I'm not part of the cabal either. I've been involved in the discussion at the IHEU page that is one part of what led to this mediation request. At around the time that this request went up Rohirok put notices up on a few pages looking for assistance with the problems he felt Dacoutts was causing. Yesterday, Rohirok deleted those notices, and left messages that the dispute was mostly resolved. It would not be surprising if he also intended to withdraw this mediation request.
Above, under "What's going on?", Rohirok states that Dacoutts's actions seemed to be "based on the assumption that the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) functions as a sort of papacy for all Humanists, and all real Humanists follow everything the IHEU says". When I became involved in this my concern was similar, that Dacoutts was imposing certain conventions on some Wikipedia articles vastly out of proportion to what could be supported from usual uses of the word 'humanism', and indeed possibly out of proportion to practice at the IHEU itself. I don't believe that is what is currently happening, and my impression is that Rohirok does not either. If there are issues that do need to be resolved by this mediation process, then changing the name from 'The Humanist papacy' to something that better reflects current difficulties may be a good idea. -- Plover 11:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not wish for this mediation case to be closed yet. I anticipate there will be other disagreements, and I believe there will be a need for other voices to come in and moderate things. As these are relatively obscure pages, I do not believe there are that many people that watch them or activly edit them. Since Dacoutts and I seem to be at odds so often over POV, relevance, facts and verifiability, and since the two of us had been the ones most active in editing (often reverting each others' changes and failing to come to agreement in discussion), the level-headedness of others not so passionate as the two of us is still greatly needed. There are still some edits that Dacoutts has restored that I believe to be inappropriate, but have not had the time to address or re-address.
I deleted my request for help on the non-humanism talk pages for three reasons: first, things had cooled down somewhat, and the biggest problems seemed to have been resolved; second, I suspected that those who watch those talk pages might not appreciate accusations or arguments being posted there that were not directly related to their respective articles; and finally, I wished to retract my highly emotional comments that suggested that Dacoutts was either incredibly dense or a sock puppet. Rohirok 17:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Dacoutts has objected to calling this mediation case "The Humanist papacy." I chose that name half tongue-in-cheek. I also chose it half seriously, since Dacoutts was insisting at the time that his or her various IHEU citations proved that "usage of lower case humanism with the adjective 'secular' is incorrect" and that my edits and reversions were "deeply offensive, and repressive of the official worldview that secular humanism is correctly known as Humanism (with a capital H and no adjective)." If it will help things move forward, please rename this case to something less charged. Rohirok 05:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it will help to rename this case. This sort of humour was ill-considered and offensive. -- Couttsie 23:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Our mediator has asked if we could come up with some set of statements to which we could both agree and apply to the various articles about which I was originally concerned. I don't know if that's possible, but here are some things on which Dacoutts and I might agree that I think would help:
I hope this helps. Rohirok 05:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
From IHEU talk:
From Cabal: "A cabal is a number of persons united in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community by intrigue. " There has been no intrigue here. Prior to my contributions the IHEU article was a mere shell. There was no Amsterdam Declaration article. The worldwide usage of the Happy Human symbol was unclear. As Plover noted, few people had heard of the IHEU. Yet the fact is that the IHEU is the world body for Humanism (belief system). It is recognised as such by the UN and UNESCO. This includes secular humanism. There is no other world body for Humanism. Now, Wikipedia reflects nothing more than the facts regarding the IHEU etc. Rather than being condemned for such action, I should be thanked.
Rohirok and I have agreed suitable wording on the normal usage of capitalization within the IHEU, and by IHEU leaders (including former IHEU presidents), and IHEU documents such as the Amsterdam Declaration 2002. We have also agreed that the IHEU recommends usage of capitalization of the word H, but that such usage is by no means compulsory.
It is offensive to argue that the IHEU is the Humanist papacy, given the lack of compulsion in IHEU recommendations.
-- Couttsie 00:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
From IHEU talk page. Plover:If it would help matters (i.e. if both of you want me to), I could try to construct a neutral statement that you both might agree to. I'm willing to give it a try --Couttsie 02:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
My good faith and integrity have been repeatedly attacked. See last few sections of IHEU talk page. There has been an apology, and some ambivalent comments made, but it is still not crystal clear as to whether or not both Plover and Rohirok (and others) accept that I was acting in good faith, being totally honest, was not part of some "cabal" or the "Humanist papacy", and was not "evangelising".. Prior to my contributions, the world religion page did not even acknowledge that Humanism existed, yet worldwide figures are between 3 and 5 million. It is a matter of marginalisation, and possible religious discrimination, if there is any attempt to suppress these facts. I believe Rohirok, and Wikipedia editors generally, were ignorant of these facts. Now, whether they like the facts or not, at least Wikipedia is (finally) accurate.
Given the complete lack of my supposed "co-conspirators" (a cabal requires the effrots of more than one person acting alone), I want a full and unequivocal statement to the effect:
"We agree that Couttsie (aka Dacoutts) has, in fact, at all times acted in good faith and with unimpeachable integrity. Any suggestion that Couttsie was been evangelising, part of any "cabal", or promoting "a Humanist papacy" are unequivolically withdrawn by the signatories below. With respect to articles pertaining to Humanism, and the IHEU, Wikipedia is now more accurate than at any time previously. In the main, this is thanks to the efforts of Couttsie."
-- Couttsie 01:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
See also my Talk page, which includes the following comment from me to Rohirok: "However, I very much appreciate the way you signed off "Yours in Humanism (capital H, no adjective)." which is clearly conciliatory. Please don't rush through (yet) another hasty move (you asked for week on your last "vote", but I'm told two weeks is normal). Please desist from destroying Humanist (belief system) related articles. Yours in Humanism (capital H, no adjective). --Couttsie 02:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)"
-- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
This is from the IHEU website: "Based in London, IHEU is an international NGO with Special Consultative Status with the UN (New York, Geneva, Vienna), General Consultative Status at UNICEF (New York) and the Council of Europe (Strasbourg), and maintains operational relations with UNESCO (Paris)."
That's the UN, UNICEF and UNESCO. Can anyone please point me to any other "world body" for humanism (or Humanism) with such obvious status as the IHEU? -- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how it helps to make passing references to organisations without then following up and seeing if they even claim to represent Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
And I still don't see any need to discuss it as they do not claim to represent Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I still see these "contributions" and disruptive. By all means add them in, but start your own section rather than confuse and disrupt my contributions. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
That's the UN, UNICEF and UNESCO. Can anyone please point me to any other "world body" for humanism (or Humanism) with such obvious status as the IHEU? -- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I do -- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
There are around 100 organisations worldwide in about 30 nations in the IHEU, with a membership somewhere between 3 and 5 million. I have asked Rohirok to provide figures of secular humanists, but nobody backed me up. As Rohirok himself/herself has stated, the secular humanism numbers are included in the Humanist numbers. How wonder how people worldwide regard themselves as members of the Humanist Committee on Human Rights? -- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
This is answered directly on the IHEU page as it stands. Again, this seems needless and idle chit chat. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
If I was a Christian and my particular denomination had a national or international body, and people tried to say that that body was not "the" national body or "the" international body - purely on the grounds of your own argument above - then I would consider my rights to have been suppressed.
I thought I had clarified, but I seriously doubt this has much to do with this Cabal and I don't appreciate most of your comments. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
You have no evidence, and only speculation, to back your argument.
In fact, I'm sure there are many Christians who would love to see such baseless and speculative arguments win the day (but only in the case of suppressing non-thesitic beliefs such as Humanism)
This is not what comes across. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
That's because I think you are getting off the point. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
So now I'm unreliable? Tell me, what have you contributed to any of the Humanism (belief system) articles (IHEU, all the member organisations, Happy Humans etc). What did you know of Humanism (belief system) before my contributions? -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The IHEU stands alone as the world body for Humanism (it is internationally recognised as such) and I agree with Rohirok that that includes those who prefer to call themselves secular humanists (and other terms). However, the IHEU is not the world body for humanism in the broader sense, as they reject the supernatural and all forms of theism. See the IHEU minimum statement.
So, if you are a humanist in the broad sense, but believe in some sort of god, then you are not a Humanist (or a secular humanist) and have no need to object to the fact that the IHEU does not represent your views. If there is, in fact, a world body for theistic forms of humanism that that's great (though I am unaware of such a body). However, any mention of a theistic world body for humanism belongs elsewhere, and not in the Humanism (belief system) article, the IHEU article etc.
-- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC) -- Couttsie 01:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
(Addressed to Couttsie, in regards to his complaint about my use of the word evangelising. However, I request others to comment if they feel my account to be in error.)
( Talk:International_Humanist_and_Ethical_Union has been refactored. To see all the details discussed here requires this archival version. [Added 14:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)])
As far as I am aware, you currently have one complaint about me for which you are seeking redress: that I made statements using the word "evangelism" in a fashion you did not like. I have never accused you of evangelism. I described some actions of yours ( this set of edits to secular humanism are an example) that could be interpreted as an attempt to supplant a general definition of humanism (in this case secular humanism) with the codifed IHEU form of Humanism, and thus could – absent other considerations – appear to be evangelism. The following three excerpts ( source) show my statement, your response, and my followup:
P: If it ever becomes true that most people who call themselves humanists – not just people who belong to IHEU or other humanist organizations, but anyone who simply thinks of themselves as humanist – adopts the IHEU definition, then it might be reasonable to treat the IHEU stance as the primary definition. Until then, 'humanism' is a general term with multiple meanings, 'Humanism' is one specific, codified form of humanism, and any attempt to supplant humanism with Humanism is evangelising, rather than creating a neutral description of how most people actually use the term humanism.
|
In other words, I offered a description of evangelism which you agreed with. You then gave a statement as to why the description no longer applied, and I replied that there was, in that case, no real problem. My followup is not, perhaps, the most full-throated endorsement, but then, I wasn't aware that it was going to be vetted for sufficient enthusiasm.
In another part of your response, you stated "I am not evangelising if I am asking the IHEU itself to clarify the position, provide us with information, then allow a week to discuss the information and vote." The closest thing to a direct response to this sentence that appears in my followup is the phrase: "[g]etting information from the IHEU sounds like a good idea". Not explicitly an agreement, but certainly not an indication that I dispute your statement either. I do, in fact, agree with your statement, but I should also note that it refers to a different set circumstances than those which I was questioning.
The only way I can conceive of my statement as constituting any kind of accusation is if I had a continuing belief that you were trying "supplant humanism with Humanism". At the time I wrote the comment, I had no specific belief, only speculations based on the evidence I had seen at the time; after your response, I had no such belief period, and I'm not aware of anything I've written since that could be interpreted that way. Furthermore, in another part of that followup, I noted that I had written the first comment under the mistaken assumption that "these humanism-related edits were your first contributions to Wikipedia", which is why I thought it might have been necessary to explain why your actions might be viewed as evangelism by other Wikipedians. My followup also includes an acknowledgement of this mistake and an apology for my tone.
Later I made this statement: "It it also true that I showed up on the scene fairly late – most likely after most of my concerns were already resolved – and should probably have posted my comments on Talk:Humanism rather than here, so I apologize for any confusion that may have caused." My chief concern from the beginning was only with the actual philosophy articles, not with the articles concerning Humanist (or humanist) organizations. As the response of yours I quoted above indicates, the issues relating to what conventions were to be used on the various philosophy pages had largely been addressed by the time I showed up. Hence, my apology for possibly causing confusion. After my concerns were settled, my intent in continuing to participate in the conversation was actually to try and defuse tensions between you and Rohirok – not, apparently, one of my better ideas.
In short, I have made no accusation of bad faith. Disagreement with your actions or arguments, even strong disagreement, is not an accusation of bad faith. An explanation of why I might view certain actions as evangelism is an argument as to why I think those actions should be ceased, not an accusation of bad faith. I don't know how to make this any clearer. I'm sorry if you were misled by anything I may have said, but as far as I can tell, your suspicions of me in this matter far more resemble an accusation of bad faith by you against me, than anything I have said can be considered such an accusation by me against you. My request is that you simply desist in your allegations.
Of course, I see this from my point of view. So, I invite anyone else participating here to view the record of my statements at Talk:International Humanist and Ethical Union (archived version) and inform me if they find my account here to be in error.
(Note: If you respond, please do not intersperse your comments in what I have written – it is "customary, polite, and less confusing to refrain from [that practice]" (as Rohirok elegantly puts it in an edit summary unrelated to disputes here).)
--
Plover
04:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I thank everyone who has commented thus far. I agree that there is no reason to rush everything through. I am only here to help the two of you reach some sort of an agreement so that you can work together rather than at odds with one another. There are going to have to be some compromises, obviously. I will continue to solicit comments from others as well as yourselves.
If anyone wants to deal with this through my email, feel free to do so. Chandler75 19:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I think RhWentworth has made some excellent points, and both Couttis and Rohrik seem to be zeroing in on what the sticking points are. I am especially interested in the kindred organization page on IHEU. If this were a page about Catholics, it might be tempting to say that the world body for Catholics is the Vatican led by the Pope - and perhaps the Wikipedia page says that, I'd have to check. But I think there would be an objection because many baptized Catholics, due to the church's stand on abortion, birth control, the place of women, and gay rights, have broken with the Pope and do not consider him their leader. However, they still consider themselves Catholics.
I would suggest that making a statement about IHEU and failing to acknowledge the other organizations doesn't seem that it would be a particularly neutral statement.
At the moment, I think the following: Both Rohrik and Couttis need to get rid of the negative statements on the various talk pages and start fresh. You need to together hammer out a statement you can both live with that draws in various descriptions and organizations with appropriate explanations and let go of whatever went on before. I think that Rohrik should acknowledge the work Couttis has done and his enthusiasm for the work, and I think Couttis needs to acknowledge that he needs to compromise, and that as he and Rohrik have both been working on this, that the contributions of both are valuable and important. And I think you both should apologize for past angry statements directed toward one another.
|' As such, I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article would be about them as well as being about those affiliated with IHEU. But I gather Dacoutts understood the scope of the Humanism (lifestance) article to be limited strictly to describing the lifestance of those affiliated with IHEU. Perhaps that difference in understanding about the intent of the Humanism (lifestance) article was the root cause of the dispute about the status of the IHEU? |}
There's no rush about closing this mediation, but I will need to know if you're making progress. If you're not, this will have to go into dispute, which is much more formal. Let me know your thoughts. And again, to everyone, thank you for such excellent comments. Chandler75 03:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you plover for cleaning out the rancor from the talk pages. Thank you to Dacoutts for doing the same on other pages. I made additional deletions of certain bitter accusations between Dacoutts and myself, and hope that these meet with the approval of all concerned. I am sorry for accusing you of acting in bad faith, Dacoutts. I appreciate your earnestness and hard work in trying to make the Humanism-related pages better. I am sorry for calling this mediation case "The Humanist papacy." It was a poor choice that was not at all conducive to resolving the bitterness that was between us. Thank you Rhwentworth for your input on these matters, and for your work on the articles as well. Thank you Chandler75 for taking this mediation case and doing an excellent job.
As Dacoutts mentioned earlier, I am taking a break from Wikipedia, and I would like to see this resolved. While there are certain small disagreements over facts and wording, the major factual issues have been resolved, and more importantly, I believe the emotional issues have been adequately addressed by deletions from the talk pages of charged language, accusations and insults. I move that this mediation case be closed. Rohirok 01:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The whole point about the kindred organisations is that they will have (or can have) their own articles. If they exist, let's see what claims they make to represent any form of Humanism or humanism. If they don't, by all means write them up. What they do not do is represent my Humanism (belief system).
Humanism (belief system) is that which is - by and large - defined by the IHEU and endorsed by member organisations.
I have no objection to anyone creating other pages for other forms of Humanism, or humanism. Then we can link these Humanism pages together subsequently.
I have very strong objections to the suggestion that any other body represents my beliefs, or the beliefs of member organisations of the IHEU. I have several emails from the IHEU indicating that they are satisfied with the content of the pages as I have written them - the only error (which I am about to correct) is that Julian Huxley should not be listed under presidents (though he gave the first presidential speech).
The IHEU is the world body for Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for interspersing; I wasn't aware that the preferred convention was to avoid that. Though, I notice that you just interspersed comments into the moderator's section, so I'm not sure I understand what the expectation is about whether interspersing comments in other people's sections is acceptable or not.
Hmmm. I'm not sure how you would know if someone is getting "off the point" if you don't understand what they've said. I think that, even if you don't see the point of what someone is saying, it would still be helpful to carefully read and respond to what is said, if you want to see the dispute resolved. Otherwise it is very difficult for a meeting of the minds to occur, and such a meeting of the minds is what ends disputes.
As it happens, I am a member of an organization affiliated with IHEU, and so am reasonably well informed about the topic.
I think the confusion that spawned this mediation mostly relates to differences in logic rather than differences in how informed people are.
Ok, this clarifies where you are coming from. If I understand this right:
Dacoutts, would you agree with that statement?
The thing that had led me to think that the Humanism (lifestance) article wasn't by definition just related to IHEU and member organizations was on the humanism page where it says
I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article was about all people who embrace humanism as a complete lifestance. The material about humanist organizations "kindred" to IHEU indicated to me that there are a fair number of people who embrace humanism as a "complete lifestance" who are not affiliated with IHEU. As such, I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article would be about them as well as being about those affiliated with IHEU. But I gather Dacoutts understood the scope of the Humanism (lifestance) article to be limited strictly to describing the lifestance of those affiliated with IHEU. Perhaps that difference in understanding about the intent of the Humanism (lifestance) article was the root cause of the dispute about the status of the IHEU?
I think that the current situation where Humanism is taken to be by definition limited to the scope of the IHEU is likely to be somewhat confusing to other readers, as it was to me. However, really fixing the problem might require editing more subtle than what the current quality of communications between editors would allow. Unless someone can successfully propose an agreeable fix, maybe we'll need to live with this flaw for now. - Rhwentworth 09:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I see. Thanks. In that case I guess I have a mixed reaction to Couttsie's complaint.
Dacoutts (Couttsie), on the one hand, I think I misstepped by not being more careful with regard to my comments on "Consultative Status" with the UN. I didn't realize quite how adversarial the conversational environment was. I think in a less adversarial environment those comments would have been, if not that important, also not that disruptive. However, given the current emotional environment it would have been better had I not introduced those remarks. So, to the extent that those remarks ended up being unintentionally more distracting than I anticipated, I apologize to you for introducing them.
On the other hand, Dacoutts, my other remarks that you dismissed as "needless and idle chit chat" or with "I seriously doubt this has much to do with this Cabal and I don't appreciate most of your comments" were sincere attempts to go to the very heart of what there is disagreement about. That you did not "get" them is unfortunate. But your responses seemed to me to be part of an unhealthy pattern of people expressing animosity towards one another rather than trying to figure out why we don't "get" each other's positions.
It is easy for any of us to fall into animosity, as a result of frustration. But it's not helpful—and is counter to (my) Humanist values. :-) If I have in any way slipped into expressing hostility, I apologize for that. To me, many of your reponses have appeared to be more about expressing hostility than about responding to content. So, I would appreciate a similar apology from you.
As far as how to structure conversation on these pages, it sounds like the least confusing way to do this might be for us each to:
- Rhwentworth 20:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Per Plover's suggestion, my comments that were here have been moved to
Talk:Humanism (lifestance). -
Rhwentworth
05:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not part of the cabal either. I've been involved in the discussion at the IHEU page that is one part of what led to this mediation request. At around the time that this request went up Rohirok put notices up on a few pages looking for assistance with the problems he felt Dacoutts was causing. Yesterday, Rohirok deleted those notices, and left messages that the dispute was mostly resolved. It would not be surprising if he also intended to withdraw this mediation request.
Above, under "What's going on?", Rohirok states that Dacoutts's actions seemed to be "based on the assumption that the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) functions as a sort of papacy for all Humanists, and all real Humanists follow everything the IHEU says". When I became involved in this my concern was similar, that Dacoutts was imposing certain conventions on some Wikipedia articles vastly out of proportion to what could be supported from usual uses of the word 'humanism', and indeed possibly out of proportion to practice at the IHEU itself. I don't believe that is what is currently happening, and my impression is that Rohirok does not either. If there are issues that do need to be resolved by this mediation process, then changing the name from 'The Humanist papacy' to something that better reflects current difficulties may be a good idea. -- Plover 11:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not wish for this mediation case to be closed yet. I anticipate there will be other disagreements, and I believe there will be a need for other voices to come in and moderate things. As these are relatively obscure pages, I do not believe there are that many people that watch them or activly edit them. Since Dacoutts and I seem to be at odds so often over POV, relevance, facts and verifiability, and since the two of us had been the ones most active in editing (often reverting each others' changes and failing to come to agreement in discussion), the level-headedness of others not so passionate as the two of us is still greatly needed. There are still some edits that Dacoutts has restored that I believe to be inappropriate, but have not had the time to address or re-address.
I deleted my request for help on the non-humanism talk pages for three reasons: first, things had cooled down somewhat, and the biggest problems seemed to have been resolved; second, I suspected that those who watch those talk pages might not appreciate accusations or arguments being posted there that were not directly related to their respective articles; and finally, I wished to retract my highly emotional comments that suggested that Dacoutts was either incredibly dense or a sock puppet. Rohirok 17:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Dacoutts has objected to calling this mediation case "The Humanist papacy." I chose that name half tongue-in-cheek. I also chose it half seriously, since Dacoutts was insisting at the time that his or her various IHEU citations proved that "usage of lower case humanism with the adjective 'secular' is incorrect" and that my edits and reversions were "deeply offensive, and repressive of the official worldview that secular humanism is correctly known as Humanism (with a capital H and no adjective)." If it will help things move forward, please rename this case to something less charged. Rohirok 05:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it will help to rename this case. This sort of humour was ill-considered and offensive. -- Couttsie 23:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Our mediator has asked if we could come up with some set of statements to which we could both agree and apply to the various articles about which I was originally concerned. I don't know if that's possible, but here are some things on which Dacoutts and I might agree that I think would help:
I hope this helps. Rohirok 05:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
From IHEU talk:
From Cabal: "A cabal is a number of persons united in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community by intrigue. " There has been no intrigue here. Prior to my contributions the IHEU article was a mere shell. There was no Amsterdam Declaration article. The worldwide usage of the Happy Human symbol was unclear. As Plover noted, few people had heard of the IHEU. Yet the fact is that the IHEU is the world body for Humanism (belief system). It is recognised as such by the UN and UNESCO. This includes secular humanism. There is no other world body for Humanism. Now, Wikipedia reflects nothing more than the facts regarding the IHEU etc. Rather than being condemned for such action, I should be thanked.
Rohirok and I have agreed suitable wording on the normal usage of capitalization within the IHEU, and by IHEU leaders (including former IHEU presidents), and IHEU documents such as the Amsterdam Declaration 2002. We have also agreed that the IHEU recommends usage of capitalization of the word H, but that such usage is by no means compulsory.
It is offensive to argue that the IHEU is the Humanist papacy, given the lack of compulsion in IHEU recommendations.
-- Couttsie 00:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
From IHEU talk page. Plover:If it would help matters (i.e. if both of you want me to), I could try to construct a neutral statement that you both might agree to. I'm willing to give it a try --Couttsie 02:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
My good faith and integrity have been repeatedly attacked. See last few sections of IHEU talk page. There has been an apology, and some ambivalent comments made, but it is still not crystal clear as to whether or not both Plover and Rohirok (and others) accept that I was acting in good faith, being totally honest, was not part of some "cabal" or the "Humanist papacy", and was not "evangelising".. Prior to my contributions, the world religion page did not even acknowledge that Humanism existed, yet worldwide figures are between 3 and 5 million. It is a matter of marginalisation, and possible religious discrimination, if there is any attempt to suppress these facts. I believe Rohirok, and Wikipedia editors generally, were ignorant of these facts. Now, whether they like the facts or not, at least Wikipedia is (finally) accurate.
Given the complete lack of my supposed "co-conspirators" (a cabal requires the effrots of more than one person acting alone), I want a full and unequivocal statement to the effect:
"We agree that Couttsie (aka Dacoutts) has, in fact, at all times acted in good faith and with unimpeachable integrity. Any suggestion that Couttsie was been evangelising, part of any "cabal", or promoting "a Humanist papacy" are unequivolically withdrawn by the signatories below. With respect to articles pertaining to Humanism, and the IHEU, Wikipedia is now more accurate than at any time previously. In the main, this is thanks to the efforts of Couttsie."
-- Couttsie 01:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
See also my Talk page, which includes the following comment from me to Rohirok: "However, I very much appreciate the way you signed off "Yours in Humanism (capital H, no adjective)." which is clearly conciliatory. Please don't rush through (yet) another hasty move (you asked for week on your last "vote", but I'm told two weeks is normal). Please desist from destroying Humanist (belief system) related articles. Yours in Humanism (capital H, no adjective). --Couttsie 02:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)"
-- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
This is from the IHEU website: "Based in London, IHEU is an international NGO with Special Consultative Status with the UN (New York, Geneva, Vienna), General Consultative Status at UNICEF (New York) and the Council of Europe (Strasbourg), and maintains operational relations with UNESCO (Paris)."
That's the UN, UNICEF and UNESCO. Can anyone please point me to any other "world body" for humanism (or Humanism) with such obvious status as the IHEU? -- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how it helps to make passing references to organisations without then following up and seeing if they even claim to represent Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
And I still don't see any need to discuss it as they do not claim to represent Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I still see these "contributions" and disruptive. By all means add them in, but start your own section rather than confuse and disrupt my contributions. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
That's the UN, UNICEF and UNESCO. Can anyone please point me to any other "world body" for humanism (or Humanism) with such obvious status as the IHEU? -- Couttsie 01:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I do -- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
There are around 100 organisations worldwide in about 30 nations in the IHEU, with a membership somewhere between 3 and 5 million. I have asked Rohirok to provide figures of secular humanists, but nobody backed me up. As Rohirok himself/herself has stated, the secular humanism numbers are included in the Humanist numbers. How wonder how people worldwide regard themselves as members of the Humanist Committee on Human Rights? -- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
This is answered directly on the IHEU page as it stands. Again, this seems needless and idle chit chat. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
If I was a Christian and my particular denomination had a national or international body, and people tried to say that that body was not "the" national body or "the" international body - purely on the grounds of your own argument above - then I would consider my rights to have been suppressed.
I thought I had clarified, but I seriously doubt this has much to do with this Cabal and I don't appreciate most of your comments. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
You have no evidence, and only speculation, to back your argument.
In fact, I'm sure there are many Christians who would love to see such baseless and speculative arguments win the day (but only in the case of suppressing non-thesitic beliefs such as Humanism)
This is not what comes across. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
That's because I think you are getting off the point. -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
So now I'm unreliable? Tell me, what have you contributed to any of the Humanism (belief system) articles (IHEU, all the member organisations, Happy Humans etc). What did you know of Humanism (belief system) before my contributions? -- Couttsie 05:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The IHEU stands alone as the world body for Humanism (it is internationally recognised as such) and I agree with Rohirok that that includes those who prefer to call themselves secular humanists (and other terms). However, the IHEU is not the world body for humanism in the broader sense, as they reject the supernatural and all forms of theism. See the IHEU minimum statement.
So, if you are a humanist in the broad sense, but believe in some sort of god, then you are not a Humanist (or a secular humanist) and have no need to object to the fact that the IHEU does not represent your views. If there is, in fact, a world body for theistic forms of humanism that that's great (though I am unaware of such a body). However, any mention of a theistic world body for humanism belongs elsewhere, and not in the Humanism (belief system) article, the IHEU article etc.
-- Couttsie 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC) -- Couttsie 01:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
(Addressed to Couttsie, in regards to his complaint about my use of the word evangelising. However, I request others to comment if they feel my account to be in error.)
( Talk:International_Humanist_and_Ethical_Union has been refactored. To see all the details discussed here requires this archival version. [Added 14:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)])
As far as I am aware, you currently have one complaint about me for which you are seeking redress: that I made statements using the word "evangelism" in a fashion you did not like. I have never accused you of evangelism. I described some actions of yours ( this set of edits to secular humanism are an example) that could be interpreted as an attempt to supplant a general definition of humanism (in this case secular humanism) with the codifed IHEU form of Humanism, and thus could – absent other considerations – appear to be evangelism. The following three excerpts ( source) show my statement, your response, and my followup:
P: If it ever becomes true that most people who call themselves humanists – not just people who belong to IHEU or other humanist organizations, but anyone who simply thinks of themselves as humanist – adopts the IHEU definition, then it might be reasonable to treat the IHEU stance as the primary definition. Until then, 'humanism' is a general term with multiple meanings, 'Humanism' is one specific, codified form of humanism, and any attempt to supplant humanism with Humanism is evangelising, rather than creating a neutral description of how most people actually use the term humanism.
|
In other words, I offered a description of evangelism which you agreed with. You then gave a statement as to why the description no longer applied, and I replied that there was, in that case, no real problem. My followup is not, perhaps, the most full-throated endorsement, but then, I wasn't aware that it was going to be vetted for sufficient enthusiasm.
In another part of your response, you stated "I am not evangelising if I am asking the IHEU itself to clarify the position, provide us with information, then allow a week to discuss the information and vote." The closest thing to a direct response to this sentence that appears in my followup is the phrase: "[g]etting information from the IHEU sounds like a good idea". Not explicitly an agreement, but certainly not an indication that I dispute your statement either. I do, in fact, agree with your statement, but I should also note that it refers to a different set circumstances than those which I was questioning.
The only way I can conceive of my statement as constituting any kind of accusation is if I had a continuing belief that you were trying "supplant humanism with Humanism". At the time I wrote the comment, I had no specific belief, only speculations based on the evidence I had seen at the time; after your response, I had no such belief period, and I'm not aware of anything I've written since that could be interpreted that way. Furthermore, in another part of that followup, I noted that I had written the first comment under the mistaken assumption that "these humanism-related edits were your first contributions to Wikipedia", which is why I thought it might have been necessary to explain why your actions might be viewed as evangelism by other Wikipedians. My followup also includes an acknowledgement of this mistake and an apology for my tone.
Later I made this statement: "It it also true that I showed up on the scene fairly late – most likely after most of my concerns were already resolved – and should probably have posted my comments on Talk:Humanism rather than here, so I apologize for any confusion that may have caused." My chief concern from the beginning was only with the actual philosophy articles, not with the articles concerning Humanist (or humanist) organizations. As the response of yours I quoted above indicates, the issues relating to what conventions were to be used on the various philosophy pages had largely been addressed by the time I showed up. Hence, my apology for possibly causing confusion. After my concerns were settled, my intent in continuing to participate in the conversation was actually to try and defuse tensions between you and Rohirok – not, apparently, one of my better ideas.
In short, I have made no accusation of bad faith. Disagreement with your actions or arguments, even strong disagreement, is not an accusation of bad faith. An explanation of why I might view certain actions as evangelism is an argument as to why I think those actions should be ceased, not an accusation of bad faith. I don't know how to make this any clearer. I'm sorry if you were misled by anything I may have said, but as far as I can tell, your suspicions of me in this matter far more resemble an accusation of bad faith by you against me, than anything I have said can be considered such an accusation by me against you. My request is that you simply desist in your allegations.
Of course, I see this from my point of view. So, I invite anyone else participating here to view the record of my statements at Talk:International Humanist and Ethical Union (archived version) and inform me if they find my account here to be in error.
(Note: If you respond, please do not intersperse your comments in what I have written – it is "customary, polite, and less confusing to refrain from [that practice]" (as Rohirok elegantly puts it in an edit summary unrelated to disputes here).)
--
Plover
04:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I thank everyone who has commented thus far. I agree that there is no reason to rush everything through. I am only here to help the two of you reach some sort of an agreement so that you can work together rather than at odds with one another. There are going to have to be some compromises, obviously. I will continue to solicit comments from others as well as yourselves.
If anyone wants to deal with this through my email, feel free to do so. Chandler75 19:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I think RhWentworth has made some excellent points, and both Couttis and Rohrik seem to be zeroing in on what the sticking points are. I am especially interested in the kindred organization page on IHEU. If this were a page about Catholics, it might be tempting to say that the world body for Catholics is the Vatican led by the Pope - and perhaps the Wikipedia page says that, I'd have to check. But I think there would be an objection because many baptized Catholics, due to the church's stand on abortion, birth control, the place of women, and gay rights, have broken with the Pope and do not consider him their leader. However, they still consider themselves Catholics.
I would suggest that making a statement about IHEU and failing to acknowledge the other organizations doesn't seem that it would be a particularly neutral statement.
At the moment, I think the following: Both Rohrik and Couttis need to get rid of the negative statements on the various talk pages and start fresh. You need to together hammer out a statement you can both live with that draws in various descriptions and organizations with appropriate explanations and let go of whatever went on before. I think that Rohrik should acknowledge the work Couttis has done and his enthusiasm for the work, and I think Couttis needs to acknowledge that he needs to compromise, and that as he and Rohrik have both been working on this, that the contributions of both are valuable and important. And I think you both should apologize for past angry statements directed toward one another.
|' As such, I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article would be about them as well as being about those affiliated with IHEU. But I gather Dacoutts understood the scope of the Humanism (lifestance) article to be limited strictly to describing the lifestance of those affiliated with IHEU. Perhaps that difference in understanding about the intent of the Humanism (lifestance) article was the root cause of the dispute about the status of the IHEU? |}
There's no rush about closing this mediation, but I will need to know if you're making progress. If you're not, this will have to go into dispute, which is much more formal. Let me know your thoughts. And again, to everyone, thank you for such excellent comments. Chandler75 03:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you plover for cleaning out the rancor from the talk pages. Thank you to Dacoutts for doing the same on other pages. I made additional deletions of certain bitter accusations between Dacoutts and myself, and hope that these meet with the approval of all concerned. I am sorry for accusing you of acting in bad faith, Dacoutts. I appreciate your earnestness and hard work in trying to make the Humanism-related pages better. I am sorry for calling this mediation case "The Humanist papacy." It was a poor choice that was not at all conducive to resolving the bitterness that was between us. Thank you Rhwentworth for your input on these matters, and for your work on the articles as well. Thank you Chandler75 for taking this mediation case and doing an excellent job.
As Dacoutts mentioned earlier, I am taking a break from Wikipedia, and I would like to see this resolved. While there are certain small disagreements over facts and wording, the major factual issues have been resolved, and more importantly, I believe the emotional issues have been adequately addressed by deletions from the talk pages of charged language, accusations and insults. I move that this mediation case be closed. Rohirok 01:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The whole point about the kindred organisations is that they will have (or can have) their own articles. If they exist, let's see what claims they make to represent any form of Humanism or humanism. If they don't, by all means write them up. What they do not do is represent my Humanism (belief system).
Humanism (belief system) is that which is - by and large - defined by the IHEU and endorsed by member organisations.
I have no objection to anyone creating other pages for other forms of Humanism, or humanism. Then we can link these Humanism pages together subsequently.
I have very strong objections to the suggestion that any other body represents my beliefs, or the beliefs of member organisations of the IHEU. I have several emails from the IHEU indicating that they are satisfied with the content of the pages as I have written them - the only error (which I am about to correct) is that Julian Huxley should not be listed under presidents (though he gave the first presidential speech).
The IHEU is the world body for Humanism (belief system). -- Couttsie 05:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for interspersing; I wasn't aware that the preferred convention was to avoid that. Though, I notice that you just interspersed comments into the moderator's section, so I'm not sure I understand what the expectation is about whether interspersing comments in other people's sections is acceptable or not.
Hmmm. I'm not sure how you would know if someone is getting "off the point" if you don't understand what they've said. I think that, even if you don't see the point of what someone is saying, it would still be helpful to carefully read and respond to what is said, if you want to see the dispute resolved. Otherwise it is very difficult for a meeting of the minds to occur, and such a meeting of the minds is what ends disputes.
As it happens, I am a member of an organization affiliated with IHEU, and so am reasonably well informed about the topic.
I think the confusion that spawned this mediation mostly relates to differences in logic rather than differences in how informed people are.
Ok, this clarifies where you are coming from. If I understand this right:
Dacoutts, would you agree with that statement?
The thing that had led me to think that the Humanism (lifestance) article wasn't by definition just related to IHEU and member organizations was on the humanism page where it says
I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article was about all people who embrace humanism as a complete lifestance. The material about humanist organizations "kindred" to IHEU indicated to me that there are a fair number of people who embrace humanism as a "complete lifestance" who are not affiliated with IHEU. As such, I thought this meant that the Humanism (lifestance) article would be about them as well as being about those affiliated with IHEU. But I gather Dacoutts understood the scope of the Humanism (lifestance) article to be limited strictly to describing the lifestance of those affiliated with IHEU. Perhaps that difference in understanding about the intent of the Humanism (lifestance) article was the root cause of the dispute about the status of the IHEU?
I think that the current situation where Humanism is taken to be by definition limited to the scope of the IHEU is likely to be somewhat confusing to other readers, as it was to me. However, really fixing the problem might require editing more subtle than what the current quality of communications between editors would allow. Unless someone can successfully propose an agreeable fix, maybe we'll need to live with this flaw for now. - Rhwentworth 09:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I see. Thanks. In that case I guess I have a mixed reaction to Couttsie's complaint.
Dacoutts (Couttsie), on the one hand, I think I misstepped by not being more careful with regard to my comments on "Consultative Status" with the UN. I didn't realize quite how adversarial the conversational environment was. I think in a less adversarial environment those comments would have been, if not that important, also not that disruptive. However, given the current emotional environment it would have been better had I not introduced those remarks. So, to the extent that those remarks ended up being unintentionally more distracting than I anticipated, I apologize to you for introducing them.
On the other hand, Dacoutts, my other remarks that you dismissed as "needless and idle chit chat" or with "I seriously doubt this has much to do with this Cabal and I don't appreciate most of your comments" were sincere attempts to go to the very heart of what there is disagreement about. That you did not "get" them is unfortunate. But your responses seemed to me to be part of an unhealthy pattern of people expressing animosity towards one another rather than trying to figure out why we don't "get" each other's positions.
It is easy for any of us to fall into animosity, as a result of frustration. But it's not helpful—and is counter to (my) Humanist values. :-) If I have in any way slipped into expressing hostility, I apologize for that. To me, many of your reponses have appeared to be more about expressing hostility than about responding to content. So, I would appreciate a similar apology from you.
As far as how to structure conversation on these pages, it sounds like the least confusing way to do this might be for us each to:
- Rhwentworth 20:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Per Plover's suggestion, my comments that were here have been moved to
Talk:Humanism (lifestance). -
Rhwentworth
05:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)