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The Irish Government and State have put the Island first in all Law and Constitution.
The Island has numerous Articles before the State is acknowledged in That Document.
Therfor, if that State is measured in importance, the Island be ever more important, by that States design.
If you were unaware or failing in the knowledge of that, Wikipedia is in the search to provide and disseminate such knowledge effectively [1].
(I said, island first as the state and therefore Wikipedia would have it, state second, respect the whole thing)
~
RTG
On the day that the state called Ireland becomes Ireland I will go buy a hat and post you all a picture of me eating it. I can see no other majorly contested point of confusion in this matter. ~ R. T. G 03:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | The following statement was prepared as part of the poll on Ireland article names. It may contain unsupported statements, synthesis of published sources, original research and personal interpretation of policy and guidelines. This statement was prepared by: |
This was the compromise position that I proposed in the Agust 2009 discussion, when I believed in good faith that it would be acceptable to other users. However, the majority remained determined to be wrong. For my equivalent 'not an inch' position, see
below --
Red King (
talk)
19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
My reasons are these:
Ireland as a distinct country has a long history, see above. In certain sports, such as Rugby, it continues to operate as such. For less than 100 years of its long history, it has two jurisdictions. The standard Wikipedia definition of country does not fit and it seems best to me to dodge the issue by redirecting to the new Ireland (context) article that I have described above.
Since it has come to pass that other parties have shown no wish to compromise, then let me state my 'no compromise' position in return. The name of the state is 'Ireland' and that it is how its article should be named. This is also its WP:COMMONNAME everywhere except in the UK. The name of the island article should be Ireland (island), which is the style used in nearly every other language wikipedia. -- Red King ( talk) 19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
The purpose of this second statement is to challenge a false assumption made in each of the 'proposed solutions' in the main article: they all make the mistake of equating the country, Ireland with the modern state, Ireland. They are not identical.
The problem is that the jurisdiction of neither of the present states is coterminous with the historical country. It is wrong to define Ireland only in terms of the 20th century (which is what many of the options proposed by others seeks to do). The term 'Ireland', in the context of its people and their political structures, has an undisputed history as a distinct single nation going back at least 1000 years (see High Kings of Ireland - an even longer history is argued by some). Even under [disputed] English overlordship, Ireland remained politically distinct until the Act of Union 1801 - and even then we had the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, albeit for just 120 years.
I recognise that the current Country article defines a country to be identically equal to a sovereign state. In the case of Ireland, that is not true. There are many all-island institions, dating back many hundreds of years. Examples include the major religious denominations and the 'national' (as in " RBS Six Nations" [sic]) rugby team. The history of the country, Ireland, is not the history of the current state of that name.
Consequently I propose that if we have to have an Ireland (country) article [and I am at a loss to see why we do] then it should only redirect to the proposed 'context' Ireland article. In the context of this procedure, it should be deleted from the solution matrix because it is contentious and not critical to any of the solutions.
To avoid anyone jumping to the conclusion that this is a nationalist polemic for Irish unity, please observe that it would apply equally well to a reunited United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The last 80 years represent less than 8% of the history of the country. I'm asking people to take the long view.
The short bit - If the RoI article is not to be moved to "Ireland", I agree with the compromise proposal that:
For those who wish to read on:
There are a bunch of states that have geographic names that do not fully correspond with their borders – Examples:
....The names of all of the above states have Wikipedia articles that follow their usual names.Why is Ireland being singled out? Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 07:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I wish to express disappointment that this project is apparently focused only on the names of article pages.
As I argued in discussions about the Ireland disambiguation task force, the disputes around the Ireland name relate not only to the names of the articles, but also how the names are used within the text of other articles. The names of related articles are also relevant, e.g. Economy of the Republic of Ireland, Demographics of the Republic of Ireland.
The narrow terms of reference of this arbitration/mediation attempt mean that it is doomed to fail. A solution that focuses only on the titles of two articles will not resolve the naming dispute.
I also argued that the only way to achieve consensus is to achieve a comprehensive solution that included decisions about both article names and also references to names in other articles.
I perceived that the primary cause of the disputes has been the objection by a group of editors, mostly from the Republic of Ireland, to the term “Republic of Ireland”. This objection has validity, but the uncompromising and doctrinaire nature of some of its adherents, who wish to purge the term entirely from the whole encyclopaedia, has predictably provoked similarly uncompromising and doctrinaire opposition.
On the face of it, the stated reason for this objection – that “Ireland” is the official name and the “Republic of Ireland” is not – is sound. It fails, however, to take into account:
The wholesale objection to the term appears to be a visceral one that goes beyond reason.
It is noteworthy, however, that there appears to be no dispute about the need for disambiguation.
My strong view, therefore, is that "Republic of Ireland" should remain the name of the state article, and that "Ireland" should remain the name of the island article.
In the interests of compromise, however, I was prepared to forego this position and accept "Ireland (state)" as the name of the state article but only if there were also agreement to allow "Republic of Ireland" to be used in the text of other articles where appropriate.
My proposal, therefore, was:
This proposal received unprecedented support from a wide range of editors. I still believe that this is the solution.
It is a solution that I can support, however, only as an entire package. The individual elements of the solution lose my support if they are picked off and dealt with separately.
Call it fatigue, I'm no longer concerned about what the Ireland articles are called. As long as I can differentiate them, I'm content. Therefore, I'll go along with whatever's decided.
Irish who fall under the red hand (Ulster) are less likely to claim they are Irish owing to the recent "Troubles" when many adopted saying that they do not want to be Irish. Do they get the red hand from Scotland, England, Wales or some other non-Irish state? Northern what? Ulster where? Is that place equally on Ireland yet not a part of a certain state? Very much so, yes.
Does the state cover the topic of Ireland? No. Not on its own. The topic of Ireland covers the state but not the other way around.
Does the state cherish its heritage as a republic? Yes. Its basic element is a republic, An Poblacht na hEireann. In ten years the state plans the biggest party it has ever known to celebrate the republics hundredth year, the states "birth".
Would it be appropriate to hide or obscure the element of republic in this state? No. Certainly not. Terror to thought. Those concerned with the state would hardly appreciate that. Some political leaders would go for that in a big way? Nonsense. Rubbish. Sorry. None of them would unless it had to do with uniting the rest of the place and I for one would go with that also. Of course the state is not Ireland. If it were to become the complete Irish state, it would change signifigantly, would not be the state that it is today.
Under the heading Interim agreement on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration, it says, among other things that, “Members commit to the best of their ability, always to "comply with Wikipedia policies …and…utilizing reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions…” All of the contrabutions which suggest that "Ireland" is ambiguous have provided no reliable sources to support their assertions.
The term "Ireland" is ambiguous?
Based on the above, Editors cannot address the issues of The term "Ireland" is ambiguous until some supporting evidence is provided. Editors who wish to oppose my rational and reasoning may wish to add what verifiable and reliable sources which say it is ambiguous under this, when posting their oppose preference?
Responce to links are here
Renaming this article, "Ireland" whether with disambiguation brackets or not, will inevitably end up with phrases such as "we generally call [Northern Ireland] Ulster, though Ulster strictly includes three counties in Ireland". [7] Personally I think this is the best argument against a rename, but here are some more anyway.
The Irish state has, for better of for worse, two common names:
Ireland is used to refer to the state when there is little or no need to worry about confusion with northern Ireland. It is also used for legal purposes such as Irish Acts of Parliament and treaties. Legal documents come with definitions and acquired meanings, encyclopedia articles don't. In an act of parliament black can be white and white can be black. Under the nationality acts the children of diplomats aren't "people", but who is really going to say that Irish law doesn't recognise them as human beings.
The Republic of Ireland is used when there is a possibility of confusion. The latter term is also a much more precise term for encyclopedic usage. The statement "Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" has a very high probability of being misunderstood if it is made away from the Republic of Ireland article with its copious explanation of the naming problem. No user should be expected to read (the excellent) article on Names of the Irish state. It is not a precondition for reading Wikipedia that they do so. The above statement should be self-explanatory. "The Republic of Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" fits this purpose.
At an article naming level we opt for the Republic of Ireland as a page title. Page titles lack context and Ireland as a title could cause confusion. I admit Ireland (state) does not give rise to confusion but it does end up with an undesirable this is what we say (this is what we mean) naming convention. Ireland (state) would be an ok solution if the Oireachtas had never passed the Republic of Ireland Act, but they did. One of the reasons given in the Dail debate for the act was to avoid the use of the terms "Eire [sic]" and/or "Ireland" to refer exclusively to the state at the expense of Northern Ireland.
Elsewhere in Wikipedia where there isn't any risk of confusion we can (and should) pipe-link: [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]].
Proponents of a rename have two main arguments: first, Ireland is the official name of the state and, second, the term is frequently used to refer to the state. I'll deal with the latter argument first. I would simply suggest that usage of Ireland to refer to the state falls into three categories:
1. Usage where we would pipe-link because no confusion arises.
2. Legal usage which comes with definitions and acquired meanings. Moreover this usage is insisted upon by the Irish government and so can hardly be taken as a sign of common usage.
3. Usage which which implies, or states explicitly, that Northern Ireland is not part of Ireland which, simply put, is both artificial and inaccurate.
Now I'll get back to the first argument. That Ireland clearly is the official name of the state is a lousy reason for renaming the article. Very few countries have their official names as their article name on Wikipedia and two of them, the US and the UK, use shortened forms.
Arguments in support of the legal name are typically phrased along the lines of right, sometimes moral or sovereign. And Irish editors who oppose changes are effectively labelled as West brits.
Yet Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum for the attainment of justice or redress against historic wrongs. We have to approach the issues from what's best for the encyclopedia and that is not just use the legal name. The word Ireland is confusing. No amount of law can change that.
Moreover the legal argument seeks to use Wikipedia's guidelines against what they intended. The guideline that legal names constitute appropriate names for disputed entities, is written on the clear assumption that the legal names of countries fall in line with "Republic of here", "Kingdom of there" and "People's Republic of Somewhere Else". It is on this line that the Macedonian state resides at Republic of Macedonia and not Macedonia. Ireland, the state, bucks that trend. If the rule on legal names applied, the result would be exactly the opposite of what it was intended to be.
The locus classicus of a disambiguation page is a term which has entirely different meaning of which readers may not be aware. Thus Georgia may be a US State or a country in the Caucasus. Anyone who types Georgia in the search bar already knows what they're looking for and doesn't need an explanation over why the term is ambiguous.
This can't be said for Ireland. The term "Ireland" is ambiguous but - and forgive me for stating the obvious - the different meaning are not entirely disassociated. Ireland is neither simply an island nor even just a state, but rather a social, cultural and historical entity. It is this entity which people typing "Ireland" in Wikipedia's search bar want to find out about, and what the Ireland article should be about.
Offering readers a bare disambiguation page with choice of two articles (island or state) is unfair as it expects them to understand why the term is ambiguous before we have an opportunity to explain why this is so. There is plenty of room within the Ireland article to explain and elaborate upon this ambiguity, which would lost in a disambiguation page which could only server to confuse rather than to educate.
I would just like to clarify 3 points.
Ireland can be used to refer to many different things, but is mainly used to refer to either the island or the modern state. Ambiguity exists for this term.
Using the term Republic of Ireland to refer to the modern Irish state causes division among editors and, regardless of the reasons or the rights and wrongs, has resulted in much disruption and edit warring over a wide range of articles. To avoid future disruption, a binding agreement from both sides is required.
Having reach read through the statements made so far by others, it seems to me that there may be some disagreement not just on the naming of the articles but on some points which editors on both sides of the argument consider to be fundamental.
I am therefore making this statement as a series of short propositions, in an attempt to measure support for each of them.
My hope is that the responses here will help us to identify any fundamental disagreements, as well as to hopefully find many points of agreement. I have restricted this list to thirteen propositions, and I do not claim that it covers a particularly wide range of topics. Please consider it as an experiment.
"Ireland" is the name of an island in Europe which lies in the Atlantic ocean to the north-west of continental Europe.
"Ireland" is the name of an independent state which covers approximately five-sixths of the island called "Ireland".
The English-language name of the state is defined in Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, which says in full: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."
The description of the state is defined in law as "the Republic of Ireland", by Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, which says in full: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."
Off topic text added by
Snowded was removed from this section by
Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see
[8].
The phrase "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the 26-county state, either in statute law or in the constitution
The official name of the state is the same as the name of the island
The following statement was true in 1998: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
The following statement was true in 1798: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
The following statement has always been false: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
An event which happened in Belfast in 1890 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland
An event which happened in Belfast in 2008 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland
A person born in the Bogside area of Derry in 1950 was born in Ireland
When Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Omagh ceased to be a town in Ireland
It seems to me that many of these statements would get more support and or opposition if they were shorter. This applies particularly where they present perceived facts and then arrive at possible arguable potential conclusions.
Ireland should only be used as the page that describes the 26 county state.
"Ireland" is a proper noun that can refer to two things: an island and a contemporary state:
Both senses of the word "Ireland" can be described as a being a "country". Only the sense of the word that means the state can be described as being a "state".
In most cases, use of the term "Ireland" can be assumed to mean the island. E.g.:
There are some areas when "Ireland" should be understood unequivocally to mean the state e.g. a "citizen of Ireland" means a citizen of the sate by that name, 1937-present. These circumstances are limited to areas that, by their context, can be understood to refer to the business of contemporary state and its apparatus.
When necessary to distinguish between the two "Ireland"s, alternative terminology is used to refer to the state (e.g. "Éire", "Republic of Ireland", "the Republic", "the 26 counties", "the south"). No alternative terminology is used to disambiguate the island, which is always called "Ireland". (Rarely from the clarifier, "the island of Ireland", is used for emphasis.)
The article on the island, is the 252th most linked to article on Wikipedia (20,756 links). Last month, the article on the island as viewed 325,538 times making it the 467th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.
The article on the state is the 797th most linked to article on Wikipedia (7,672 links). Last month, the article on the state as viewed 132,571 times making it the 1,877th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.
(See Special:MostLinkedPages and stats.grok.se.)
1. Ireland is the name of the island west of Great Britain.
2. Ireland is the official name of the sovereign state that occupies 5/6 of the above island.
3. There are two primary different meanings of the word 'Ireland' both of which are equally acceptable and correct.
4. Republic of Ireland is not an official name of the sovereign state called Ireland.
5. Republic of Ireland is an acceptable disambiguator on articles where there is obvious potential confusion as the term "Ireland" can be used many different times in many different ways in such articles. eg.
Ireland (island),
Northern Ireland,
History of Ireland etc.
6.
Island of Ireland is also a potentially acceptable disambiguator that can be used to differentiate the two main "Irelands".
7. However, use of Republic of Ireland in articles where it is obvious it is the sovereign state being referred to, could be seen as misleading as it may cause a reader of Wikipedia to wrongly interpret that Republic of Ireland is the/an official name of the state.
The name of the state has been a matter of vigorous contention between the Irish government and the government of the United Kingdom. Among those contested names were Eire and 'Republic of Ireland'. Since the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement, those terms, as names, are deprecated by the UK government in favour of 'Ireland'. Use of 'Republic of Ireland' as a name for the state, or by extension, a Wikipedia article about the state, is not value neutral.
ed. per User:BrownHairedGirl's suggestion I have decided to split up the points so that editors can decide to support or oppose on a point-by-point basis. Sorry about the mess. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 19:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This is my second statement. It attempts to condense down my core opinions relating to the naming dispute, and addresses issues about how to refer to the Irish state and the island away from the core articles, currently named Ireland and Republic of Ireland.
It is important to inform readers that the official name of the Irish state is Ireland, but this point does not have primacy over all other issues relating to Ireland-related articles.
Readers should be able to tell, without guesswork or prior knowledge, whether or not an article they're reading relates to the island, the state or to Northern Ireland.
It should not be necessary for every article relating to Ireland to address the naming dispute or explain what the article means when it says "Ireland".
This is self-evident.
A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article on the state must reside on the page titled after the official name of that state and that this should supplant the article on the island.
A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article should reside at Republic of Ireland as the use of the state's own official description is a workable counter to the ambiguity.
A certain group of users has proposed an "equal misery" compromise whereby disambig tags are added after the title (Ireland (Island) and Ireland (state).
The debate rears its head at periods ranging from weeks to months, but won't go away, despite a lack of consensus for a change. This is a content dispute, and therefore usually outside Arbcom's remit, but an Arbcom resolution might at least put an end to this for once and for all.
A characteristic of the debate has been polls conducted in sometimes unusual places, including a task force apparently set up to decide the issue, which hasn't always advertised itself and its polls as well as it might.
There seems to be an article missing.
What with all this talk of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] , people seem to have forgotten that there is also a country called Ireland. Not the 26 county state either, the country called Ireland that existed prior to partition.
So will the birthplace of Michael Collins be piped as [[Ireland (island)|Ireland]]? Seems ridiculous to me, he was born in a country called Ireland not just on an island.
Perhaps those in favour of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] will let things go back to how they used to be, when people’s birthplaces were piped as [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Ireland]]? But this was discussed already, and the same doesn’t happen with England, Scotland or Wales so why should Ireland be piped that way? Ireland did not cease being a country with the Act of Union, and neither did England, Scotland or Wales.
So are those in favour of moving the moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] in favour of creating an [[Ireland (historical country)]] article? If not, how else are you going to fix the problems you create.
As for the rest I don’t really care one way or another, too much time has been wasted fighting political battles when far more constructive things could have been done. As such I have no intention of getting involved in the pointless bickering, save for me pointing out the rather substantial flaw in the plans of some people.
I requested in my original Collaboration Statement here that editors provided supporting evidence of the term "Ireland" being ambiguous. To date, only User:Rockpocket has made any attempt to do so. User:Rockpocket provided three sources, none of which support the contention that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous.
Thank you User:Rockpocket for providing the above links.
Ireland is an internationally recognised country which is very clear and unambiguous, supported by the above referenced sources. No source has or can be provided which challenge this fact. Based on the above, the country article on Ireland should be simply that, “Ireland.”
The article titled “Republic of Ireland” should be about the descriptive term for the country and the history of the term, and should not contain or duplicate the information from the Ireland article.
“Republic of Ireland” should not be pipe linked when referring to Ireland, as is the case with the EU outlined above. When referring to Northern Ireland, in Ireland related articles it should be linked accordingly.
The only place were the term "Ireland" is considered ambiguous is on Wikipedia, and it should be addressed because its ridiculous.
The term " Republic of Ireland" as the name for the 26-county state has been repeatedly used by the Oireachtas. It is therefore wrong to suggest that it is some sort of imposition by those outside Ireland or that its use on wikipedia breaches the Wikipedia's principle of neutrality.
In several statute laws, not only has "Republic of Ireland" been used as the name of the state, but "Ireland" has actually been as meaning "The Republic of Ireland", e.g.
The phrase "Republic of Ireland" has also been used in many other contexts in Acts of the Oireachtas and in statutory instruments. A Google search for the phrase "Republic of Ireland" returns 114 hits. Not all of those will be unique, but the documents returned include both Acts of the Oireachtas and Statutory instruments.
The term "Republic of Ireland" continues to be used by govt bodies and others. See for example:
It is also used by commercial bodies and other non-state entities:
The dispute over the primary article subject for the term "Ireland" has raged for years. Both supporters of the Island, and those who support having the State at under this title, have provided numerous lines of evidence in support of either argument. These include Ghits, historical precedence, legal and constitutional support, scholarly preference, self reference and comparison to other Wikipedia articles. Some arguments are convincing, others less so. Ultimately, without a quantitative metric to evaluate which line of evidence is more important, we are left with qualitative interpretations.
If one thing is clear from this dispute, it is that qualitative value lies entirely in the eyes of the respective beholders, and there is no incentive to shift that value system. Given this, there will be no consensus based on qualitative interpretation. Given that, there will never be agreement on a primary topic. Therefore, it seems self evident that the only solution that could ever reach significant consensus is a disambiguation. I therefore propose that The content of the page called "Ireland" is a simple (short) disambiguation page (solution C). Rockpocke t 20:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It could refer to the island, it could refer to the state, it could refer to someone with the surname Ireland, and I'm sure there are other uses too. Without knowing the context of the search, someone entering "Ireland" into a search engine, including Wikipedia's, could be looking for any of the above.
Someone using "Ireland" as a search time is more probably looking for information on the island or on the state than the other uses of the term. However, between island and state, there is no established primary topic. I would hazard a guess that more people would be referring to the state than the island when talking about "Ireland", but that is just a guess.
Both the island and the state have alternative English names.
"Doing what we've always done because that's the way we've always done it" is not the Wikipedia way. We are striving to make the best encyclopaedia possible, and when it comes to decisions like this, that means ignoring the current situation and trying to figure out what the best way of doing things is, and then make the necessary changes. In other words, any argument along the lines of "changing the status quo would take a lot of work, so let's not do it" shouldn't be admissible here. We're looking to do what's best for our readers, not what's easiest for us.
People get incredibly passionate about the name of their country and how their country is represented. It's that passion that has brought us to this situation. The lesson to learn from this is that people place more importance on what their nation is called than on what the lump of rock their nation sits on is called. So if either the state or the island has to take precidence, and if all other things are equal (and I'm suggesting they are), then I would argue that the state holds a bigger claim to the name "Ireland" than the island does.
People feeling passionately about something is, rightly, rarely a consideration on Wikipedia. In fact, rules like WP:CENSOR show that such things aren't really to be considered at all. But WP:IAR says that if the rules are getting in the way of improving the encyclopaedia then ignore them. So if putting the state article at "Ireland", or making "Ireland" a disambiguation page, stops the disruption we've seen then let's do it: it would improve the encyclopaedia.
The problem is, that last "if" is quite a big one too; personally, I think the probability is fairly low that the disruption would simply stop by moving the state article to "Ireland", so this consideration is a minor one in relation to assertions 1-4.
If there was a single primary topic, then that should reside at Ireland with a hatnote to a disambiguation page. But there is no primary topic (or, more precisely, there are two primary topics).
Ignoring assertion 5 for a moment, if precisely one of the primary topics had a commonly used alternative name, and the other didn't, then it would be reasonable to have the article with no alternative name at Ireland and the other article given the commonly used alternative name. But in this case, both entities have commonly used alternative names, so there's still no way to decide which, if either, should sit at "Ireland". If we bring assertion 5 into play, the argument for having the state article at Ireland carries more weight than having the island article there - but that weight is insufficient to tip the balance away from the need for Ireland to be a disambiguation page. Indeed, assertions that "Republic of Ireland" is a more common alternative for the state than "Eire" et al are for the island may be enough to put the balance firmly in the centre, meaning that having a disambiguation page at Ireland is the only way forward.
(A) Page contains "The island of Ireland"
Presentism should be avoided. The primary meaning of "Ireland" is clearly the larger, island unit. The 26-county unit has been in existence for less than one hundred years compared with the island's existence for many millennia. Indeed, the 26-county unit takes its name from the larger, island unit.
People generally who talk about Ireland usually mean the island. Someone "going to Ireland" does not generally distinguish between North and South. Someone from Northern Ireland who says that he is from Ireland will not generally be mistaken as coming from the 26-county state, but will generally be understood as coming from the island of Ireland.
People from, and places and things in, Northern Ireland are no less part of Ireland than are people, places or things in the 26-county state.
The use of "Ireland" to mean 26 counties rather than the whole island is not only offensive to unionists in Northern Ireland, but also to many Northern nationalists: In 2008, Sinn Féin MLA Barry McElduff wrote to all TDs and Senators in the Republic of Ireland to complain about the 26-county state using "Ireland" to refer only to the 26 counties: "I suppose I am doing it to challenge partitionism – this notion that the 26 counties constitutes Ireland. I find it very offensive. Even in the EU I hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Sometimes they talk about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I’d call it geopolitical speak. [1]
Using "Republic of Ireland" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland is supported by eight points:
However, use of "Republic of Ireland" as an article name is opposed because:
Point 1 of the opposing argument is countered by points 3, 4 and 5 of the supporting arguments: the phrase was developed by the Irish government, approved by the Irish parliament, and is in use in Ireland, both officially and unofficially. Countering these points is the argument that, despite its mention in Irish law, the phrase is nevertheless still perceived as offensive by some Irish editors.
Using "Ireland (state)" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland would use the official name of the state coupled with a simple disambiguator. In favour of this option are:
However, this option is opposed by four points:
On the adoption of 1A, C or D: Republic of Ireland contains "The state of Ireland"
Why make up a term that no-one uses? "Republic of Ireland" is in regular use, unlike "Ireland (state)", "Ireland (country)" or any of the other suggestions. "Republic of Ireland" is a statutory "description" of the state, which effecitvely is an alternative name. Note that it is written in the legislation as a name (i.e. capitalised): Republic of Ireland. If it were literally a description it would simply say "Ireland is a republic". It's the obvious alternative term to use.
The word "Ireland" is both the name of the island and the name of the modern state whose jurisdiction extends to only 26 of the 32 counties of that Ireland. As a result the word is ambiguous in its modern usage, both in terms of geography and of legal jurisdiction.
Luckily, there is a widely-used and understood term which resolves any ambiguity relating to the state. "Republic of Ireland" is defined in the Republic of Ireland Act as the description of the state, and this is widely used both in general usage and by the state itself: that official usage in Ireland includes Acts of the Oireachtas, Statutory instruments, and current usage by government departments.
This usage is important not just in the naming of the main article on the Republic of Ireland, but also in the naming of hundreds of related articles on issues relating the government of Ireland. No alternative formulation has been offered which removes the ambiguity inherent in phrases such as "taxation in Ireland", "roads in Ireland", or "social welfare in Ireland": all of those subjects differ on opposite sides of the border, but the ambiguity can be resolved easily by using a simple formulation:
The problem is not solely that there is no alternative naming system on offer, but that some of those opposing the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" deny that any ambiguity exists. As one example, see this discussion on my talk page with an editor who insisted that the phrase "Elections in Ireland" ambiguously refers to post-1922 elections in the 26-county state, ignoring the elections to the pre-1801 Parliament of Ireland, elections from 1801-1922 (when Ireland was United under British rule) and elections in Northern Ireland. From that example, it is clear that failure to retain the phrase "Republic of Ireland" to the refer to the 26-county state will have widespread consequences for our ability to retain unambiguous names for such articles in the face of editors who claim (as in that discussion) that pointing to the distinctions is, as I was told, "attempting to introduce ambiguity to a subject where none exists".
This issue affects not only articles. There are also thousands of categories, which are currently organised under Category:Ireland (for 32-county issues), Category:Northern Ireland (for 6-county issues since 1921), and Category:Republic of Ireland (for 26-county issues since 1922). This naming structure is clear and simple, and it works, but if the head article Republic of Ireland is renamed, the category system will become an anomaly.
For these reasons, retaining the name "Republic of Ireland" for the modern 26-county state is the least-worst option available.
On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:
Then, and only then, I propose:
Why? Because the name of the state is "Ireland". Since this proposal only applies on the event it has been decided "Ireland" will be used for another purpose, we need to find an alternative. Of those, "Ireland (country)" could be interpreted in a wider sense to refer to the entire island, and thus is ambiguous. "Ireland (republic)" is a possible alternative, but could lead so some confusion with the historical Irish Republic. "Republic of Ireland" is clearly been used as a description of the state, at least by some. But it is also clear that there is a significant demographic within Ireland that object to this term for historical and geopolitical reasons. Therefore in the interest of compromise and recognizing the principle of self identification, I suggest this title not be used if a less controversial alternative is available. This leaves "Ireland (state)". The major argument against this is that "state" could be misinterpreted (as in State (administrative division)). I acknowledge this caveat, but propose that it is not as big a concern as the other issues described above.
On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The state of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.
An article describing the geography, geology, history and peoples of the entire island of Ireland should either be at "Ireland" or "Ireland (island)". The debate over which of these two alternatives should be used focuses on:
1. whether or not there is a primary meaning of the term "Ireland"
2. whether or not the primary meaning, if there is one, is the island.
On the adoption of 1B, C or D: Ireland (island) contains "The island of Ireland"
Country is ambiguous. Island is not.
On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:
Then, and only then, I propose:
Why? Because the alternative, "Ireland (country)", is hopelessly ambiguous.
On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The island of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.
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The Irish Government and State have put the Island first in all Law and Constitution.
The Island has numerous Articles before the State is acknowledged in That Document.
Therfor, if that State is measured in importance, the Island be ever more important, by that States design.
If you were unaware or failing in the knowledge of that, Wikipedia is in the search to provide and disseminate such knowledge effectively [1].
(I said, island first as the state and therefore Wikipedia would have it, state second, respect the whole thing)
~
RTG
On the day that the state called Ireland becomes Ireland I will go buy a hat and post you all a picture of me eating it. I can see no other majorly contested point of confusion in this matter. ~ R. T. G 03:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | The following statement was prepared as part of the poll on Ireland article names. It may contain unsupported statements, synthesis of published sources, original research and personal interpretation of policy and guidelines. This statement was prepared by: |
This was the compromise position that I proposed in the Agust 2009 discussion, when I believed in good faith that it would be acceptable to other users. However, the majority remained determined to be wrong. For my equivalent 'not an inch' position, see
below --
Red King (
talk)
19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
My reasons are these:
Ireland as a distinct country has a long history, see above. In certain sports, such as Rugby, it continues to operate as such. For less than 100 years of its long history, it has two jurisdictions. The standard Wikipedia definition of country does not fit and it seems best to me to dodge the issue by redirecting to the new Ireland (context) article that I have described above.
Since it has come to pass that other parties have shown no wish to compromise, then let me state my 'no compromise' position in return. The name of the state is 'Ireland' and that it is how its article should be named. This is also its WP:COMMONNAME everywhere except in the UK. The name of the island article should be Ireland (island), which is the style used in nearly every other language wikipedia. -- Red King ( talk) 19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
The purpose of this second statement is to challenge a false assumption made in each of the 'proposed solutions' in the main article: they all make the mistake of equating the country, Ireland with the modern state, Ireland. They are not identical.
The problem is that the jurisdiction of neither of the present states is coterminous with the historical country. It is wrong to define Ireland only in terms of the 20th century (which is what many of the options proposed by others seeks to do). The term 'Ireland', in the context of its people and their political structures, has an undisputed history as a distinct single nation going back at least 1000 years (see High Kings of Ireland - an even longer history is argued by some). Even under [disputed] English overlordship, Ireland remained politically distinct until the Act of Union 1801 - and even then we had the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, albeit for just 120 years.
I recognise that the current Country article defines a country to be identically equal to a sovereign state. In the case of Ireland, that is not true. There are many all-island institions, dating back many hundreds of years. Examples include the major religious denominations and the 'national' (as in " RBS Six Nations" [sic]) rugby team. The history of the country, Ireland, is not the history of the current state of that name.
Consequently I propose that if we have to have an Ireland (country) article [and I am at a loss to see why we do] then it should only redirect to the proposed 'context' Ireland article. In the context of this procedure, it should be deleted from the solution matrix because it is contentious and not critical to any of the solutions.
To avoid anyone jumping to the conclusion that this is a nationalist polemic for Irish unity, please observe that it would apply equally well to a reunited United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The last 80 years represent less than 8% of the history of the country. I'm asking people to take the long view.
The short bit - If the RoI article is not to be moved to "Ireland", I agree with the compromise proposal that:
For those who wish to read on:
There are a bunch of states that have geographic names that do not fully correspond with their borders – Examples:
....The names of all of the above states have Wikipedia articles that follow their usual names.Why is Ireland being singled out? Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 07:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I wish to express disappointment that this project is apparently focused only on the names of article pages.
As I argued in discussions about the Ireland disambiguation task force, the disputes around the Ireland name relate not only to the names of the articles, but also how the names are used within the text of other articles. The names of related articles are also relevant, e.g. Economy of the Republic of Ireland, Demographics of the Republic of Ireland.
The narrow terms of reference of this arbitration/mediation attempt mean that it is doomed to fail. A solution that focuses only on the titles of two articles will not resolve the naming dispute.
I also argued that the only way to achieve consensus is to achieve a comprehensive solution that included decisions about both article names and also references to names in other articles.
I perceived that the primary cause of the disputes has been the objection by a group of editors, mostly from the Republic of Ireland, to the term “Republic of Ireland”. This objection has validity, but the uncompromising and doctrinaire nature of some of its adherents, who wish to purge the term entirely from the whole encyclopaedia, has predictably provoked similarly uncompromising and doctrinaire opposition.
On the face of it, the stated reason for this objection – that “Ireland” is the official name and the “Republic of Ireland” is not – is sound. It fails, however, to take into account:
The wholesale objection to the term appears to be a visceral one that goes beyond reason.
It is noteworthy, however, that there appears to be no dispute about the need for disambiguation.
My strong view, therefore, is that "Republic of Ireland" should remain the name of the state article, and that "Ireland" should remain the name of the island article.
In the interests of compromise, however, I was prepared to forego this position and accept "Ireland (state)" as the name of the state article but only if there were also agreement to allow "Republic of Ireland" to be used in the text of other articles where appropriate.
My proposal, therefore, was:
This proposal received unprecedented support from a wide range of editors. I still believe that this is the solution.
It is a solution that I can support, however, only as an entire package. The individual elements of the solution lose my support if they are picked off and dealt with separately.
Call it fatigue, I'm no longer concerned about what the Ireland articles are called. As long as I can differentiate them, I'm content. Therefore, I'll go along with whatever's decided.
Irish who fall under the red hand (Ulster) are less likely to claim they are Irish owing to the recent "Troubles" when many adopted saying that they do not want to be Irish. Do they get the red hand from Scotland, England, Wales or some other non-Irish state? Northern what? Ulster where? Is that place equally on Ireland yet not a part of a certain state? Very much so, yes.
Does the state cover the topic of Ireland? No. Not on its own. The topic of Ireland covers the state but not the other way around.
Does the state cherish its heritage as a republic? Yes. Its basic element is a republic, An Poblacht na hEireann. In ten years the state plans the biggest party it has ever known to celebrate the republics hundredth year, the states "birth".
Would it be appropriate to hide or obscure the element of republic in this state? No. Certainly not. Terror to thought. Those concerned with the state would hardly appreciate that. Some political leaders would go for that in a big way? Nonsense. Rubbish. Sorry. None of them would unless it had to do with uniting the rest of the place and I for one would go with that also. Of course the state is not Ireland. If it were to become the complete Irish state, it would change signifigantly, would not be the state that it is today.
Under the heading Interim agreement on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration, it says, among other things that, “Members commit to the best of their ability, always to "comply with Wikipedia policies …and…utilizing reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions…” All of the contrabutions which suggest that "Ireland" is ambiguous have provided no reliable sources to support their assertions.
The term "Ireland" is ambiguous?
Based on the above, Editors cannot address the issues of The term "Ireland" is ambiguous until some supporting evidence is provided. Editors who wish to oppose my rational and reasoning may wish to add what verifiable and reliable sources which say it is ambiguous under this, when posting their oppose preference?
Responce to links are here
Renaming this article, "Ireland" whether with disambiguation brackets or not, will inevitably end up with phrases such as "we generally call [Northern Ireland] Ulster, though Ulster strictly includes three counties in Ireland". [7] Personally I think this is the best argument against a rename, but here are some more anyway.
The Irish state has, for better of for worse, two common names:
Ireland is used to refer to the state when there is little or no need to worry about confusion with northern Ireland. It is also used for legal purposes such as Irish Acts of Parliament and treaties. Legal documents come with definitions and acquired meanings, encyclopedia articles don't. In an act of parliament black can be white and white can be black. Under the nationality acts the children of diplomats aren't "people", but who is really going to say that Irish law doesn't recognise them as human beings.
The Republic of Ireland is used when there is a possibility of confusion. The latter term is also a much more precise term for encyclopedic usage. The statement "Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" has a very high probability of being misunderstood if it is made away from the Republic of Ireland article with its copious explanation of the naming problem. No user should be expected to read (the excellent) article on Names of the Irish state. It is not a precondition for reading Wikipedia that they do so. The above statement should be self-explanatory. "The Republic of Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" fits this purpose.
At an article naming level we opt for the Republic of Ireland as a page title. Page titles lack context and Ireland as a title could cause confusion. I admit Ireland (state) does not give rise to confusion but it does end up with an undesirable this is what we say (this is what we mean) naming convention. Ireland (state) would be an ok solution if the Oireachtas had never passed the Republic of Ireland Act, but they did. One of the reasons given in the Dail debate for the act was to avoid the use of the terms "Eire [sic]" and/or "Ireland" to refer exclusively to the state at the expense of Northern Ireland.
Elsewhere in Wikipedia where there isn't any risk of confusion we can (and should) pipe-link: [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]].
Proponents of a rename have two main arguments: first, Ireland is the official name of the state and, second, the term is frequently used to refer to the state. I'll deal with the latter argument first. I would simply suggest that usage of Ireland to refer to the state falls into three categories:
1. Usage where we would pipe-link because no confusion arises.
2. Legal usage which comes with definitions and acquired meanings. Moreover this usage is insisted upon by the Irish government and so can hardly be taken as a sign of common usage.
3. Usage which which implies, or states explicitly, that Northern Ireland is not part of Ireland which, simply put, is both artificial and inaccurate.
Now I'll get back to the first argument. That Ireland clearly is the official name of the state is a lousy reason for renaming the article. Very few countries have their official names as their article name on Wikipedia and two of them, the US and the UK, use shortened forms.
Arguments in support of the legal name are typically phrased along the lines of right, sometimes moral or sovereign. And Irish editors who oppose changes are effectively labelled as West brits.
Yet Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum for the attainment of justice or redress against historic wrongs. We have to approach the issues from what's best for the encyclopedia and that is not just use the legal name. The word Ireland is confusing. No amount of law can change that.
Moreover the legal argument seeks to use Wikipedia's guidelines against what they intended. The guideline that legal names constitute appropriate names for disputed entities, is written on the clear assumption that the legal names of countries fall in line with "Republic of here", "Kingdom of there" and "People's Republic of Somewhere Else". It is on this line that the Macedonian state resides at Republic of Macedonia and not Macedonia. Ireland, the state, bucks that trend. If the rule on legal names applied, the result would be exactly the opposite of what it was intended to be.
The locus classicus of a disambiguation page is a term which has entirely different meaning of which readers may not be aware. Thus Georgia may be a US State or a country in the Caucasus. Anyone who types Georgia in the search bar already knows what they're looking for and doesn't need an explanation over why the term is ambiguous.
This can't be said for Ireland. The term "Ireland" is ambiguous but - and forgive me for stating the obvious - the different meaning are not entirely disassociated. Ireland is neither simply an island nor even just a state, but rather a social, cultural and historical entity. It is this entity which people typing "Ireland" in Wikipedia's search bar want to find out about, and what the Ireland article should be about.
Offering readers a bare disambiguation page with choice of two articles (island or state) is unfair as it expects them to understand why the term is ambiguous before we have an opportunity to explain why this is so. There is plenty of room within the Ireland article to explain and elaborate upon this ambiguity, which would lost in a disambiguation page which could only server to confuse rather than to educate.
I would just like to clarify 3 points.
Ireland can be used to refer to many different things, but is mainly used to refer to either the island or the modern state. Ambiguity exists for this term.
Using the term Republic of Ireland to refer to the modern Irish state causes division among editors and, regardless of the reasons or the rights and wrongs, has resulted in much disruption and edit warring over a wide range of articles. To avoid future disruption, a binding agreement from both sides is required.
Having reach read through the statements made so far by others, it seems to me that there may be some disagreement not just on the naming of the articles but on some points which editors on both sides of the argument consider to be fundamental.
I am therefore making this statement as a series of short propositions, in an attempt to measure support for each of them.
My hope is that the responses here will help us to identify any fundamental disagreements, as well as to hopefully find many points of agreement. I have restricted this list to thirteen propositions, and I do not claim that it covers a particularly wide range of topics. Please consider it as an experiment.
"Ireland" is the name of an island in Europe which lies in the Atlantic ocean to the north-west of continental Europe.
"Ireland" is the name of an independent state which covers approximately five-sixths of the island called "Ireland".
The English-language name of the state is defined in Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, which says in full: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."
The description of the state is defined in law as "the Republic of Ireland", by Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, which says in full: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."
Off topic text added by
Snowded was removed from this section by
Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see
[8].
The phrase "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the 26-county state, either in statute law or in the constitution
The official name of the state is the same as the name of the island
The following statement was true in 1998: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
The following statement was true in 1798: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
The following statement has always been false: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"
An event which happened in Belfast in 1890 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland
An event which happened in Belfast in 2008 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland
A person born in the Bogside area of Derry in 1950 was born in Ireland
When Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Omagh ceased to be a town in Ireland
It seems to me that many of these statements would get more support and or opposition if they were shorter. This applies particularly where they present perceived facts and then arrive at possible arguable potential conclusions.
Ireland should only be used as the page that describes the 26 county state.
"Ireland" is a proper noun that can refer to two things: an island and a contemporary state:
Both senses of the word "Ireland" can be described as a being a "country". Only the sense of the word that means the state can be described as being a "state".
In most cases, use of the term "Ireland" can be assumed to mean the island. E.g.:
There are some areas when "Ireland" should be understood unequivocally to mean the state e.g. a "citizen of Ireland" means a citizen of the sate by that name, 1937-present. These circumstances are limited to areas that, by their context, can be understood to refer to the business of contemporary state and its apparatus.
When necessary to distinguish between the two "Ireland"s, alternative terminology is used to refer to the state (e.g. "Éire", "Republic of Ireland", "the Republic", "the 26 counties", "the south"). No alternative terminology is used to disambiguate the island, which is always called "Ireland". (Rarely from the clarifier, "the island of Ireland", is used for emphasis.)
The article on the island, is the 252th most linked to article on Wikipedia (20,756 links). Last month, the article on the island as viewed 325,538 times making it the 467th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.
The article on the state is the 797th most linked to article on Wikipedia (7,672 links). Last month, the article on the state as viewed 132,571 times making it the 1,877th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.
(See Special:MostLinkedPages and stats.grok.se.)
1. Ireland is the name of the island west of Great Britain.
2. Ireland is the official name of the sovereign state that occupies 5/6 of the above island.
3. There are two primary different meanings of the word 'Ireland' both of which are equally acceptable and correct.
4. Republic of Ireland is not an official name of the sovereign state called Ireland.
5. Republic of Ireland is an acceptable disambiguator on articles where there is obvious potential confusion as the term "Ireland" can be used many different times in many different ways in such articles. eg.
Ireland (island),
Northern Ireland,
History of Ireland etc.
6.
Island of Ireland is also a potentially acceptable disambiguator that can be used to differentiate the two main "Irelands".
7. However, use of Republic of Ireland in articles where it is obvious it is the sovereign state being referred to, could be seen as misleading as it may cause a reader of Wikipedia to wrongly interpret that Republic of Ireland is the/an official name of the state.
The name of the state has been a matter of vigorous contention between the Irish government and the government of the United Kingdom. Among those contested names were Eire and 'Republic of Ireland'. Since the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement, those terms, as names, are deprecated by the UK government in favour of 'Ireland'. Use of 'Republic of Ireland' as a name for the state, or by extension, a Wikipedia article about the state, is not value neutral.
ed. per User:BrownHairedGirl's suggestion I have decided to split up the points so that editors can decide to support or oppose on a point-by-point basis. Sorry about the mess. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 19:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This is my second statement. It attempts to condense down my core opinions relating to the naming dispute, and addresses issues about how to refer to the Irish state and the island away from the core articles, currently named Ireland and Republic of Ireland.
It is important to inform readers that the official name of the Irish state is Ireland, but this point does not have primacy over all other issues relating to Ireland-related articles.
Readers should be able to tell, without guesswork or prior knowledge, whether or not an article they're reading relates to the island, the state or to Northern Ireland.
It should not be necessary for every article relating to Ireland to address the naming dispute or explain what the article means when it says "Ireland".
This is self-evident.
A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article on the state must reside on the page titled after the official name of that state and that this should supplant the article on the island.
A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article should reside at Republic of Ireland as the use of the state's own official description is a workable counter to the ambiguity.
A certain group of users has proposed an "equal misery" compromise whereby disambig tags are added after the title (Ireland (Island) and Ireland (state).
The debate rears its head at periods ranging from weeks to months, but won't go away, despite a lack of consensus for a change. This is a content dispute, and therefore usually outside Arbcom's remit, but an Arbcom resolution might at least put an end to this for once and for all.
A characteristic of the debate has been polls conducted in sometimes unusual places, including a task force apparently set up to decide the issue, which hasn't always advertised itself and its polls as well as it might.
There seems to be an article missing.
What with all this talk of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] , people seem to have forgotten that there is also a country called Ireland. Not the 26 county state either, the country called Ireland that existed prior to partition.
So will the birthplace of Michael Collins be piped as [[Ireland (island)|Ireland]]? Seems ridiculous to me, he was born in a country called Ireland not just on an island.
Perhaps those in favour of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] will let things go back to how they used to be, when people’s birthplaces were piped as [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Ireland]]? But this was discussed already, and the same doesn’t happen with England, Scotland or Wales so why should Ireland be piped that way? Ireland did not cease being a country with the Act of Union, and neither did England, Scotland or Wales.
So are those in favour of moving the moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] in favour of creating an [[Ireland (historical country)]] article? If not, how else are you going to fix the problems you create.
As for the rest I don’t really care one way or another, too much time has been wasted fighting political battles when far more constructive things could have been done. As such I have no intention of getting involved in the pointless bickering, save for me pointing out the rather substantial flaw in the plans of some people.
I requested in my original Collaboration Statement here that editors provided supporting evidence of the term "Ireland" being ambiguous. To date, only User:Rockpocket has made any attempt to do so. User:Rockpocket provided three sources, none of which support the contention that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous.
Thank you User:Rockpocket for providing the above links.
Ireland is an internationally recognised country which is very clear and unambiguous, supported by the above referenced sources. No source has or can be provided which challenge this fact. Based on the above, the country article on Ireland should be simply that, “Ireland.”
The article titled “Republic of Ireland” should be about the descriptive term for the country and the history of the term, and should not contain or duplicate the information from the Ireland article.
“Republic of Ireland” should not be pipe linked when referring to Ireland, as is the case with the EU outlined above. When referring to Northern Ireland, in Ireland related articles it should be linked accordingly.
The only place were the term "Ireland" is considered ambiguous is on Wikipedia, and it should be addressed because its ridiculous.
The term " Republic of Ireland" as the name for the 26-county state has been repeatedly used by the Oireachtas. It is therefore wrong to suggest that it is some sort of imposition by those outside Ireland or that its use on wikipedia breaches the Wikipedia's principle of neutrality.
In several statute laws, not only has "Republic of Ireland" been used as the name of the state, but "Ireland" has actually been as meaning "The Republic of Ireland", e.g.
The phrase "Republic of Ireland" has also been used in many other contexts in Acts of the Oireachtas and in statutory instruments. A Google search for the phrase "Republic of Ireland" returns 114 hits. Not all of those will be unique, but the documents returned include both Acts of the Oireachtas and Statutory instruments.
The term "Republic of Ireland" continues to be used by govt bodies and others. See for example:
It is also used by commercial bodies and other non-state entities:
The dispute over the primary article subject for the term "Ireland" has raged for years. Both supporters of the Island, and those who support having the State at under this title, have provided numerous lines of evidence in support of either argument. These include Ghits, historical precedence, legal and constitutional support, scholarly preference, self reference and comparison to other Wikipedia articles. Some arguments are convincing, others less so. Ultimately, without a quantitative metric to evaluate which line of evidence is more important, we are left with qualitative interpretations.
If one thing is clear from this dispute, it is that qualitative value lies entirely in the eyes of the respective beholders, and there is no incentive to shift that value system. Given this, there will be no consensus based on qualitative interpretation. Given that, there will never be agreement on a primary topic. Therefore, it seems self evident that the only solution that could ever reach significant consensus is a disambiguation. I therefore propose that The content of the page called "Ireland" is a simple (short) disambiguation page (solution C). Rockpocke t 20:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It could refer to the island, it could refer to the state, it could refer to someone with the surname Ireland, and I'm sure there are other uses too. Without knowing the context of the search, someone entering "Ireland" into a search engine, including Wikipedia's, could be looking for any of the above.
Someone using "Ireland" as a search time is more probably looking for information on the island or on the state than the other uses of the term. However, between island and state, there is no established primary topic. I would hazard a guess that more people would be referring to the state than the island when talking about "Ireland", but that is just a guess.
Both the island and the state have alternative English names.
"Doing what we've always done because that's the way we've always done it" is not the Wikipedia way. We are striving to make the best encyclopaedia possible, and when it comes to decisions like this, that means ignoring the current situation and trying to figure out what the best way of doing things is, and then make the necessary changes. In other words, any argument along the lines of "changing the status quo would take a lot of work, so let's not do it" shouldn't be admissible here. We're looking to do what's best for our readers, not what's easiest for us.
People get incredibly passionate about the name of their country and how their country is represented. It's that passion that has brought us to this situation. The lesson to learn from this is that people place more importance on what their nation is called than on what the lump of rock their nation sits on is called. So if either the state or the island has to take precidence, and if all other things are equal (and I'm suggesting they are), then I would argue that the state holds a bigger claim to the name "Ireland" than the island does.
People feeling passionately about something is, rightly, rarely a consideration on Wikipedia. In fact, rules like WP:CENSOR show that such things aren't really to be considered at all. But WP:IAR says that if the rules are getting in the way of improving the encyclopaedia then ignore them. So if putting the state article at "Ireland", or making "Ireland" a disambiguation page, stops the disruption we've seen then let's do it: it would improve the encyclopaedia.
The problem is, that last "if" is quite a big one too; personally, I think the probability is fairly low that the disruption would simply stop by moving the state article to "Ireland", so this consideration is a minor one in relation to assertions 1-4.
If there was a single primary topic, then that should reside at Ireland with a hatnote to a disambiguation page. But there is no primary topic (or, more precisely, there are two primary topics).
Ignoring assertion 5 for a moment, if precisely one of the primary topics had a commonly used alternative name, and the other didn't, then it would be reasonable to have the article with no alternative name at Ireland and the other article given the commonly used alternative name. But in this case, both entities have commonly used alternative names, so there's still no way to decide which, if either, should sit at "Ireland". If we bring assertion 5 into play, the argument for having the state article at Ireland carries more weight than having the island article there - but that weight is insufficient to tip the balance away from the need for Ireland to be a disambiguation page. Indeed, assertions that "Republic of Ireland" is a more common alternative for the state than "Eire" et al are for the island may be enough to put the balance firmly in the centre, meaning that having a disambiguation page at Ireland is the only way forward.
(A) Page contains "The island of Ireland"
Presentism should be avoided. The primary meaning of "Ireland" is clearly the larger, island unit. The 26-county unit has been in existence for less than one hundred years compared with the island's existence for many millennia. Indeed, the 26-county unit takes its name from the larger, island unit.
People generally who talk about Ireland usually mean the island. Someone "going to Ireland" does not generally distinguish between North and South. Someone from Northern Ireland who says that he is from Ireland will not generally be mistaken as coming from the 26-county state, but will generally be understood as coming from the island of Ireland.
People from, and places and things in, Northern Ireland are no less part of Ireland than are people, places or things in the 26-county state.
The use of "Ireland" to mean 26 counties rather than the whole island is not only offensive to unionists in Northern Ireland, but also to many Northern nationalists: In 2008, Sinn Féin MLA Barry McElduff wrote to all TDs and Senators in the Republic of Ireland to complain about the 26-county state using "Ireland" to refer only to the 26 counties: "I suppose I am doing it to challenge partitionism – this notion that the 26 counties constitutes Ireland. I find it very offensive. Even in the EU I hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Sometimes they talk about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I’d call it geopolitical speak. [1]
Using "Republic of Ireland" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland is supported by eight points:
However, use of "Republic of Ireland" as an article name is opposed because:
Point 1 of the opposing argument is countered by points 3, 4 and 5 of the supporting arguments: the phrase was developed by the Irish government, approved by the Irish parliament, and is in use in Ireland, both officially and unofficially. Countering these points is the argument that, despite its mention in Irish law, the phrase is nevertheless still perceived as offensive by some Irish editors.
Using "Ireland (state)" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland would use the official name of the state coupled with a simple disambiguator. In favour of this option are:
However, this option is opposed by four points:
On the adoption of 1A, C or D: Republic of Ireland contains "The state of Ireland"
Why make up a term that no-one uses? "Republic of Ireland" is in regular use, unlike "Ireland (state)", "Ireland (country)" or any of the other suggestions. "Republic of Ireland" is a statutory "description" of the state, which effecitvely is an alternative name. Note that it is written in the legislation as a name (i.e. capitalised): Republic of Ireland. If it were literally a description it would simply say "Ireland is a republic". It's the obvious alternative term to use.
The word "Ireland" is both the name of the island and the name of the modern state whose jurisdiction extends to only 26 of the 32 counties of that Ireland. As a result the word is ambiguous in its modern usage, both in terms of geography and of legal jurisdiction.
Luckily, there is a widely-used and understood term which resolves any ambiguity relating to the state. "Republic of Ireland" is defined in the Republic of Ireland Act as the description of the state, and this is widely used both in general usage and by the state itself: that official usage in Ireland includes Acts of the Oireachtas, Statutory instruments, and current usage by government departments.
This usage is important not just in the naming of the main article on the Republic of Ireland, but also in the naming of hundreds of related articles on issues relating the government of Ireland. No alternative formulation has been offered which removes the ambiguity inherent in phrases such as "taxation in Ireland", "roads in Ireland", or "social welfare in Ireland": all of those subjects differ on opposite sides of the border, but the ambiguity can be resolved easily by using a simple formulation:
The problem is not solely that there is no alternative naming system on offer, but that some of those opposing the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" deny that any ambiguity exists. As one example, see this discussion on my talk page with an editor who insisted that the phrase "Elections in Ireland" ambiguously refers to post-1922 elections in the 26-county state, ignoring the elections to the pre-1801 Parliament of Ireland, elections from 1801-1922 (when Ireland was United under British rule) and elections in Northern Ireland. From that example, it is clear that failure to retain the phrase "Republic of Ireland" to the refer to the 26-county state will have widespread consequences for our ability to retain unambiguous names for such articles in the face of editors who claim (as in that discussion) that pointing to the distinctions is, as I was told, "attempting to introduce ambiguity to a subject where none exists".
This issue affects not only articles. There are also thousands of categories, which are currently organised under Category:Ireland (for 32-county issues), Category:Northern Ireland (for 6-county issues since 1921), and Category:Republic of Ireland (for 26-county issues since 1922). This naming structure is clear and simple, and it works, but if the head article Republic of Ireland is renamed, the category system will become an anomaly.
For these reasons, retaining the name "Republic of Ireland" for the modern 26-county state is the least-worst option available.
On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:
Then, and only then, I propose:
Why? Because the name of the state is "Ireland". Since this proposal only applies on the event it has been decided "Ireland" will be used for another purpose, we need to find an alternative. Of those, "Ireland (country)" could be interpreted in a wider sense to refer to the entire island, and thus is ambiguous. "Ireland (republic)" is a possible alternative, but could lead so some confusion with the historical Irish Republic. "Republic of Ireland" is clearly been used as a description of the state, at least by some. But it is also clear that there is a significant demographic within Ireland that object to this term for historical and geopolitical reasons. Therefore in the interest of compromise and recognizing the principle of self identification, I suggest this title not be used if a less controversial alternative is available. This leaves "Ireland (state)". The major argument against this is that "state" could be misinterpreted (as in State (administrative division)). I acknowledge this caveat, but propose that it is not as big a concern as the other issues described above.
On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The state of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.
An article describing the geography, geology, history and peoples of the entire island of Ireland should either be at "Ireland" or "Ireland (island)". The debate over which of these two alternatives should be used focuses on:
1. whether or not there is a primary meaning of the term "Ireland"
2. whether or not the primary meaning, if there is one, is the island.
On the adoption of 1B, C or D: Ireland (island) contains "The island of Ireland"
Country is ambiguous. Island is not.
On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:
Then, and only then, I propose:
Why? Because the alternative, "Ireland (country)", is hopelessly ambiguous.
On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The island of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.