Ferenc Szaniszló ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
– General close. See comments for reasoning.28 July 2013
 | Stale or resolved, but in any event long past its ordinary 2-week lifespan here at DRN. In light of its complex DR history, if more help is needed about all I can suggest is formal mediation, but that will not work unless all primary participants in the dispute are willing to participate. — TransporterMan ( TALK) 14:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC) reply |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Ferenc Szaniszló is a well-known Hungarian TV figure who made international headlines, in March of this year, after receiving and then returning Hungary's prestigious Táncsics prize for journalism. Criticism of the Orban government's award was intense because Szaniszló is known for his anti-semitic and anti-Roma comments on national television. The page and talk page has been disputed since the event and the creation of Szaniszló's page, because I feel that, in keeping with international press coverage, the political context of Szaniszló's award should be described. This means, following international press commentary, mentioning two other far-right figures who received concurrent awards. It also means, following international press commentary, describing the Orban-Fidesz government's reason for giving the award to Szaniszló. Other editors object to " an effort again to mix Fidesz with Jobbik," " negative propaganda towards hungarian events," a " political witch hunt," and have argued that this material should not be included on the basis of these wikipedia policies: WP:POV, WP:SOAP, WP:DUE and WP:BIO. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Overall, users involved have attempted to resolve the conflict on the talk page by analyzing or presenting sources, by citing and reviewing policies, through two RfCs, and by proposed compromises. How do you think we can help? I think that dispute resolution from experienced and uninvolved editors may help resolve what the appropriate scope and content of this article can be, based upon available or already cited international press coverage, and upon the policies cited by other editors. In my view, this would involve 1) establishing what an article based on international press coverage would look like, and 2) an agreement regarding the nature of WP:SOAP, WP:DUE and WP:BIO. Opening comments by Norden1990Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
This is only a biographical article, and not a publication about the situation of Romani people in Hungary. And I have to say it is also not a collection of news. For example Joelle Stolz, a political journalist is not a reliable source for discussion of the situation in Hungary, and these articles are filled with factual errors. Moreover, I don't know Szaniszló and Petrás how they relate each other? The latter figure received a completely different award. Furthermore the Táncsics award is not a state prize. The current article is disproportionate and in many cases is different from the subject (namely Szaniszló). Petrás, Bakay, alleged discrimination... are totally different things. In recent months several articles were created in the purpose of discrediting campaign and propaganda against Hungary. There is no better evidence than that Darouet deleted info from the lead which explained why Szaniszló was awarded the prize. However, the political comment by the misinformed "journalists" and MSZP (oppoisition party, so clearly political opinion) member Nyakó in the article is treated as fact. -- Norden1990 ( talk) 11:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by KoertefaPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by LtbuniAdding the Prof. and the Singer to the Article would totally give the impression to a foreigner, that the FIDESZ is extremist, antisemitic or it wants the voters of the Jobbik - even though in reality Fidesz has already got at least 68% of the seats in the Parliament - based only on the fact that 2 others were given prizes. Making such impression is always the tactics of the MSZP, it is pure politics. I. As I've already written, others - including a famous Jewish scholar - were awarded. If our goal is to report on the event, and not smearing the govt, then if we add the above mentioned two, why don't we insert the Jewish professor as well? And why don't we write why the Prof. and the Singer were awarded? Prof. B. is not my favorite scientists, his current views on Jesus/Parthians etc are rubbish, but we have to admit, that he WAS a good archeologist, his publications on Kőszeg seem to be very professional, and the others as well.What is more he has published works in English:
Apart from his insane views on something, he was not a nobody, who only merited the award for his political position... Why do we arbitrarily pick up two or three, politically sensible sentences from him, to demonstrate the reason for his award? What if he was really a good scientist, and this is just a honorary award, before he dies? The article does not give anything of the other aspect of his life. It would be libel, if we did not specify his earlier works. Even those, who laugh at him, say that he was not as bad as he is now... http://www.tenyleg.com/index.php?action=recordView&type=places&category_id=3115&id=278638 http://kikicsoda.regeszet.org.hu/hu/node/219 II. I have never ever heard of Mr. Petrás... Is he a racist or not? I do not know - the only thing Mr. Darouet mentioned about him, was that his song is used as an anthem by the Jobbik. Is this his only characteristic? So, that is why I thought it was soapboxing: because of the selective handling of the participants' data. We should not make impressions or feelings. We should give facts, as much as possible, and let the readers decide what really happened. III. So, my proposal:The present state of the article is fine - it's not worth re-editing it, but if Mr. D. insists: 1. Separate article on the Singer and the Prof. or 2. Separate article on the reflections of the international press on the award-giving (highly doubtful, this would worth an article...) or 3. We can add that others were given prizes - not the same one, BTW - and that it gives the impression, that Fidesz wants to do something with Jobbik - but We should add, that it is the opinion of the opposition. At the very same time, We should add, that this or that accusation of the opposition is questioned by the govt. and we should cite the efforts of the govt fighting antisemitism or racism, or something. Otherwise we start an endless edit war. In this case, for example, I would extend the article with these: http://www.boon.hu/hungary-govt-committed-to-fighting-anti-semitism-says-israeli-ambassador/2314533 http://www.eu2011.hu/developing-european-roma-policy Some extra articles: The aim of the DCO policy is to deter abuse of the refugee system by people who come from countries generally considered safe. List of safe countries: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/reform-safe.asp Please note that these are official gov't (Israel, Canada, Hungary, EU) documents and statements. -- Ltbuni ( talk) 18:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by Thucydides411The main question here is whether the article will assign weight according to what major international newspapers decided was important in their coverage of Ferenc Szaniszló, or whether other considerations will dictate what is included in the article. The international press very strongly linked the prize given to Ferenc Szaniszló with the prizes concurrently awarded to Kornél Bakay and János Petrás. They portrayed the awards given to these three people at the same time as part of a broader effort by the Fidesz government to court the far right. This has been thoroughly discussed on the talk page for Ferenc Szaniszló, with Darouet compiling a list of newspaper articles and noting what aspects of Ferenc Szaniszló's career and award were mentioned. A majority of the newspaper articles discussed the award in the context of the Orbán government and far-right politics. The sources are clear on this point. The other side of the argument, being advanced by Norden, Ltbuni and Koertefa, is that this article is solely about Szaniszló, and that discussing the context of his award is inappropriate. Regardless of what the international press deems important about Szaniszló, they argue, Wikipedia should omit mention of other people involved in the most notable event of Szaniszló's biography. If this argument is correct, it sets a very unreasonable constraint on what issues can be dealt with in biographical entries on Wikipedia. A biography can mention people other than the subject, if they are important to some aspect of that person's life. Who is important to Szaniszló's biography in this case? I think we should follow what reputable sources have decided to emphasize. That means that we should mention the concurrent prizes, just as the majority of international newspapers did when reporting on Szaniszló. Leaving out this context only makes the article less informative and representative of the reliable sources we have. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 21:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by FakirbakirPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
DiscussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hello, I'm Mark and welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I am going to open the discussion while I take a closer look at the request. Please feel free to begin.-- Mark Miller Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 09:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Looking over the WP:BIO policies again, my impression is that content must be 1) reliably sourced (and reflect due weight given by sources) ( WP:BLPSOURCES), 2) remain neutral in tone ( WP:BLPSTYLE), and 3) refrain from giving undue attention to those who don't warrant it ( WP:WELLKNOWN and WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE). Regarding tone, I want it to be neutral and don't believe a dispassionate account as given by newspapers would violate neutrality. Regarding Ferenc Szaniszló's notoriety, he is described by reliable sources (see below) as a public figure, being a media presenter on Echo TV, which newspapers write is associated with the ruling government in Hungary. His job is to broadcast himself and his views on national television every day: I would think this is the definition of a public figure. Because content from reliable sources is so critical, I'll leave a series of references below from most of continental Europe's largest newspapers, and from the New York Times, the BBC and Independent. The disputed and removed content - referencing Bakay and Petras - derives from these sources (except the Tagesspiegel). Original text and translations are provided when necessary: 1. The Independent, Hungarian government awards Tancsics prize for journalism to notorious anti-Semite Ferenc Szaniszlo, [1]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Hungary’s right-wing government faced fierce criticism today for awarding its top state journalism prize to a television presenter notorious for spreading Jewish conspiracy theories and describing the country’s Roma minority as “human monkeys”. Media reports from Budapest said the government of conservative premier Viktor Orban had awarded Hungary’s annual Tancsics prize – the country’s highest journalistic award – to Ferenc Szaniszlo, a presenter for the pro-government Echo TV channel. Mr Szaniszlo’s anti-Semitic outbursts and his detrimental remarks about the country’s ostracised Roma minority were made on air in 2011 and prompted Hungary’s state-controlled media watchdog body to fine the channel... Other recipients included the musician, Janos Petras, lead singer of the group Karpatia, which is regarded as the house band of Hungary’s extreme right-wing and virulently anti-Semitic Jobbik party, and the archaeologist Kornel Bakay, who has claimed Jesus Christ was Hungarian and that the Jews were slave traders during the Middle Ages." 2. BBC, Anger in Hungary at prize for 'anti-Semitic' reporter, [2]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Anger has erupted in Hungary over the award of a prestigious state journalism prize to a TV presenter who is frequently accused of anti-Roma and anti-Semitic comments. Ferenc Szaniszlo was one of three journalists awarded the Mihaly Tancsics prize last week... The choice of two other recipients of national honours on the same day has also been sharply criticised - archaeologist Kornel Bakay for allegedly anti-Semitic comments, and musician Janos Petras of the rock band Karpatia, which is associated with the far-right Jobbik party." 3. The New York Times, Politics Spills Onto Stage in Budapest, [3]: Relevant text from newspaper
"But last month the government gave the Tancsics Award, its top award in journalism, to Ferenc Szaniszlo, a presenter for the pro-government Echo TV channel who is known for anti-Semitic outbursts and detrimental remarks about the country’s ostracized Roma minority. Janos Petras, the lead singer of Karpatia, who composed the anthem for Jobbik’s paramilitary wing, calling for an “immaculate nation” and the expansion of Hungary’s borders, was also given an award. Although protests in Hungary and abroad led to Mr. Szaniszlo returning the award, the feeling that Fidesz is courting Jobbik supporters remains." 4. Haaretz, Israel condemns award to Hungarian reporter it calls anti-Semitic, republished from Reuters, [4]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Nils Muiznieks, human rights commissioner at the Council of Europe, said he was concerned by Hungary's decision to give awards to Szaniszlo and two other people, all of whom, he said 'have made no secret of their anti-Semitic and racist views.' 'Giving the annual Tancsics prize to a journalist notorious for his positions against Jewish and Roma people, as well as medals to a singer of an extreme right, nationalist music band and to an archaeologist known for his theories clearly tainted by anti-Semitism is an insult to our past and flies in the face of European and democratic values,' Muiznieks said in a statement. Hungary gave awards to some 200 academics, journalists and artists to mark a national holiday last week. They included Janos Petras, singer in a far-right rock group, Karpatia, and archaeologist Kornel Bakay, who organised a controversial exhibition in 2003 about Hungary's Nazi past. Neither could immediately be reached for comment." 5. Tagesschau (Germany), Antisemitischer TV-Moderator gibt Staatspreis zurück (Antisemitin TV moderater returns his state prize), [5]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Die beiden anderen Geehrten - der Sänger der Rechtsrock-Band "Kárpátia" und der rechtsextreme Archäologe, Kornél Bakay, - dürfen den höchsten ungarischen Staatspreis für Publizisten offenbar behalten." Translation
It was revealed that the other two honorees - singer of the Nazi rock band "Kárpátia" and the right-wing archaeologist, Kornel Bakay - may keep the Hungarian state awards. 6. Die Zeit, Ungarns Regierung vergibt Orden an Antisemiten (Hungary's government gives medals to anti-semites, [6]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Ungarns rechtskonservative Regierung hat hohe staatliche Auszeichnungen an Antisemiten und Rechtsextreme vergeben. Der Fernsehmoderator Ferenc Szaniszlo erhielt zum Nationalfeiertag am 15. März den Táncsics-Preis, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte in dem der Regierungspartei Fidesz nahestehenden Fernsehsender Echo TV antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet und die Minderheit der Roma als "Menschenaffen" diffamiert... Ungarns Regierung ehrte zudem den Archäologen Kornél Bakay mit einem Verdienstorden. Bakay erregte immer wieder Aufsehen mit antisemitischen Behauptungen. So unterstellt er, dass Juden im Mittelalter den Sklavenhandel organisiert hätten. Zudem behauptet er, dass Jesus Christus kein Jude gewesen sei, sondern ein Prinz aus dem – angeblich mit den Ungarn verwandten – alt-iranischen Volk der Parther... Das Goldene Verdienstkreuz erhielt der Leadsänger der Rockband Kárpátia, Petrás János. Die Gruppe gilt als Hausband der rechtsextremen Partei Jobbik. Sie schuf auch den Marsch für die inzwischen verbotene, von der Jobbik ins Leben gerufene, paramilitärische Ungarische Garde. Die Band besingt in ihren Texten die "unbefleckte Nation". Auch ruft sie dazu auf, die Grenzen Ungarns mit Gewalt auszuweiten." Translation
Hungary's right-wing government has awarded high state awards to the extreme right and to anti-Semites. On a national holiday, 15 March, the TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo received the Táncsics Prize, the highest state award for journalists. On Echo TV, the television station associated with the ruling Fidesz party, Szaniszlo has spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and defamed the Roma minority as "apes"... Hungary's government also honored the archaeologists Kornel Bakay with a Merit award. Bakay caused a stir, again, with anti-Semitic statements, and has assumed that Jews organized the slave trade in the Middle Ages. He also claimed that Jesus Christ was not a Jew, but a prince of the the Parthians (supposedly related to Hungarians)... The Golden Cross of Merit was given to the lead singer of the rock band Kárpátia, Petrás János. The group is regarded as the house band of the far-right party Jobbik. They also created the march for the now banned paramilitary Hungarian Guard, launched by Jobbik. The band sings in their lyrics of the "immaculate nation." It also calls for expanding the borders of the country by force. 7. Süddeutsche Zeitung, Regierung verleiht Orden an antisemitischen Journalisten, [7]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Nach ungarischen Medienberichten hat der Fernsehmoderator Ferenc Szaniszlo zum Nationalfeiertag am 15. März den Tancsics-Preis erhalten, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte in dem der Fidesz-Partei nahestehenden Sender Echo TV antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet und die Minderheit der Roma als "Menschenaffen" diffamiert. Die staatliche Medienaufsichtsbehörde hatte den Sender deshalb 2011 mit einer Geldstrafe belegt. Mit dem Verdienstorden ausgezeichnet wurde der Archäologe Kornel Bakay, der von Jesus Christus behauptet, er sei kein Jude, sondern ein Prinz aus dem - angeblich mit den Ungarn verwandten - alt-iranischen Volk der Parther gewesen. Außerdem unterstellt er den Juden, im Mittelalter Sklavenhandel organisiert zu haben. Eine andere Auszeichnung - das Goldene Verdienstkreuz - erhielt Janos Petras, der Leadsänger der Rockband "Karpatia". Die Musiker besingen in ihren Texten die "unbefleckte Nation" und ruft zu gewaltsamen Veränderungen der Grenzen Ungarns auf. Karpatia gilt als erklärte Lieblingsband der rechtsextremen Parlamentspartei Jobbik. Sie schuf auch den Marsch für die inzwischen verbotene, von der Jobbik ins Leben gerufenen paramilitärischen Ungarischen Garde... Oppositionelle Kommentatoren werteten die Ehrung rechtsextremer Persönlichkeiten als Geste der Regierung an die Jobbik und an die extreme Rechte." 8. Der Tagesspiegel, Ferenc Szaniszlo: Ungarn ehrt antisemitischen Journalisten (Ferenc Szaniszlo: Hungary honors anti-semitic journalist), [8]: Relevant text from newspaper
"In Ungarn ist der rassistische TV-Moderator Ferenc Szaniszlo am Nationalfeiertag durch die Regierung mit einem Preis geehrt worden. Wie ungarische Medien am Wochenende berichteten, erhielt Szaniszlo am vergangenen Freitag den Tancsics-Preis, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte im Sender Echo TV, welcher der Regierungspartei Fidesz nahesteht, antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet. Sozialminister Zoltan Balog nannte die Vergabe 'bedauerlich', schloss eine Aberkennung aus juristischen Gründen aber aus. " Translation
In Hungary, the racist TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo had been honored by the National Government with a fine. Now Hungarian media reported this weekend that last Friday Szaniszlo received the Tancsics Award, the highest state award for journalists. Szaniszlo had used Echo TV, which is close to the ruling party Fidesz, to spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Social Minister Zoltan Balog called the award "unfortunate... 9. Le Figaro, Hongrie : Viktor Orban met l'extrême droite à l'honneur (Hungary: Orban honors the extreme right), [9]: Relevant text from newspaper
"La petite Hongrie résiste moins que d'autres à ses démons nationalistes. Son premier ministre, Viktor Orban, un conservateur, vient de décerner, à l'occasion de la Fête nationale du 15 mars, plusieurs distinctions à des personnalités on ne peut plus controversées. Ferenc Szaniszlo par exemple, journaliste à la télévision Echo TV. Proche du Fidesz, la formation d'Orban, Szaniszlo, qui a reçu le prix Tancsics, est connu pour ses diatribes antisémites et antiroms. En 2011, il avait été réprimandé par l'Autorité de surveillance des médias pour avoir comparé les Roms à des «singes». En signe de protestation, une dizaine de journalistes qui ont obtenu ce prix l'ont aussitôt rendu. Le chef du gouvernement hongrois a également décoré un archéologue, Kornel Bakay, connu lui aussi pour ses thèses racistes. Bakay s'est fait remarquer en accusant les Juifs d'avoir organisé le commerce d'esclaves au Moyen Âge. Enfin, Janos Petras, célèbre chanteur de rock, a reçu la Croix d'or du Mérite. Petras ne cache pas sa sympathie pour le parti d'extrême droite Jobbik. Il a participé jadis à la marche de la Garde hongroise, une organisation paramilitaire aujourd'hui interdite, et rêve tout haut de reconstruire la Grande Hongrie, celle d'avant la Première Guerre mondiale." Translation
Little Hungary is less able to resist its nationalist démons. Its prime minister, Viktor Orban, a conservative, just gave, on the occasion of the national holiday on 15 March, many distinctions to many more-than-a-little controversial personalities. Ferenc Szaniszlo, for example: journalist at the television station Echo TV. Close to Fidesz, Orban's Party, Szaniszlo, who received the Tancsics prize, is known for his anti-semitic and antiroman diatribes. In 2011, hé was reprimanded by media watchdog authorities for having compared the Roma to monkey... The head of the Hungarian government also decorated an archaeologist, Bakay, known as well for his racist theories... Lastly, Janos Petras, a celebrated rock singer, received the Golden Cross of Merit. Petras doesn't hide his sympathy for extreme-right party Jobbik. He participated in the march of the Hungarian Guard, a paramilitary organization now forbidden, and dreams as high as reconstructing the old Hungary of pre-WWI days. 10. Le Monde, Prime au fascisme en Hongrie (Primed for fascism in Hungary), [10]: Translation
Other personalities decorated on March 15th posed problems. For example Janos Petras: lead singer of rock band Karpatia, who composed the anthem of the Hungarian Guard. This non-military army, nevertheless aggressive, was launched in 2007 by the neo-fascist Jobbik party; its activists march uniformed in Roma neighborhoods to intimidate them. Another distinguished on March 15 was Kornel Bakay. This archaeologist professed strange ideas on the origin of Jesus Christ, who was not Jewish but a Parthian prince (the Parthians being in his ancestors of the Hungarians). His theory had earlier pleased many pseudo-scientists in German Nazi. In 2003, Bakay organized an exhibition in honor of the Arrow Cross fascist movement and Ferenc Szalasi, an ally of Hitler. It was closed at the request of authorities because she was openly promoting the movement, which in 1944 facilitated the deportation of 200,000 Hungarian Jews and Gypsies. 11. la Repubblica, Orban decora tre razzisti antisemiti dall'Ungheria nuova sfida all'Europa (New challenge for Europe: Orban decorates three antisemites and racists in Hungary), [11]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Il primo è quello del premio Tancics, tradizionale e importante premio per i migliori giornalisti, conferito a Ferenc Szanizslò, commentatore alla televisione Echo TV, ritenuto vicinissimo alla Fidesz, cioè al partito di Orbàn, e noto per le tesi apertamente razziste che espone in pubblico... Il secondo caso è quello di Kornel Bakay, che ha ricevuto per decisione del governo l'Ordine al merito. Bakay è un archeologo noto per il suo aperto, radicale antisemitismo. Tra l'altro aveva fatto scandalo a livello mondiale asserendo in pubblico che sarebbero stati gli ebrei a organizzare la tratta degli schiavi dal medioevo all'abolizionismo. Mentre è noto che lo schiavismo fu organizzato dalle potenze di allora e dall'attivissima (e per loro proficua) collaborazione di tribù e potentati arabi in Africa. Il terzo caso riguara Janos Petras, cantante della rock band 'Karpatia'. E'in sostanza un gruppo nazirock, vicinissimo ai neonazisti antisemiti di Jobbik che amano ascoltare la loro musica nelle adunate. Petras ha ricevuto la croce d'oro al merito. Tra i motivi più noti cantati da lui e dal suo gruppo ce ne sono alcuni che inneggiano alla revisione delle frontiere europee con la ricostituzione della 'Grande Ungheria', cioè riprendendosi territori oggi slovacchi, ucraini, serbi e romeni. Il gruppo Karpatia ha anche partecipato anche a marce della Magyar Gàrda (Guardia magiara), il gruppo paramilitare di Jobbik con le uniformi nere e simboli fascistoidi, ufficialmente fuorilegge ma che continua a farsi vedere tranquillamente." Translation
The first award is the Tancics, traditional and important for Hungary's best journalists, given to Ferenc Szanizslò, commentator on television Echo TV, considered close to Orban's party Fidesz and known for openly racist theses expounded in public ... The second case is that of Kornel Bakay, who has received the Order of Merit. Bakay is an archaeologist known for his open, radical anti-Semitism. Among other things he caused a scandal by claiming in public that the Jews to organized the slave trade from the Middle Ages until abolition... The third case concerns Janos Petras, lead singer of the rock band 'Karpatia'. In essence Karpatia is a nazi-rock group and close to the neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, Jobbik party, who enjoy listening to its music in their gatherings. Petras received the golden Cross of Merit... Karpatia the group has also participated marches of the Magyar Garda (Hungarian Guard), Jobbik's paramilitary group with black uniforms and fascist symbols, officially outlawed but still visible in Hungary. 12. L'Independenza, Orban, il “nemico” ungherese creato dall’Unione Europea (Orban, the Hungarian enemy, created by the EU), [12]: Relevant text from newspaper
"E così ha dato il premio Tancsics per il giornalismo a Ferenc Szaniszló, noto per aver paragonato i Rom alle scimmie e per aver detto che “gli ebrei hanno occupato l’Ungheria o comunque la stanno per occupare”, fra le tante altre cose dello stesso tenore. Poi è stato assegnato l’Ordine al Merito a Kornel Bakay, archeologo, noto per le sue tesi antisemite sulla storia, fra cui quella secondo cui gli ebrei avrebbero organizzato loro la tratta degli schiavi, dal Medio Evo sino al secolo scorso. Infine, la Croce d’Oro al Merito è andata a Janos Petras, frontman della band ultranazionalista Karpatia." Translation
And so Hungary gave the Tancsics journalism prize to Ferenc Szaniszló, known for having compared the Roma with monkeys and to have said that 'the Jews have occupied or will soon occupy Hungary', among many other things of the same tenor. Also awarded the Order Merit was Kornel Bakay, an archaeologist, known for his thesis on the history of anti-Semitism, including the thesis that the Jews may have organized the slave trade from the Middle Ages until the last century. Finally, the Gold Cross of Merit went to Janos Petras, frontman of the ultra-nationalist band Karpatia. 13. de Volkskrant, Hongaarse regering kent antisemieten prijzen toe (Hungarian government gives out anti-semitic prizes), [13]: Relevant text from newspaper
"De tv-presentator Ferenc Szaniszlo ontving de Tancsics-prijs, de hoogste onderscheiding van de staat voor journalisten. Szaniszlo verspreidde voor de tv-zender Echo TV antisemitische complottheorieën en noemde de Roma in zijn land 'mensapen'. Ook Janos Petras, de zanger van de rockband Karpatia kreeg een onderscheiding. De zanger roept in zijn teksten op tot gewelddadige wijzigingen van de Hongaarse grenzen." Translation
TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo Tancsics received the Prize, the highest state award for journalists. On the television channel Echo TV, Szaniszlo spread antisemitic conspiracy theories and called the Roma in his country 'apes'. Janos Petras, the lead singer of the rock band Karpatia, also received an award. The singer's lyrics call for violent changes to Hungary's borders. 14. Novinky.cz, V Maďarsku vyznamenali antisemitského novináře i nacionalistickou kapelu (Hungary: the distinguished journalist and anti-Semitic band), [14]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Značné pobouření vyvolala jména Maďarů vyznamenaných Táncsicsovou cenou. Je mezi nimi nacionalistická kapela i novinář Ferenc Szaniszló, který je známý svými extrémními a antisemitskými názory. Několik známých novinářů stejné vyznamenání, jaké dostal Szainiszló, na znamení protestu vrátilo... Řád za zásluhy dostal archeolog Kornél Bakay, který je rovněž známý antisemita. Přišel s tezí, že za středověkým obchodem s otroky stáli Židé. Stejný řád převzal i zpěvák a baskytarista nacionalistické rockové skupiny Kárpátia János Petrás. Skupina ve svých textech otevřeně vyzývá k revizi stávajících maďarských hranic a připojení tzv. odtržených území a používá velkouherské symboliky. Účastnila se i pochodů dnes již zakázané Maďarské národní gardy." Translation
Outrage sparked at Hungarians named with prizes including the Tancsics. Among them are a nationalist band and the journalist Ferenc Szaniszló, known for extreme and anti-Semitic views. Several well-known journalists previously awarded the same prize as Szanislo returned their awards in protest. These articles, almost all of them about Szaniszlo and his award, all mention Bakay and Petras. Many of them also remark on the relation between Szaniszlo, Echo TV and Fidesz. So, reliable sources and due weight, based on available coverage, would suggest that this material should be included because it provides information both about Szaniszlo (his relationship to Fidesz) and his award (given alongside awards to Bakay and Petras). - Darouet ( talk) 23:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Are there any last comments about how Bakay and Petras might raise BLP issues other than reliably sourced content, clearly addressed above? - Darouet ( talk) 01:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC) reply
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Ferenc Szaniszló ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
– General close. See comments for reasoning.28 July 2013
| Stale or resolved, but in any event long past its ordinary 2-week lifespan here at DRN. In light of its complex DR history, if more help is needed about all I can suggest is formal mediation, but that will not work unless all primary participants in the dispute are willing to participate. — TransporterMan ( TALK) 14:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC) reply |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Ferenc Szaniszló is a well-known Hungarian TV figure who made international headlines, in March of this year, after receiving and then returning Hungary's prestigious Táncsics prize for journalism. Criticism of the Orban government's award was intense because Szaniszló is known for his anti-semitic and anti-Roma comments on national television. The page and talk page has been disputed since the event and the creation of Szaniszló's page, because I feel that, in keeping with international press coverage, the political context of Szaniszló's award should be described. This means, following international press commentary, mentioning two other far-right figures who received concurrent awards. It also means, following international press commentary, describing the Orban-Fidesz government's reason for giving the award to Szaniszló. Other editors object to " an effort again to mix Fidesz with Jobbik," " negative propaganda towards hungarian events," a " political witch hunt," and have argued that this material should not be included on the basis of these wikipedia policies: WP:POV, WP:SOAP, WP:DUE and WP:BIO. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Overall, users involved have attempted to resolve the conflict on the talk page by analyzing or presenting sources, by citing and reviewing policies, through two RfCs, and by proposed compromises. How do you think we can help? I think that dispute resolution from experienced and uninvolved editors may help resolve what the appropriate scope and content of this article can be, based upon available or already cited international press coverage, and upon the policies cited by other editors. In my view, this would involve 1) establishing what an article based on international press coverage would look like, and 2) an agreement regarding the nature of WP:SOAP, WP:DUE and WP:BIO. Opening comments by Norden1990Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
This is only a biographical article, and not a publication about the situation of Romani people in Hungary. And I have to say it is also not a collection of news. For example Joelle Stolz, a political journalist is not a reliable source for discussion of the situation in Hungary, and these articles are filled with factual errors. Moreover, I don't know Szaniszló and Petrás how they relate each other? The latter figure received a completely different award. Furthermore the Táncsics award is not a state prize. The current article is disproportionate and in many cases is different from the subject (namely Szaniszló). Petrás, Bakay, alleged discrimination... are totally different things. In recent months several articles were created in the purpose of discrediting campaign and propaganda against Hungary. There is no better evidence than that Darouet deleted info from the lead which explained why Szaniszló was awarded the prize. However, the political comment by the misinformed "journalists" and MSZP (oppoisition party, so clearly political opinion) member Nyakó in the article is treated as fact. -- Norden1990 ( talk) 11:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by KoertefaPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by LtbuniAdding the Prof. and the Singer to the Article would totally give the impression to a foreigner, that the FIDESZ is extremist, antisemitic or it wants the voters of the Jobbik - even though in reality Fidesz has already got at least 68% of the seats in the Parliament - based only on the fact that 2 others were given prizes. Making such impression is always the tactics of the MSZP, it is pure politics. I. As I've already written, others - including a famous Jewish scholar - were awarded. If our goal is to report on the event, and not smearing the govt, then if we add the above mentioned two, why don't we insert the Jewish professor as well? And why don't we write why the Prof. and the Singer were awarded? Prof. B. is not my favorite scientists, his current views on Jesus/Parthians etc are rubbish, but we have to admit, that he WAS a good archeologist, his publications on Kőszeg seem to be very professional, and the others as well.What is more he has published works in English:
Apart from his insane views on something, he was not a nobody, who only merited the award for his political position... Why do we arbitrarily pick up two or three, politically sensible sentences from him, to demonstrate the reason for his award? What if he was really a good scientist, and this is just a honorary award, before he dies? The article does not give anything of the other aspect of his life. It would be libel, if we did not specify his earlier works. Even those, who laugh at him, say that he was not as bad as he is now... http://www.tenyleg.com/index.php?action=recordView&type=places&category_id=3115&id=278638 http://kikicsoda.regeszet.org.hu/hu/node/219 II. I have never ever heard of Mr. Petrás... Is he a racist or not? I do not know - the only thing Mr. Darouet mentioned about him, was that his song is used as an anthem by the Jobbik. Is this his only characteristic? So, that is why I thought it was soapboxing: because of the selective handling of the participants' data. We should not make impressions or feelings. We should give facts, as much as possible, and let the readers decide what really happened. III. So, my proposal:The present state of the article is fine - it's not worth re-editing it, but if Mr. D. insists: 1. Separate article on the Singer and the Prof. or 2. Separate article on the reflections of the international press on the award-giving (highly doubtful, this would worth an article...) or 3. We can add that others were given prizes - not the same one, BTW - and that it gives the impression, that Fidesz wants to do something with Jobbik - but We should add, that it is the opinion of the opposition. At the very same time, We should add, that this or that accusation of the opposition is questioned by the govt. and we should cite the efforts of the govt fighting antisemitism or racism, or something. Otherwise we start an endless edit war. In this case, for example, I would extend the article with these: http://www.boon.hu/hungary-govt-committed-to-fighting-anti-semitism-says-israeli-ambassador/2314533 http://www.eu2011.hu/developing-european-roma-policy Some extra articles: The aim of the DCO policy is to deter abuse of the refugee system by people who come from countries generally considered safe. List of safe countries: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/reform-safe.asp Please note that these are official gov't (Israel, Canada, Hungary, EU) documents and statements. -- Ltbuni ( talk) 18:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by Thucydides411The main question here is whether the article will assign weight according to what major international newspapers decided was important in their coverage of Ferenc Szaniszló, or whether other considerations will dictate what is included in the article. The international press very strongly linked the prize given to Ferenc Szaniszló with the prizes concurrently awarded to Kornél Bakay and János Petrás. They portrayed the awards given to these three people at the same time as part of a broader effort by the Fidesz government to court the far right. This has been thoroughly discussed on the talk page for Ferenc Szaniszló, with Darouet compiling a list of newspaper articles and noting what aspects of Ferenc Szaniszló's career and award were mentioned. A majority of the newspaper articles discussed the award in the context of the Orbán government and far-right politics. The sources are clear on this point. The other side of the argument, being advanced by Norden, Ltbuni and Koertefa, is that this article is solely about Szaniszló, and that discussing the context of his award is inappropriate. Regardless of what the international press deems important about Szaniszló, they argue, Wikipedia should omit mention of other people involved in the most notable event of Szaniszló's biography. If this argument is correct, it sets a very unreasonable constraint on what issues can be dealt with in biographical entries on Wikipedia. A biography can mention people other than the subject, if they are important to some aspect of that person's life. Who is important to Szaniszló's biography in this case? I think we should follow what reputable sources have decided to emphasize. That means that we should mention the concurrent prizes, just as the majority of international newspapers did when reporting on Szaniszló. Leaving out this context only makes the article less informative and representative of the reliable sources we have. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 21:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC) reply Opening comments by FakirbakirPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
DiscussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hello, I'm Mark and welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I am going to open the discussion while I take a closer look at the request. Please feel free to begin.-- Mark Miller Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 09:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Looking over the WP:BIO policies again, my impression is that content must be 1) reliably sourced (and reflect due weight given by sources) ( WP:BLPSOURCES), 2) remain neutral in tone ( WP:BLPSTYLE), and 3) refrain from giving undue attention to those who don't warrant it ( WP:WELLKNOWN and WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE). Regarding tone, I want it to be neutral and don't believe a dispassionate account as given by newspapers would violate neutrality. Regarding Ferenc Szaniszló's notoriety, he is described by reliable sources (see below) as a public figure, being a media presenter on Echo TV, which newspapers write is associated with the ruling government in Hungary. His job is to broadcast himself and his views on national television every day: I would think this is the definition of a public figure. Because content from reliable sources is so critical, I'll leave a series of references below from most of continental Europe's largest newspapers, and from the New York Times, the BBC and Independent. The disputed and removed content - referencing Bakay and Petras - derives from these sources (except the Tagesspiegel). Original text and translations are provided when necessary: 1. The Independent, Hungarian government awards Tancsics prize for journalism to notorious anti-Semite Ferenc Szaniszlo, [1]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Hungary’s right-wing government faced fierce criticism today for awarding its top state journalism prize to a television presenter notorious for spreading Jewish conspiracy theories and describing the country’s Roma minority as “human monkeys”. Media reports from Budapest said the government of conservative premier Viktor Orban had awarded Hungary’s annual Tancsics prize – the country’s highest journalistic award – to Ferenc Szaniszlo, a presenter for the pro-government Echo TV channel. Mr Szaniszlo’s anti-Semitic outbursts and his detrimental remarks about the country’s ostracised Roma minority were made on air in 2011 and prompted Hungary’s state-controlled media watchdog body to fine the channel... Other recipients included the musician, Janos Petras, lead singer of the group Karpatia, which is regarded as the house band of Hungary’s extreme right-wing and virulently anti-Semitic Jobbik party, and the archaeologist Kornel Bakay, who has claimed Jesus Christ was Hungarian and that the Jews were slave traders during the Middle Ages." 2. BBC, Anger in Hungary at prize for 'anti-Semitic' reporter, [2]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Anger has erupted in Hungary over the award of a prestigious state journalism prize to a TV presenter who is frequently accused of anti-Roma and anti-Semitic comments. Ferenc Szaniszlo was one of three journalists awarded the Mihaly Tancsics prize last week... The choice of two other recipients of national honours on the same day has also been sharply criticised - archaeologist Kornel Bakay for allegedly anti-Semitic comments, and musician Janos Petras of the rock band Karpatia, which is associated with the far-right Jobbik party." 3. The New York Times, Politics Spills Onto Stage in Budapest, [3]: Relevant text from newspaper
"But last month the government gave the Tancsics Award, its top award in journalism, to Ferenc Szaniszlo, a presenter for the pro-government Echo TV channel who is known for anti-Semitic outbursts and detrimental remarks about the country’s ostracized Roma minority. Janos Petras, the lead singer of Karpatia, who composed the anthem for Jobbik’s paramilitary wing, calling for an “immaculate nation” and the expansion of Hungary’s borders, was also given an award. Although protests in Hungary and abroad led to Mr. Szaniszlo returning the award, the feeling that Fidesz is courting Jobbik supporters remains." 4. Haaretz, Israel condemns award to Hungarian reporter it calls anti-Semitic, republished from Reuters, [4]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Nils Muiznieks, human rights commissioner at the Council of Europe, said he was concerned by Hungary's decision to give awards to Szaniszlo and two other people, all of whom, he said 'have made no secret of their anti-Semitic and racist views.' 'Giving the annual Tancsics prize to a journalist notorious for his positions against Jewish and Roma people, as well as medals to a singer of an extreme right, nationalist music band and to an archaeologist known for his theories clearly tainted by anti-Semitism is an insult to our past and flies in the face of European and democratic values,' Muiznieks said in a statement. Hungary gave awards to some 200 academics, journalists and artists to mark a national holiday last week. They included Janos Petras, singer in a far-right rock group, Karpatia, and archaeologist Kornel Bakay, who organised a controversial exhibition in 2003 about Hungary's Nazi past. Neither could immediately be reached for comment." 5. Tagesschau (Germany), Antisemitischer TV-Moderator gibt Staatspreis zurück (Antisemitin TV moderater returns his state prize), [5]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Die beiden anderen Geehrten - der Sänger der Rechtsrock-Band "Kárpátia" und der rechtsextreme Archäologe, Kornél Bakay, - dürfen den höchsten ungarischen Staatspreis für Publizisten offenbar behalten." Translation
It was revealed that the other two honorees - singer of the Nazi rock band "Kárpátia" and the right-wing archaeologist, Kornel Bakay - may keep the Hungarian state awards. 6. Die Zeit, Ungarns Regierung vergibt Orden an Antisemiten (Hungary's government gives medals to anti-semites, [6]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Ungarns rechtskonservative Regierung hat hohe staatliche Auszeichnungen an Antisemiten und Rechtsextreme vergeben. Der Fernsehmoderator Ferenc Szaniszlo erhielt zum Nationalfeiertag am 15. März den Táncsics-Preis, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte in dem der Regierungspartei Fidesz nahestehenden Fernsehsender Echo TV antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet und die Minderheit der Roma als "Menschenaffen" diffamiert... Ungarns Regierung ehrte zudem den Archäologen Kornél Bakay mit einem Verdienstorden. Bakay erregte immer wieder Aufsehen mit antisemitischen Behauptungen. So unterstellt er, dass Juden im Mittelalter den Sklavenhandel organisiert hätten. Zudem behauptet er, dass Jesus Christus kein Jude gewesen sei, sondern ein Prinz aus dem – angeblich mit den Ungarn verwandten – alt-iranischen Volk der Parther... Das Goldene Verdienstkreuz erhielt der Leadsänger der Rockband Kárpátia, Petrás János. Die Gruppe gilt als Hausband der rechtsextremen Partei Jobbik. Sie schuf auch den Marsch für die inzwischen verbotene, von der Jobbik ins Leben gerufene, paramilitärische Ungarische Garde. Die Band besingt in ihren Texten die "unbefleckte Nation". Auch ruft sie dazu auf, die Grenzen Ungarns mit Gewalt auszuweiten." Translation
Hungary's right-wing government has awarded high state awards to the extreme right and to anti-Semites. On a national holiday, 15 March, the TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo received the Táncsics Prize, the highest state award for journalists. On Echo TV, the television station associated with the ruling Fidesz party, Szaniszlo has spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and defamed the Roma minority as "apes"... Hungary's government also honored the archaeologists Kornel Bakay with a Merit award. Bakay caused a stir, again, with anti-Semitic statements, and has assumed that Jews organized the slave trade in the Middle Ages. He also claimed that Jesus Christ was not a Jew, but a prince of the the Parthians (supposedly related to Hungarians)... The Golden Cross of Merit was given to the lead singer of the rock band Kárpátia, Petrás János. The group is regarded as the house band of the far-right party Jobbik. They also created the march for the now banned paramilitary Hungarian Guard, launched by Jobbik. The band sings in their lyrics of the "immaculate nation." It also calls for expanding the borders of the country by force. 7. Süddeutsche Zeitung, Regierung verleiht Orden an antisemitischen Journalisten, [7]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Nach ungarischen Medienberichten hat der Fernsehmoderator Ferenc Szaniszlo zum Nationalfeiertag am 15. März den Tancsics-Preis erhalten, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte in dem der Fidesz-Partei nahestehenden Sender Echo TV antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet und die Minderheit der Roma als "Menschenaffen" diffamiert. Die staatliche Medienaufsichtsbehörde hatte den Sender deshalb 2011 mit einer Geldstrafe belegt. Mit dem Verdienstorden ausgezeichnet wurde der Archäologe Kornel Bakay, der von Jesus Christus behauptet, er sei kein Jude, sondern ein Prinz aus dem - angeblich mit den Ungarn verwandten - alt-iranischen Volk der Parther gewesen. Außerdem unterstellt er den Juden, im Mittelalter Sklavenhandel organisiert zu haben. Eine andere Auszeichnung - das Goldene Verdienstkreuz - erhielt Janos Petras, der Leadsänger der Rockband "Karpatia". Die Musiker besingen in ihren Texten die "unbefleckte Nation" und ruft zu gewaltsamen Veränderungen der Grenzen Ungarns auf. Karpatia gilt als erklärte Lieblingsband der rechtsextremen Parlamentspartei Jobbik. Sie schuf auch den Marsch für die inzwischen verbotene, von der Jobbik ins Leben gerufenen paramilitärischen Ungarischen Garde... Oppositionelle Kommentatoren werteten die Ehrung rechtsextremer Persönlichkeiten als Geste der Regierung an die Jobbik und an die extreme Rechte." 8. Der Tagesspiegel, Ferenc Szaniszlo: Ungarn ehrt antisemitischen Journalisten (Ferenc Szaniszlo: Hungary honors anti-semitic journalist), [8]: Relevant text from newspaper
"In Ungarn ist der rassistische TV-Moderator Ferenc Szaniszlo am Nationalfeiertag durch die Regierung mit einem Preis geehrt worden. Wie ungarische Medien am Wochenende berichteten, erhielt Szaniszlo am vergangenen Freitag den Tancsics-Preis, die höchste staatliche Ehrung für Journalisten. Szaniszlo hatte im Sender Echo TV, welcher der Regierungspartei Fidesz nahesteht, antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien verbreitet. Sozialminister Zoltan Balog nannte die Vergabe 'bedauerlich', schloss eine Aberkennung aus juristischen Gründen aber aus. " Translation
In Hungary, the racist TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo had been honored by the National Government with a fine. Now Hungarian media reported this weekend that last Friday Szaniszlo received the Tancsics Award, the highest state award for journalists. Szaniszlo had used Echo TV, which is close to the ruling party Fidesz, to spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Social Minister Zoltan Balog called the award "unfortunate... 9. Le Figaro, Hongrie : Viktor Orban met l'extrême droite à l'honneur (Hungary: Orban honors the extreme right), [9]: Relevant text from newspaper
"La petite Hongrie résiste moins que d'autres à ses démons nationalistes. Son premier ministre, Viktor Orban, un conservateur, vient de décerner, à l'occasion de la Fête nationale du 15 mars, plusieurs distinctions à des personnalités on ne peut plus controversées. Ferenc Szaniszlo par exemple, journaliste à la télévision Echo TV. Proche du Fidesz, la formation d'Orban, Szaniszlo, qui a reçu le prix Tancsics, est connu pour ses diatribes antisémites et antiroms. En 2011, il avait été réprimandé par l'Autorité de surveillance des médias pour avoir comparé les Roms à des «singes». En signe de protestation, une dizaine de journalistes qui ont obtenu ce prix l'ont aussitôt rendu. Le chef du gouvernement hongrois a également décoré un archéologue, Kornel Bakay, connu lui aussi pour ses thèses racistes. Bakay s'est fait remarquer en accusant les Juifs d'avoir organisé le commerce d'esclaves au Moyen Âge. Enfin, Janos Petras, célèbre chanteur de rock, a reçu la Croix d'or du Mérite. Petras ne cache pas sa sympathie pour le parti d'extrême droite Jobbik. Il a participé jadis à la marche de la Garde hongroise, une organisation paramilitaire aujourd'hui interdite, et rêve tout haut de reconstruire la Grande Hongrie, celle d'avant la Première Guerre mondiale." Translation
Little Hungary is less able to resist its nationalist démons. Its prime minister, Viktor Orban, a conservative, just gave, on the occasion of the national holiday on 15 March, many distinctions to many more-than-a-little controversial personalities. Ferenc Szaniszlo, for example: journalist at the television station Echo TV. Close to Fidesz, Orban's Party, Szaniszlo, who received the Tancsics prize, is known for his anti-semitic and antiroman diatribes. In 2011, hé was reprimanded by media watchdog authorities for having compared the Roma to monkey... The head of the Hungarian government also decorated an archaeologist, Bakay, known as well for his racist theories... Lastly, Janos Petras, a celebrated rock singer, received the Golden Cross of Merit. Petras doesn't hide his sympathy for extreme-right party Jobbik. He participated in the march of the Hungarian Guard, a paramilitary organization now forbidden, and dreams as high as reconstructing the old Hungary of pre-WWI days. 10. Le Monde, Prime au fascisme en Hongrie (Primed for fascism in Hungary), [10]: Translation
Other personalities decorated on March 15th posed problems. For example Janos Petras: lead singer of rock band Karpatia, who composed the anthem of the Hungarian Guard. This non-military army, nevertheless aggressive, was launched in 2007 by the neo-fascist Jobbik party; its activists march uniformed in Roma neighborhoods to intimidate them. Another distinguished on March 15 was Kornel Bakay. This archaeologist professed strange ideas on the origin of Jesus Christ, who was not Jewish but a Parthian prince (the Parthians being in his ancestors of the Hungarians). His theory had earlier pleased many pseudo-scientists in German Nazi. In 2003, Bakay organized an exhibition in honor of the Arrow Cross fascist movement and Ferenc Szalasi, an ally of Hitler. It was closed at the request of authorities because she was openly promoting the movement, which in 1944 facilitated the deportation of 200,000 Hungarian Jews and Gypsies. 11. la Repubblica, Orban decora tre razzisti antisemiti dall'Ungheria nuova sfida all'Europa (New challenge for Europe: Orban decorates three antisemites and racists in Hungary), [11]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Il primo è quello del premio Tancics, tradizionale e importante premio per i migliori giornalisti, conferito a Ferenc Szanizslò, commentatore alla televisione Echo TV, ritenuto vicinissimo alla Fidesz, cioè al partito di Orbàn, e noto per le tesi apertamente razziste che espone in pubblico... Il secondo caso è quello di Kornel Bakay, che ha ricevuto per decisione del governo l'Ordine al merito. Bakay è un archeologo noto per il suo aperto, radicale antisemitismo. Tra l'altro aveva fatto scandalo a livello mondiale asserendo in pubblico che sarebbero stati gli ebrei a organizzare la tratta degli schiavi dal medioevo all'abolizionismo. Mentre è noto che lo schiavismo fu organizzato dalle potenze di allora e dall'attivissima (e per loro proficua) collaborazione di tribù e potentati arabi in Africa. Il terzo caso riguara Janos Petras, cantante della rock band 'Karpatia'. E'in sostanza un gruppo nazirock, vicinissimo ai neonazisti antisemiti di Jobbik che amano ascoltare la loro musica nelle adunate. Petras ha ricevuto la croce d'oro al merito. Tra i motivi più noti cantati da lui e dal suo gruppo ce ne sono alcuni che inneggiano alla revisione delle frontiere europee con la ricostituzione della 'Grande Ungheria', cioè riprendendosi territori oggi slovacchi, ucraini, serbi e romeni. Il gruppo Karpatia ha anche partecipato anche a marce della Magyar Gàrda (Guardia magiara), il gruppo paramilitare di Jobbik con le uniformi nere e simboli fascistoidi, ufficialmente fuorilegge ma che continua a farsi vedere tranquillamente." Translation
The first award is the Tancics, traditional and important for Hungary's best journalists, given to Ferenc Szanizslò, commentator on television Echo TV, considered close to Orban's party Fidesz and known for openly racist theses expounded in public ... The second case is that of Kornel Bakay, who has received the Order of Merit. Bakay is an archaeologist known for his open, radical anti-Semitism. Among other things he caused a scandal by claiming in public that the Jews to organized the slave trade from the Middle Ages until abolition... The third case concerns Janos Petras, lead singer of the rock band 'Karpatia'. In essence Karpatia is a nazi-rock group and close to the neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, Jobbik party, who enjoy listening to its music in their gatherings. Petras received the golden Cross of Merit... Karpatia the group has also participated marches of the Magyar Garda (Hungarian Guard), Jobbik's paramilitary group with black uniforms and fascist symbols, officially outlawed but still visible in Hungary. 12. L'Independenza, Orban, il “nemico” ungherese creato dall’Unione Europea (Orban, the Hungarian enemy, created by the EU), [12]: Relevant text from newspaper
"E così ha dato il premio Tancsics per il giornalismo a Ferenc Szaniszló, noto per aver paragonato i Rom alle scimmie e per aver detto che “gli ebrei hanno occupato l’Ungheria o comunque la stanno per occupare”, fra le tante altre cose dello stesso tenore. Poi è stato assegnato l’Ordine al Merito a Kornel Bakay, archeologo, noto per le sue tesi antisemite sulla storia, fra cui quella secondo cui gli ebrei avrebbero organizzato loro la tratta degli schiavi, dal Medio Evo sino al secolo scorso. Infine, la Croce d’Oro al Merito è andata a Janos Petras, frontman della band ultranazionalista Karpatia." Translation
And so Hungary gave the Tancsics journalism prize to Ferenc Szaniszló, known for having compared the Roma with monkeys and to have said that 'the Jews have occupied or will soon occupy Hungary', among many other things of the same tenor. Also awarded the Order Merit was Kornel Bakay, an archaeologist, known for his thesis on the history of anti-Semitism, including the thesis that the Jews may have organized the slave trade from the Middle Ages until the last century. Finally, the Gold Cross of Merit went to Janos Petras, frontman of the ultra-nationalist band Karpatia. 13. de Volkskrant, Hongaarse regering kent antisemieten prijzen toe (Hungarian government gives out anti-semitic prizes), [13]: Relevant text from newspaper
"De tv-presentator Ferenc Szaniszlo ontving de Tancsics-prijs, de hoogste onderscheiding van de staat voor journalisten. Szaniszlo verspreidde voor de tv-zender Echo TV antisemitische complottheorieën en noemde de Roma in zijn land 'mensapen'. Ook Janos Petras, de zanger van de rockband Karpatia kreeg een onderscheiding. De zanger roept in zijn teksten op tot gewelddadige wijzigingen van de Hongaarse grenzen." Translation
TV presenter Ferenc Szaniszlo Tancsics received the Prize, the highest state award for journalists. On the television channel Echo TV, Szaniszlo spread antisemitic conspiracy theories and called the Roma in his country 'apes'. Janos Petras, the lead singer of the rock band Karpatia, also received an award. The singer's lyrics call for violent changes to Hungary's borders. 14. Novinky.cz, V Maďarsku vyznamenali antisemitského novináře i nacionalistickou kapelu (Hungary: the distinguished journalist and anti-Semitic band), [14]: Relevant text from newspaper
"Značné pobouření vyvolala jména Maďarů vyznamenaných Táncsicsovou cenou. Je mezi nimi nacionalistická kapela i novinář Ferenc Szaniszló, který je známý svými extrémními a antisemitskými názory. Několik známých novinářů stejné vyznamenání, jaké dostal Szainiszló, na znamení protestu vrátilo... Řád za zásluhy dostal archeolog Kornél Bakay, který je rovněž známý antisemita. Přišel s tezí, že za středověkým obchodem s otroky stáli Židé. Stejný řád převzal i zpěvák a baskytarista nacionalistické rockové skupiny Kárpátia János Petrás. Skupina ve svých textech otevřeně vyzývá k revizi stávajících maďarských hranic a připojení tzv. odtržených území a používá velkouherské symboliky. Účastnila se i pochodů dnes již zakázané Maďarské národní gardy." Translation
Outrage sparked at Hungarians named with prizes including the Tancsics. Among them are a nationalist band and the journalist Ferenc Szaniszló, known for extreme and anti-Semitic views. Several well-known journalists previously awarded the same prize as Szanislo returned their awards in protest. These articles, almost all of them about Szaniszlo and his award, all mention Bakay and Petras. Many of them also remark on the relation between Szaniszlo, Echo TV and Fidesz. So, reliable sources and due weight, based on available coverage, would suggest that this material should be included because it provides information both about Szaniszlo (his relationship to Fidesz) and his award (given alongside awards to Bakay and Petras). - Darouet ( talk) 23:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Are there any last comments about how Bakay and Petras might raise BLP issues other than reliably sourced content, clearly addressed above? - Darouet ( talk) 01:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC) reply
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