| Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
|---|---|
 | |
| Article | Mary Ramsey Wood |
| Status | closed |
| Request date | Unknown |
| Requesting party | Unknown |
| Parties involved | Katr67, Aboutmovies Ryoung122 |
| Mediator(s) | Trusilver |
| Comment | Consensus reached and article changed to reflect. Case closed. |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases| Mary Ramsey Wood]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance| Mary Ramsey Wood]]
Request details
Who are the involved parties?
Katr67, Ryoung122, Aboutmovies
What's going on?
Ryoung122 discovered that an article written by Aboutmovies contained a dubious claim of longevity of the subject. Ryoung122, an expert on gerontology, altered the article to add information about the dubious claim. Despite testimony about the good faith of Aboutmovies and myself, Ryoung122 continually reverts edits that remove speculation and make the article more in line with wikipolicy, as I understand it. His reversions remove legitimate, uncontroversial form and style edits along with the disputed content. Ryoung122 has also characterized my and Aboutmovies' edits as some sort of defense of the dubious age claim, which we have both stated is not the case.
What would you like to change about that?
I would like an experienced third party to sort out the talk page discussion and see if we can't reach consensus.
Mediator notes
I have picked up this case and am currently reviewing the history. Trusilver 18:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Taking straw poll on composition of new draft for article. Trusilver 18:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Consensus has been reached, article has been modified to reflect agreed-upon changes and mediation case is closed. Trusilver 21:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Administrative notes
Discussion
I'm here in response to the request for informal mediation. I'm reviewing the information today and possibly tomorrow. After I have read the article and the entire talk history as well as relevant user talk page correspondance, I'm going to start reading the reference material to the subject. I hope to have enough information to start a discussion sometime tommorow.
I'm glad to be working with all of you and I hope that we can find a workable compromise to allow this article to reach consensus. I wish everyone a good day. Trusilver 22:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have reviewed the article and the talk pages. I have reviewed all of the relevant user talk page entries and the cited references. It is my position that all parties are acting in good faith even though you are in disagreement on the subject itself. There are many things with reputable citations are not factual, just as there are many things factual without reputable citation. However, per WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."
With that having been said, I have two questions that I would like you to answer. - One for Katr67 and Aboutmovies and one for Ryoung122. The question is the same: Ideally, what would you like to see added or taken away from this article?" Trusilver 02:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking on this case, Trusilver. I need to run now, but I'll respond to the question sometime today. You might drop a note on the other folks' talk pages--I'm not sure they are watching this this article right now.
Katr67 14:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would like at a minimum to have mos of the "age controversey" moved from the WP:LEAD to the section for that info. The lead as a summary should mention the age controversy, but the heavy lifting if you will needs to be in its section. Then regrading that section, as it is all original research and marked with "citation needed" tags, it needs to be pared down to a simple "the age of 120 is doubtful based on the odds of living that long as being 1 in X." Otherwise the info such as "double-life" is speculation. The sources of a Yahoo! dsicussion group do not meet WP:RS, and though the Census info could be introduced, it only shows what it shows, and User:Ryoung122 is introducing original research by "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" if that information is used. I personally doubt Wood lived to be 120, but that is what the reliable sources currently state, and until there is a reliable source saying otherwise, Wikipedia guidelines/policies do not allow for the introduction of the information. I have no problem with a mention of the statistical part as that can be cited, or mentioning that a Mary Wood was listed on the census in 1880 as age X, and in the 1860 at age X. But saying more than that becomes original research. Aboutmovies 15:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to see the article reverted back to the version I diffed above that adds back a clear encyclopedic lead with context and the most notable part about her being crowned the "Mother Queen" of Oregon (which is undisputed, whether or not she deserved it), and that also takes away the speculation about the motives of the people involved, which I agree doesn't belong in the lead paragraph, while keeping mention of the age controversy. Agree that we can add references to the census data (which may or may not "prove" she lied about her age so it should be clear that there is a person in the census with a similar name and family but until someone is able to examine and publish birth certificates etc., the information should not be taken as the final word) and a well-cited sentence about the statistical probability of her actually being 120 being very low. Also I think we should add a small italicized disclaimer to the "Oregon" section that says something to the effect that "The following dates reflect the assumed birthday of 1787 and may not be accurate". What should definitely be taken away and rewritten is the entire "Age Controversy" section and the part with Mr. Young using himself as a source, because his debunking the claim and then posting this information to a private Yahoo group is still original research, as it is self-published, even if it is now on a third party site. The speculation about the family myth should be taken away as well. Also, the section header "Age controversy" is misleading, because until a week or two ago, there was no controversy because her age hadn't been questioned. I'd suggest naming the rewritten section "Age discrepancy" or something like that. In the future, I would love to see a citation added from a third-party source such as a newspaper article that debunks the Ramsey Wood myth, or a paper about the longevity claim that has been published in a scholarly history journal or the like. Obviously neither of these exist yet, but they should. The debunking of a long-cherished myth is just as interesting as the myth itself. Katr67 16:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Here is an example of what I would like to see the article look like, with the above-stated additions and subtractions and a few other improvements in syntax, punctuation, etc. (note:I request that you please don't edit this as it's only a userfied temporary version) I can't think of another way to relay the woman's personal history that is neater than putting the disclaimers at the top of the sections. Otherwise, we would have to repeatedly say things like "Supposedly, she was married in 1804". That is the trickiest part of the article, I think, because it shouldn't appear that the dates of these events are "the truth" and yet they give something of a timeline of Wood's life. Katr67 19:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, I am going to wait until Ryoung answers the question so we can see where we stand before we move on. Trusilver 05:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings,
The fact of the matter is, the entire reason for this person being 'notable' on Wikipedia is her alleged age of '120'. Note that the age claim is based entirely on hearsay and not evidence; the articles that cite her age as such even say that the evidence to prove her age had been lost, but that the claim should be accepted based on the 'testimonial' fallacy. The NEWSPAPER articles were written in 1908. This is still a time with the likes of Harry Houdini and traveling circuses, and when audience members are told to believe something based simply on 'because I said so' or because an audience member 'randomly' picked tells everyone this is true. The concept of 'science' was not a big one for local news media coverage...or politicians. Like shaking hands or kissing a baby, an age 'blessing' from a politician might point to 'notability' but not 'verifiability.' Even if no evidence against the claim were turned up, an age of '120' is considered to have the odds of 10 billion to 1 to be true...which, given the Earth's population in 1908 (less than 2 billion) makes is more than likely that not a single person on Earth was that age at that time. Note it is also true that the current oldest verifiable person even in 2007 is Yone Minagawa of Japan...aged 114...and that only once has a person undisputably reached age 120 or greater... Jeanne Calment. Therefore, the article needs to be written in a HYPOTHETICAL format.
A hypothetical format involves some degree of 'suspension of disbelief.' If there is an article about a science fiction TV show, everyone knows the show is not real, but when it comes to age claims, the general public is still largely uneducated and may actually believe that such ages are not only possible, but likely...when all scientific evidence has pointed in the other direction.
Knowing this, I did a little research and located what I believe to be Mary Wood in the 1880 census...age '69' with a 44-year-old daughter. The match included several matching points: not only was it the correct state, county, and town, but this Mary Wood was born in Tennessee and her parents were from England. Further, her daughter's name matched. Conversely, there were no possible matches for a "Mary Wood" that was born anywhere near 1787. this contrasts decidedly with a case such as Delina Filkins, whose age was verified through 11 census matches, a family Bible entry, etc.
I have two issues here:
A. The article needs to be written in the hypothetical...such as "was believed at the time by some to be 120 years old." Even the 1908 articles indicate that not everyone in 1908 believed the claim, which was based on the alleged existence of a letter which had been lost.
B. The claim of 'original research' is not valid. Original research involves putting information on Wikipedia that is, regardless of truth or not, not verifiable from outside sources. Yet I have outside sources for this including both the census records (primary source) and my analysis of the census records and the case, which was posted at my webgroup here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/
I contend that such a source is NOT 'original research'. Since I am already the gerontology consultant for Guinness World Records and Guinness is generally regarded in the 'Western' media as the 'official arbiter' of longevity (Time Magazine said as much in 1997), it becomes difficult to argue that I am not a 'reliable' source. Further, a search of Yahoo...one of the four biggest web portals in the world...turns up the above group as the #1 return:
Web | Images | Video | Local | Shopping | more » Answers Audio Directory Jobs News All Search Services Preferences Advertising Programs Advanced Search
Search Results1 - 10 of about 8,490,000 for world ' s oldest people - 0.15 sec. (About this page)
Also try: world's oldest person, world's oldest people nursing home More... WEB RESULTS Worlds_Oldest_People : World's Oldest People ... and photographs regarding the world's oldest people (108+). Only proven cases ... The "world's oldest person" according to Guinness World Records and the ...health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People - 17k - Cached
It should be noted that not all groups or blogs are created equal. However, when a blog or other online source shows itself to be consistently reliable, and becomes something turned to by the general public, then it should be considered as a 'reliable source.' To not do so is akin to not allowing comments by Roger Federer (in a Wikipedia article about Roger Federer) that was posted on Roger Federer's web blog. If you can't believe #1, who can you believe?
Please note that there is a conflict here mainly because of an overlapping 'universe.' User AboutMovies seems to be primarily concerned with Oregon-related articles, and hence has little/no experience or interest in 'supercentenarians'. However, when he tagged the Mary Ramsey Wood article with the Category: supercentenarians tag, that pushed the article into the domain of another field. Making unproven/generally unacceptable assertions on the basis of 99-year-old local journalism does not constitute a complete picture for the Wikipedia reader. It would be akin to copying a story about UFO's and writing an article on the Roswell aliens as if such a thing were proven. In other words, the article must take a dispassionate, neutral point of view which asserts that some believed that this woman was '120' but which states that recent evidence suggests that she was, in fact, a mere '97' years old. Removing citations and then adding 'uncited' is not a fair way to resolve this issue. This would be like a passenger in a car saying they didn't have a traffic ticket because "I tore it up and threw it away." Sure, after you delete the citation, that leaves material uncited.
After all is said and done, it does appear this issue was finally dying down, and a general consensus was reached. However, it does appear that there is still a lack of agreement regarding the relative importance of the age issue. I note, for example, that part of what made this woman 'notable' was not just her final age but the assertion that she rode on horseback at age '66'. However, if 24 years younger, then she would have been only 42, and thus her 'feat' is much less notable. We need to remember that at the time these stories were written, tall tales (such as Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill) were popular. Claiming that an aged local rode the Oregon trail at age '66' fits that mold.
Another issue, however, involves assertions of 'original research' when in fact, an expert on the subject knows that issues such as 'namesaking' (a son taking the name of his father, pretending to be him or others confusing the two) or exaggerated claims tending to run in families ('her mother lived to be 110') tend to run in families, or the idea of 'age heaping' (ages tend to be rounded off to the nearest whole number...thus age '100' instead of '99' or even '120' instead of '119') are NOT original research, and can be found in writings that go back more than a century...in fact, predating this claim.
For examples:
http://www.demogr.mpg.de/books/odense/6/04.htm
Word Spy - age heapingage heaping (AYJ hee.ping) pp. In a survey result, the clumping of respondents' ages on certain values, particularly those ending in 0 and 5. ... www.wordspy.com/words/ageheaping.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
Analysis Ch2 ex9 Age Heaping ExampleRun a frequency to see the age heaping in the Bangladesh data set by doing the following:. 1. Open SPSS data base bdeshage.sav. 2. In the Data Editor, ... www.tulane.edu/~panda2/Analysis2/datclean/age_heaping.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
Chapter 5. ASSESSING THE QUALITY OF DSS DATA: International ...Thus, the shape of the pyramid helps to reveal irregularities, such as age shifting and age heaping, in the age–sex structure of the population. ... www.idrc.ca/en/ev-42997-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2855
Reputed centenarians in this country whose ages exceed a hundred by more than three or four years have no documentary or satisfactory evidence to offer. The oldest, of whose age there is little room for doubt, though the documentary proof is not complete, was Mrs. Emily Robins Talcott, of the age of 105 years and 4 months.
Please note that the above source, written in 1898, notes a correlation between documentation and age claims, and makes some ironic statements that would take quite some time to explain. For example, we do know that the age claimed in a census document is not always correct. However, like a rock thrown in a pond, the waves created as they radiate from the epicenter tend to become more distorted the further from the actual impact event they get. Conversely, the closer the ripples are to the center, the greater chance that they approximate the actual impact.
In the case of Mary Ramsey Wood, her age at any point much be viewed in the total context in which it was written. Most age exaggerations happen either because someone loses track of how old they are, of a person's great age becomes a source of local pride, and this leads to an even greater age claimed than reality. However, because documents written decades before the birth event are much closer to the beginning of life, and no one when aged '14' for example thinks that one day they would be '120' years old, checking for early-life documents is generally considered to be a reliable methodology, with late-life documents subject to a greater degree of skepticism unless corroborated by backup evidence.
In the Mary Wood case, so far very little documentation has been produced; the 1880 census being the most reliable. A possible 1860 census match (correct town, wrong age) could be attributed to the fact that women aged 30-60 often tend to 'undercount' their age...being young a source of vanity. It is only when a person becomes so old that it is no longer possible to claim to be young, that the result is reversed and claiming to be older than one really is becomes the vogue. Thus, we see Mary Wood aged '30' in 1860 (too young), '69' in 1880 (just right, given the daughter's age of '44') and '120' in 1908 (too old; 97 seems far more likely).
If anything in this case, there was a failure of communication, a certain bit of impetuosity involved. An 'expert' in Oregon wouldn't want to hear what an outside source has had to say. However, given that such an article crossed into the realm of asserting extreme longevity, and the primary purpose of Wikipedia is to present the best information available from a neutral viewpoint, it is necessary to ensure that both sides of the case are presented and that the reader can decide whom to believe. However, I already believe that such a position is a compromise. Claims to '1787' are based on hearsay printed in the news; the claim to '97' is based on documented evidence. One would expect that, if the story were true, at least one or two census matches between 1790 and 1900 (11 chances to be counted) would find an age that would support the claim to '1787'. Clearly, this is not the case. The burden of proof must be upon the claimant (if I claim to be the greatest boxer that ever lived, I'd better back it up in the ring). Sure, the tombstone states '1787'...but this would have been made around the time of her death, not the time of her birth, and thus only proves that it was claimed this woman was '120' at the time, not that she actually was. Stating that locals in Oregon believed this woman to be '120' and this led her being named the 'Queen Mother of Oregon' seems like a fair compromise. However, given that this woman's only claim to fame was her age and that that age is disputed at best, not true at worst, it seems that the mention of the age controversy needs to be at least mentioned in the intro and at the end (leaving the center for the hypothetical claim/bio about her).
Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- Greetings Trusilver, I was a little surprised to read the above comments from 'Aboutmovies.' Clearly, this person still has issues and these issues need to be resolved. They include:
- A. Use of 'reliable' sources: claiming that a 1908 local newspaper article, which explains in detail that no documentary evidence is available to prove this woman's age but that we should believe it because locals said so, is clearly out of line. There is a relative degree of reliability that varies: a scientfic journal citation is more valid than a newspaper article; among newspaper articles, something from the New York Times is considered more likely to be true than something from a local newspaper. Also, let's remember the yellow journalism controversies of Hearst and Co. in the time period...newspapers were often given to sensational stories. If I find an article in a century-old newspaper that claims that aliens exist, should we then say "we must accept this as fact unless we can disprove it." No, it is generally agreed by the majority that aliens are not proven to exist and that sitings, if any, must be written from a hypothetical standpoint...not starting from an 'it's true' position and then following with a teleological argument.
- In addition to her age, I find a problem with the following assertion:
- User:Ryoung122 is introducing original research by "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" if that information is used.
- If need be, I can 'synthesize' material elsewhere and then reference it back to here. The fact of the matter is, every article on Wikipedia involves a certain amount of 'synthesis.' That's what writing is. The Wiki policy was devised to leave out 'original-idea' assertions, not assertions previously made time and again. Sourcing is generally used when a statement made is controversial or might be contested by some.
- Finally, while it seems like too big a deal is being made here, the fact of the matter is...do any checking and you won't find a single source today that asserts that Mary Ramsey Wood's age of '120' is accepted by any mainstream publication. Ryoung122 05:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- I know I'm not party to this mediation, so I hope nobody is offended if I chime in. But I have to take issue with Robert Young's claim that "the entire reason for this person being 'notable' on Wikipedia is her alleged age of '120'." The following sentence (taken from the article), in my view, establishes her notability for the purposes of inclusion on WP beyond any reasonable doubt:
- In 1907 Wood was crowned as the “Queen Mother” of Oregon by former Oregon Governor George H. Williams and the president of the Oregon Pioneer Association Mr. J. D. Lee.
- Now, it's entirely possible that the 1907 crowning was based on false information, or political skulduggery. But if the crowning happened, it makes her notable. Perhaps she's notable for being 120 years old; perhaps she's notable for being the subject of a massive fraud. Either way, she's notable; either way, there's a story to be told.
- I also want to say that, apart from the "original research" considerations and whether or not the present discussion impacts the Wikipedia article, Robert Young's contribution to the study of Oregon history seems valuable to me. If the result of this discussion is that his research is not acceptable for inclusion on Wikipedia, I hope he does not take that as an indication that his work is not valued. I am personally impressed by anyone that shows this level of dedication to discovering the underlying truth behind received wisdom, even though some approaches to that sort of project are not acceptable in an encyclopedia.
- - Pete 10:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
After reading through this, I am greatly inclined to believe Ryoung's idea that the subject is an untrue yet fascinating little folk myth. I am less inclined to believe that he has, in fact, synthesized new information based off of published material to advance his position. I can find no place where he has used information out of context to try to push a position that isn't already present through alternative sources. I never thought I would be in a position before where I would be unsure of a yahoo group's suitability as a source, but this case is it. But at this point I don't think the source is needed to get where we are trying to go. So this is mostly irrelevant.
As far as the notability of the subject goes, while everyone seems to disagree with exactly what it is that makes her notable, I have heard nobody suggest that she is not notable. Personally, just the interesting grave stone that declares her age at death would be enough for me to support notability. So this too is mostly irrelevant.
What is not irrelevant is tone and NPOV. It's possible to state the claim plainly without passing a judgment on fact. I mean, we make mention of Methuselah's claim to be the oldest person in history despite the fact that he's mentioned in a single source which cannot be verified as fact. But let us remember that fact and verifiable content are two different things and Wikipedia relies on the latter.
At this point, I feel that the draft
here is a good start. It is NPOV and unlike the current revision it does not put undue weight to unverifiable content in the leading paragraph.
I would like to hear support or oppose statements on this revisions as well as what changes would need to be made to it to reach consensus. and remember that we are trying to reach a compromise on the situation. Trusilver 15:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support my draft, obviously, but I welcome suggestions for improvement. Comment: I agree that the controversy about using the Yahoo group as a source is now largely irrelevent since I found an alternate, free, accessible source for the 1880 census info (as cited in the draft). Katr67 16:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support: It makes it clear that the age is doubtful, but without dominating the article. It also is not delving into original research. Aboutmovies 16:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support: I have a few suggestions, which I'll note on the draft's talk page; but in general, I think this rewrite represents a very balanced presentation of all significant issues. <deleted my own irrelevant comments> - Pete 17:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- <Deleted my comments pertaining to Pete's> I'll be looking for your suggestions. Katr67 17:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, please. This informal mediation is to reach a compromise on this article only. Aside from his knowledge of the situation and credentials as they pertain to this subject, Robert Young's own article is irrelevant to this discussion. Trusilver 17:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Mostly support. I believe that Katr67's 'example' draft is a mostly-fair compromise, and personally I don't see what the remaining deal is. The facts of the matter are, it seems that this woman's alleged age was enough to gain attention of the governor at the time (even though it now appears to be little more than local boosterism). I personally could cite many examples of false/exaggerated claims supported by U.S. governors (for whom sending birthday letters to ' centenarians' is akin to kissing babies). Moreover, if one wanted to bother, the NY Times Index lists news articles on 'longevity' that appeared. Check out any volume...1911, 1973, it does not matter...and you'll find plenty of examples from around the U.S. and the globe. However, I agree simply linking to 'longevity claims', 'longevity myths' and myself is enough to give the reader more information. While the primary focus should be on the "Queen Mother" of Oregon moniker, we should remember that she gets the benefit of the doubt, being not simply very old but also a woman. For example, Walter Williams (soldier) claimed to be the 'last Confederate veteran' before his age claim was debunked by a NY Times reporter in 1959. (Not noted in THAT article, but more information: Mr. Williams did not even claim to be a Confederate soldier until he applied for a 'Confederate pension' in 1934 (during the depression) and changed his age several times, including 1846 and finally 1842). Everyone from the president of the U.S. on down rallied to Walter William's defense against an 'attack' from a 'Yankee reporter'. However, years later his named was quietly removed from the U.S. Dept of Veteran Affair's list of the 'last Confederate veteran.' When emotions calmed, people realized that he was 'only' 105, not 117, and neither was there any evidence that he served. Debunking his age diminished but did not remove his notability. This story is a similar event; to Oregon it may appear unique but these claims have occurred over and over and over again. The claim of the family Bible was 'destroyed in a fire' (and later evidence suggesting the claim is false) is very, very common (for example, Susie Brunson claimed 123 in 1994, yet her social security record listed her as 105 at death). The fact of the matter is, everything in this case fits previously set and recognized patterns that have been reported in material dating to the 1870's (beginning with "Human Longevity: Its Facts and Fictions" by William Thoms. However most of the material is still not online--this particular book was published in 1879). I would like to remind everyone that the Wiki policy for 'verifiability' allows the use of self-published material when it comes from a recognized expert. I think it is about time to move on and end this discussion, unless future controversy flares up. Ryoung122 09:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that we have reached a consensus, I have changed the article to the proposed draft and unless there are other issues, I'm going to close this mediation case. Thank you all for working together so well, and have a great week. Trusilver 21:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
| Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
|---|---|
|
| |
| Article | Mary Ramsey Wood |
| Status | closed |
| Request date | Unknown |
| Requesting party | Unknown |
| Parties involved | Katr67, Aboutmovies Ryoung122 |
| Mediator(s) | Trusilver |
| Comment | Consensus reached and article changed to reflect. Case closed. |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases| Mary Ramsey Wood]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance| Mary Ramsey Wood]]
Request details
Who are the involved parties?
Katr67, Ryoung122, Aboutmovies
What's going on?
Ryoung122 discovered that an article written by Aboutmovies contained a dubious claim of longevity of the subject. Ryoung122, an expert on gerontology, altered the article to add information about the dubious claim. Despite testimony about the good faith of Aboutmovies and myself, Ryoung122 continually reverts edits that remove speculation and make the article more in line with wikipolicy, as I understand it. His reversions remove legitimate, uncontroversial form and style edits along with the disputed content. Ryoung122 has also characterized my and Aboutmovies' edits as some sort of defense of the dubious age claim, which we have both stated is not the case.
What would you like to change about that?
I would like an experienced third party to sort out the talk page discussion and see if we can't reach consensus.
Mediator notes
I have picked up this case and am currently reviewing the history. Trusilver 18:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Taking straw poll on composition of new draft for article. Trusilver 18:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Consensus has been reached, article has been modified to reflect agreed-upon changes and mediation case is closed. Trusilver 21:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Administrative notes
Discussion
I'm here in response to the request for informal mediation. I'm reviewing the information today and possibly tomorrow. After I have read the article and the entire talk history as well as relevant user talk page correspondance, I'm going to start reading the reference material to the subject. I hope to have enough information to start a discussion sometime tommorow.
I'm glad to be working with all of you and I hope that we can find a workable compromise to allow this article to reach consensus. I wish everyone a good day. Trusilver 22:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have reviewed the article and the talk pages. I have reviewed all of the relevant user talk page entries and the cited references. It is my position that all parties are acting in good faith even though you are in disagreement on the subject itself. There are many things with reputable citations are not factual, just as there are many things factual without reputable citation. However, per WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."
With that having been said, I have two questions that I would like you to answer. - One for Katr67 and Aboutmovies and one for Ryoung122. The question is the same: Ideally, what would you like to see added or taken away from this article?" Trusilver 02:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking on this case, Trusilver. I need to run now, but I'll respond to the question sometime today. You might drop a note on the other folks' talk pages--I'm not sure they are watching this this article right now.
Katr67 14:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would like at a minimum to have mos of the "age controversey" moved from the WP:LEAD to the section for that info. The lead as a summary should mention the age controversy, but the heavy lifting if you will needs to be in its section. Then regrading that section, as it is all original research and marked with "citation needed" tags, it needs to be pared down to a simple "the age of 120 is doubtful based on the odds of living that long as being 1 in X." Otherwise the info such as "double-life" is speculation. The sources of a Yahoo! dsicussion group do not meet WP:RS, and though the Census info could be introduced, it only shows what it shows, and User:Ryoung122 is introducing original research by "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" if that information is used. I personally doubt Wood lived to be 120, but that is what the reliable sources currently state, and until there is a reliable source saying otherwise, Wikipedia guidelines/policies do not allow for the introduction of the information. I have no problem with a mention of the statistical part as that can be cited, or mentioning that a Mary Wood was listed on the census in 1880 as age X, and in the 1860 at age X. But saying more than that becomes original research. Aboutmovies 15:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to see the article reverted back to the version I diffed above that adds back a clear encyclopedic lead with context and the most notable part about her being crowned the "Mother Queen" of Oregon (which is undisputed, whether or not she deserved it), and that also takes away the speculation about the motives of the people involved, which I agree doesn't belong in the lead paragraph, while keeping mention of the age controversy. Agree that we can add references to the census data (which may or may not "prove" she lied about her age so it should be clear that there is a person in the census with a similar name and family but until someone is able to examine and publish birth certificates etc., the information should not be taken as the final word) and a well-cited sentence about the statistical probability of her actually being 120 being very low. Also I think we should add a small italicized disclaimer to the "Oregon" section that says something to the effect that "The following dates reflect the assumed birthday of 1787 and may not be accurate". What should definitely be taken away and rewritten is the entire "Age Controversy" section and the part with Mr. Young using himself as a source, because his debunking the claim and then posting this information to a private Yahoo group is still original research, as it is self-published, even if it is now on a third party site. The speculation about the family myth should be taken away as well. Also, the section header "Age controversy" is misleading, because until a week or two ago, there was no controversy because her age hadn't been questioned. I'd suggest naming the rewritten section "Age discrepancy" or something like that. In the future, I would love to see a citation added from a third-party source such as a newspaper article that debunks the Ramsey Wood myth, or a paper about the longevity claim that has been published in a scholarly history journal or the like. Obviously neither of these exist yet, but they should. The debunking of a long-cherished myth is just as interesting as the myth itself. Katr67 16:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Here is an example of what I would like to see the article look like, with the above-stated additions and subtractions and a few other improvements in syntax, punctuation, etc. (note:I request that you please don't edit this as it's only a userfied temporary version) I can't think of another way to relay the woman's personal history that is neater than putting the disclaimers at the top of the sections. Otherwise, we would have to repeatedly say things like "Supposedly, she was married in 1804". That is the trickiest part of the article, I think, because it shouldn't appear that the dates of these events are "the truth" and yet they give something of a timeline of Wood's life. Katr67 19:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, I am going to wait until Ryoung answers the question so we can see where we stand before we move on. Trusilver 05:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings,
The fact of the matter is, the entire reason for this person being 'notable' on Wikipedia is her alleged age of '120'. Note that the age claim is based entirely on hearsay and not evidence; the articles that cite her age as such even say that the evidence to prove her age had been lost, but that the claim should be accepted based on the 'testimonial' fallacy. The NEWSPAPER articles were written in 1908. This is still a time with the likes of Harry Houdini and traveling circuses, and when audience members are told to believe something based simply on 'because I said so' or because an audience member 'randomly' picked tells everyone this is true. The concept of 'science' was not a big one for local news media coverage...or politicians. Like shaking hands or kissing a baby, an age 'blessing' from a politician might point to 'notability' but not 'verifiability.' Even if no evidence against the claim were turned up, an age of '120' is considered to have the odds of 10 billion to 1 to be true...which, given the Earth's population in 1908 (less than 2 billion) makes is more than likely that not a single person on Earth was that age at that time. Note it is also true that the current oldest verifiable person even in 2007 is Yone Minagawa of Japan...aged 114...and that only once has a person undisputably reached age 120 or greater... Jeanne Calment. Therefore, the article needs to be written in a HYPOTHETICAL format.
A hypothetical format involves some degree of 'suspension of disbelief.' If there is an article about a science fiction TV show, everyone knows the show is not real, but when it comes to age claims, the general public is still largely uneducated and may actually believe that such ages are not only possible, but likely...when all scientific evidence has pointed in the other direction.
Knowing this, I did a little research and located what I believe to be Mary Wood in the 1880 census...age '69' with a 44-year-old daughter. The match included several matching points: not only was it the correct state, county, and town, but this Mary Wood was born in Tennessee and her parents were from England. Further, her daughter's name matched. Conversely, there were no possible matches for a "Mary Wood" that was born anywhere near 1787. this contrasts decidedly with a case such as Delina Filkins, whose age was verified through 11 census matches, a family Bible entry, etc.
I have two issues here:
A. The article needs to be written in the hypothetical...such as "was believed at the time by some to be 120 years old." Even the 1908 articles indicate that not everyone in 1908 believed the claim, which was based on the alleged existence of a letter which had been lost.
B. The claim of 'original research' is not valid. Original research involves putting information on Wikipedia that is, regardless of truth or not, not verifiable from outside sources. Yet I have outside sources for this including both the census records (primary source) and my analysis of the census records and the case, which was posted at my webgroup here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/
I contend that such a source is NOT 'original research'. Since I am already the gerontology consultant for Guinness World Records and Guinness is generally regarded in the 'Western' media as the 'official arbiter' of longevity (Time Magazine said as much in 1997), it becomes difficult to argue that I am not a 'reliable' source. Further, a search of Yahoo...one of the four biggest web portals in the world...turns up the above group as the #1 return:
Web | Images | Video | Local | Shopping | more » Answers Audio Directory Jobs News All Search Services Preferences Advertising Programs Advanced Search
Search Results1 - 10 of about 8,490,000 for world ' s oldest people - 0.15 sec. (About this page)
Also try: world's oldest person, world's oldest people nursing home More... WEB RESULTS Worlds_Oldest_People : World's Oldest People ... and photographs regarding the world's oldest people (108+). Only proven cases ... The "world's oldest person" according to Guinness World Records and the ...health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People - 17k - Cached
It should be noted that not all groups or blogs are created equal. However, when a blog or other online source shows itself to be consistently reliable, and becomes something turned to by the general public, then it should be considered as a 'reliable source.' To not do so is akin to not allowing comments by Roger Federer (in a Wikipedia article about Roger Federer) that was posted on Roger Federer's web blog. If you can't believe #1, who can you believe?
Please note that there is a conflict here mainly because of an overlapping 'universe.' User AboutMovies seems to be primarily concerned with Oregon-related articles, and hence has little/no experience or interest in 'supercentenarians'. However, when he tagged the Mary Ramsey Wood article with the Category: supercentenarians tag, that pushed the article into the domain of another field. Making unproven/generally unacceptable assertions on the basis of 99-year-old local journalism does not constitute a complete picture for the Wikipedia reader. It would be akin to copying a story about UFO's and writing an article on the Roswell aliens as if such a thing were proven. In other words, the article must take a dispassionate, neutral point of view which asserts that some believed that this woman was '120' but which states that recent evidence suggests that she was, in fact, a mere '97' years old. Removing citations and then adding 'uncited' is not a fair way to resolve this issue. This would be like a passenger in a car saying they didn't have a traffic ticket because "I tore it up and threw it away." Sure, after you delete the citation, that leaves material uncited.
After all is said and done, it does appear this issue was finally dying down, and a general consensus was reached. However, it does appear that there is still a lack of agreement regarding the relative importance of the age issue. I note, for example, that part of what made this woman 'notable' was not just her final age but the assertion that she rode on horseback at age '66'. However, if 24 years younger, then she would have been only 42, and thus her 'feat' is much less notable. We need to remember that at the time these stories were written, tall tales (such as Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill) were popular. Claiming that an aged local rode the Oregon trail at age '66' fits that mold.
Another issue, however, involves assertions of 'original research' when in fact, an expert on the subject knows that issues such as 'namesaking' (a son taking the name of his father, pretending to be him or others confusing the two) or exaggerated claims tending to run in families ('her mother lived to be 110') tend to run in families, or the idea of 'age heaping' (ages tend to be rounded off to the nearest whole number...thus age '100' instead of '99' or even '120' instead of '119') are NOT original research, and can be found in writings that go back more than a century...in fact, predating this claim.
For examples:
http://www.demogr.mpg.de/books/odense/6/04.htm
Word Spy - age heapingage heaping (AYJ hee.ping) pp. In a survey result, the clumping of respondents' ages on certain values, particularly those ending in 0 and 5. ... www.wordspy.com/words/ageheaping.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
Analysis Ch2 ex9 Age Heaping ExampleRun a frequency to see the age heaping in the Bangladesh data set by doing the following:. 1. Open SPSS data base bdeshage.sav. 2. In the Data Editor, ... www.tulane.edu/~panda2/Analysis2/datclean/age_heaping.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
Chapter 5. ASSESSING THE QUALITY OF DSS DATA: International ...Thus, the shape of the pyramid helps to reveal irregularities, such as age shifting and age heaping, in the age–sex structure of the population. ... www.idrc.ca/en/ev-42997-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2855
Reputed centenarians in this country whose ages exceed a hundred by more than three or four years have no documentary or satisfactory evidence to offer. The oldest, of whose age there is little room for doubt, though the documentary proof is not complete, was Mrs. Emily Robins Talcott, of the age of 105 years and 4 months.
Please note that the above source, written in 1898, notes a correlation between documentation and age claims, and makes some ironic statements that would take quite some time to explain. For example, we do know that the age claimed in a census document is not always correct. However, like a rock thrown in a pond, the waves created as they radiate from the epicenter tend to become more distorted the further from the actual impact event they get. Conversely, the closer the ripples are to the center, the greater chance that they approximate the actual impact.
In the case of Mary Ramsey Wood, her age at any point much be viewed in the total context in which it was written. Most age exaggerations happen either because someone loses track of how old they are, of a person's great age becomes a source of local pride, and this leads to an even greater age claimed than reality. However, because documents written decades before the birth event are much closer to the beginning of life, and no one when aged '14' for example thinks that one day they would be '120' years old, checking for early-life documents is generally considered to be a reliable methodology, with late-life documents subject to a greater degree of skepticism unless corroborated by backup evidence.
In the Mary Wood case, so far very little documentation has been produced; the 1880 census being the most reliable. A possible 1860 census match (correct town, wrong age) could be attributed to the fact that women aged 30-60 often tend to 'undercount' their age...being young a source of vanity. It is only when a person becomes so old that it is no longer possible to claim to be young, that the result is reversed and claiming to be older than one really is becomes the vogue. Thus, we see Mary Wood aged '30' in 1860 (too young), '69' in 1880 (just right, given the daughter's age of '44') and '120' in 1908 (too old; 97 seems far more likely).
If anything in this case, there was a failure of communication, a certain bit of impetuosity involved. An 'expert' in Oregon wouldn't want to hear what an outside source has had to say. However, given that such an article crossed into the realm of asserting extreme longevity, and the primary purpose of Wikipedia is to present the best information available from a neutral viewpoint, it is necessary to ensure that both sides of the case are presented and that the reader can decide whom to believe. However, I already believe that such a position is a compromise. Claims to '1787' are based on hearsay printed in the news; the claim to '97' is based on documented evidence. One would expect that, if the story were true, at least one or two census matches between 1790 and 1900 (11 chances to be counted) would find an age that would support the claim to '1787'. Clearly, this is not the case. The burden of proof must be upon the claimant (if I claim to be the greatest boxer that ever lived, I'd better back it up in the ring). Sure, the tombstone states '1787'...but this would have been made around the time of her death, not the time of her birth, and thus only proves that it was claimed this woman was '120' at the time, not that she actually was. Stating that locals in Oregon believed this woman to be '120' and this led her being named the 'Queen Mother of Oregon' seems like a fair compromise. However, given that this woman's only claim to fame was her age and that that age is disputed at best, not true at worst, it seems that the mention of the age controversy needs to be at least mentioned in the intro and at the end (leaving the center for the hypothetical claim/bio about her).
Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- Greetings Trusilver, I was a little surprised to read the above comments from 'Aboutmovies.' Clearly, this person still has issues and these issues need to be resolved. They include:
- A. Use of 'reliable' sources: claiming that a 1908 local newspaper article, which explains in detail that no documentary evidence is available to prove this woman's age but that we should believe it because locals said so, is clearly out of line. There is a relative degree of reliability that varies: a scientfic journal citation is more valid than a newspaper article; among newspaper articles, something from the New York Times is considered more likely to be true than something from a local newspaper. Also, let's remember the yellow journalism controversies of Hearst and Co. in the time period...newspapers were often given to sensational stories. If I find an article in a century-old newspaper that claims that aliens exist, should we then say "we must accept this as fact unless we can disprove it." No, it is generally agreed by the majority that aliens are not proven to exist and that sitings, if any, must be written from a hypothetical standpoint...not starting from an 'it's true' position and then following with a teleological argument.
- In addition to her age, I find a problem with the following assertion:
- User:Ryoung122 is introducing original research by "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" if that information is used.
- If need be, I can 'synthesize' material elsewhere and then reference it back to here. The fact of the matter is, every article on Wikipedia involves a certain amount of 'synthesis.' That's what writing is. The Wiki policy was devised to leave out 'original-idea' assertions, not assertions previously made time and again. Sourcing is generally used when a statement made is controversial or might be contested by some.
- Finally, while it seems like too big a deal is being made here, the fact of the matter is...do any checking and you won't find a single source today that asserts that Mary Ramsey Wood's age of '120' is accepted by any mainstream publication. Ryoung122 05:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- I know I'm not party to this mediation, so I hope nobody is offended if I chime in. But I have to take issue with Robert Young's claim that "the entire reason for this person being 'notable' on Wikipedia is her alleged age of '120'." The following sentence (taken from the article), in my view, establishes her notability for the purposes of inclusion on WP beyond any reasonable doubt:
- In 1907 Wood was crowned as the “Queen Mother” of Oregon by former Oregon Governor George H. Williams and the president of the Oregon Pioneer Association Mr. J. D. Lee.
- Now, it's entirely possible that the 1907 crowning was based on false information, or political skulduggery. But if the crowning happened, it makes her notable. Perhaps she's notable for being 120 years old; perhaps she's notable for being the subject of a massive fraud. Either way, she's notable; either way, there's a story to be told.
- I also want to say that, apart from the "original research" considerations and whether or not the present discussion impacts the Wikipedia article, Robert Young's contribution to the study of Oregon history seems valuable to me. If the result of this discussion is that his research is not acceptable for inclusion on Wikipedia, I hope he does not take that as an indication that his work is not valued. I am personally impressed by anyone that shows this level of dedication to discovering the underlying truth behind received wisdom, even though some approaches to that sort of project are not acceptable in an encyclopedia.
- - Pete 10:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
After reading through this, I am greatly inclined to believe Ryoung's idea that the subject is an untrue yet fascinating little folk myth. I am less inclined to believe that he has, in fact, synthesized new information based off of published material to advance his position. I can find no place where he has used information out of context to try to push a position that isn't already present through alternative sources. I never thought I would be in a position before where I would be unsure of a yahoo group's suitability as a source, but this case is it. But at this point I don't think the source is needed to get where we are trying to go. So this is mostly irrelevant.
As far as the notability of the subject goes, while everyone seems to disagree with exactly what it is that makes her notable, I have heard nobody suggest that she is not notable. Personally, just the interesting grave stone that declares her age at death would be enough for me to support notability. So this too is mostly irrelevant.
What is not irrelevant is tone and NPOV. It's possible to state the claim plainly without passing a judgment on fact. I mean, we make mention of Methuselah's claim to be the oldest person in history despite the fact that he's mentioned in a single source which cannot be verified as fact. But let us remember that fact and verifiable content are two different things and Wikipedia relies on the latter.
At this point, I feel that the draft
here is a good start. It is NPOV and unlike the current revision it does not put undue weight to unverifiable content in the leading paragraph.
I would like to hear support or oppose statements on this revisions as well as what changes would need to be made to it to reach consensus. and remember that we are trying to reach a compromise on the situation. Trusilver 15:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support my draft, obviously, but I welcome suggestions for improvement. Comment: I agree that the controversy about using the Yahoo group as a source is now largely irrelevent since I found an alternate, free, accessible source for the 1880 census info (as cited in the draft). Katr67 16:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support: It makes it clear that the age is doubtful, but without dominating the article. It also is not delving into original research. Aboutmovies 16:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support: I have a few suggestions, which I'll note on the draft's talk page; but in general, I think this rewrite represents a very balanced presentation of all significant issues. <deleted my own irrelevant comments> - Pete 17:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- <Deleted my comments pertaining to Pete's> I'll be looking for your suggestions. Katr67 17:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, please. This informal mediation is to reach a compromise on this article only. Aside from his knowledge of the situation and credentials as they pertain to this subject, Robert Young's own article is irrelevant to this discussion. Trusilver 17:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Mostly support. I believe that Katr67's 'example' draft is a mostly-fair compromise, and personally I don't see what the remaining deal is. The facts of the matter are, it seems that this woman's alleged age was enough to gain attention of the governor at the time (even though it now appears to be little more than local boosterism). I personally could cite many examples of false/exaggerated claims supported by U.S. governors (for whom sending birthday letters to ' centenarians' is akin to kissing babies). Moreover, if one wanted to bother, the NY Times Index lists news articles on 'longevity' that appeared. Check out any volume...1911, 1973, it does not matter...and you'll find plenty of examples from around the U.S. and the globe. However, I agree simply linking to 'longevity claims', 'longevity myths' and myself is enough to give the reader more information. While the primary focus should be on the "Queen Mother" of Oregon moniker, we should remember that she gets the benefit of the doubt, being not simply very old but also a woman. For example, Walter Williams (soldier) claimed to be the 'last Confederate veteran' before his age claim was debunked by a NY Times reporter in 1959. (Not noted in THAT article, but more information: Mr. Williams did not even claim to be a Confederate soldier until he applied for a 'Confederate pension' in 1934 (during the depression) and changed his age several times, including 1846 and finally 1842). Everyone from the president of the U.S. on down rallied to Walter William's defense against an 'attack' from a 'Yankee reporter'. However, years later his named was quietly removed from the U.S. Dept of Veteran Affair's list of the 'last Confederate veteran.' When emotions calmed, people realized that he was 'only' 105, not 117, and neither was there any evidence that he served. Debunking his age diminished but did not remove his notability. This story is a similar event; to Oregon it may appear unique but these claims have occurred over and over and over again. The claim of the family Bible was 'destroyed in a fire' (and later evidence suggesting the claim is false) is very, very common (for example, Susie Brunson claimed 123 in 1994, yet her social security record listed her as 105 at death). The fact of the matter is, everything in this case fits previously set and recognized patterns that have been reported in material dating to the 1870's (beginning with "Human Longevity: Its Facts and Fictions" by William Thoms. However most of the material is still not online--this particular book was published in 1879). I would like to remind everyone that the Wiki policy for 'verifiability' allows the use of self-published material when it comes from a recognized expert. I think it is about time to move on and end this discussion, unless future controversy flares up. Ryoung122 09:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that we have reached a consensus, I have changed the article to the proposed draft and unless there are other issues, I'm going to close this mediation case. Thank you all for working together so well, and have a great week. Trusilver 21:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)