The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot ( talk) 31 January 2019 [1].
This article is about a 1970 album by the Brazilian singer-songwriter Jorge Ben, accompanied by the Trio Mocotó band. It was a musical and thematic departure from Ben's previous work, a successful work in the contemporaneous Tropicália artistic movement, and pioneering of what later became known as samba-rock. It received retrospective critical acclaim and attention from North American publications after a re-release in 2007. The previous nomination was closed a week ago due to prolonged inactivity and belated activity, but I have been allowed to renominate. Dan56 ( talk) 14:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Moisejp |
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In the first paragraph of the lead, if you include the pronunciation/translation section, it is mentioned twice that Fôrça Bruta means "Brute Force".
Moisejp (
talk) 15:11, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
"A reviewer for The Boston Globe said Ben's masterful performance of this music—"a fusion of bright samba and mellow soul"—still sounds original and essential nearly forty years after its recording". Would "sounded" be better as the review is from 2007? Moisejp ( talk) 04:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC) "But in his own appraisal in The Wire, Shapiro judged it to be". Does "own" add anything here? Moisejp ( talk) 05:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC) I've read through the article and in general found it very good. My biggest concern is in the final two paragraphs, where every sentence has a direct quotation. I would feel a lot more comfortable about supporting if you could paraphrase some of the points. Off the top of my head I can suggest that the following could be candidates that shouldn't be hard to paraphrase but these are just ideas: "a wonderful album because it kept everyone's plentiful musical skills intact while simply sailing along on a wonderful acoustic groove that may have varied little but was all the better for its agreeable evenness"; "loveliest tunes"; "matchless"; "this graceful, lovely album"; "catchiest"; "overplay[ed]"; "something of a minor masterpiece of textural contrast"; "too dainty" or "too conservative"; "pleading quality"; "as if he can't contain that feeling of sadness and joy at the same time." Or there could possibly be other paraphrasable points from the same reviews to substitue in and bring down the overall frequency of direct quotes.
Also, there seems to be no clear order to the reviews, and at first glance it seems quite random. (Is it possibly chronological? If so, the chronological grouping doesn’t necessarily add anything to the reader’s appreciation of common trends in the reviews.) I don’t consider myself an expert on WP:RECEPTION, but in my most recent articles I’ve taken to heart the idea that with a bit of effort, a narrative can be found to group reviews in order to, at least a little, highlight trends or similarities in them as opposed to just a list of miscellaneous reviews. Moisejp ( talk) 06:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi Dan. I can accept your argument of the loose transitions throughout the section. And I'm sympathetic to a nominator who has different reviewers asking for conflicting things, and I have very big respect for BLZ's editing abilities and instincts. Nonetheless, I find myself disagreeing with him on this particular point about the appropriateness of having this many quotations in the section. I appreciate the few you paraphrased a day or two ago but I truly believe the section needs a handful more paraphrased to not be overburdened with quotations. From what I gathered from the section of the previous review that you linked to, BLZ argues that by paraphrasing reviews, we don't convey 100% of the nuance that the reviewer intended. That may be true, but I believe paraphrases of reviews don't always need to convey 100% of the nuance—it's enough to have a quite close generalization that is still true even if a bit of the nuance is lost; indeed, this is preferable to having quotations in every sentence. BLZ, how can we proceed with this? Would you still support if Dan were to paraphrase a few more quotations in this section? (Even more than a few would actually be ideal for me, but I'd be willing to settle for just a few.) Or do you have any other ideas to propose? Moisejp ( talk) 17:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
BLZ, you make some interesting points and your zero tolerance for any possibility of the Wikipedia editor interpreting a reviewer's words makes me question whether my own level of tolerance has been right. But that's something I'll think about and I don't believe it necessarily needs to be a part of this current discussion. Rather, in this current conversation, I think if we can find a handful of quotations that none of us objects to getting rid of, either through paraphrase or through other means (e.g., reducing detail), it sounds like both of us will be in a situation of support for the article. Here are some ideas from me that don't seem too controversial:
Hi Dan, how are you? Thank you for your edits. Hmm, but the last two paragraphs of Release and reception still feel really dense with quotations to me. Except for the first sentence, every sentence has at least one quotation, and most have two or more. Would it be possible to aim for having at least a couple more sentences with zero quotations, and—if possible—see if there are any other ones you can trim here and there in other sentences? I hope I don't seem like a difficult reviewer. I do think overall the article is very good, and if this one section could be made a little tighter, I think I would certainly be ready to support. Moisejp ( talk) 06:35, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
No worries about having pinged me. OK, I'm ready to support now. There are still a few more quotations in the section than I would normally go for, but given BLZ's concerns, I can accept them. One remaining quotation that really jumps out at me as unnecessary is "feeling of sadness and joy"; it seems like it should be easy to paraphrase, and I urge you to see if you can do anything with it, but if you have reasons not to, it doesn't affect my support. Moisejp ( talk) 01:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC) |
I don't really have much to say about this article because I mostly do hip hop-related articles, but this article is well sourced and well edited, I think it deserves to be featured. TheAmazingPeanuts ( talk) 07:45, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Aoba47 |
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*Apologies in advance if this is obvious, but I am a little confused by the following sentence (This "hectic" period for them led music critic John Bush to believe it may have resulted in a relaxed recording of samba soul for Fôrça Bruta.). To me, it reads that the musicians’ previous success and busy schedules had lead to a more “relaxed” atmosphere for the recording of this album. I am not seeing the connection between the two, as I would imagine that busy schedules with four individual musicians would lead to more conflict and stress than relaxation. Does John Bush elaborate on this more?
You have done a wonderful job with this article. It is great to see a non-English-language album on the FAC level, and hopefully, this will encourage other editors to pursue similar projects. Most of my comments were addressed in the previoius review, and I only have two very nitpicky comments/questions. Once they are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this nomination. If you have time, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current peer review on an article that I would ideally like to put through the FAC process sometime in January. I understand if you are not interested or do not have time. Either way, have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 ( talk) 01:20, 19 December 2018 (UTC) |
Support per last nomination. Erick ( talk) 16:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Nikkimaria:, you offered a media review in the previous nomination, where BLZ also responded to your concern about this image. The media have remained unchanged since then. Does this article pass a media check? Dan56 ( talk) 07:11, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know, there isn't a problem with me knocking out an image/file review so I'll go ahead and do that. Here's a run-through of every image and audio file on the page, whether free-licensed or copyrighted:
If anyone has further concerns about file usage, there should be enough information here to assess any issues. — BLZ · talk 23:16, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The article is very well-written and I enjoyed reading about a genre I've not explored. I'll be back to offer a few more small comments but overall I think it's strong.
I've seen a few mentions above re. sourcing but I don't think we've had a formal review for formatting and reliability (correct me if I'm wrong). Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 04:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Starting one now. I've already looked through the sources fairly extensively in my review (often in minute detail, checking the source and also the precision of translation, etc.) so, with that familiarity I think I will be able to finish a source review fairly quickly. — BLZ · talk 02:44, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Overall, sources look good. I made some minor formatting edits. Most of the online sources are straightforward and standard. I've discussed the offline sources with Dan56 previously and had made some corrections in my first review (when double-checking the articles published in Time and The Wire). I spent some extra time with two articles, both published on the platform Medium:
Great. Good work. Now is this nomination finished and worthy of being passed? Dan56 ( talk) 08:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot ( talk) 31 January 2019 [1].
This article is about a 1970 album by the Brazilian singer-songwriter Jorge Ben, accompanied by the Trio Mocotó band. It was a musical and thematic departure from Ben's previous work, a successful work in the contemporaneous Tropicália artistic movement, and pioneering of what later became known as samba-rock. It received retrospective critical acclaim and attention from North American publications after a re-release in 2007. The previous nomination was closed a week ago due to prolonged inactivity and belated activity, but I have been allowed to renominate. Dan56 ( talk) 14:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Moisejp |
---|
In the first paragraph of the lead, if you include the pronunciation/translation section, it is mentioned twice that Fôrça Bruta means "Brute Force".
Moisejp (
talk) 15:11, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
"A reviewer for The Boston Globe said Ben's masterful performance of this music—"a fusion of bright samba and mellow soul"—still sounds original and essential nearly forty years after its recording". Would "sounded" be better as the review is from 2007? Moisejp ( talk) 04:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC) "But in his own appraisal in The Wire, Shapiro judged it to be". Does "own" add anything here? Moisejp ( talk) 05:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC) I've read through the article and in general found it very good. My biggest concern is in the final two paragraphs, where every sentence has a direct quotation. I would feel a lot more comfortable about supporting if you could paraphrase some of the points. Off the top of my head I can suggest that the following could be candidates that shouldn't be hard to paraphrase but these are just ideas: "a wonderful album because it kept everyone's plentiful musical skills intact while simply sailing along on a wonderful acoustic groove that may have varied little but was all the better for its agreeable evenness"; "loveliest tunes"; "matchless"; "this graceful, lovely album"; "catchiest"; "overplay[ed]"; "something of a minor masterpiece of textural contrast"; "too dainty" or "too conservative"; "pleading quality"; "as if he can't contain that feeling of sadness and joy at the same time." Or there could possibly be other paraphrasable points from the same reviews to substitue in and bring down the overall frequency of direct quotes.
Also, there seems to be no clear order to the reviews, and at first glance it seems quite random. (Is it possibly chronological? If so, the chronological grouping doesn’t necessarily add anything to the reader’s appreciation of common trends in the reviews.) I don’t consider myself an expert on WP:RECEPTION, but in my most recent articles I’ve taken to heart the idea that with a bit of effort, a narrative can be found to group reviews in order to, at least a little, highlight trends or similarities in them as opposed to just a list of miscellaneous reviews. Moisejp ( talk) 06:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi Dan. I can accept your argument of the loose transitions throughout the section. And I'm sympathetic to a nominator who has different reviewers asking for conflicting things, and I have very big respect for BLZ's editing abilities and instincts. Nonetheless, I find myself disagreeing with him on this particular point about the appropriateness of having this many quotations in the section. I appreciate the few you paraphrased a day or two ago but I truly believe the section needs a handful more paraphrased to not be overburdened with quotations. From what I gathered from the section of the previous review that you linked to, BLZ argues that by paraphrasing reviews, we don't convey 100% of the nuance that the reviewer intended. That may be true, but I believe paraphrases of reviews don't always need to convey 100% of the nuance—it's enough to have a quite close generalization that is still true even if a bit of the nuance is lost; indeed, this is preferable to having quotations in every sentence. BLZ, how can we proceed with this? Would you still support if Dan were to paraphrase a few more quotations in this section? (Even more than a few would actually be ideal for me, but I'd be willing to settle for just a few.) Or do you have any other ideas to propose? Moisejp ( talk) 17:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
BLZ, you make some interesting points and your zero tolerance for any possibility of the Wikipedia editor interpreting a reviewer's words makes me question whether my own level of tolerance has been right. But that's something I'll think about and I don't believe it necessarily needs to be a part of this current discussion. Rather, in this current conversation, I think if we can find a handful of quotations that none of us objects to getting rid of, either through paraphrase or through other means (e.g., reducing detail), it sounds like both of us will be in a situation of support for the article. Here are some ideas from me that don't seem too controversial:
Hi Dan, how are you? Thank you for your edits. Hmm, but the last two paragraphs of Release and reception still feel really dense with quotations to me. Except for the first sentence, every sentence has at least one quotation, and most have two or more. Would it be possible to aim for having at least a couple more sentences with zero quotations, and—if possible—see if there are any other ones you can trim here and there in other sentences? I hope I don't seem like a difficult reviewer. I do think overall the article is very good, and if this one section could be made a little tighter, I think I would certainly be ready to support. Moisejp ( talk) 06:35, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
No worries about having pinged me. OK, I'm ready to support now. There are still a few more quotations in the section than I would normally go for, but given BLZ's concerns, I can accept them. One remaining quotation that really jumps out at me as unnecessary is "feeling of sadness and joy"; it seems like it should be easy to paraphrase, and I urge you to see if you can do anything with it, but if you have reasons not to, it doesn't affect my support. Moisejp ( talk) 01:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC) |
I don't really have much to say about this article because I mostly do hip hop-related articles, but this article is well sourced and well edited, I think it deserves to be featured. TheAmazingPeanuts ( talk) 07:45, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Aoba47 |
---|
*Apologies in advance if this is obvious, but I am a little confused by the following sentence (This "hectic" period for them led music critic John Bush to believe it may have resulted in a relaxed recording of samba soul for Fôrça Bruta.). To me, it reads that the musicians’ previous success and busy schedules had lead to a more “relaxed” atmosphere for the recording of this album. I am not seeing the connection between the two, as I would imagine that busy schedules with four individual musicians would lead to more conflict and stress than relaxation. Does John Bush elaborate on this more?
You have done a wonderful job with this article. It is great to see a non-English-language album on the FAC level, and hopefully, this will encourage other editors to pursue similar projects. Most of my comments were addressed in the previoius review, and I only have two very nitpicky comments/questions. Once they are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this nomination. If you have time, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current peer review on an article that I would ideally like to put through the FAC process sometime in January. I understand if you are not interested or do not have time. Either way, have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 ( talk) 01:20, 19 December 2018 (UTC) |
Support per last nomination. Erick ( talk) 16:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Nikkimaria:, you offered a media review in the previous nomination, where BLZ also responded to your concern about this image. The media have remained unchanged since then. Does this article pass a media check? Dan56 ( talk) 07:11, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know, there isn't a problem with me knocking out an image/file review so I'll go ahead and do that. Here's a run-through of every image and audio file on the page, whether free-licensed or copyrighted:
If anyone has further concerns about file usage, there should be enough information here to assess any issues. — BLZ · talk 23:16, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The article is very well-written and I enjoyed reading about a genre I've not explored. I'll be back to offer a few more small comments but overall I think it's strong.
I've seen a few mentions above re. sourcing but I don't think we've had a formal review for formatting and reliability (correct me if I'm wrong). Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 04:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Starting one now. I've already looked through the sources fairly extensively in my review (often in minute detail, checking the source and also the precision of translation, etc.) so, with that familiarity I think I will be able to finish a source review fairly quickly. — BLZ · talk 02:44, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Overall, sources look good. I made some minor formatting edits. Most of the online sources are straightforward and standard. I've discussed the offline sources with Dan56 previously and had made some corrections in my first review (when double-checking the articles published in Time and The Wire). I spent some extra time with two articles, both published on the platform Medium:
Great. Good work. Now is this nomination finished and worthy of being passed? Dan56 ( talk) 08:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)