The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC) [1]. reply
Gospel of the Ebionites ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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This GA article has recently been through a 2nd peer review to prepare it for FAC, and it is now ready for FA review. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC) reply
I haven't taken an in-depth view of the article (more to come, possibly), but on first glance, I am not quite taken with the different two different systems of notes/citations. From how I see it, this would run afoul of criterion 2c's call for "consistent citations"--and I think it a salient point considering notes, citations, sources and further reading takes up 60% of the article's spatial arrangement.-- ColonelHenry ( talk) 19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC) reply
Support – I peer reviewed this article. My few, not very substantial, queries were dealt with then. The text seems to me to be well-shaped, balanced in content, very readable and (so far as I am capable of judging) comprehensive. An additional image might enhance the look of the page, but perhaps there's nothing relevant to this very specialised topic. As I have mentioned, above, the referencing strikes me as fine, and is both full and varied in range of sources. In my opinion this article meets the criteria for FA. It is a credit to the nominator and to Wikipedia (I have done a spot of Googling and found nothing else on the web anything like as good on the subject). – Tim riley ( talk) 10:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Support – I reviewed this article at WP:GAN and commented there that this article appeared to have the potential of getting through WP:FAC. I'm willing and able to add more detailed comments here, but I can't start before 29th May (2013). Pyrotec ( talk) 08:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC) reply
First, I find this article fairly covers the subject in most aspects; you've done a brave job of pulling together a number of sources & presenting this in a unbiassed way. However, there are some matters I believe need attention to for this to be considered a Featured Article.
(1) ColonelHenry makes a good point about the notes/citation system being confusing. I think it could help if the citations were presented in the Harvard style -- e.g. (Paget 2010, 325–80) -- but this should not be considered an objection that would prevent this article from FAC status, just a suggestion.
(2) A minor point: the first block quotation in the section "Composition" is italicized. AFAIK, block quotes do not need to be italicized, unless there is a reason for it. (Which there is in another extended quotation below this.) Again, not critical but it offends my sensabilities. ;-)
(3) More important, yet still minor, is that sometimes this article makes a statement which in knowledgeable eyes is clearly a theory or opinion without stating who asserts it. This usually appears to be a style choice, so there is no reason to suspect bad faith. However, our factual knowledge of the "Gospel of the Ebionites" consists of seven excerpts, comprising less than a few hundred words, upon which a mountain of inference & speculation has been raised; it is easy for even experts to confuse fact with opinion in cases like this, so identifying & attributing theories & opinions is very important. A few cases I noticed were:
(4) A major point that needs to be in this article is in discussing "Christology" there is no mention how one fragment of the Gospel indicates they have an Adoptionist interpretation of Christ's divinity. (Bart Ehrman makes this point in Lost Christianities, p. 101.) For this reason the Ebionites are commonly lumped with Judeo-Christians, who according to the latest theories, minimized Christ's divinity & saw more as a man who lived a perfect life (Ehrman, Lost Christianities, p. 101; Fred Lapham, An Introduction to the New Testament Apocrypha (T&T Clark International: 2003, p. 86), & was a major reason why Epiphanius considered them heretics.
(5) Another major point is explaining why this lost work is of importance to scholars. You seem to sense this need with the final section "Inferences about the Ebionites" which explains who the Ebionites were, but this material is not integrated with the rest of this article. (Okay, now I'll give you the answer. ;-) It is important as a possible primary source for the Jewish Christian branch of Early Christianity, but scholars disagree if its information truly reflects the ideas of that branch, or if it reflects beliefs that have changed, perhaps greatly, from that early group thus failing to help us any closer to those early Jewish Christians. (Think of the Ebionites as an evolutionary dead end of religious belief.) In any case, the Ebionites are a shadowy presence in the fragmentary picture of Early Christianity, & these fragments offer us one of our few glimpses into their world. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Three more points I noticed as I reviewed your changes:
(3d) "Epiphanius gives no indication of concern for vegetarianism in this part of the Gospel text, and it may instead be an allusion to the manna in the wilderness of Exodus 16:31 and Numbers 11:8, or to 1 Kings 19:6 where Elijah eats cakes in oil." (end of first paragraph of "Vegetarianism") I think it might be better to directly credit Koch in the text with the speculation this may be an allusion to manna, instead of in the footnote.
(6) Writing about the fragment quoted by Epiphanius at 13.2b-3, you state "Although twelve apostles are mentioned, only eight are named", yet I count 9 persons: "Simon, surnamed Peter" (where Jesus is said to speak), John & James the sons of Zebedee, Simon, Andrew, Thaddaeus, Simon Zelotes, Judas Iscariot, & Matthew (whom Jesus is speaking to). I can see how you arrived at 8, by either omitting Peter or Matthew, but you need to explicitly say "not counting" & add either Peter or Matthew.
(7) Just something I stumbled across, that you may want to add. Concerning the fifth fragment, where you write, "The fifth quotation (14.5) appears to be a harmony of Matthew 12:47–48 and its Synoptic parallels. However, Jesus' final proclamation shows a closer agreement to 2 Clement 9:11 than any of the Synoptics", I found Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels: Their History and Development (Harrisburg: Trinity Press, 1990), points out this same blending is not only found in 2 Clement & the Gospel of the Ebionites, but also in Clement of Alexandria (Eclogae ex scripturis propheticis 20.3). He concludes, "2 Clem. 9.11 thus presupposes a more widely known document or a tradition in which this saying already appeared in a harmonized version." (p. 351) -- llywrch ( talk) 20:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, I found a few more minor points. (Not trying to jerk you around, but thought I should mention them while I'm here.) But even if they aren't fixed, I'm going to say Support.
(3e) Section "Composition", last sentence of paragraph 5: "The appearance of a great light on the water may be an echo of St. Paul's conversion or an additional harmonization to the Gospel of the Hebrews." Any reason not to change the last six words to "to this work"? (My edit finger is itching to do just that.)
(3f) Last paragraph of this section, last sentence: "The immediate context suggests the possible attribution of the quotation to a Clementine source." According to the note, this is Skarsaune's interpretation; any reason not to rewrite that sentence as "Based on the immediate context, Skarsaune suggests that this passage may come from a Clementine source"?
(3g) Last paragraph of the article. The last sentence repeats information already present at the beginning of this section. I know you're trying for a recapitulation in order to signal the end of the article, but I'd delete it. IMHO, ending the article with the penultimate sentence works. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC) reply
I left a note on Pyrotec's page encouraging him to make further comments, but he hasn't responded. I think this nomination may now be in the hands of the delegates. Ignocrates ( talk) 23:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Delegate comments
Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 03:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Image check - all OK (PD-age). 1 image and a caption need improvement (tweaked some licenses to include US).
Spotcheck of sources
Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:11, 22 June 2013 (UTC) reply
The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC) [1]. reply
Gospel of the Ebionites ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Toolbox |
---|
This GA article has recently been through a 2nd peer review to prepare it for FAC, and it is now ready for FA review. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC) reply
I haven't taken an in-depth view of the article (more to come, possibly), but on first glance, I am not quite taken with the different two different systems of notes/citations. From how I see it, this would run afoul of criterion 2c's call for "consistent citations"--and I think it a salient point considering notes, citations, sources and further reading takes up 60% of the article's spatial arrangement.-- ColonelHenry ( talk) 19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC) reply
Support – I peer reviewed this article. My few, not very substantial, queries were dealt with then. The text seems to me to be well-shaped, balanced in content, very readable and (so far as I am capable of judging) comprehensive. An additional image might enhance the look of the page, but perhaps there's nothing relevant to this very specialised topic. As I have mentioned, above, the referencing strikes me as fine, and is both full and varied in range of sources. In my opinion this article meets the criteria for FA. It is a credit to the nominator and to Wikipedia (I have done a spot of Googling and found nothing else on the web anything like as good on the subject). – Tim riley ( talk) 10:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Support – I reviewed this article at WP:GAN and commented there that this article appeared to have the potential of getting through WP:FAC. I'm willing and able to add more detailed comments here, but I can't start before 29th May (2013). Pyrotec ( talk) 08:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC) reply
First, I find this article fairly covers the subject in most aspects; you've done a brave job of pulling together a number of sources & presenting this in a unbiassed way. However, there are some matters I believe need attention to for this to be considered a Featured Article.
(1) ColonelHenry makes a good point about the notes/citation system being confusing. I think it could help if the citations were presented in the Harvard style -- e.g. (Paget 2010, 325–80) -- but this should not be considered an objection that would prevent this article from FAC status, just a suggestion.
(2) A minor point: the first block quotation in the section "Composition" is italicized. AFAIK, block quotes do not need to be italicized, unless there is a reason for it. (Which there is in another extended quotation below this.) Again, not critical but it offends my sensabilities. ;-)
(3) More important, yet still minor, is that sometimes this article makes a statement which in knowledgeable eyes is clearly a theory or opinion without stating who asserts it. This usually appears to be a style choice, so there is no reason to suspect bad faith. However, our factual knowledge of the "Gospel of the Ebionites" consists of seven excerpts, comprising less than a few hundred words, upon which a mountain of inference & speculation has been raised; it is easy for even experts to confuse fact with opinion in cases like this, so identifying & attributing theories & opinions is very important. A few cases I noticed were:
(4) A major point that needs to be in this article is in discussing "Christology" there is no mention how one fragment of the Gospel indicates they have an Adoptionist interpretation of Christ's divinity. (Bart Ehrman makes this point in Lost Christianities, p. 101.) For this reason the Ebionites are commonly lumped with Judeo-Christians, who according to the latest theories, minimized Christ's divinity & saw more as a man who lived a perfect life (Ehrman, Lost Christianities, p. 101; Fred Lapham, An Introduction to the New Testament Apocrypha (T&T Clark International: 2003, p. 86), & was a major reason why Epiphanius considered them heretics.
(5) Another major point is explaining why this lost work is of importance to scholars. You seem to sense this need with the final section "Inferences about the Ebionites" which explains who the Ebionites were, but this material is not integrated with the rest of this article. (Okay, now I'll give you the answer. ;-) It is important as a possible primary source for the Jewish Christian branch of Early Christianity, but scholars disagree if its information truly reflects the ideas of that branch, or if it reflects beliefs that have changed, perhaps greatly, from that early group thus failing to help us any closer to those early Jewish Christians. (Think of the Ebionites as an evolutionary dead end of religious belief.) In any case, the Ebionites are a shadowy presence in the fragmentary picture of Early Christianity, & these fragments offer us one of our few glimpses into their world. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Three more points I noticed as I reviewed your changes:
(3d) "Epiphanius gives no indication of concern for vegetarianism in this part of the Gospel text, and it may instead be an allusion to the manna in the wilderness of Exodus 16:31 and Numbers 11:8, or to 1 Kings 19:6 where Elijah eats cakes in oil." (end of first paragraph of "Vegetarianism") I think it might be better to directly credit Koch in the text with the speculation this may be an allusion to manna, instead of in the footnote.
(6) Writing about the fragment quoted by Epiphanius at 13.2b-3, you state "Although twelve apostles are mentioned, only eight are named", yet I count 9 persons: "Simon, surnamed Peter" (where Jesus is said to speak), John & James the sons of Zebedee, Simon, Andrew, Thaddaeus, Simon Zelotes, Judas Iscariot, & Matthew (whom Jesus is speaking to). I can see how you arrived at 8, by either omitting Peter or Matthew, but you need to explicitly say "not counting" & add either Peter or Matthew.
(7) Just something I stumbled across, that you may want to add. Concerning the fifth fragment, where you write, "The fifth quotation (14.5) appears to be a harmony of Matthew 12:47–48 and its Synoptic parallels. However, Jesus' final proclamation shows a closer agreement to 2 Clement 9:11 than any of the Synoptics", I found Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels: Their History and Development (Harrisburg: Trinity Press, 1990), points out this same blending is not only found in 2 Clement & the Gospel of the Ebionites, but also in Clement of Alexandria (Eclogae ex scripturis propheticis 20.3). He concludes, "2 Clem. 9.11 thus presupposes a more widely known document or a tradition in which this saying already appeared in a harmonized version." (p. 351) -- llywrch ( talk) 20:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, I found a few more minor points. (Not trying to jerk you around, but thought I should mention them while I'm here.) But even if they aren't fixed, I'm going to say Support.
(3e) Section "Composition", last sentence of paragraph 5: "The appearance of a great light on the water may be an echo of St. Paul's conversion or an additional harmonization to the Gospel of the Hebrews." Any reason not to change the last six words to "to this work"? (My edit finger is itching to do just that.)
(3f) Last paragraph of this section, last sentence: "The immediate context suggests the possible attribution of the quotation to a Clementine source." According to the note, this is Skarsaune's interpretation; any reason not to rewrite that sentence as "Based on the immediate context, Skarsaune suggests that this passage may come from a Clementine source"?
(3g) Last paragraph of the article. The last sentence repeats information already present at the beginning of this section. I know you're trying for a recapitulation in order to signal the end of the article, but I'd delete it. IMHO, ending the article with the penultimate sentence works. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC) reply
I left a note on Pyrotec's page encouraging him to make further comments, but he hasn't responded. I think this nomination may now be in the hands of the delegates. Ignocrates ( talk) 23:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Delegate comments
Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 03:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Image check - all OK (PD-age). 1 image and a caption need improvement (tweaked some licenses to include US).
Spotcheck of sources
Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:11, 22 June 2013 (UTC) reply