This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
The question of the order to use for Japanese names, how to present them, etc, in Wikipedia has been under discussion for more than a year; we have been debating a new policy regarding these issues. This page has been created to:
Once we have settled what to do (if we manage to do so at all), then this page will remain as a historical note.
[For the archive of the original voting page, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles/Naming order/archived votes]
This poll will be closed on December 31, 2004. To vote, put your name at an option, using #, so it's easy to count the number of people who support any given option. You can indicate that you find several different options acceptable, but if so please add some text to give some more detail - e.g. "either this one or that one is OK with me, but I prefer this one". You can freely change your vote at any time.
SN= Surname, Family name or Clan name; GN= Given name or Penname
SN-GN without exception:
SN-GN for historical figures (pre-Meiji people) and some others related to traditional activities (namely, Charles Matthews's idea). Otherwise, GN-SN:
SN-GN, with the exception of those who are usually known in the English-speaking world in GN-SN order. This is essentially the suggestion in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles - "use the form of a person's name that is most widely known and used by English speakers"
GN-SN, with the exception of those who are usually known in the English-speaking world in SN-GN order
GN-SN without exception:
I think we need to clear something up with the GN-SN options below. Are we talking GN-SN:
And does it make sense that we might have a different convention for article name and first sentence? CES 15:09, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō):
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō) 1: (note the link can be Japanese name or something else.)
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō or Koizumi Jun'ichirō):
KOIZUMI, Jun'ichirō or Koizumi, Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎):
KOIZUMI Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎) or George Walker BUSH:
Koizumi Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎):
Jun'ichirō Koizumi (小泉 純一郎):
Put some linked notice about the name order and other editiorial notes using a template to
Every Japan-related article:
Every article about a Japanese figure:
Every article about a contemporary and modern Japanese figure:
None of articles
This topic seems to have lost its momentum, unless a dialogue is going on somewhere I don't know about. Anyone want to talk about the results? Should we implement them? To me at least, it doesn't really make sense that we'd go SN-GN in the article title but GN-SN in the first sentence, but what do others think? CES 13:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
SN-GN / GN-SN | |||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
The table shows a better than 2:1 preference for SN-GN for pre-modern people. I suggest we go with that. Then, for modern people, maybe we should narrow the choices—preferably, to only two—and vote again. It's normal to have inconclusive results when there are lots of choices, but if we narrow it to two, we have a better chance (but still no guarantee) of a clear winner. Fg2 00:42, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
If I can make a point. It has been official Monbusho (Ministry of Education etc) policy to write Japanese names in English as given-name family-name order since Meiji times. All the English language media uses GN-FN order, all the newspapers, the offical broadcaster NHK and all radio stations. I believe it has changed recently to make this optional but the number of people doing this is low (eg Utada Hikaru). In my opinion this just makes it confusing. Korean and Chinese names are usually kept in their traditional order but if they become citizens of English speaking nations they have to change. My name gets swapped around in Japanese, surname, firstname middlename and I don't complain, when in Rome...
Brettr 11:35, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)
I think that the Japanese name article does a pretty good job of discussing current usage on Japanese names in English. What I think that it comes down to is that the original policy of using the version of a person's name for which they are best known in English is probably a much better policy for the Wikipedia than trying to use any sort of arbitrary cutoff date for switching from Surname Given name order to Given name Surname order. I know that for what I am most familiar with, haiku and tanka poets, the names of Japanese poets are almost always given in the traditional Japanese order UNLESS that person also publishes in English. BlankVerse ∅ 14:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There has been a development (who ever imagined!) regarding putting a footnote in an article. Wikipedia is a good example. This seems to become a standard way of annotating an article, and I don't see why we cannot benefit from this in putting a note about the name order, romanization (e.g., tessaiga v.s., tetsusaiga) and such. Please use Manual of style for Japan-related articles/sample for polishing wording and the style. -- Taku 03:56, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here is a footnote: Wikipedia:Japanese_names WhisperToMe 03:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I see {{historical}} was added to this page recently. But this is an ongoing issue as long as en.wikipedia has, and keeps on adding, many Japan-related articles. In my opinion, just three months of the polling period in 2004 is hardly sufficient to address this ongoing issue. Is there a possibility of re-opening the poll for a much longer period (e.g. 1-2 years), or better yet, creating recurring polls once every one or two years (preferably until the issue is resolved)? Yiba ( talk | contribs) 08:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
The question of the order to use for Japanese names, how to present them, etc, in Wikipedia has been under discussion for more than a year; we have been debating a new policy regarding these issues. This page has been created to:
Once we have settled what to do (if we manage to do so at all), then this page will remain as a historical note.
[For the archive of the original voting page, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles/Naming order/archived votes]
This poll will be closed on December 31, 2004. To vote, put your name at an option, using #, so it's easy to count the number of people who support any given option. You can indicate that you find several different options acceptable, but if so please add some text to give some more detail - e.g. "either this one or that one is OK with me, but I prefer this one". You can freely change your vote at any time.
SN= Surname, Family name or Clan name; GN= Given name or Penname
SN-GN without exception:
SN-GN for historical figures (pre-Meiji people) and some others related to traditional activities (namely, Charles Matthews's idea). Otherwise, GN-SN:
SN-GN, with the exception of those who are usually known in the English-speaking world in GN-SN order. This is essentially the suggestion in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles - "use the form of a person's name that is most widely known and used by English speakers"
GN-SN, with the exception of those who are usually known in the English-speaking world in SN-GN order
GN-SN without exception:
I think we need to clear something up with the GN-SN options below. Are we talking GN-SN:
And does it make sense that we might have a different convention for article name and first sentence? CES 15:09, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō):
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō) 1: (note the link can be Japanese name or something else.)
Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎; Koizumi Jun'ichirō or Koizumi Jun'ichirō):
KOIZUMI, Jun'ichirō or Koizumi, Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎):
KOIZUMI Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎) or George Walker BUSH:
Koizumi Jun'ichirō (小泉 純一郎):
Jun'ichirō Koizumi (小泉 純一郎):
Put some linked notice about the name order and other editiorial notes using a template to
Every Japan-related article:
Every article about a Japanese figure:
Every article about a contemporary and modern Japanese figure:
None of articles
This topic seems to have lost its momentum, unless a dialogue is going on somewhere I don't know about. Anyone want to talk about the results? Should we implement them? To me at least, it doesn't really make sense that we'd go SN-GN in the article title but GN-SN in the first sentence, but what do others think? CES 13:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
SN-GN / GN-SN | |||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
The table shows a better than 2:1 preference for SN-GN for pre-modern people. I suggest we go with that. Then, for modern people, maybe we should narrow the choices—preferably, to only two—and vote again. It's normal to have inconclusive results when there are lots of choices, but if we narrow it to two, we have a better chance (but still no guarantee) of a clear winner. Fg2 00:42, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
If I can make a point. It has been official Monbusho (Ministry of Education etc) policy to write Japanese names in English as given-name family-name order since Meiji times. All the English language media uses GN-FN order, all the newspapers, the offical broadcaster NHK and all radio stations. I believe it has changed recently to make this optional but the number of people doing this is low (eg Utada Hikaru). In my opinion this just makes it confusing. Korean and Chinese names are usually kept in their traditional order but if they become citizens of English speaking nations they have to change. My name gets swapped around in Japanese, surname, firstname middlename and I don't complain, when in Rome...
Brettr 11:35, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)
I think that the Japanese name article does a pretty good job of discussing current usage on Japanese names in English. What I think that it comes down to is that the original policy of using the version of a person's name for which they are best known in English is probably a much better policy for the Wikipedia than trying to use any sort of arbitrary cutoff date for switching from Surname Given name order to Given name Surname order. I know that for what I am most familiar with, haiku and tanka poets, the names of Japanese poets are almost always given in the traditional Japanese order UNLESS that person also publishes in English. BlankVerse ∅ 14:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There has been a development (who ever imagined!) regarding putting a footnote in an article. Wikipedia is a good example. This seems to become a standard way of annotating an article, and I don't see why we cannot benefit from this in putting a note about the name order, romanization (e.g., tessaiga v.s., tetsusaiga) and such. Please use Manual of style for Japan-related articles/sample for polishing wording and the style. -- Taku 03:56, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here is a footnote: Wikipedia:Japanese_names WhisperToMe 03:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I see {{historical}} was added to this page recently. But this is an ongoing issue as long as en.wikipedia has, and keeps on adding, many Japan-related articles. In my opinion, just three months of the polling period in 2004 is hardly sufficient to address this ongoing issue. Is there a possibility of re-opening the poll for a much longer period (e.g. 1-2 years), or better yet, creating recurring polls once every one or two years (preferably until the issue is resolved)? Yiba ( talk | contribs) 08:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)