Conditional oppose—I am finding basic grammatical errors in the prose. In addition, there is redundancy and awkward phrasing. With that said, I am willing to withdraw my oppose once all my concerns have been addressed.
Lead
- "The group was dissatisfied with the sound of their 1973 self-titled debut album, which led frontman David Johansen to enlist veteran producer Shadow Morton for Too Much Too Soon."—awkward use of "which", which is strictly used to refer to the noun preceding the comma, but not here. Perhaps "The group's dissatisfaction with the sound of their 1973 self-titled debut album led frontman...".
- That seems like a mouthful though. How about "so" instead of "which", as in "The group was dissatisfied with the sound of their 1973 self-titled debut album, so frontman David Johansen enlisted..."
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- The word "enthused" is far too inaccessible to be considered plain, elegant English. How about "motivated"?
- Sure. Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "...as a personal challenge" is vague and unclear.
- I disagree. The music industry wasn't satisfying him anymore, so he wanted to challenge himself.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I think removing the word "personal" removes some of the vagueness as "personal challenge" can often mean illness, injury, etc. What do you think? Feel free to argue otherwise.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 14:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- No, that makes sense. Done @
Wikipedian Penguin:.
Dan56 (
talk) 23:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... while Morton incorporated a large amount of studio sound effects and female backing vocals in his production."—"amount" should be "number", but the entire phrase can be condensed to "many".
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "acclaimed" comes off as too strong a word when there were a few noteworthy negative reviews of the album.
- How about "Acclaimed by most critics"?
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Fair enough, though I would have used "praised" or "favoured", although they may be too mild for this album's reception in particular.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 14:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Background
- "He was also more familiar with New York City..."—I don't understand the importance of this point.
- Understood. Removed it.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... and wanted to challenge himself with the band"—awkward, unprofessional wording.
- Would this be better: "...wanted to challenge himself by producing the band's second album"
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Perfect.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 14:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Recording and production
- "... incorporated sounds effects such as gongs, gunshots, and feminine choruses to the songs."—should be "in the songs".
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... journalist Lenny Kaye wrote
at the time that "they're [were] taking more time [than they had on their debut album], bringing in occasional strings and horns"—removals are in strikes and additions are in italics
- revised it to "...wrote that they were taking more time than they had on their first record, 'bringing in...'"
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... while Johansen was fond of Morton and the 'looser' feel he provided their music on Too Much Too Soon"—need "for" after "provided". And I don't think "on Too Much Too Soon" is necessary here.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... and had to record both cover songs and re-record some of the band's earlier songs in order to complete Too Much Too Soon"—the placement of "both" here indicates that it is modifying "record", so "re-record" is unneeded and incorrect.
- Understood, removed.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "They also recorded demos of two songs written by guitarist Sylvain Sylvain, 'Teenage News' and 'Too Much Too Soon', before working with Morton..."—since this was before their work with Morton, it should be "They had also recorded".
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- More coming.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 17:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Music and lyrics
- "album of hard rock" -> "hard rock album"?
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Music journalist Nina Antonia critiqued that because of the band's 'untamable wildness'..."—use of "critiqued" here is awkward. How about "wrote" or "commented"?
- Sure.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "...the songs still sounded eccentric in spite of attempts by Morton to 'polish' their sound..."—"in spite of" can be condensed down to "despite".
- Okay.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "...such as subduing their otherwise unrefined guitar playing."—missing "by" before "subduing".
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "...Archie Bell's 1969 hit 'There's Gonna Be a Showdown'..."—if it were a hit wouldn't it have a Wikipedia article. Was it really a "hit"?
- It's a 50 year old single by a soul singer, so doubtful lol. According to the book by Gimarc cited here it was, as well as
All Music Guide to Soul
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "On the novelty cover songs, Johansen impersonates
different characters such as the high-stepper in 'Showdown' and Charlie Chan in 'Bad Detective', whose nonsensical narrative is set in China."—removal in strikes; furthermore, I'd say it's best to use the full song name for "Showdown" here, since it's the first instance the track is mentioned.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "'Stranded in the Jungle' suggested a theme of 'clashing cultures and the dilemma of preserving one's uniqueness while reaching out to others'."—"suggested" should be present tense.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Do not link inside quotations, as per the Manual of Style. For the French quote, I suppose you can provide the English translation in parentheses instead.
- MOS says to avoid doing so "as much as possible", not necessarily to avoid it always.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "in a way similar to" -> "similarly to"?
- Ok.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Is there anything on "Who Are the Mystery Girls" that could be discussed in this section so that we have a complete track-by-track overview?
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Yes, I added "On 'Who Are the Mystery Girls?', he scolds those who misuse love by wanting to 'kick it on the floor' and 'beat it like a scatter rug'. Other than that, not really.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Release and promotion
- The current caption of the music sample does not sufficiently explain why the snippet is useful for understanding the subject. Samples are meant to illustrate the sound of a song, so you should focus on that.
- Understood. I've looked at Antonia's book and added more, particularly from
this page, discussing how the singles were more polished studio version of previously unrefined live concert staples for the band.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Likewise, in the file page of the sound sample, Joe Gross's quote is described as referring to "Stranded in the Jungle", but in the article, it is used as a general quote to describe the album as a whole.
- Ditto.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Much of Jon Savage's quote can easily be paraphrased and as a result we can avoid linking inside the quotes.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "For its front cover, the group eschewed the drag image of their first album in favor of a fake concert shot."—why is it noteworthy that they eschewed the drag image of their first album? It's obvious that they wouldn't reuse the cover of a previous album; who does?
- They had a reputation in general for wearing drag on-stage. Clarified.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Too Much Too Soon was another commercial failure for the New York Dolls, as it only charted at number 167 on the Billboard 200."—I never brought this up when it appeared in the lead, but that seems like a very subjective assertion, because No. 167 on the Billboard 200 can be interpreted as a success as well.
- I assume Gimarc took into consideration factors like the record label, money put into the Dolls by the label, and expectations. Other sources seemed to say the same (
[3]), and I've never heard of that low position being interpreted as success tbh. I'll add the source from the link in this comment.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "It ultimately sold less than 100,000 copies."—"ultimately" here is redundant, as is "of them" in "...but neither of them charted".
- Removed.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "They also embarked on their second tour of the United States, which was marred by cancelled shows, escalating drug and alcohol addictions, and internal strife."—(1) "drug" is inclusive of "alcohol"; (2) the sentence is vague overall (Whose addictions? Whose internal strife? What is meant by internal strife?)
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I added Hermes' source to clarify all the band members had drinking problems, and previous parts of the article make note of specific drug addictions (Kane and alcohol, Nolan and Thunders with heroin, etc.), so I think the reader will get the point. They all led to conflicts among band members. None of the sources specify what those conflicts were but it doesn't leave much to the imagination considering the problems they had. I specified "hard drugs" to avoid getting into whether alcohol is a drug or not.
Dan56 (
talk) 04:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Alcohol's classification as a soft drug is debatable. Why not simply "addictions to alcohol and other drugs"?
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 14:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Ok.
Dan56 (
talk) 17:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "... accommodating radio audiences with toned-down studio versions of songs the band had performed live in more rowdier fashion."—I understand what you're trying to say, but "in more rowdier fashion" comes off as awkward sounding.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 14:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Would "...songs the band had performed more rowdily in concert" be better?
Dan56 (
talk) 17:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Yep.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 23:55, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Critical reception
- "Too Much Too Soon was acclaimed by music critics upon its release."—(1) see above RE "acclaimed" (2) "music" is redundant, as what other kinds of critics would typically review a music album? (3) linking not needed (4) archaic use of the word "upon"; perhaps remove the "upon its release" expression altogether?
- Ok.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Creem magazine's Robert Christgau said the polished sound reproduction retains their raw qualities..."—the use of "retains" here sounds strange for some reason. I would have used something like "maintains" or "preserves". Also, the use of "their" is ambiguous. Maybe "the band's"?
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Robert Christgau is already mentioned and linked above. Unlink here and remove first name.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Robert Hilburn, writing in the Los Angeles Times, argued it is a markedly better-produced album..."—ambiguous "it", and "markedly" is barely crossing POV boundaries.
- Replaced with album title, removed "markedly".
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Ron Ross from Phonograph Record magazine said the group's 'easy going ironic sensibility' is expressed 'far more amusingly and accessibly [here]' than on their debut."—debut what? Album I'm assuming.
- Added "debut album".
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Some reviewers were critical of Too Much Too Soon for what they felt was an insufficient and overproduced sound."—what is an "insufficient ... sound"?
- The source called it "underdone" to be exact. I replaced it with "poorly recorded".
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Richard Cromelin of the Los Angeles Times included Too Much Too Soon on his list of favorite records from the decade..."—awkward to use "on his list" with "included". I suggest "in his list".
- Ok.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Legacy and influence
- "Along with the New York Dolls' debut, Too Much Too Soon became among the most popular cult albums in rock music."—debut what?
- "Debut" is also used as a noun, short for "Debut album". I'll add "self-titled debut" so "album" is repeated in this sentence.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- That doesn't disambiguate the term because for all we know, it could be short for debut single, and their debut single was eponymous. I'd suggest just using the album title itself.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 17:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "When it was reissued by Mercury in 1987, Don McLeese of the Chicago Sun-Times wrote that Morton's production highlighted the New York Dolls' sense of humor and was rendered 'in vivid detail' by the CD reissue, but felt the album was still marred by inconsistent material and rated it lower than their first album."—awkward repetition of "reissue" and "album".
- Replaced "reissue" with "remaster", split into two sentences.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I reduced the quoted material.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- You can keep "instant classic", as paraphrasing that to "masterpiece" is a bit far.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 17:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Ok.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "He believed that, although Johansen's best original songs are on the debut"—also, first comma is not necessary.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
See also
- I don't understand the relevance of the links to this article. Perhaps give a brief note in parentheses next to the link?
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 23:55, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 01:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- For the timeline link, it would be wise to note that Too Much Too Soon is included in the list.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 17:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Second read—additional comments before concluding review.
- Why not?
Dan56 (
talk) 19:42, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Everyone knows New York City; it just seems like
WP:OVERLINK IMO.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- OK, done.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Dan, after reviewing
MOS:WTW, I found that "acclaim" is considered a
WP:PEACOCK term and agree with this. Can we use a milder alternative?
- I don't think that's the point of WP:PEACOCK, to address the tone or strength of words ("milder" for instance) because I've used "acclaim" in numerous other FA and GA articles where a number of sources backed that word up. WP:PEACOCK also lists "
hit", which is just a stupid example. In this case, however, Gimarc is the only source who uses "acclaim", so I'm inclined to agree with you when there are a few others who use something milder. Replaced it.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Good point and I am satisfied with the change.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "'Babylon', 'Who Are the Mystery Girls?', 'It's Too Late', and 'Human Being' were first recorded by the band in March 1973 as demos for Mercury."—was this before they enlisted Morton? If so, it should be "...had been recorded by the band...". Also, what is meant by "for Mercury"?
- Added "had". Demos often function as previews of a band for a record label.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "They had also recorded demos of two songs written by guitarist Sylvain Sylvain, "Teenage News" and "Too Much Too Soon", before working with Morton, but neither were ultimately considered for the album."—"ultimately considered for" -> "included on"?
- The songs were given consideration.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Sylvain recalled confronting a hasty Morton about the decision..."—by decision, do you mean dropping "Teenage News" and "Too Much Too Soon" from the album? If so, then "this decision" would be clearer.
- No, the decision to not even consider them for the album.
Dan56 (
talk) 19:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Sorry, that's what I meant. Yes, "this decision" would be clearer.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- More coming.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 18:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Thunders held a doll in his arm as if to strike it against his guitar to add an element of shock value."—I think "an element of" is just added fluff and could be removed to tighten the prose.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 23:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "It was marred by cancelled shows and escalating addictions to alcohol and other drugs that led to conflicts between the band members."—sentence needs to be slightly redrawn because right now, it could be interpreted as the drugs leading to conflicts, not the addictions to the drugs. Minor point, but important for unambiguous and clear prose.
- Rephrased: "It was marred by cancelled shows and conflicts between the band members stemming from their escalating addictions to alcohol and other drugs."
Dan56 (
talk) 23:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- the group's "easy going ironic sensibility" is expressed 'far more amusingly and accessibly [here]' than on their debut album."—words in brackets at the end of quotes can just go outside the quotes.
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 23:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Don Waller of the Los Angeles Times believed the underappreciated album was just as much an "instant classic" as New York Dolls in a review at the time."—when exactly is "at the time"?
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 23:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Around the time of its reissue. I replaced it with "in a review of its reissue".
Dan56 (
talk) 23:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I'm still not convinced that the rationale and caption for the song sample is sufficient. For instance, was there any commentary on the instrumentation or vocal performance of this song? We need more detail. Otherwise, it is of appropriate length and quality.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 15:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I made a mention of Morton incorporating additional feminine vocals, which ties into Gross' point about background choruses.
Dan56 (
talk) 16:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- A few of the band members in the portrait face to the right, so I think it'd be best to have the image positioned on the left side of the article. The way it is now, there's an ugly amount of white space turning up on my screen.
- That may have been from the "clear" template, which I've
removed. Do you still see white space?
Dan56 (
talk) 22:06, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I don't, but the positioning of the image is still against MOS. Shift it to the left, and bring the quote box over to the right.
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 23:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I just replaced it.
Dan56 (
talk) 23:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Just a nitpick (feel free to ignore) but having the bibliography in a certain column width would look nicer: perhaps 50em?
The
Wikipedian
Penguin 20:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Done.
Dan56 (
talk) 22:06, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
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