The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot ( talk) 06:07, 31 May 2016 [1].
This article is about Norodom Sihanouk, the central figure in the history of Modern Cambodia. He is regarded as the founding father of the country, having secured Cambodia's independence from French rule in 1953. Sihanouk was Cambodia's monarch, Head of State, Prime Minister and resistance leader, serving in these different capacities throughout different periods of Cambodia's tumultuous history, plaqued by civil war and political intrigue in the 20th century. All are welcome to appraise or critique as deemed necessary. Thanks! ... Mr Tan ( talk) 11:30, 5 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Oppose
Hi, thanks for your comments.
1. Which images are the ones that have issues? I believe that Freedom of Panaroma occurs when lets say, for example, you take the image File:Elections 40365 02072008.jpg, which is taken by User X, and he releases it as CC. Then User Y crops it and claims it to be released into File:Sam_rainsy.png, which is then evidently as you said "Freedom of Panaroma. All pictures as I have checked are from direct sources - though if you can point out the picture(s) in question, I"ll be glad to look into them.
2a. I agree with your concern on the infobox. (PS: I wasn't the creator of the infobox.) I thought it was fine leaving them, since it outlines Sihanouk's appointments - they're unfortunately long as he alternately took up and resigned from his political offices many times. What do you suggest that I do with them - remove one of them?
2b. I believe your concern is about his life before Sihanouk was crowned in 1941. There are a couple of sources that describes his childhood years, but I feel that it would be more advisable to keep it short, as according to the sources, were of a very personal and intimate nature. They basically talked about his relations with his parents, elderly members of the household, and his academic performances at school. Which I thought were not really notable, and it would be wiser to keep it to the schools that he had attended. (PS: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion). I had also considered the issue that the article is about 100kB in length, and hence it would be more ideal to focus on the more important areas of his life - which typically starts after he became King in 1941.
3/4. Will look into them. Would you mind pointing out areas of the prose that you feel needs improvement? It"ll be good if you list them out here, or go ahead to Copyedit where you feel necessary. (I"ll look through them again on my part as well.) Mr Tan ( talk) 08:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC) reply
1. I understand that you mentioned that Cambodia does not have freedom of panorama based on the article's infographic. I accept that, but I would really need you to advice if: a. This is the picture in question - File:Elections 40365 02072008.jpg; or if there are any other pictures in the article that share this problem b. If this (or additional) pictures are indeed problematic, then should I just remove from the article and possibly sent it for deletion
2. On hindsight, I think it would be wiser to leave the content of the infoboxes as it is. I agree with the concern of your length, and had considered removing one of the infoboxes, or trying to shorten it by removing some content. I think neither is a good idea, but I've made some measures to shorten it:
I believe that both measures shorten the length of the infoboxes significantly - interested users can click "show" to see more details. However, it would be very difficult to shorten any further, as I think it is important to bear in mind that Sihanouk had a long and varied career.
3. I've expanded his early life, as you have pointed out previously. However, it is not possible to expand any further, as his official biography only dedicated about 2 pages out of 70 on his pre-king life. Another source, written by Osborne dedicated only one chapter on this, out of a total of around fifteen, but even then half the content was about Cambodia's history rather than the personal details of his life. I think we need to keep in mind that he became king at 19, and definitely it is an event that took place very early in his life. I'm of the opinion that specialised details of his life, such as Sihanouk learning to play "clarinet, saxophone, piano and accordion" should be kept to the "Music" section of his biography. Otherwise, that section may end up too thin in content.
4. I've spent the past seven days copyediting on prose and grammar, and I hope I have improved the state of the article. (If there are any areas that I might have missed out which you spotted, please feel free to make the fix where you deem necessary).
I hope all issues are sufficiently addressed (including #1). However, if there are any additional areas that needs to be worked out further, I hope you can pinpoint the area that needs redress, and I"ll be glad to look at them again with you. Mr Tan ( talk) 06:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Overall I think this prose is probably fixable but there are grammatical errors - generally involving the use of commas as subordinate clauses. I have fixed what I have found but suspect there are more. Generally I miss some after one or two passes. Some odd grammar as well. I think this needs someone else to check as well. I will look later after a rest from it as I tend to lose sensitivity after a while.
I wonder if there is more criticism or critical assessment of his ruling style overall that can be placed in the article. I am not familiar with Cambodian politics enough to speak authoritatively on this though.
Anyway, will be back later. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 20:05, 21 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Hi, Mr Tan. It was my pleasure to dig into this very fascinating article. In the article, I made 15 edit sessions starting here; mostly MoS and aesthetic stuff. I also fixed a couple of reference errors.
I made two edits to refine the infoboxes starting here. I am not sure why some of the parameters are not displaying properly, even though they are filled out properly.
At 9500 words, this is among Wikipedia's longer articles. I would suggest a mild trim. I did no significant prose edits at this stage. I will be happy to !vote on this article when it is closer to being tightened up. Cheers! {{u|
Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
01:30, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
reply
{{
US$}}
templates. Cheers! {{u|
Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
05:43, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
reply
Oppose – I wish that I didn't find myself in this position. We could always use more FAs on statesmen, and the article certainly appears comprehensive. Unfortunately, the quality of the writing is a bit of a letdown. There were copy-editing templates at the top of the article the last couple of days, but whoever worked on it didn't catch everything, as the following examples demonstrate:
While I think you've done a lot of great work to bring the article to this point, I'm picking out errors in most places that I'm looking at. I only read pieces of the latter half of the page, so I'm sure there are more issues lurking in the parts I didn't read. You're not going to like hearing this, but I feel like the best course of action would be to withdraw the FAC and start another peer review. The secret of PR is that you should go out and ask for input, rather than hoping that somebody stumbles into the article and takes an interest in it, which doesn't happen often enough these days. Try inviting the editors who have commented here, and seek out views from an editor of featured political biographies such as Wehwalt or Coemgenus, who would give you more useful feedback on the content than I can provide. As for this FAC, even with the copy-editing that has taken place the prose still has issues, and I doubt that you will be able to receive enough support for promotion at this time as problems are still being found. Sorry I can't give you better news, but I have to call FACs as I see them or I wouldn't be doing my job as a reviewer. Giants2008 ( Talk) 22:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Closing comment -- Sorry, I know the nominator has worked to address comments above but, as Giants has said, there may be further issues to be identified and addressed, and when a review has been open almost four weeks we expect things to have progressed much further towards consensus to promote. I'm therefore going to archive the nom and echo the suggestion to put the article through PR before considering a return here. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 06:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC) reply
The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot ( talk) 06:07, 31 May 2016 [1].
This article is about Norodom Sihanouk, the central figure in the history of Modern Cambodia. He is regarded as the founding father of the country, having secured Cambodia's independence from French rule in 1953. Sihanouk was Cambodia's monarch, Head of State, Prime Minister and resistance leader, serving in these different capacities throughout different periods of Cambodia's tumultuous history, plaqued by civil war and political intrigue in the 20th century. All are welcome to appraise or critique as deemed necessary. Thanks! ... Mr Tan ( talk) 11:30, 5 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Oppose
Hi, thanks for your comments.
1. Which images are the ones that have issues? I believe that Freedom of Panaroma occurs when lets say, for example, you take the image File:Elections 40365 02072008.jpg, which is taken by User X, and he releases it as CC. Then User Y crops it and claims it to be released into File:Sam_rainsy.png, which is then evidently as you said "Freedom of Panaroma. All pictures as I have checked are from direct sources - though if you can point out the picture(s) in question, I"ll be glad to look into them.
2a. I agree with your concern on the infobox. (PS: I wasn't the creator of the infobox.) I thought it was fine leaving them, since it outlines Sihanouk's appointments - they're unfortunately long as he alternately took up and resigned from his political offices many times. What do you suggest that I do with them - remove one of them?
2b. I believe your concern is about his life before Sihanouk was crowned in 1941. There are a couple of sources that describes his childhood years, but I feel that it would be more advisable to keep it short, as according to the sources, were of a very personal and intimate nature. They basically talked about his relations with his parents, elderly members of the household, and his academic performances at school. Which I thought were not really notable, and it would be wiser to keep it to the schools that he had attended. (PS: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion). I had also considered the issue that the article is about 100kB in length, and hence it would be more ideal to focus on the more important areas of his life - which typically starts after he became King in 1941.
3/4. Will look into them. Would you mind pointing out areas of the prose that you feel needs improvement? It"ll be good if you list them out here, or go ahead to Copyedit where you feel necessary. (I"ll look through them again on my part as well.) Mr Tan ( talk) 08:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC) reply
1. I understand that you mentioned that Cambodia does not have freedom of panorama based on the article's infographic. I accept that, but I would really need you to advice if: a. This is the picture in question - File:Elections 40365 02072008.jpg; or if there are any other pictures in the article that share this problem b. If this (or additional) pictures are indeed problematic, then should I just remove from the article and possibly sent it for deletion
2. On hindsight, I think it would be wiser to leave the content of the infoboxes as it is. I agree with the concern of your length, and had considered removing one of the infoboxes, or trying to shorten it by removing some content. I think neither is a good idea, but I've made some measures to shorten it:
I believe that both measures shorten the length of the infoboxes significantly - interested users can click "show" to see more details. However, it would be very difficult to shorten any further, as I think it is important to bear in mind that Sihanouk had a long and varied career.
3. I've expanded his early life, as you have pointed out previously. However, it is not possible to expand any further, as his official biography only dedicated about 2 pages out of 70 on his pre-king life. Another source, written by Osborne dedicated only one chapter on this, out of a total of around fifteen, but even then half the content was about Cambodia's history rather than the personal details of his life. I think we need to keep in mind that he became king at 19, and definitely it is an event that took place very early in his life. I'm of the opinion that specialised details of his life, such as Sihanouk learning to play "clarinet, saxophone, piano and accordion" should be kept to the "Music" section of his biography. Otherwise, that section may end up too thin in content.
4. I've spent the past seven days copyediting on prose and grammar, and I hope I have improved the state of the article. (If there are any areas that I might have missed out which you spotted, please feel free to make the fix where you deem necessary).
I hope all issues are sufficiently addressed (including #1). However, if there are any additional areas that needs to be worked out further, I hope you can pinpoint the area that needs redress, and I"ll be glad to look at them again with you. Mr Tan ( talk) 06:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Overall I think this prose is probably fixable but there are grammatical errors - generally involving the use of commas as subordinate clauses. I have fixed what I have found but suspect there are more. Generally I miss some after one or two passes. Some odd grammar as well. I think this needs someone else to check as well. I will look later after a rest from it as I tend to lose sensitivity after a while.
I wonder if there is more criticism or critical assessment of his ruling style overall that can be placed in the article. I am not familiar with Cambodian politics enough to speak authoritatively on this though.
Anyway, will be back later. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 20:05, 21 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Hi, Mr Tan. It was my pleasure to dig into this very fascinating article. In the article, I made 15 edit sessions starting here; mostly MoS and aesthetic stuff. I also fixed a couple of reference errors.
I made two edits to refine the infoboxes starting here. I am not sure why some of the parameters are not displaying properly, even though they are filled out properly.
At 9500 words, this is among Wikipedia's longer articles. I would suggest a mild trim. I did no significant prose edits at this stage. I will be happy to !vote on this article when it is closer to being tightened up. Cheers! {{u|
Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
01:30, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
reply
{{
US$}}
templates. Cheers! {{u|
Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
05:43, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
reply
Oppose – I wish that I didn't find myself in this position. We could always use more FAs on statesmen, and the article certainly appears comprehensive. Unfortunately, the quality of the writing is a bit of a letdown. There were copy-editing templates at the top of the article the last couple of days, but whoever worked on it didn't catch everything, as the following examples demonstrate:
While I think you've done a lot of great work to bring the article to this point, I'm picking out errors in most places that I'm looking at. I only read pieces of the latter half of the page, so I'm sure there are more issues lurking in the parts I didn't read. You're not going to like hearing this, but I feel like the best course of action would be to withdraw the FAC and start another peer review. The secret of PR is that you should go out and ask for input, rather than hoping that somebody stumbles into the article and takes an interest in it, which doesn't happen often enough these days. Try inviting the editors who have commented here, and seek out views from an editor of featured political biographies such as Wehwalt or Coemgenus, who would give you more useful feedback on the content than I can provide. As for this FAC, even with the copy-editing that has taken place the prose still has issues, and I doubt that you will be able to receive enough support for promotion at this time as problems are still being found. Sorry I can't give you better news, but I have to call FACs as I see them or I wouldn't be doing my job as a reviewer. Giants2008 ( Talk) 22:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC) reply
Closing comment -- Sorry, I know the nominator has worked to address comments above but, as Giants has said, there may be further issues to be identified and addressed, and when a review has been open almost four weeks we expect things to have progressed much further towards consensus to promote. I'm therefore going to archive the nom and echo the suggestion to put the article through PR before considering a return here. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 06:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC) reply