Concerto delle donne (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Concerto delle donne

• Featured article review/Concerto delle donne/archive1

Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notice 2023-02-10

This 2006 FA was nominated by an editor who has made one Wikipedia edit since 2013, and has not edited the article since 2007. The article has no main watchers and has not been maintained to standard. The article was notified last year for original research, over-reliance on single sources, MOS issues, and citations needed. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Did some urgent fixes and will park these lists of sources to use here. It seems like Newcomb 1980 is available at a local library. That's for sourcing & completeness; someone more adept that me will need to handle MOS problems. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 11:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Did some expansion. Newcomb 1980 seems to be the most comprehensive source on the group, so I can see why he would be the main source. Stras 2018 seems to be a bit more generally discussing the music scene in Ferrara, rather than a detailed analysis of the concerto delle donne. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 09:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Jo-Jo Eumerus, starting to try to catch up ... where does this stand; do you think the article meets comprehensiveness? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I think it passes on comprehensiveness, keeping in mind however that I only considered sources that show up on Google Scholar. There are some bits in the page source that need further thought. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 12:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The additions look great, thanks Jo-Jo! I recall working on this for a bit but stepping back due to time commitments. Hopefully I can look throughout it more next week... am thinking that the biggest issues right now are source References formatting and the rather poor lead. Aza24 (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Aza24 are you going to be able to look at this, or should we be moving to FARC? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Yes I think so. Give me till the end of the weekend—if I don't get to it by then we can move it FARC. Aza24 (talk) 06:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Looking at this today – Aza24 (talk) 22:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Looked at it a bit today. I still have more cleanup to do, but at the moment these are the issues I see remaining (this list is for my own personal use as well)

• Needs many more reference to Stras
• A few missing citations still (one is marked), about cross dressing, the ballet etc.
• Probably need a collage pic of the Duke and Duchess in the beginning of history
• Emphasis on Luzzaschi and near absence of anyone else may be undue, I'm not sure
• Note b needs to be expanded to include the similar contradiction from Pendle and Grove
• Music section is a bit of a mess; badly organized and laid out. The composers
• Really needs an image of sheet music (which I can engrave and then upload)
• I don't think Yarris is a "high quality source"
• Similar doubts about Kuhn
  • Looked at this further and believe its high quality enough – Aza24 (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC) reply
• There is a great long-ish quote from Vincenzo Giustiniani (in Burkholder) which could go in quote box for the Influence section
• Lead needs a complete rewrite, including the names of important composers and singers
• Minor clean up matters regarding linking first mentions (& overlinking) and giving translations to Italian terms
• Overall, I think there are two main issues:
  • Rewrite of the music section
  • I think the whole article will have to be recontextualized a little. Too much emphasis on the Ferrera court and practically none in comparison for the equivalent ensembles at Mantua, Florence, etc. Britannica's article is (surprisingly) a good model in this regard Aza24 (talk) 06:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  It seems like the Wikipedia Library is down, so I can't do anything about Stras or the other concerti or the citation tag at the moment. I looked for an image of Duke and Duchess, but apparently there are only separate images. It seems like Monteverdi is more commonly mentioned than Luzzaschi in sources, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 09:25, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  No worries! I have a PDF of Stras (which I can send?—email me if so) that I'm planning to add from. For the Duke/Duchess I meant a collage (double) image, which I've just added. – Aza24 (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Can't do anything before tomorrow, sorry. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 19:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Began to work a bit with Stras. I am going to warn folks that since musicology is very far from my areas of knowledge/interest, I am perhaps not the person to ask for a proper due weight evaluation. I got as far as p.167 in Stras. I've asked at WP:RX for one source for the crossdressing thing. Does anyone have access to this book? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 07:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  I just found a PDF. If you email me I can send it to you. Aza24 (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Are you up for rewriting the music section? This is a topic on which I understand essentially nothing. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 17:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC) reply

  Yes I think so. Was looking into what that would consist of earlier – Aza24 (talk) 20:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC) reply

  Aza24 where does this stand? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC) reply

  Should hopefully be able to work on it this week. Back from vacation now. I think its definitely trending towards a positive direction Aza24 (talk) 05:35, 1 August 2023 (UTC) reply

  Aza24? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC) reply

  Uhhhhhhh, sorry I am getting v distracted. I assure you all this is still on my radar Aza24 (talk) 05:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC) reply

• @ Aza24: ? Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:01, 2 September 2023 (UTC) reply

  At work in my sandbox – Aza24 (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC) reply

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 03:22, 7 October 2023 (UTC) reply

  Need the music and lead sections rewritten, seems like. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 14:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC) reply

  Aza24 could we get this one wrapped up soon? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC) reply

  Going by the notice on their userpage, they won't be able to for a month. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 22:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC) reply

• Does anyone know about anyone else who is familiar with these music topics? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 18:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Not anyone well versed with FAR; Aza24 perhaps we should consider moving on here ? It's six months now ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  @ SchroCat and Ssilvers: might you suggest an editor who can take this on? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Sorry, no idea. Are there any musicians on WP who have researched different madrigal styles? You could ask at the classical music project. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  They were notified; only Aza24 came forward. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:43, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Tim riley would be a possible, except he's on something of a break at the moment. I'll drop him a line to see if he has either the knowledge or inclination. - SchroCat ( talk) 20:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Thank you so much; there is User:Aza24/sandbox to contemplate. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 20:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Unfortunately not one for Tim. As he puts it, "music started with Bach, and anything earlier doesn't figure". - SchroCat ( talk) 20:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  I guess in that case we should wait until Aza24 is more active. If nothing's happening still, we should proceed to FARC. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 08:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• @ Aza24: Are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria ( talk) 05:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Will have another go in the coming days – Aza24 (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Looks like a rewrite is underway at User:Aza24/sandbox. @ FAR coordinators: I wonder if we can collapse the aforementioned bullet points about who is available, for better readability. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 09:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply

• Suggest moving to talk. Nikkimaria ( talk) 14:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC) reply

  Asked Aza about the sandbox. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 07:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Aza24:? Nikkimaria ( talk) 19:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Stalled. Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I've set aside some time next weekend to work on it. Aza24 (talk) 23:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Almost done with refiguring the music section in my sandbox Aza24 (talk) 18:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  At work again this weekend Aza24 (talk) 16:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  Music section has been rewritten/reorganized; new paragraph added to the new "background section". At this point, the Roster and duties, as well as influence sections just need some touch ups—though more so on the former section. Aza24 (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  I've given a go at rewriting the lead. Aza24 (talk) 19:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ Nikkimaria @ Jo-Jo Eumerus, I think I've given all I can to this article. The topic interest me, but I find too distracted by other WP commitments.

  I think the article is fine where it stands now, but am happy to hear the input of any others. Aza24 (talk) 06:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  Is Yarris still a problem? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 14:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  I think Yarris is okay. Most of her citations are used in addition to others, so if other reviewers disagree, they could be fairly painlessly removed. Aza24 (talk) 18:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  I don't see any obvious issue, but this is a topic I am not very familiar with. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 08:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC) reply

• I decided to reach out to Laurie Stras, an expert on this topic, and she has kindly agreed to give feedback via email about possible improvements/errors. She said she's on vacation at the moment, but has promised to look soon. Looks like this should all be wrapping up soon. Aza24 (talk) 07:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  She pointed out some factual mistakes, which I've now fixed. She also said that although the article is heavily influenced by somewhat older scholarship (Newcomb 1980), it is generally suitable for a general encyclopedia. She expressed some hesitancy over citing Yarris, which I previously found questionable. I'm thinking all of the Yarris refs need to be replaced. Aza24 (talk) 06:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  It seems like many of the claims sourced to Yarris can be found in other sources, going by Google Scholar. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 08:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 03:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC) reply