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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot ( talk) 6 July 2024 [1].

Lewis W. Green

Nominator(s): PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I am excited to bring you my fourth FAC on a president of Centre College, this one about the school's fifth president and one of two members of its first graduating class. A skilled minister and educator, Lewis W. Green was president of Hampden–Sydney College in Virginia where he increased their enrollment and endowment and declined offer after offer from numerous other schools. After seven years there he departed for Kentucky's Transylvania University, though he stayed just over a year before returning to lead his alma mater. His five-plus-year term saw the outbreak of the Civil War and the school's use as a field hospital for both sides of the conflict at separate times. He died in office in 1863 after visiting injured soldiers and falling sick, and was buried a walking distance away from Centre in Bellevue Cemetery. Any and all comments and feedback, as always, are much appreciated! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
@ Nikkimaria alt text added. Do you think the little sculpture on the gravestone counts as an architectural work? I'm having trouble finding the applicable copyright category for it. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 06:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The whole stone would be a sculptural work. Nikkimaria ( talk) 00:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Nikkimaria I'm not able to find a copyright template for sculptures separately so I have used {{ PD-US-expired}}; does this suffice in this instance? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 02:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Yep. Nikkimaria ( talk) 02:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Ajpolino

Interesting article on a topic I knew nothing about. Minor comments at first readthrough. Will return for more, hopefully soon.

  • "Green left Kentucky after a short time once again, this time in 1840..." suggest shortening to "Green again left Kentucky in 1840..." (or just "Green moved to Pittsburg..." or something like that)
  • "board of trustees in short order."
  • "institutions was Transylvania, who recruited" should it be "which recruited" since Transylvania is not a person (even though it's obviously standing in here for people associated with the school)?
  • "After being elected president of Centre College in August 1857, Green accepted the position following his departure from Transylvania and entered office in January 1858." seems a lot of words to communicate something like "Green was elected president of Centre College, and took up the position in January 1858."
  • "Kentucky as a consequence of being elected to teach at Centre" a bit clunky. Suggest "Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre"
  • "The pair spent two weeks... Ullmann, and Wilhelm Gesenius." makes it sound like husband and wife both studied under these theologians. True? Or was it just husband?
  • "he made the decision to emancipate his..." shorten to "he emancipated his..."?
  • "go Green decided to free them..." shorten to "go Green freed them..."?
  • "he recovered in a short time and was soon after back to preaching" had to read this twice to understand. Could we simplify to something like "he soon recovered and returned to preaching"?
  • "devote himself in a full-time role to preaching" shorten to "devote himself to preaching full-time" (or something like that)?
  • "He was a popular professor and preacher among students and rarely were there large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty" this reads oddly. What are you trying to get across with the second part? Seems like most schools would rarely have "large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty".
  • "in August 1851 he was successful... slavery in Washington, D.C." also odd to read. What does it mean to be "successful in debating" something?
  • What does "being withdrawn from the benefits of the... charter" mean?
  • "It took until the 1954 election... for Hampden–Sydney to conduct an outside hire for president again." is this relevant? Maybe they just had internal candidates they happened to like for many years. It's not clear this belongs in a biography of Lewis Green.
    • I guess I felt like it showed that he was a sought-after leader who was a kind of exception to a norm for HSC - if you think it isn't relevant enough I can remove it though.
  • "on which occasion he delivered an address which was untitled." is this important?
  • "he led a campaign in support of the temperance movement and gave a lecture to the same effect." - do we need the note about the lecture? Seems like that could be considered part of his "campaign".
  • "During this first year... the 1857–1858 academic year." not sure this is necessary information, especially since the school will be dissolved in the next sentence.
    • I have clarified that the first "the school" mentioned in the sentence was Transy, not just the normal school - I think a picture of how Transy was doing in the midst of this reorganization is relevant enough especially considering Green's time at the school was, in a way, defined by this period of change
  • "His inaugural address was given on..." I'm not an anti-passive-voice person, but this instance seems to cry out to be reformulated to "He gave his inaugural address on..."
  • "By April, just months after he had taken office, he was named..." don't need this clause – we remember his term start was January from just two sentences earlier.
  • "this was a position he held until..." could be slightly snappier as "he held this position until..."
  • "due to the Civil War and its proximity to Centre" due to the school's proximity to Centre? Or do to the Civil War's proximity to Centre (so to speak)?
  • "The college did not reopen until October 27 and thirteen days of classes were ultimately lost." seems unnecessarily repetitive, especially emphasizing a relatively short gap (I expected to read that the college remained closed until the war's end).
  • "main building, was still occupied; at one point" perhaps this sentence should say it was occupied and being used as a hospital. Then the next sentence wouldn't seem such a surprise.
  • " autopsies in progress on their way to a professor's office" very strange way to end the section on his career. Perhaps the sources allow another sentence or two on Green's role during the civil war, and his involvement in the hospital operations that (presumedly) led to his death?
  • "Green is a member of the..." right before this, it would fit nicely to note that he and Lawrence (I assume) had X children together (two?) so it doesn't come as a surprise that one married into a political family.
  • "This period of illness... biographer Leroy Halsey." suggesting moving this up a half-sentence so that it precedes "he died...".
@ Ajpolino: Thank you for the review! I won't have a ton of time with my computer this weekend so I am hoping to address your comments by tomorrow or Monday - apologies for the delay. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 16:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino: I believe everything has been changed or responded to (save for one thing)! Thanks again! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino I added a sentence about what he was doing at the school and in town during this time, is there anything else you'd recommend there? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Pardon my absence! I'll take another readthrough in the next few days, and then I expect to support. Ajpolino ( talk) 17:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Hi Ajpolino, how is this one coming along? Gog the Mild ( talk) 17:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks for the prod. Should be able to get back to this in the next 24 hours. Pardon the delay. Ajpolino ( talk) 20:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Round two (final round, no doubt), all small things:

  • Not a huge deal, but several sentences in the first paragraph of the lead are very long and easy to get lost in. If you could shorten or split one or two of them, that would enhance the readability.
  • "Some time after returning" Seems an unnecessary distinction for the lead.
  • "oriental literature and biblical literature"
  • "Around this time, he was being considered for the vacant presidency of Hampden–Sydney College and was unanimously elected to the position by the board of trustees." it reads odd to include these two moments – (1) Him being considered, followed by (2) him being elected – when you don't do the same for the other positions. Is this important? Slows the flow of the paragraph.
    • I guess I included it just because it was explicitly present in the source; I don't think it's necessary to specify that he was being considered (especially because it goes right on to say that he was being elected) so I removed that part of the sentence. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "In addition to being president, he"
  • "Kentucky General Assembly, though the bill" this might be a good place to break a long sentence into two (and remove "though"; and possibly reword since the antecedent of the following "it" is mildly unclear).
    • Split and changed "it" to "the normal school"
  • "Green elected president" I think a word got lost here.
  • "much of Centre's firsthand experience in the" seems an unimportant distinction for the lead; also rings odd to my ear for a town to have a "firsthand experience".
  • "came from Duncan F. Robertson and Joshua Fry" a weird detail to read without context. Do we know anything about these two men? Are they schoolteachers? Famous classicists? Wanderers?
    • A previous version of the article used the Halsey quote that they were "renowned teachers" though this quote was removed after a recommendation from another reviewer, which I agreed with. Alone, I agree, the names don't really mean much, so I removed that clause, which I think sounds a little more crisp. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "suffered a "malignant fever", according to the biographer Leroy Halsey," feels strange to include a direct quote for something so matter of fact. Could we just say he was seriously ill for two weeks and nearly died, dropping the fact that Halsey called it a "malignant fever"?
  • "and also enrolled" seems redundant?
  • "He did ultimately return" → "He ultimately returned" flows better to my ear, though perhaps that's just a matter of personal preference.
  • "He was first licensed as" seems obvious from the context.
  • "where they heard lectures..." I alluded to this above, but the cited source only says he (rather than "they") attended lectures.
  • "and he resigned his teaching positions at Centre in order to moved to Hanover, Indiana, so he could accept the new job" this is obvious in context and doesn't need stating.
  • "He returned to Danville having completed his stint at Hanover at the conclusion of the 1838–1839 academic year and upon his arrival was elected vice president of Centre College" - Had to read this twice to understand. Suggest untangling the Hanover part from the Danville part. Something like "At the conclusion of the 1838-1839 academic year, he completed his stint in Hanover and returned to Danville. Upon his arrival, he was elected..."
  • "In May 1840, soon after taking up these positions at Centre, Green was called" unneeded; the timeline is fresh in our head's from a couple sentences earlier.
  • "Western Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania" our article suggests the seminary could have been in nearby Washington, Pennsylvania at that time. The source just says "Alleghany, Pennsylvania" (the county that Pittsburgh, but not Washington, is in -- not sure if it has always been that way). Could you just have a look and make sure "in Pittsburgh" is correct?
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves, who technically belonged" → "the 25 to 30 slaves, who belonged..." not to absolve him of responsibility with the removal of "his", but rather to remove "technically" which seems unnecessary and grates a bit to my ear.
  • "inheritance,[17] since he could not take them to Pennsylvania and have them remain enslaved and did not want to leave them enslaved." Already a complex sentence, and this end bit doesn't add much meaning. Suggest cutting it.
  • "Green freed them while allowing them to remain..." → "Green freed them and allowed them to remain" could be personal preference, but the "while allowing" reads oddly to me.
  • "... Maryland, in order to take up the pastorate of that city's Second Presbyterian Church as part of a desire to and devote himself to preaching full-time." - shorter and avoids the (I think) awkward "as part of a desire"
  • "the beginning of his pastorate in Baltimore" → "his arrival"
  • "He ultimately decided to resigned"
  • "even so, according to Leroy Halsey... new church edifice." I think this is slightly rosier than what the cited source says. Halsey says "in consideration of his failing health and consequent removal from the pastorate" the trustees removed released him from this $1000 pledge. Not sure this episode really merits inclusion either way, but if you do keep it consider slightly rewording, and removing the explicit attribution to Halsey (unless you doubt the incident occurred and want it attributed?).
    • Yeah, now that I reread the source I must have misinterpreted it or at least made it a little cuter than it actually was. Decided to remove it altogether since it doesn't serve the function in the narrative that I thought it did. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 22:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "had already begun considering him" → "were considering him"?
  • "January 10, 1849,[27][25] at which he delivered a speech to the board of trustees.[28] During this speech he called for" suggest consolidating into "January 10, 1849. In a speech to the board of trustees, he called for..." to reduce repetition.
  • "professors as several of his main "
  • "as a way of campaigning for well-roundedness of students to be a priority of the college" could be personal preference, but this reads smoother to me unwound as "as a way of campaigning for the college to prioritize well-roundedness of the students."
  • "the year after,[32] and the school's" suggest splitting this sentence here.
  • "much of the faculty, was a " seems like a word got lost from this sentence.
  • "It was during Green's presidency... becoming their own institution." suggesting moving this up to the paragraph about the institution during Green's presidency (i.e. immediately following "further increases in funding". Also suggest shortening it to something like "During Green's presidency, a disagreement between the faculty of the Richmond Medical College (now the VCU Medical Center) and the Hampden–Sydney Board of Trustees that oversaw them resulted in the effective separation of the institutions." Maybe the source supports something more artful. The current level of detail seems unnecessary to Green's biography.
  • "declined an later offer"
  • "As there were many in Kentucky who wanted him to accept the position, he traveled to Lexington" - we get the same sense from the next part of the sentence, which says he was received enthusiastically.
  • "was next to occupy" → "occupied"
  • "It took until the 1954 ... hire for president again" I still think this is irrelevant and may not reflect on Green at all; though I'm hesitant to push for this if no one has an issue with it but me.
  • " according to the Transylvania historian John Wright Jr., by large majorities" do we need to explicitly call out the historian who wrote this? Seems like uncontroversial fact for us to repeat with only citation for credit.
  • "though not without some physical trouble." can you expand on or clarify this at all? Halsey suggests Green overworked himself to infirmity; though Halsey says a lot on this topic, and I admit to skimming parts.
  • "done so,[71] and Green was" suggest splitting this sentence here.

@ Ajpolino: Apologies that it took me so long to work through these - I believe everything has been addressed. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 00:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply

No worries at all. Currently traveling but should be back online in a couple days. Will be happy to do the source review then if Generalissima doesnt have time. Ajpolino ( talk) 19:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Caught a bug traveling; go figure. On the mend. Comments and that promised source review by the end of the weekend. Best, Ajpolino ( talk) 23:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino all good! Hope you get to feeling better soon. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Gave it a final readthrough and am happy to support this nomination. Excellent work, and an enjoyable read. Ajpolino ( talk) 11:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Source review by Generalissima

Oh, obscure 19th century American figure? This is exactly my wheelhouse. I'll look through these sources in a little bit. Generalissima ( talk) (it/she) 17:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Generalissima courtesy ping, if you're still interested in having a look. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Generalissima Gog the Mild ( talk) 13:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Hi Generalissima, I would be grateful if you could let me know if a source review is on the way? Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 14:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I hope you don't mind, I'll drop into this subsection to do a source review. The article leans most heavily on Halsey's biography, Probably the only substantial biography of Green. It was published by a major firm and written by a contemporary of Green's who was a professor and Presbyterian preacher (I gather). We can guess Halsey would be predisposed to present Green in a positive light (though he assures us in his preface that he "has not aimed to eulogize, but to present a true picture of the man and the minister"). That said, it's almost certainly the best source that exists on Green. As long as you're not finding it regularly contradicted by other sources, I'm sure it's fine. Other sources are more straightforward:

  1. Baker - From a major publisher, written by a historian, and used only to support material that falls directly under the book's topic.
  2. Brinkley - Written by a Hampden–Sydney professor (described in obits as "the college historian") about Hampden–Sydney. Used largely to support Hampden-Sydney-era info that it's likely to be reliable on.
  3. Weston and Wright - Analogous to Brinkley but for Centre College and Transylvania respsectively. Bonus point to Wright, who was a professional historian. Regardless, I think both are fine here.
  4. Sanders article - Author is staff at the Kentucky Historical Society and writes on similar topics regularly.
  5. CentreCyclopedia - Couldn't find out much about this publication, but it's a short biography published under Centre College's purview. Seems fine.

Optionally, you could do us all a small service by linking to The National Cyclopedia... article. It's on Internet Archive. This UPenn library page says it was published in 1895, and the Internet Archive copy has that data printed in it. Flagging it in case our reference should be updated. Is listing White as the article's author appropriate? It's the publisher's name. The book gives little detail on who authored the articles. An identifier would also be nice. It looks like OCLC # is 1049877836 (from the Internet Archive page) or 656312787 (from the WorldCat page it links to)? I see Gog the Mild recommend OCLC #s regularly, so he may know which is appropriate.

656312787 relates to the 1893 edition, not the 1892 one. Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I also spot checked some claims while I was reviewing the text (referenced in the section above) and all looked good, barring some very minor comments above. Altogether, happy to give this article a Pass on source review. It's a well put together biography built appropriately on reliable sources. Thanks again for the interesting read, and my apologies for the delay in getting this done. Best, Ajpolino ( talk) 14:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)   reply

Support Comments by Dugan Murphy

I'll write some out here. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 22:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  • The mention of "Judge John Green" without any further biographical information is frustrating to me as a reader. Is his first name Judge? If Judge is his title, can you make that clear by adding just a phrase about the circumstances of this judgeship? How did such a seemingly young person get to be a judge?
  • "renowned teachers" looks like MOS:SCAREQUOTES. If this is a quote from a person, the text needs to state attribution, per MOS:QUOTE. Same for "malignant fever", "influential gentlemen", "the whole Man", "prominent men", and "advanced stage".
  • "His first education came ... by way of" reads awkwardly to me and requires some mental gymnastics for me to understand. I recommend rewording that sentence, considering the possibility of breaking it into two sentences. It might read more like "At thirteen, he began studying Greek and Latin at a classical school".
  • Note A looks like WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. What source says he did not attain a graduate degree from another institution?
  • This sentence clause doesn't make sense: "but did not graduate from either after returning to Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre". Could you clarify?
  • The way this sentence reads, it says Green was in multiple places on one day: "preached in Danville, its surroundings, and elsewhere in Kentucky on nearly every Sunday". I don't think that's what you mean, so I recommend a rewording.
  • The last sentence of the "Professor and pastor in Danville" section contains a list of incongruous clauses: "was elected", "returned", and "appointed". You could change "returned" to "reappointed" for instance, though maybe that doesn't sound well given the last clause.
  • Wikilink Presbyterian polity#General assembly?
  • I think Manumission is a more appropriate word and Wikilink than emancipation here.
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves" would read better as "the 25 to 30 people he enslaved".
  • Is the purpose of "his move from Kentucky, a slave state, to Pennsylvania, a free state," to illustrate that Green's decision to manumit the laborers he enslaved was made for him by geography? If so, I recommend making that clear.
  • "willing to go Green" – a comma is needed after "go".
  • "freed them as they were" reads ambiguous to me. If I understand correctly, it sounds more appropriate to say "allowed them to stay in the US".
  • "he was well-loved" is an opinion that I think should be attributed.
  • Typo: "returnedf"
  • "had increased" – delete "had".
  • Political economy is WP:DUPLINKed.
  • In general, I think this article overuses the semicolon. I recommend replacing with periods in instances in which they make a sentence too long and/or the two halves of the sentences they link are not closely related.
    • Removed most and either split sentences or reworded - left a few that I think are appropriate
  • The sentence that begins "This became a theme" is too long and unwieldy, particularly because of the double-dashed "and did".
  • I'm not sure that "large majorities" needs quotation marks. It seems like a statement that we should be free to say without, given the attribution you gave.
  • Does "bringing 300 new students to the school" refer to Centre College? That kind of wording seems out of place given the previous sentences were about the Second Presbyterian Church and the First Presbyterian Church. And then the next sentence refers to something being close to Centre, so apparently we're not talking about Centre here.
    • Yes, "the school" is Centre - the next sentence is also referring to Centre (Enrollment (at Centre) declined drastically due to the Civil War and its (the Civil War's) proximity to Centre). Happy to reword if you think this is poorly written. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • It's not as specific, but I think changing "the year before the war's start" to "before the war" would make this sentence easier to read.
  • "57 two" – having these two numbers next to each other is not ideal.
  • I think "acquired more slaves; he owned ten" would read better as "enslaved more people; he enslaved ten".
    • I don't love the repetition of "enslaved"; plus, as I understand it, they were already enslaved when Green got them, as opposed to Green himself putting them into slavery. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
      • I see what you're saying about the repetition in my recommendation. How about "enslaved more people; he held ten in bondage"? What I'm going for here (and in the article's first mention of slavery) is recognizing the humanity of the enslaved, as well as Green's choice to enslave others. I am also under the impression that enslaving is not just the process of selling someone into bondage, but also the state of holding someone in bondage. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note B: I don't think the parenthetical dates are necessary. Those dates are in the inline citations.
  • Do the sources say anything about the people enslaved by Green not included here? Perhaps what they did for him? That would help in describing and humanizing them.
    • Sadly, not that I can find; I wouldn't expect a ton of information to exist about them since they were dehumanized to the maximum extent possible (i.e. not viewed as humans in the first place) in that time. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Reading page 26 of Halsey and searching in it for keywords like "slave", I can likewise see no insight into the role of the folks enslaved by Green. I'm guessing they ran his house as domestic workers. Twenty-five people seems like a lot of staff for a family of four, though Halsey does say Green came by most of these folks by inheritance, so Green may have had little contact with some of them. But that's neither here nor there if the sources are silent. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • With the exception of Bascom and Young, the predecessors and successors in the infobox are nowhere in the article. I think you should add them to the article if they're going to be in the infobox.

@ PCN02WPS: P.S. I have my own FAC nomination that doesn't have any comments yet aside from an image review. I would really appreciate if you are able to look over the article and leave some comments. That nomination is here. Thanks in advance! Dugan Murphy ( talk) 23:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC) reply

750h

  • Green again left Kentucky in 1840 to teach oriental literature and biblical criticism at Western Theological Seminary.: it tells us he left Kentucky to teach at a seminary, but it’s worth noting where the seminary is (in this case it’s Pennsylvania).
  • He was baptized at Pisgah Presbyterian Church in Versailles, Kentucky, in March 1820 alongside his brother Willis. He fell seriously ill with a fever for several weeks during his second year at the school, at one point with a slim chance of survival, though ultimately he recovered. Who fell seriously ill, Willis or Lewis?
  • He ultimately resigned his position effective October 10, 1848. I think that “on” rather than “effective” would be more concise
    • The only catch here is that he technically resigned sometime before that (Halsey says that the notice of his resignation was read at a congregational meeting on October 4), with the resignation only taking effect on the 10th. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 10:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Oh okay. 750 h+ 10:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

That’s all i got. Excellent work on the article. 750 h+ 03:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ 750h+: thanks for the review and the kind words! First two things fixed and a response for the last. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 10:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Support 750 h+ 10:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Coordinator comment

More than four weeks in and not a single general support. That would usually have me archiving the nomination. There are plenty of constructive comments, so PCN02WPS could you pick up the pace on responding to them, else this is liable to time out. Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild Yes, I will speed things up. I am traveling but will try to take what time I can to work on this - thank you (and all reviewers) for your patience. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 06:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC) reply
The nomination has now been open a month. There are still no supports. There are extensive comments from two reviewers made seven days ago which have not been addressed. "Nominators are expected to ... make efforts to address objections promptly." I appreciate that RL happens, but if all reviewer comments are not addressed within 24 hours I will archive this nomination as "actionable objections have not been resolved". Gog the Mild ( talk) 11:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Gog the Mild That is fair - I have now addressed all outstanding comments. Sorry to be an inconvenience. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 00:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Support from Gog the Mild

  • Both cites 21 and 22 contain p./pp. errors.
  • "though sources agree that the disease from which he died was contracted from these interactions" is not cited.
    • This wasn't explicitly mentioned in the sources but was rather a conclusion I drew on my own. I removed it because it's not citable and also not really necessary to go out of my way to point out given the rest of the footnote. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • The lead seems very long (472 words), especially given that the main article is fairly brief (2,351 words). I would expect the lead to be about half the length it is. Much of the lead does not seem to be in summary style. See MOS:LEADLENGTH. It also contains information not in the main article.
    • I cut some stuff out of the lead (now at just over 300), let me know if you think more needs to go.
Nice work. It is still on the lengthy side, but - IMO - acceptable. I have made a couple of tweaks, let me know here if you are unhappy with any of them will you? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "he manumitted the 25 to 30 people he enslaved, who belonged to his wife as an inheritance." This doesn't make sense. Surely they were already slaves when Green's wife inherited them, so how can Green have "enslaved" them? And you can't use "the" at first mention; have these slaves been previously mentioned?
    • I changed this wording at the request of another reviewer, who said that "enslaving" them could refer to holding them in bondage as well as putting them into bondage. The original wording was Around this time, in the midst of his move from Kentucky, a slave state, to Pennsylvania, a free state, he made the decision to emancipate his 25 to 30 slaves, who technically belonged to his wife as an inheritance. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green enslaved more people". Really? What were the circumstances of their enslavement?
    • This wording was also changed during the FAC process - the original wording mentioned his purchase of the slaves and the point of the sentence is to show that he owned slaves while at Transy/Centre but when exactly he purchased them is not known. Original wording: Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green acquired more slaves; he owned ten during his time as Centre president PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The prior wordings look fine to me. "Enslavement" (as a verb) is the act of making someone a slave - they are free prior to being enslaved and a slave afterwards. If the other reviewer has a dictionary with a different definition I would be grateful if they could cite it. Much as I would like to recommend just going back to your original wording, I think Dugan Murphy and I need to discuss this. Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Dictionary.com defines "enslave" as "to make a slave of; hold (someone) in slavery or bondage". The second half of that sentence certainly applies here and the first half likely does not, since it is very likely that the ten people in question were enslaved by someone else before they were enslaved by Green. I see what Gog the Mild is saying about the opportunity to misread that sentence to mean that Green put ten free people into bondage, which is possible but unlikely. How's this for a rewording? "Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green grew his enslaved workforce; he held ten people in bondage during his time as Centre president." Dugan Murphy ( talk) 22:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
'increased' rather than "grew" please. Otherwise "he held ten people in bondage" is a softening of 'he owned ten people as slaves' which is what I would prefer, but I can live with it. What about "he manumitted the 25 to 30 people he enslaved, who belonged to his wife as an inheritance" in the previous point? My suggestion 'he manumitted the 25 to 30 people held as slaves, who were technically his wife's property as an inheritance". Gog the Mild ( talk) 22:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Agree on "increased". Also your recommendation on the manumission sentence. My goal here is just to recognize the humanity of the people enslaved by Green, which of course isn't easy given the complete lack of information about them. And varying expectations surrounding language. Given what what little the sources say, and how they say it, it is easy to refer to the enslaved as objects and to minimize their circumstance. It is also easy to minimize the active choice made by Green to hold people in bondage against their will. But by no means is my goal to end up with a word soup that confuses the reader. Thank you for working with me and PCN02WPS on the language. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 23:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "Enrollment declined drastically due to the Civil War". When was this?
The problem is that if a reader doesn't know when the Civil War - I am guessing that this refers to the American Civil War ;-) - began they don't know when you are referring to. How about 'Enrollment declined drastically from 1861 due to the Civil War and ...' or similar?
  • "Green contracted a disease after attending to sick and injured soldiers." Could we have the date, at least the year, in the first sentence of the paragraph. Where did the attending take place?
    • Added "late May 1863". I presume the location was in Danville (I suspect in Old Centre, specifically, since I have that in the lead), though I don't believe the sources mention any specifics with respect to location in this case (I don't have them with me at the moment but I can check if you like in a couple of days). I have hidden the bit about Old Centre from the lead until I can go back and verify it.
Ah, you spotted that bit about the Old Centre in the lead but not the article huh? You can either completely leave it out or wait until you can check your sources and then, maybe, have the option of adding it to the body. It is too trivial for the lead.

PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Gog the Mild ( talk) 17:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild: thanks for taking a look! Responses above. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Looking good. Just "enslave" to sort out. I came here looking to close this after a few comments. It may be that the "few comments" push me into recusal territory. I'll ponder on't after the enslavement discussion. ( Ian Rose, any wise words?) Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Yeah, probably enough commentary from you to rate recusal, to be on the safe side. I have this on my watchlist and should be able to close. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 21:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Gog the Mild: reworded both slavery-related sentences as recommended and added clarification about the Civil War. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Part ii

Recusing to complete the review.

Tricky, do we have a start and/or end date for when he studied Hebrew at Yale ?
Unfortunately not that I can find; the sentence from the source is as follows: In accordance with this decision, he entered the Theological Seminary at Princeton, New Jersey, in the year 1831, and devoted himself with his accustomed ardor to the prescribed studies of the course. Before entering the seminary at Princeton, however, he spent some time at Yale College, giving his attention to the study of the Hebrew language, and such other departments as had a special reference to his preparation for the ministry. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "In order to learn more". In order to learn more what?
  • "Upon his arrival, he was elected vice president of Centre College, he returned to his former positions ..." This isn't grammatical. Try something like 'Upon his arrival, he was elected vice president of Centre College, and returned to his former positions ...'
  • "and he became co-pastor at Danville's First Presbyterian Church, alongside Centre president John C. Young." Suggest making this a separate sentence.
  • "he received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree". Why the initial upper-case letters?
    • I suppose I figured all degrees were given title case; the title of the article itself uses caps but that article also uses lowercase sometimes in the body. Not sure if there's an established rule somewhere but I typically use caps for degree names. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The wiki rule is only to use caps for proper nouns. There are one or two exceptions, but this isn't one of them.
Fair enough, fixed this. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "he fell ill and became weaker". Weaker than what and/or when?
    • I think I added the comparative case in there on my own; reworded to "and became weak"
  • "In mid-1848, Green was invited to Hampden Sydney, Virginia, to speak at Hampden–Sydney College". It seems redundant to state that Hampden–Sydney College was in Hampden Sydney. And he was invited to the college, not the town.
  • "the college's trustees were considering him for their presidency". This is a little clumsy. Maybe 'the college's board of trustees were considering him for their presidency'? Or do you mean 'the college's trustees were considering him for the presidency of the college'?
  • "well-roundedness". Which would be what? Is there a link?
Clever.
  • "Enrollment jumped from 27 students to 100 after his first year and again increased to 145 the year after." Suggest 'Enrollment jumped from 27 students to 100 after his first year and to 145 the year after.' A reader doesn't need to be told this is an increase.
  • "Further, he spent vacations and time away from the college recruiting potential students and securing further increases in funding." Can we avoid "further" twice in one sentence?
  • "resulted in the Medical College effectively becoming their own institution." Suggest 'resulted in the Medical College effectively becoming an independent institution' or similar.
  • "Green's teaching responsibilities were largely focused on classes for fourth-year students, such as ..." I think you mean 'Green's teaching responsibilities were largely focused on classes for fourth-year students, and included subjects such as ...'
  • "He traveled to Lexington to see the college before making a decision and was received enthusiastically." What was his decision?
  • "one such strategy involved the proposal of a 50% salary increase". You can't say "one such strategy" when you haven't previously mentioned any.
  • "in 1856 when Transylvania University, having been recently reorganized by the Kentucky General Assembly ... In March 1856, the Kentucky General Assembly passed an act which reorganized Transylvania". Do we need to be told this twice?
I agree.

Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild: everything has been fixed or responded to! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Looking pretty good. Just a couple of minor comebacks above. Gog the Mild ( talk)
@ Gog the Mild: courtesy ping for one fix and one response. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lewis_W._Green/archive1&oldid=1233044652"
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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot ( talk) 6 July 2024 [1].

Lewis W. Green

Nominator(s): PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I am excited to bring you my fourth FAC on a president of Centre College, this one about the school's fifth president and one of two members of its first graduating class. A skilled minister and educator, Lewis W. Green was president of Hampden–Sydney College in Virginia where he increased their enrollment and endowment and declined offer after offer from numerous other schools. After seven years there he departed for Kentucky's Transylvania University, though he stayed just over a year before returning to lead his alma mater. His five-plus-year term saw the outbreak of the Civil War and the school's use as a field hospital for both sides of the conflict at separate times. He died in office in 1863 after visiting injured soldiers and falling sick, and was buried a walking distance away from Centre in Bellevue Cemetery. Any and all comments and feedback, as always, are much appreciated! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
@ Nikkimaria alt text added. Do you think the little sculpture on the gravestone counts as an architectural work? I'm having trouble finding the applicable copyright category for it. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 06:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The whole stone would be a sculptural work. Nikkimaria ( talk) 00:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Nikkimaria I'm not able to find a copyright template for sculptures separately so I have used {{ PD-US-expired}}; does this suffice in this instance? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 02:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Yep. Nikkimaria ( talk) 02:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Ajpolino

Interesting article on a topic I knew nothing about. Minor comments at first readthrough. Will return for more, hopefully soon.

  • "Green left Kentucky after a short time once again, this time in 1840..." suggest shortening to "Green again left Kentucky in 1840..." (or just "Green moved to Pittsburg..." or something like that)
  • "board of trustees in short order."
  • "institutions was Transylvania, who recruited" should it be "which recruited" since Transylvania is not a person (even though it's obviously standing in here for people associated with the school)?
  • "After being elected president of Centre College in August 1857, Green accepted the position following his departure from Transylvania and entered office in January 1858." seems a lot of words to communicate something like "Green was elected president of Centre College, and took up the position in January 1858."
  • "Kentucky as a consequence of being elected to teach at Centre" a bit clunky. Suggest "Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre"
  • "The pair spent two weeks... Ullmann, and Wilhelm Gesenius." makes it sound like husband and wife both studied under these theologians. True? Or was it just husband?
  • "he made the decision to emancipate his..." shorten to "he emancipated his..."?
  • "go Green decided to free them..." shorten to "go Green freed them..."?
  • "he recovered in a short time and was soon after back to preaching" had to read this twice to understand. Could we simplify to something like "he soon recovered and returned to preaching"?
  • "devote himself in a full-time role to preaching" shorten to "devote himself to preaching full-time" (or something like that)?
  • "He was a popular professor and preacher among students and rarely were there large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty" this reads oddly. What are you trying to get across with the second part? Seems like most schools would rarely have "large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty".
  • "in August 1851 he was successful... slavery in Washington, D.C." also odd to read. What does it mean to be "successful in debating" something?
  • What does "being withdrawn from the benefits of the... charter" mean?
  • "It took until the 1954 election... for Hampden–Sydney to conduct an outside hire for president again." is this relevant? Maybe they just had internal candidates they happened to like for many years. It's not clear this belongs in a biography of Lewis Green.
    • I guess I felt like it showed that he was a sought-after leader who was a kind of exception to a norm for HSC - if you think it isn't relevant enough I can remove it though.
  • "on which occasion he delivered an address which was untitled." is this important?
  • "he led a campaign in support of the temperance movement and gave a lecture to the same effect." - do we need the note about the lecture? Seems like that could be considered part of his "campaign".
  • "During this first year... the 1857–1858 academic year." not sure this is necessary information, especially since the school will be dissolved in the next sentence.
    • I have clarified that the first "the school" mentioned in the sentence was Transy, not just the normal school - I think a picture of how Transy was doing in the midst of this reorganization is relevant enough especially considering Green's time at the school was, in a way, defined by this period of change
  • "His inaugural address was given on..." I'm not an anti-passive-voice person, but this instance seems to cry out to be reformulated to "He gave his inaugural address on..."
  • "By April, just months after he had taken office, he was named..." don't need this clause – we remember his term start was January from just two sentences earlier.
  • "this was a position he held until..." could be slightly snappier as "he held this position until..."
  • "due to the Civil War and its proximity to Centre" due to the school's proximity to Centre? Or do to the Civil War's proximity to Centre (so to speak)?
  • "The college did not reopen until October 27 and thirteen days of classes were ultimately lost." seems unnecessarily repetitive, especially emphasizing a relatively short gap (I expected to read that the college remained closed until the war's end).
  • "main building, was still occupied; at one point" perhaps this sentence should say it was occupied and being used as a hospital. Then the next sentence wouldn't seem such a surprise.
  • " autopsies in progress on their way to a professor's office" very strange way to end the section on his career. Perhaps the sources allow another sentence or two on Green's role during the civil war, and his involvement in the hospital operations that (presumedly) led to his death?
  • "Green is a member of the..." right before this, it would fit nicely to note that he and Lawrence (I assume) had X children together (two?) so it doesn't come as a surprise that one married into a political family.
  • "This period of illness... biographer Leroy Halsey." suggesting moving this up a half-sentence so that it precedes "he died...".
@ Ajpolino: Thank you for the review! I won't have a ton of time with my computer this weekend so I am hoping to address your comments by tomorrow or Monday - apologies for the delay. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 16:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino: I believe everything has been changed or responded to (save for one thing)! Thanks again! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino I added a sentence about what he was doing at the school and in town during this time, is there anything else you'd recommend there? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Pardon my absence! I'll take another readthrough in the next few days, and then I expect to support. Ajpolino ( talk) 17:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Hi Ajpolino, how is this one coming along? Gog the Mild ( talk) 17:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks for the prod. Should be able to get back to this in the next 24 hours. Pardon the delay. Ajpolino ( talk) 20:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Round two (final round, no doubt), all small things:

  • Not a huge deal, but several sentences in the first paragraph of the lead are very long and easy to get lost in. If you could shorten or split one or two of them, that would enhance the readability.
  • "Some time after returning" Seems an unnecessary distinction for the lead.
  • "oriental literature and biblical literature"
  • "Around this time, he was being considered for the vacant presidency of Hampden–Sydney College and was unanimously elected to the position by the board of trustees." it reads odd to include these two moments – (1) Him being considered, followed by (2) him being elected – when you don't do the same for the other positions. Is this important? Slows the flow of the paragraph.
    • I guess I included it just because it was explicitly present in the source; I don't think it's necessary to specify that he was being considered (especially because it goes right on to say that he was being elected) so I removed that part of the sentence. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "In addition to being president, he"
  • "Kentucky General Assembly, though the bill" this might be a good place to break a long sentence into two (and remove "though"; and possibly reword since the antecedent of the following "it" is mildly unclear).
    • Split and changed "it" to "the normal school"
  • "Green elected president" I think a word got lost here.
  • "much of Centre's firsthand experience in the" seems an unimportant distinction for the lead; also rings odd to my ear for a town to have a "firsthand experience".
  • "came from Duncan F. Robertson and Joshua Fry" a weird detail to read without context. Do we know anything about these two men? Are they schoolteachers? Famous classicists? Wanderers?
    • A previous version of the article used the Halsey quote that they were "renowned teachers" though this quote was removed after a recommendation from another reviewer, which I agreed with. Alone, I agree, the names don't really mean much, so I removed that clause, which I think sounds a little more crisp. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "suffered a "malignant fever", according to the biographer Leroy Halsey," feels strange to include a direct quote for something so matter of fact. Could we just say he was seriously ill for two weeks and nearly died, dropping the fact that Halsey called it a "malignant fever"?
  • "and also enrolled" seems redundant?
  • "He did ultimately return" → "He ultimately returned" flows better to my ear, though perhaps that's just a matter of personal preference.
  • "He was first licensed as" seems obvious from the context.
  • "where they heard lectures..." I alluded to this above, but the cited source only says he (rather than "they") attended lectures.
  • "and he resigned his teaching positions at Centre in order to moved to Hanover, Indiana, so he could accept the new job" this is obvious in context and doesn't need stating.
  • "He returned to Danville having completed his stint at Hanover at the conclusion of the 1838–1839 academic year and upon his arrival was elected vice president of Centre College" - Had to read this twice to understand. Suggest untangling the Hanover part from the Danville part. Something like "At the conclusion of the 1838-1839 academic year, he completed his stint in Hanover and returned to Danville. Upon his arrival, he was elected..."
  • "In May 1840, soon after taking up these positions at Centre, Green was called" unneeded; the timeline is fresh in our head's from a couple sentences earlier.
  • "Western Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania" our article suggests the seminary could have been in nearby Washington, Pennsylvania at that time. The source just says "Alleghany, Pennsylvania" (the county that Pittsburgh, but not Washington, is in -- not sure if it has always been that way). Could you just have a look and make sure "in Pittsburgh" is correct?
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves, who technically belonged" → "the 25 to 30 slaves, who belonged..." not to absolve him of responsibility with the removal of "his", but rather to remove "technically" which seems unnecessary and grates a bit to my ear.
  • "inheritance,[17] since he could not take them to Pennsylvania and have them remain enslaved and did not want to leave them enslaved." Already a complex sentence, and this end bit doesn't add much meaning. Suggest cutting it.
  • "Green freed them while allowing them to remain..." → "Green freed them and allowed them to remain" could be personal preference, but the "while allowing" reads oddly to me.
  • "... Maryland, in order to take up the pastorate of that city's Second Presbyterian Church as part of a desire to and devote himself to preaching full-time." - shorter and avoids the (I think) awkward "as part of a desire"
  • "the beginning of his pastorate in Baltimore" → "his arrival"
  • "He ultimately decided to resigned"
  • "even so, according to Leroy Halsey... new church edifice." I think this is slightly rosier than what the cited source says. Halsey says "in consideration of his failing health and consequent removal from the pastorate" the trustees removed released him from this $1000 pledge. Not sure this episode really merits inclusion either way, but if you do keep it consider slightly rewording, and removing the explicit attribution to Halsey (unless you doubt the incident occurred and want it attributed?).
    • Yeah, now that I reread the source I must have misinterpreted it or at least made it a little cuter than it actually was. Decided to remove it altogether since it doesn't serve the function in the narrative that I thought it did. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 22:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "had already begun considering him" → "were considering him"?
  • "January 10, 1849,[27][25] at which he delivered a speech to the board of trustees.[28] During this speech he called for" suggest consolidating into "January 10, 1849. In a speech to the board of trustees, he called for..." to reduce repetition.
  • "professors as several of his main "
  • "as a way of campaigning for well-roundedness of students to be a priority of the college" could be personal preference, but this reads smoother to me unwound as "as a way of campaigning for the college to prioritize well-roundedness of the students."
  • "the year after,[32] and the school's" suggest splitting this sentence here.
  • "much of the faculty, was a " seems like a word got lost from this sentence.
  • "It was during Green's presidency... becoming their own institution." suggesting moving this up to the paragraph about the institution during Green's presidency (i.e. immediately following "further increases in funding". Also suggest shortening it to something like "During Green's presidency, a disagreement between the faculty of the Richmond Medical College (now the VCU Medical Center) and the Hampden–Sydney Board of Trustees that oversaw them resulted in the effective separation of the institutions." Maybe the source supports something more artful. The current level of detail seems unnecessary to Green's biography.
  • "declined an later offer"
  • "As there were many in Kentucky who wanted him to accept the position, he traveled to Lexington" - we get the same sense from the next part of the sentence, which says he was received enthusiastically.
  • "was next to occupy" → "occupied"
  • "It took until the 1954 ... hire for president again" I still think this is irrelevant and may not reflect on Green at all; though I'm hesitant to push for this if no one has an issue with it but me.
  • " according to the Transylvania historian John Wright Jr., by large majorities" do we need to explicitly call out the historian who wrote this? Seems like uncontroversial fact for us to repeat with only citation for credit.
  • "though not without some physical trouble." can you expand on or clarify this at all? Halsey suggests Green overworked himself to infirmity; though Halsey says a lot on this topic, and I admit to skimming parts.
  • "done so,[71] and Green was" suggest splitting this sentence here.

@ Ajpolino: Apologies that it took me so long to work through these - I believe everything has been addressed. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 00:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply

No worries at all. Currently traveling but should be back online in a couple days. Will be happy to do the source review then if Generalissima doesnt have time. Ajpolino ( talk) 19:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Caught a bug traveling; go figure. On the mend. Comments and that promised source review by the end of the weekend. Best, Ajpolino ( talk) 23:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Ajpolino all good! Hope you get to feeling better soon. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Gave it a final readthrough and am happy to support this nomination. Excellent work, and an enjoyable read. Ajpolino ( talk) 11:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Source review by Generalissima

Oh, obscure 19th century American figure? This is exactly my wheelhouse. I'll look through these sources in a little bit. Generalissima ( talk) (it/she) 17:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Generalissima courtesy ping, if you're still interested in having a look. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
Generalissima Gog the Mild ( talk) 13:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Hi Generalissima, I would be grateful if you could let me know if a source review is on the way? Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 14:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I hope you don't mind, I'll drop into this subsection to do a source review. The article leans most heavily on Halsey's biography, Probably the only substantial biography of Green. It was published by a major firm and written by a contemporary of Green's who was a professor and Presbyterian preacher (I gather). We can guess Halsey would be predisposed to present Green in a positive light (though he assures us in his preface that he "has not aimed to eulogize, but to present a true picture of the man and the minister"). That said, it's almost certainly the best source that exists on Green. As long as you're not finding it regularly contradicted by other sources, I'm sure it's fine. Other sources are more straightforward:

  1. Baker - From a major publisher, written by a historian, and used only to support material that falls directly under the book's topic.
  2. Brinkley - Written by a Hampden–Sydney professor (described in obits as "the college historian") about Hampden–Sydney. Used largely to support Hampden-Sydney-era info that it's likely to be reliable on.
  3. Weston and Wright - Analogous to Brinkley but for Centre College and Transylvania respsectively. Bonus point to Wright, who was a professional historian. Regardless, I think both are fine here.
  4. Sanders article - Author is staff at the Kentucky Historical Society and writes on similar topics regularly.
  5. CentreCyclopedia - Couldn't find out much about this publication, but it's a short biography published under Centre College's purview. Seems fine.

Optionally, you could do us all a small service by linking to The National Cyclopedia... article. It's on Internet Archive. This UPenn library page says it was published in 1895, and the Internet Archive copy has that data printed in it. Flagging it in case our reference should be updated. Is listing White as the article's author appropriate? It's the publisher's name. The book gives little detail on who authored the articles. An identifier would also be nice. It looks like OCLC # is 1049877836 (from the Internet Archive page) or 656312787 (from the WorldCat page it links to)? I see Gog the Mild recommend OCLC #s regularly, so he may know which is appropriate.

656312787 relates to the 1893 edition, not the 1892 one. Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I also spot checked some claims while I was reviewing the text (referenced in the section above) and all looked good, barring some very minor comments above. Altogether, happy to give this article a Pass on source review. It's a well put together biography built appropriately on reliable sources. Thanks again for the interesting read, and my apologies for the delay in getting this done. Best, Ajpolino ( talk) 14:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)   reply

Support Comments by Dugan Murphy

I'll write some out here. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 22:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  • The mention of "Judge John Green" without any further biographical information is frustrating to me as a reader. Is his first name Judge? If Judge is his title, can you make that clear by adding just a phrase about the circumstances of this judgeship? How did such a seemingly young person get to be a judge?
  • "renowned teachers" looks like MOS:SCAREQUOTES. If this is a quote from a person, the text needs to state attribution, per MOS:QUOTE. Same for "malignant fever", "influential gentlemen", "the whole Man", "prominent men", and "advanced stage".
  • "His first education came ... by way of" reads awkwardly to me and requires some mental gymnastics for me to understand. I recommend rewording that sentence, considering the possibility of breaking it into two sentences. It might read more like "At thirteen, he began studying Greek and Latin at a classical school".
  • Note A looks like WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. What source says he did not attain a graduate degree from another institution?
  • This sentence clause doesn't make sense: "but did not graduate from either after returning to Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre". Could you clarify?
  • The way this sentence reads, it says Green was in multiple places on one day: "preached in Danville, its surroundings, and elsewhere in Kentucky on nearly every Sunday". I don't think that's what you mean, so I recommend a rewording.
  • The last sentence of the "Professor and pastor in Danville" section contains a list of incongruous clauses: "was elected", "returned", and "appointed". You could change "returned" to "reappointed" for instance, though maybe that doesn't sound well given the last clause.
  • Wikilink Presbyterian polity#General assembly?
  • I think Manumission is a more appropriate word and Wikilink than emancipation here.
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves" would read better as "the 25 to 30 people he enslaved".
  • Is the purpose of "his move from Kentucky, a slave state, to Pennsylvania, a free state," to illustrate that Green's decision to manumit the laborers he enslaved was made for him by geography? If so, I recommend making that clear.
  • "willing to go Green" – a comma is needed after "go".
  • "freed them as they were" reads ambiguous to me. If I understand correctly, it sounds more appropriate to say "allowed them to stay in the US".
  • "he was well-loved" is an opinion that I think should be attributed.
  • Typo: "returnedf"
  • "had increased" – delete "had".
  • Political economy is WP:DUPLINKed.
  • In general, I think this article overuses the semicolon. I recommend replacing with periods in instances in which they make a sentence too long and/or the two halves of the sentences they link are not closely related.
    • Removed most and either split sentences or reworded - left a few that I think are appropriate
  • The sentence that begins "This became a theme" is too long and unwieldy, particularly because of the double-dashed "and did".
  • I'm not sure that "large majorities" needs quotation marks. It seems like a statement that we should be free to say without, given the attribution you gave.
  • Does "bringing 300 new students to the school" refer to Centre College? That kind of wording seems out of place given the previous sentences were about the Second Presbyterian Church and the First Presbyterian Church. And then the next sentence refers to something being close to Centre, so apparently we're not talking about Centre here.
    • Yes, "the school" is Centre - the next sentence is also referring to Centre (Enrollment (at Centre) declined drastically due to the Civil War and its (the Civil War's) proximity to Centre). Happy to reword if you think this is poorly written. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • It's not as specific, but I think changing "the year before the war's start" to "before the war" would make this sentence easier to read.
  • "57 two" – having these two numbers next to each other is not ideal.
  • I think "acquired more slaves; he owned ten" would read better as "enslaved more people; he enslaved ten".
    • I don't love the repetition of "enslaved"; plus, as I understand it, they were already enslaved when Green got them, as opposed to Green himself putting them into slavery. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
      • I see what you're saying about the repetition in my recommendation. How about "enslaved more people; he held ten in bondage"? What I'm going for here (and in the article's first mention of slavery) is recognizing the humanity of the enslaved, as well as Green's choice to enslave others. I am also under the impression that enslaving is not just the process of selling someone into bondage, but also the state of holding someone in bondage. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note B: I don't think the parenthetical dates are necessary. Those dates are in the inline citations.
  • Do the sources say anything about the people enslaved by Green not included here? Perhaps what they did for him? That would help in describing and humanizing them.
    • Sadly, not that I can find; I wouldn't expect a ton of information to exist about them since they were dehumanized to the maximum extent possible (i.e. not viewed as humans in the first place) in that time. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Reading page 26 of Halsey and searching in it for keywords like "slave", I can likewise see no insight into the role of the folks enslaved by Green. I'm guessing they ran his house as domestic workers. Twenty-five people seems like a lot of staff for a family of four, though Halsey does say Green came by most of these folks by inheritance, so Green may have had little contact with some of them. But that's neither here nor there if the sources are silent. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • With the exception of Bascom and Young, the predecessors and successors in the infobox are nowhere in the article. I think you should add them to the article if they're going to be in the infobox.

@ PCN02WPS: P.S. I have my own FAC nomination that doesn't have any comments yet aside from an image review. I would really appreciate if you are able to look over the article and leave some comments. That nomination is here. Thanks in advance! Dugan Murphy ( talk) 23:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC) reply

750h

  • Green again left Kentucky in 1840 to teach oriental literature and biblical criticism at Western Theological Seminary.: it tells us he left Kentucky to teach at a seminary, but it’s worth noting where the seminary is (in this case it’s Pennsylvania).
  • He was baptized at Pisgah Presbyterian Church in Versailles, Kentucky, in March 1820 alongside his brother Willis. He fell seriously ill with a fever for several weeks during his second year at the school, at one point with a slim chance of survival, though ultimately he recovered. Who fell seriously ill, Willis or Lewis?
  • He ultimately resigned his position effective October 10, 1848. I think that “on” rather than “effective” would be more concise
    • The only catch here is that he technically resigned sometime before that (Halsey says that the notice of his resignation was read at a congregational meeting on October 4), with the resignation only taking effect on the 10th. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 10:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Oh okay. 750 h+ 10:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

That’s all i got. Excellent work on the article. 750 h+ 03:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ 750h+: thanks for the review and the kind words! First two things fixed and a response for the last. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 10:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Support 750 h+ 10:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Coordinator comment

More than four weeks in and not a single general support. That would usually have me archiving the nomination. There are plenty of constructive comments, so PCN02WPS could you pick up the pace on responding to them, else this is liable to time out. Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild Yes, I will speed things up. I am traveling but will try to take what time I can to work on this - thank you (and all reviewers) for your patience. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 06:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC) reply
The nomination has now been open a month. There are still no supports. There are extensive comments from two reviewers made seven days ago which have not been addressed. "Nominators are expected to ... make efforts to address objections promptly." I appreciate that RL happens, but if all reviewer comments are not addressed within 24 hours I will archive this nomination as "actionable objections have not been resolved". Gog the Mild ( talk) 11:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Gog the Mild That is fair - I have now addressed all outstanding comments. Sorry to be an inconvenience. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 00:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Support from Gog the Mild

  • Both cites 21 and 22 contain p./pp. errors.
  • "though sources agree that the disease from which he died was contracted from these interactions" is not cited.
    • This wasn't explicitly mentioned in the sources but was rather a conclusion I drew on my own. I removed it because it's not citable and also not really necessary to go out of my way to point out given the rest of the footnote. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • The lead seems very long (472 words), especially given that the main article is fairly brief (2,351 words). I would expect the lead to be about half the length it is. Much of the lead does not seem to be in summary style. See MOS:LEADLENGTH. It also contains information not in the main article.
    • I cut some stuff out of the lead (now at just over 300), let me know if you think more needs to go.
Nice work. It is still on the lengthy side, but - IMO - acceptable. I have made a couple of tweaks, let me know here if you are unhappy with any of them will you? PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "he manumitted the 25 to 30 people he enslaved, who belonged to his wife as an inheritance." This doesn't make sense. Surely they were already slaves when Green's wife inherited them, so how can Green have "enslaved" them? And you can't use "the" at first mention; have these slaves been previously mentioned?
    • I changed this wording at the request of another reviewer, who said that "enslaving" them could refer to holding them in bondage as well as putting them into bondage. The original wording was Around this time, in the midst of his move from Kentucky, a slave state, to Pennsylvania, a free state, he made the decision to emancipate his 25 to 30 slaves, who technically belonged to his wife as an inheritance. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green enslaved more people". Really? What were the circumstances of their enslavement?
    • This wording was also changed during the FAC process - the original wording mentioned his purchase of the slaves and the point of the sentence is to show that he owned slaves while at Transy/Centre but when exactly he purchased them is not known. Original wording: Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green acquired more slaves; he owned ten during his time as Centre president PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
The prior wordings look fine to me. "Enslavement" (as a verb) is the act of making someone a slave - they are free prior to being enslaved and a slave afterwards. If the other reviewer has a dictionary with a different definition I would be grateful if they could cite it. Much as I would like to recommend just going back to your original wording, I think Dugan Murphy and I need to discuss this. Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Dictionary.com defines "enslave" as "to make a slave of; hold (someone) in slavery or bondage". The second half of that sentence certainly applies here and the first half likely does not, since it is very likely that the ten people in question were enslaved by someone else before they were enslaved by Green. I see what Gog the Mild is saying about the opportunity to misread that sentence to mean that Green put ten free people into bondage, which is possible but unlikely. How's this for a rewording? "Sometime after moving back to Kentucky following his term at Hampden–Sydney, Green grew his enslaved workforce; he held ten people in bondage during his time as Centre president." Dugan Murphy ( talk) 22:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
'increased' rather than "grew" please. Otherwise "he held ten people in bondage" is a softening of 'he owned ten people as slaves' which is what I would prefer, but I can live with it. What about "he manumitted the 25 to 30 people he enslaved, who belonged to his wife as an inheritance" in the previous point? My suggestion 'he manumitted the 25 to 30 people held as slaves, who were technically his wife's property as an inheritance". Gog the Mild ( talk) 22:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Agree on "increased". Also your recommendation on the manumission sentence. My goal here is just to recognize the humanity of the people enslaved by Green, which of course isn't easy given the complete lack of information about them. And varying expectations surrounding language. Given what what little the sources say, and how they say it, it is easy to refer to the enslaved as objects and to minimize their circumstance. It is also easy to minimize the active choice made by Green to hold people in bondage against their will. But by no means is my goal to end up with a word soup that confuses the reader. Thank you for working with me and PCN02WPS on the language. Dugan Murphy ( talk) 23:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "Enrollment declined drastically due to the Civil War". When was this?
The problem is that if a reader doesn't know when the Civil War - I am guessing that this refers to the American Civil War ;-) - began they don't know when you are referring to. How about 'Enrollment declined drastically from 1861 due to the Civil War and ...' or similar?
  • "Green contracted a disease after attending to sick and injured soldiers." Could we have the date, at least the year, in the first sentence of the paragraph. Where did the attending take place?
    • Added "late May 1863". I presume the location was in Danville (I suspect in Old Centre, specifically, since I have that in the lead), though I don't believe the sources mention any specifics with respect to location in this case (I don't have them with me at the moment but I can check if you like in a couple of days). I have hidden the bit about Old Centre from the lead until I can go back and verify it.
Ah, you spotted that bit about the Old Centre in the lead but not the article huh? You can either completely leave it out or wait until you can check your sources and then, maybe, have the option of adding it to the body. It is too trivial for the lead.

PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Gog the Mild ( talk) 17:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild: thanks for taking a look! Responses above. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 19:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Looking good. Just "enslave" to sort out. I came here looking to close this after a few comments. It may be that the "few comments" push me into recusal territory. I'll ponder on't after the enslavement discussion. ( Ian Rose, any wise words?) Gog the Mild ( talk) 21:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Yeah, probably enough commentary from you to rate recusal, to be on the safe side. I have this on my watchlist and should be able to close. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 21:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Gog the Mild: reworded both slavery-related sentences as recommended and added clarification about the Civil War. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 14:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC) reply
Part ii

Recusing to complete the review.

Tricky, do we have a start and/or end date for when he studied Hebrew at Yale ?
Unfortunately not that I can find; the sentence from the source is as follows: In accordance with this decision, he entered the Theological Seminary at Princeton, New Jersey, in the year 1831, and devoted himself with his accustomed ardor to the prescribed studies of the course. Before entering the seminary at Princeton, however, he spent some time at Yale College, giving his attention to the study of the Hebrew language, and such other departments as had a special reference to his preparation for the ministry. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "In order to learn more". In order to learn more what?
  • "Upon his arrival, he was elected vice president of Centre College, he returned to his former positions ..." This isn't grammatical. Try something like 'Upon his arrival, he was elected vice president of Centre College, and returned to his former positions ...'
  • "and he became co-pastor at Danville's First Presbyterian Church, alongside Centre president John C. Young." Suggest making this a separate sentence.
  • "he received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree". Why the initial upper-case letters?
    • I suppose I figured all degrees were given title case; the title of the article itself uses caps but that article also uses lowercase sometimes in the body. Not sure if there's an established rule somewhere but I typically use caps for degree names. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The wiki rule is only to use caps for proper nouns. There are one or two exceptions, but this isn't one of them.
Fair enough, fixed this. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • "he fell ill and became weaker". Weaker than what and/or when?
    • I think I added the comparative case in there on my own; reworded to "and became weak"
  • "In mid-1848, Green was invited to Hampden Sydney, Virginia, to speak at Hampden–Sydney College". It seems redundant to state that Hampden–Sydney College was in Hampden Sydney. And he was invited to the college, not the town.
  • "the college's trustees were considering him for their presidency". This is a little clumsy. Maybe 'the college's board of trustees were considering him for their presidency'? Or do you mean 'the college's trustees were considering him for the presidency of the college'?
  • "well-roundedness". Which would be what? Is there a link?
Clever.
  • "Enrollment jumped from 27 students to 100 after his first year and again increased to 145 the year after." Suggest 'Enrollment jumped from 27 students to 100 after his first year and to 145 the year after.' A reader doesn't need to be told this is an increase.
  • "Further, he spent vacations and time away from the college recruiting potential students and securing further increases in funding." Can we avoid "further" twice in one sentence?
  • "resulted in the Medical College effectively becoming their own institution." Suggest 'resulted in the Medical College effectively becoming an independent institution' or similar.
  • "Green's teaching responsibilities were largely focused on classes for fourth-year students, such as ..." I think you mean 'Green's teaching responsibilities were largely focused on classes for fourth-year students, and included subjects such as ...'
  • "He traveled to Lexington to see the college before making a decision and was received enthusiastically." What was his decision?
  • "one such strategy involved the proposal of a 50% salary increase". You can't say "one such strategy" when you haven't previously mentioned any.
  • "in 1856 when Transylvania University, having been recently reorganized by the Kentucky General Assembly ... In March 1856, the Kentucky General Assembly passed an act which reorganized Transylvania". Do we need to be told this twice?
I agree.

Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Gog the Mild: everything has been fixed or responded to! PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Looking pretty good. Just a couple of minor comebacks above. Gog the Mild ( talk)
@ Gog the Mild: courtesy ping for one fix and one response. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 20:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lewis_W._Green/archive1&oldid=1233044652"

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