the exact same point, but I'll still keep my comment as well. As for the whole Iranian/Turkic theory about Bulgars. Neither me, nor Gligan, evidently, has anything against any of the two theories. The fact is Nostradamus is trying to impose that his view is the only right one. He dismisses all other points and represents only his POV. That violates at least two Wiki policies WP:NPOV and {{Wiki:NOR]] since he's neglecting a view that is far from fringe and making his own assumptions not allowing not only other contributors' opinion, but some scholars' opinion as well. That pretty much sums it up. I'll write again if something else occurs to me. -- Laveol T 21:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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I aim to nip this in the bud. You all know NPOV and civility, so I'm not going to put brackets around them. I want to see Source A, Source B, Source C, Argument A, Argument B, Argument C, from Editors A, B, and C respectively. Never do I (or anyone) want to hear Source A or Argument A is wrong because Editor A is Bulgarian/Turkish/Iranian or anything of that nature. We are Wikipedia editors; everything else is secondary to the functioning of the project, but is still very important to the individual and the growth of the project, and so we will respect that.
Sign agreement here:
The focus of this mediation will be main-space contributions, and the arguments for their inclusion/removal/revision. If anyone goes off the deep-end, I'll reel them back in. Xavexgoem ( talk) 02:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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I believe I've demonstrated my goodwill to discuss our disagreements by requesting this mediation. The three users in question have not accepted this informal mediation process so far. My previous experience with two of them led me to believe that they might not. Laveol and Gligan refused formal mediation on related disagreements. An admin has already recommended mediation to Laveol. I will go up to the arbitration level with this. They clearly are the ones avoiding constructive mediated dialog. Nostradamus1 ( talk) 18:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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So right now there are three issues raised in this section:
Xavexgoem ( talk) 00:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Good questions. At the disputed Historical kingdoms and empires section we currently have the following:
The following listed kingdoms and empires were at some time ruled by Turkic kings/khans/shahs or other dynasties. Mentioning of any particular entity in this place should not be read to mean that the entity as a whole was Turkic or even had more than a significant minority of Turkic subjects.
First of all I don't think the section implies historical "Turkic countries". Many states and dynasties were formed as a result of Turkic migrations out of Inner Asia. There are states that started as Turkic -that is they were created by Turkic peoples- but lost their Turkic character in time. There are also states who were created by non-Turkic peoples that gradually assumed a Turkic character, Golden Horde that was established by Genghizkhanate Mongols is an example for this. So in my view, this article is a place to summarize these states, empires, kaghanates, dynasties, etc. (The word kingdom sounds a little bit odd when user for Turkic states). We should comment whenever necessary. Maybe we can even have a table format that has a comments column next to each item.
I agree that a separate article for Turkic dynasties would be useful. However, even in this article it is hard to separate dynasties from states. If I can give a few examples. We have the Seljuk Turks who moved from what is today Kazakhstan to Khorasan (Eastern Iran) and established the Great Seljuk Empire. The majority of the population was Iranian. The creators of the empire were Turkic. In time the empire collapsed and the rulers were absorbed into the majority population. Similarly the Ottomans -from the same Oghuz Turkic stock as the Seljuks- moved from Khurasan to the west into Anatolia to form an empire. There's is a pattern of state formation. Sometimes rulers were assimilated into the subject population and sometimes the existing local population was gradually Turkified in time. Anatolia is an example.
I also agree that we should give proper attribution when there is no scholarly consensus. Bulgars is an example.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 03:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just checking for activity... Xavexgoem ( talk) 11:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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← Given the wealth of information concerning this topic, and the amount of knowledge each editor has, might it be best to turn the list into an an article - or a hybrid, rather? Could make for an interesting GA :-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 19:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the news are bad. user:07fan is back reverting my recent changes again. This user refuses any discussion. I am left with no choice but refer him to the admins if he repeats it one more time.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 03:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
My proposal is to delete " List of Turkic states and empires" as well as "List of Iranic..." altogether. These pages serve no encyclopedic purpose, and can be categorized as ultra-nationalistic "honor lists" detached from geo-political realities and facts of history. What is after all a "Turkic empire", when some of the dynasties Nostradamus1 is trying to add to this list were either Bulgarian or Iranian dynasties who ruled in the name of Bulgaria and Iran, not in the name of Turks or Turkey, and referred to themselves as Iranians or Bulgarians. The main problem here is that such irredentist lists try to connect unrelated dynasties based on racialist notions, or at best linguistic similarities. These types of lists are not needed, just as we don't need a "List of Mongoloid states" or "List of Germanic states" and....-- 07fan ( talk) 22:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. My proposal to delete both the Turkic and Iranic lists is in the interest of preserving the encyclopedic value of Wikipedia. Also, where are these Slavic, Germanic, Celtic "list of empires and dynasties" you speak of? As for Kara-Khitai, I don't think anyone here has an issue with you removing entries like that, the main concern is about adding disputed entries of Bulgarian and Iranian dynasties, and labeling them "Turkic" based on obscure outdated racialist notions. -- 07fan ( talk) 00:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This should give us half a dozen items for the list. Shall we proceed in the article's discussion page?-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 02:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)According to Saunders, J.J, "Whatever his real or fancied claims to Mongol descent, the great Timur was a Turk in race and spirit; the Mamluks of Egypt were commonly the offspring of Turkish Kipchak slaves; the Golden Horde of Russia grew progressively turcicized, as did the Khanate of Chagatai, and in the sixteenth century the three mightiest thrones of Islam (the Ottoman Empire, the Safavid of Persia, and the Great Moghul of India) were filled by families of Turkish speech and origin. Almost all branches of the Turkish race were by then Muslims, and the more civilized of them had become strongly impregnated by Persian culture. Although a Persian National State did not arise till after the fall of the Safavid dynasty, Persian art and literature captivated the Ottomans and the Moghuls, and the Arabs, whose political independence survived only in the deserts of Arabia, were depressed to the level of a poor third in the scale of Islamic nations." (Saunders, J.J., The History of the Mongol Conquests, 1971, p.177, Raurlegde & Oaul Ltd.)
Saunders, J.J is an obscure source with too much emphasis on race (an outdated notion), I can also go cherry-picking for sources, and claim that Ottomans were actually Iranian and add them to the List of Iranic states (Bernard Lewis , who is the most respected authority on Ottoman/Islamic history, calls the Ottomans " an Iranian dynasty" [8]). So I still stand by my proposal to delete both of these lists. But otherwise, I am against any inclusion of Bulgarian and Iranian dynasties on the Tukic list, unless they're clearly designated as Turko-Persian (which is the case now) or simply as Iranian dynasties, which is the case of Nader or Safavids who were Iranian and ruled Iran, in the name of Iranians. -- 07fan ( talk) 21:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
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Article | List of Turkic states and empires |
Status | closed |
Request date | 18:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC) |
Requesting party | Unknown |
Mediator(s) | Mm40 & Xavexgoem |
Comment | will remain on talk, but closing as unresolved. |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases| List of Turkic states and empires]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance| List of Turkic states and empires]]
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I am requesting mediation for especially the Historical kingdoms and empires section of the article. There are a number of items that need to be added to the list. I also request that the sub-sections Turkic States in Eastern Europe and Turco-Mongol and Turkic Persianate be eliminated. This is an artificial grouping. The article does not have a subsection titled Turkic States in Inner Asia, for instance. While the word Turko-Mongol is a commonly used term by historians the word Turkic Persianate appears to be an Iranian invention (POV). The article should include states, dynasties, kingdoms, and empires established and/or ruled by Turkic rulers. Who are the involved parties?What's going on?There is a disagreement on the list of historical Turkic kingdoms, empires, states, and dynasties. This is the cause of an ongoing slow revert war. The involved users appear to be from countries whose territories were once inclued within some of the states in question or were ruled by Turkic dynasties. Laveol and Gligan did not accept my previous formal mediation request on Turks in Bulgaria. These users appear to be uncomfortable with classifying the Bulgars and the states Bulgars built as Turkic. This is probably because any emphasis on the Turkic roots of the Bulgars -who lent their name and contributed into the formation of the Slavic Bulgarian nation- goes against the current Bulgarian histography. 07fan appears to be Iranian who while preventing the inclusion of certain Turkic states is pushing for the inclusion of the word Persian in the article. This user is also insistant on using the encyclopedia Iranica as a reliable source to tell the world which historical states or dynasties were Turkic. What would you like to change about that?I would like to agree on the structure of the disputed section. The article is about the list of historical Turkic states. This requires taking into account the dynasties that either established or ruled these states. Therfore the relevant section title should also include the word dynasties. Also changing the list into a table format with a column for comments might be an improvement. |
Xav is available via
email. No matter what it is, it's fine by me. Privacy guaranteed!
2 June 2008 - Discussion will speed up somewhere in the afternoon, UTC. I'm unsure whether this should be discussed on the case page or the article talk page, and haven't had an opportunity to talk with Mm40 about the case (although he can jump in at any time without fear). Feel free to talk amongst yourself, keeping in mind the advise near the bottom of the page (section "Now wait..."). I remind everyone to keep a
cool head, and to take breathers every now and then. Anyway, I'm off to bed :-)
Xavexgoem (
talk) 06:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
3 June 2008 - some questions at the bottom, might do some refactoring. I ask that all participants please add this page to their watchlist, since mediation can be a little slow if folks forget it's there ;-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 03:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
11 June 2008 - I'm trying to move discussion to the article talk. This tends to work better for me as a mediator, and for the article and contributors themselves, who'd rather not want the article to languish during discussion. I do not believe this is how medcab (or wikis) work; the case page here is, to me, preamble, and the actual nuts and bolts happen where the project actually works: on the article. So I'm attempting a move there by placing this case sort-of on-hold until contributions happen on the article. Then discussions can happen about the merits of contributions... hopefully, the work done here so far is to discourage editors from discussing the merits of the contributor. When all is said and done, the only abstraction we are allowed as editors is that of editor, not nationality or religion or ideology. Before that abstraction (editor), we have a buncha folks typing furiously at keyboards, all of which generally have 104 keys and lights for numlock and capslock (maybe scroll-lock, but you'd think the keyboards would be cheaper if they'd get rid of that thing).
So: Please edit the article as you were, with respect to the agreement signed below. Anyone who is not a listed party can be briefed about the the aims of that agreement without having to sign it - assume good faith, as always :-)
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As an uninvolved admin, I have to say that Nostradamus1's conduct on this article and its talk page concerns me a great deal. He appears to have been uncivil at times, and has even used racial slurs against other editors. Here he says, " Therefore, entries by Ajami's citing Iranica in order to push Iranian bias and POV -so that the world recognizes them as somebodies- will not stand here." Ajam is a racist and derogatory term used by Arabs against Persians, and if I had seen that comment earlier I would've blocked him for it. Upon a further look at this dispute, Nostradamus1 does not appear to be willing or reasonable enough to resolve the conflict. I think that most users have a consensus here that Encyclopædia Iranica is a reliable source, but Nostradamus has been apparently dismissing it on personal and preferential grounds. So, in light of his disruptive behavior on this page, it looks like this "dispute" is in fact one disruptive editor reverting a page against the consensus of the other involved parties. Khoi khoi 23:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I can tell you as an Iranian that Ajam or Ajami is a racist term when used by a non-Iranian toward an Iranian, similar to how the "N" word is used. -- 07fan ( talk) 06:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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Mm40, another medcabalist, has notified everyone that the case has been opened. If you have questions, comments, complaints, rants, acceptance of mediation, rejection, whatever... here's the place to say so :-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 22:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I accept and thank you for accepting to mediate this case. -- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 13:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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I was not sure how to indicate I agree to the mediation so I created a section for my opinion on the subject. I do not think that a request for mediation was needed for this case. User:Nostradamus seems to be out of option and does not want to answer the questions we posted on the article talkpage. The fact is all the parties on the case excluding Nostradamus himself have the pretty distinct opinion he's a PanTurkic POV pusher. I wouldn't be that inclined to think so until I was convinced he used some nationalistic (PanTurkic to be precise) websites to back his ideas up. But that was some time ago. We repeatedly asked Nostradamus to give us a definition of what exactly a Tukic state is. All his sources mentioned that some of the rules of the Second Bulgarian empire were of partial Cuman origin. From that he somehow got to naming a Slavic empire (cause you'll never find any scholar calling it something else) a Turkic empire. Not only he ignored the word partial, but he ignored the fact that a ruler does not make a country. If this was so then Bulgaria didn't exist until 1945 cause its rulers were German princes. I now see that Gligan has got the exact same point, but I'll still keep my comment as well. As for the whole Iranian/Turkic theory about Bulgars. Neither me, nor Gligan, evidently, has anything against any of the two theories. The fact is Nostradamus is trying to impose that his view is the only right one. He dismisses all other points and represents only his POV. That violates at least two Wiki policies WP:NPOV and {{Wiki:NOR]] since he's neglecting a view that is far from fringe and making his own assumptions not allowing not only other contributors' opinion, but some scholars' opinion as well. That pretty much sums it up. I'll write again if something else occurs to me. -- Laveol T 21:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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I aim to nip this in the bud. You all know NPOV and civility, so I'm not going to put brackets around them. I want to see Source A, Source B, Source C, Argument A, Argument B, Argument C, from Editors A, B, and C respectively. Never do I (or anyone) want to hear Source A or Argument A is wrong because Editor A is Bulgarian/Turkish/Iranian or anything of that nature. We are Wikipedia editors; everything else is secondary to the functioning of the project, but is still very important to the individual and the growth of the project, and so we will respect that.
Sign agreement here:
The focus of this mediation will be main-space contributions, and the arguments for their inclusion/removal/revision. If anyone goes off the deep-end, I'll reel them back in. Xavexgoem ( talk) 02:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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I believe I've demonstrated my goodwill to discuss our disagreements by requesting this mediation. The three users in question have not accepted this informal mediation process so far. My previous experience with two of them led me to believe that they might not. Laveol and Gligan refused formal mediation on related disagreements. An admin has already recommended mediation to Laveol. I will go up to the arbitration level with this. They clearly are the ones avoiding constructive mediated dialog. Nostradamus1 ( talk) 18:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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So right now there are three issues raised in this section:
Xavexgoem ( talk) 00:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Good questions. At the disputed Historical kingdoms and empires section we currently have the following:
The following listed kingdoms and empires were at some time ruled by Turkic kings/khans/shahs or other dynasties. Mentioning of any particular entity in this place should not be read to mean that the entity as a whole was Turkic or even had more than a significant minority of Turkic subjects.
First of all I don't think the section implies historical "Turkic countries". Many states and dynasties were formed as a result of Turkic migrations out of Inner Asia. There are states that started as Turkic -that is they were created by Turkic peoples- but lost their Turkic character in time. There are also states who were created by non-Turkic peoples that gradually assumed a Turkic character, Golden Horde that was established by Genghizkhanate Mongols is an example for this. So in my view, this article is a place to summarize these states, empires, kaghanates, dynasties, etc. (The word kingdom sounds a little bit odd when user for Turkic states). We should comment whenever necessary. Maybe we can even have a table format that has a comments column next to each item.
I agree that a separate article for Turkic dynasties would be useful. However, even in this article it is hard to separate dynasties from states. If I can give a few examples. We have the Seljuk Turks who moved from what is today Kazakhstan to Khorasan (Eastern Iran) and established the Great Seljuk Empire. The majority of the population was Iranian. The creators of the empire were Turkic. In time the empire collapsed and the rulers were absorbed into the majority population. Similarly the Ottomans -from the same Oghuz Turkic stock as the Seljuks- moved from Khurasan to the west into Anatolia to form an empire. There's is a pattern of state formation. Sometimes rulers were assimilated into the subject population and sometimes the existing local population was gradually Turkified in time. Anatolia is an example.
I also agree that we should give proper attribution when there is no scholarly consensus. Bulgars is an example.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 03:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just checking for activity... Xavexgoem ( talk) 11:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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← Given the wealth of information concerning this topic, and the amount of knowledge each editor has, might it be best to turn the list into an an article - or a hybrid, rather? Could make for an interesting GA :-) Xavexgoem ( talk) 19:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the news are bad. user:07fan is back reverting my recent changes again. This user refuses any discussion. I am left with no choice but refer him to the admins if he repeats it one more time.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 03:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
My proposal is to delete " List of Turkic states and empires" as well as "List of Iranic..." altogether. These pages serve no encyclopedic purpose, and can be categorized as ultra-nationalistic "honor lists" detached from geo-political realities and facts of history. What is after all a "Turkic empire", when some of the dynasties Nostradamus1 is trying to add to this list were either Bulgarian or Iranian dynasties who ruled in the name of Bulgaria and Iran, not in the name of Turks or Turkey, and referred to themselves as Iranians or Bulgarians. The main problem here is that such irredentist lists try to connect unrelated dynasties based on racialist notions, or at best linguistic similarities. These types of lists are not needed, just as we don't need a "List of Mongoloid states" or "List of Germanic states" and....-- 07fan ( talk) 22:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. My proposal to delete both the Turkic and Iranic lists is in the interest of preserving the encyclopedic value of Wikipedia. Also, where are these Slavic, Germanic, Celtic "list of empires and dynasties" you speak of? As for Kara-Khitai, I don't think anyone here has an issue with you removing entries like that, the main concern is about adding disputed entries of Bulgarian and Iranian dynasties, and labeling them "Turkic" based on obscure outdated racialist notions. -- 07fan ( talk) 00:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This should give us half a dozen items for the list. Shall we proceed in the article's discussion page?-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 02:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)According to Saunders, J.J, "Whatever his real or fancied claims to Mongol descent, the great Timur was a Turk in race and spirit; the Mamluks of Egypt were commonly the offspring of Turkish Kipchak slaves; the Golden Horde of Russia grew progressively turcicized, as did the Khanate of Chagatai, and in the sixteenth century the three mightiest thrones of Islam (the Ottoman Empire, the Safavid of Persia, and the Great Moghul of India) were filled by families of Turkish speech and origin. Almost all branches of the Turkish race were by then Muslims, and the more civilized of them had become strongly impregnated by Persian culture. Although a Persian National State did not arise till after the fall of the Safavid dynasty, Persian art and literature captivated the Ottomans and the Moghuls, and the Arabs, whose political independence survived only in the deserts of Arabia, were depressed to the level of a poor third in the scale of Islamic nations." (Saunders, J.J., The History of the Mongol Conquests, 1971, p.177, Raurlegde & Oaul Ltd.)
Saunders, J.J is an obscure source with too much emphasis on race (an outdated notion), I can also go cherry-picking for sources, and claim that Ottomans were actually Iranian and add them to the List of Iranic states (Bernard Lewis , who is the most respected authority on Ottoman/Islamic history, calls the Ottomans " an Iranian dynasty" [8]). So I still stand by my proposal to delete both of these lists. But otherwise, I am against any inclusion of Bulgarian and Iranian dynasties on the Tukic list, unless they're clearly designated as Turko-Persian (which is the case now) or simply as Iranian dynasties, which is the case of Nader or Safavids who were Iranian and ruled Iran, in the name of Iranians. -- 07fan ( talk) 21:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)