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Filed by
Bhaskarbhagawati on
11:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/ Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have discussed the issue extensively with them at:
How do you think we can help? The issue started back in 2012, when original old article Kamrupi was divided into Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors including Aeusoes, "citing lack of sources". Their chief argument was modern languages/dialects cannot have history. Since then i have added numerous sources but they dismisses and persistently deletes them, even though wp:rsn said they are reliable to use on the subject. I need wp:drn advice on the dispute. Summary of dispute by ChaipauThe dispute is not about whether Kamrupi dialect is a "modern speech which lacks history", but whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are synonymous and equivalent. That they are different was first pointed out by Kwamikagami around June/July 2012 and he tried to split the article in two 501823544. There was a brief tussle between Bhaskarbhagawati and Kwamikagami over moves, with Bhaskarbhagawati trying to move it to Kamrupi Language, which was eventually deleted. I agreed with Kwamikagami, and backed it up with two references (Sharma 1978 and Goswami 1970). Both these works are seminal and comprehensive enough and they name the two articles as they stand today. Bhaskarbhagawati at first tried to move the article, and then attempted a merge that failed. And since then his attempt has been to either insert "Kamrupi language" through citations in the lede or templates above it; or dig up references whose wordings seemingly implied that the modern dialect and the pre-1250 language are the same. Bhaskarbhagawati continues his attempt to merge the two, as he admitted here 890529414. The phrasing "modern speech which lacks history" is very recent, just a few days old. Even if this was the issue, then all the modern dialects in the dialectal continuum included in the Kamatapuri lects and the Assamese language too deserve their share of history. Chaipau ( talk) 01:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Aeusoes1Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I was brought to the issue in 2012 by a request for a third opinion regarding whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are referentially equivalent. I teased out the mutual claims that Bhaskarbhagawati and Chaipau made, and realized that the former editor had relied on cherry picked, misunderstood, or unauthoritative quotes to claim that the two were the same. Reliable sourcing instead indicates that the 12th century Prakrit was likely a precursor language to what amounts to a modern-day dialect continuum. As is typical for dialect continua, a few language divisions have been made that are linguistically arbitrary, but still recognized as valid for sociohistorical reasons. In the same way that we don't consider Latin and Italian to be the same language, we wouldn't consider the Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit to be the same, even though they are clearly related, because of the political, cultural, and linguistic changes that have happened since the 12th century. I explained this to Bhaskarbhagawati, but he disagrees with this assessment. He has so far not provided any convincing evidence that we should change the presentation in the article to reflect his belief that the two are referentially equivalent. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC) Talk:Kamrupi Prakrit, Talk:Kamrupi dialect discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
To support the statement that Kamrupi language do have history, i have provided references with full quotes from eminent local linguist, which are at [1] and [2]. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:36, 5 April 2019 (UTC) Sources by me (Bhaskarbhagawati)
First statement by moderatorSince this case is being referred to this noticeboard from WP:ANI, it is particularly important that the editors follow the rules, because otherwise this case will go back to WP:ANI, possibly with my recommendations for a block or a lock. Please follow the rules at my statement of the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article. I am not familiar with the details, but I understand that the issue has to do with how old the language is; I expect the editors to be able to inform me of all of the details, just as the article should inform readers of everything that is written by reliable sources. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers to my questions. Every editor is expected to reply to my questions within 48 hours. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they believe the issues are, and what the article should say? Be concise, because the article should be concise. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC) First statements by editorsThank you Robert McClenon, the precise dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/ Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature. Until 2012, original article was saying later, which was subsequently divided into Kamrupi dialect and Kamrupi Prakrit by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors citing lack of sources. Since then, relevant sources from eminent local linguists with full quotes are added to support its original position. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 07:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Kamrupi dialect currently states that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese, citing Goswami's (1970) A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. I think this is correct. Kamarupi Prakrit, Assamese language#History, and KRNB lects identify the time that Assamese (which includes dialects like Kamrupi) began differentiating itself from its ancestral language and surrounding varieties as around 1250. We thus already reflect that Kamrupi has a history by indicating the mother language that Kamrupi comes from, and we also already identify the body of literature that reflects this history. What we don't (and shouldn't) do is refer to Kamarupi Prakrit as merely an earlier form of Kamrupi, since there are a number of varieties also descended from Kamarupi Prakrit. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 02:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC) Second Statement by ModeratorI am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. Does anyone claim that the older language and the modern language are the same, or is there agreement that there has been linguistic evolution? If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours. Second Statements by EditorsTo be precise, Kamrupi dialect is a modern dialect of the Assamese language. It is established that Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved. It has evolved, after 1250, on the one hand into a group of lects (called Kamatapuri lects) that cluster together and on the other hand into Assamese language, which is also a cluster of lects or dialects. Thus, Kamarupi Prakrit → KRNB (Kamatapuri, Rangpuri, etc lects) + Assamese (Kamrupi, Goalparia, etc. dialects). Chaipau ( talk) 01:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Third statement by moderatorI am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours in less than 300 words. Be clear, concise, and civil. If the issue is how to accommodate different statements that are not inconsistent, this can be worked out. Robert McClenon ( talk) 08:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC) Third statements by editorsI am rephrasing the statements of dispute for better clarity. The disputes are:
The relevant sources for any academic consensus, i.e. Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, an work agreed on by both the parties and other relevant sources are included in "Second Statements by Editors" for reference of moderator. The other party has yet to produce sources which says opposite of "Kamrupi dialect is first Indo-Aryan language of Assam which is also the ancestral language of modern Assamese language", so there appears no contradiction between sources as of now. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderatorsIt appears that User:Richard Keatinge was not a previous party to this discussion and is trying to help resolve this. Unless he objects, I will add his name to the list of volunteers and will let the discussion continue under his moderation. I may chime in as a participant. I thank User:Richard Keatinge for assisting. Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC) Fourth statements by editorsRobert McClenon neutrality issue may be arise if Richard Keatinge made moderator of the current thread. He was an oppposite party in an recent dispute involving me (see: Talk:Assamese_people, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_259#Dravidian_ethno-linguistic_group_in_ancient_Assam,_India and others), and is next in line as party, as said dispute supposed to brought in here. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Fifth statement by moderatorOkay. I will continue as moderator, and have added User:Richard Keatinge as a party. We are in agreement that Kamrumpi Prakrit is a historic predecessor of modern Assamese, of which Kamrupi dialect is a form. What are the points of difference, then? Will each editor please state concisely what they see as the points of difference? Comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC) Fifth statements by editorsThanks to Robert McClenon and Bhaskarbhagawati; indeed it's much better if I don't try to moderate this discussion. As for the differences between ancient Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern Kamrupi dialect, I will leave any detailed description to the relevant articles and to the reliable sources, accurately represented by Chaipau and aeusoes1. It might indeed be helpful to have a comparison, possibly in the Kamarupi Prakrit article, between what is known of Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern dialects. But I am not equipped to provide anything of the sort. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Sixth statement by moderatorI think that we are in agreement on the major point. If there is disagreement, please so state. If so, the minor points will be worked out on the article talk page. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC) Sixth statements by editorsThere is disagreement regarding sources, reliable sources and viewpoints are excluded from the pages, other parties claim lacks sources. The major disagreements are:
Robert McClenon consider helping me with the above points, as we exhausted dispute resolution processess, i have no intention to carry the issue further, will accept once for all the recommendations provided here. A warm thank you to you. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 05:44, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Seventh statement by moderatorBhaskarbhagawati asks three questions. The answer to the first (all major viewpoints) is yes. Is there a viewpoint that is being excluded? The answer to the second (should exceptional claims be supported by sources) is that claims (whether or not exceptional) should be supported by sources. Are there unsourced claims? The third question has to do with whether to use common names. Is there an issue about the use of a less common name? Is there agreement that there are no published works on the older form of the language (which itself does not survive as a written langauge)? Chaipau makes a general statement, and so I will pose the above questions to both editors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:14, 24 April 2019 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors@ Robert McClenon: there is no dispute on the three matters of principle: (1) Should we represent the majority view (yes); (2) Should we support exceptional claims by sources (yes); and whether we should use the common name (yes). All these principles are being followed in the articles. What is at dispute are Bhaskarbhagawati's interpretations of these principles. Here are some examples:
What is at dispute here is the use of these principles to disruptively insert language and references in the lead of these articles to somehow indicate that these two articles are equivalent. I call it disruptive because since 2012 there is WP:CONSENSUS (not unanimity) that they are not equivalent, and which is exactly what we discovered in this discussion as well. Chaipau ( talk) 11:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Eighth statement by moderatorOkay. Let's try a different approach. The current articles will serve as the baseline. Will each editor please list all of the points where they think either of the articles should be changed? We will then see if we can work out the issues or if we need to use RFC, but it appears that we need to use RFC. Be concise, but list all of the points whee you believe there are content issues. Robert McClenon ( talk) 00:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Eighth statements by editors@ Robert McClenon: before I make the list, I would like to ask two questions.
Thanks! Chaipau ( talk) 10:07, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Ninth statement by moderator1. The first issue is the name of the article on the old language. Since there does not seem to be agreement, we will use a Move Request, which works like an RFC. This will take place while other discussion continues. Please list all proposed names. 2. We are in agreement that the two articles are not equivalent. One is about the older language and the other is about the modern dialect. Please identify any sections that imply an equivalence and we will fix them. 3. Please list all specific proposed changes. Be specific. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC) Ninth statements by editorsRobert McClenon, thank you for creating subpage for the discussion of the Kamrupi language/dialect issues. I am listing my opinion below : 1.The most common names as per current sources [7] [8] are Old Kamarupi dialect (3), Kamrupi language (3), Kamrupi Apabhramsa (3), Kamrupi Prakrit (2), Kamarupi Prakrit (1), proto-Kamrupa (1). 2. For point number two i rather ask a question about how we can accommodate linguists who opines old language is older form of modern Kamrupi (Upendranath Goswami, Golokchandra Goswami, Kaliram Medhi, Sukumar Sen, Madhumita Sengupta and others). 3. The specific proposed changes in my view are:
Thus, to summarise i suggest titling of article according to common name, inclusion of all viewpoints on the subject and restriction in their deletion, exclusion of unsourced claims and more weightage to experts. Since the beginning of our discussion there are serious misrepresentations, which i believe need to be addressed for those newer to the subject. Some of them are:
Tenth statement by moderatorI will be starting a Request for Comments on the primary title of this article. I will repeat my request to identify any proposed specific changes to the article. What part of "be specific" wasn't specific enough? "Inclusion of all viewpoints" is not specific, but a restatement of a principle. If any specific viewpoint is omitted and should be added, specify it. "Inclusion of all works and sources" is not specific. What works and sources? Do you want me to close this discussion with a finding that there is a lot of vague complaining? Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC) Tenth statements by editorsRobert McClenon sorry, actually i restated the principle of "inclusion of all viewpoints" because of other editors statement that viewpoints not in line of consensus should be excluded, although i supposed to be more specific. The most important viewpoints excluded are:
Changes to Kamrupi dialect
Chaipau ( talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Changes to Kamarupi Prakrit
Chaipau ( talk) 17:28, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Eleventh statement by moderatorHere is a summary of the contested points. User: Bhaskarbhagawati has requested that Goswami, Medhi, and Sengupta be included. User:Chaipau has requested five changes to Kamrupi dialect, and six changes to the articles on the old language. We are in agreement that the first paragraph of each article is satisfactory. Do the other editors agree to the specified changes? Robert McClenon ( talk) 13:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editorsThe first paragraphs (regional dialects, unattested etc.) are unsourced or sources not saying what it claimed, sources saying "first Indo-Aryan language of Assam". The contents of both the article are written reproducing what reliable sources saying, removing them as suggested by Chaipau lead to exclusion of scholarly viewpoints, unsourced content can be removed. Inclusion of all reliable sources will definitely depict Kamrupi dialect and Kamrupi language are indeed same. So to summarise, in my opinion no sourced content should removed, both article should reproduce exactly what reliable source are saying etc. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 17:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Twelfth statement by moderatorOkay. Let's try to work through this, one paragraph at a time, for the two articles. We will start with the lede paragraph of each article. Will each editor please provide their proposed text for the first paragraph of each article? Then we will see whether we can work out differences in the first paragraphs by discussion or whether we have to take each of them to RFC. Proposed changes to other paragraphs are permitted but not required at this point. Non-specific complaints, such as that viewpoints are being excluded or that the article is biased, are forbidden, and are subject to zero tolerance. If an editor makes any non-specific complaints that I cannot deal with explicitly, I will go back to WP:ANI with a recommendation that that editor be topic-banned from Indian languages. Okay. Provide your drafts for the first paragraph of each article. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Twelfth statements by editorsLede of old language Kamrupi language was first Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Bengal, Western Assam and parts of central Assam. It was sole literary language of the region till nineteenth century, subsequently lost its prestige and now become a dialect, spoken in modern Kamrup. [1] [2] The eastern Magadhi Prakrit gave rise to four languages, Radhi, Varendari, Kamrupi and Vanga. [3] This Kamrupi language can be dated at least to first millennium, when deluge of literary activity occurred in North Bengal and Western Assam [4], and the ancestor of the North Bengal dialects (Kamta, Rajbanshi and Northern Deshi Bangla) began to develop. [5] [6] This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam. [7] This apabhramsa gave rise to various modern eastern Indo-European languages like Assamese language [8] [9], and significantly different from it in terms of phonology, morphology and vocables. [10] [11]
References
Kamrupi dialect (formerly Kamrupi language) [1] was first Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Bengal, Western Assam and parts of central Assam, is also a modern dialect of Assamese language, that formerly enjoyed prestige status. [2] [3] [4] Kamrupi is heterogeneous with three subdialects— West (Barpeta), Central (Nalbari) and South Kamrupi (Palashbari). [5] In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry. This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry. [6] In more recent times, the South Kamrupi dialect has been used in the works of author Indira Goswami. Poet and nationalist Ambikagiri Raichoudhury also used Kamrupi in his works to great extent. [7] In 2018, the Kamrupi film Village Rockstars became the first from the region to be selected for India's official entry to the 91st Academy Awards. [8] भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 08:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC) First paragraph of Kamarupi Prakrit
First paragraph of Kamrupi dialect
I am not making any pointed refutation of Bhaskarbhagawati's proposed changes at this time. Chaipau ( talk) 19:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
References
Thirteenth RoundTwo RFCs are now running on the lede paragraphs to the two articles. They will run for 30 days, and will resolve the matter of the lede paragraphs. User:Chaipau has proposed a long list of changes to the two articles. Please read them over and indicate which you accept, which you want to compromise, and which you do not accept. Proposed Changes to Kamrupi dialect
Chaipau ( talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Proposed Changes to Kamarupi Prakrit
Thirteenth Statements by EditorsI am addressing all the points one by one. The proposed changes and my views on it are:
In modern language, the proposed change will remove the viewpoint of Kaliram Medhi( Medhi, Kaliram (1988). Assamese grammar and origin of the Assamese language, p.84).
For modern language, 'Similarities with Eastern Assamese' section cannot changed to 'Differences with Eastern Assamese/Standard Assamese language' because as per our current sources Kamrupi language/dialect is significantly different from standard Assamese language based on eastern Assamese dialect in terms of phonology, morphology and vocables. Therefore, we need to see if there any similarities rather differences which is obvious.
For modern language, 'region' section required because the language was originally spoken in modern Kamrup, then North Bengal, Western Assam and central Assam, afterwards in North Bengal, entire Brahmaputra valley, parts of Bangladesh and Bhutan, addition of parts of Bihar and so on. Eventually now in modern Kamrup. Thus uncertainty of region requires region section.
For modern langauge, 'Scholarly views' section is about significant linguists viewpoints on the subject, removing them is removing important viewpoints, but there are scope of changes in its presentation.
For modern language, the picture of Charyapada included as per quote of Upendranath Goswami, it should not be removed. (Goswami Upendranath (1970), A study on Kamrupi: a dialect of Assamese, Dept. of Historical Antiquarian Studies, p.4.) The first and second paragraph is sourced to last citation, should be kept. The name of medieval writers need to be included either in history or literature section, definitely not in region section. The fourth paragraph about medieval writer 'Sankaradeva' cannot be removed because it will again remove views of Kaliram Medhi.
Thus to summarise, the proposed removal of content of the both articles lead to exclusion of important viewpoints. Although, i am open to inclusion of other sources which contradicts them. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 10:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC) In defense of the proposed changesI shall be providing point-to-point defense of the edit suggestions I have made. I shall be done within a day...and when I am done, I shall indicate it. Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti: The reference is not the official position of the organization, but an article in the journal, authored by Parikshit Hazarika (1968). It makes the same point as that made by M M Sharma (1978), that there exists irregularities in the Sanskrit text of Kamarupa inscriptions, but his central assertion—that this indicates an Kamarupa Apabhramsha parallel to Magadha Apabhramsha—is no longer accepted. Subsequent and recent authors have continued to accept that a dialect of the Magadhi Apabhramsha is the origin of the KRNB lects and the Assamese language. Therefore, on the basis of WP:RS_AGE, WP:RSCONTEXT, since Kamarupa Prakrit is a later coinage and more accurate, it should be retained. Chaipau ( talk) 11:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Round Fourteen: ModeratorI made a mistake somehow on the RFC on the old language, and the two versions were identical. That has been closed. I think that I have this time entered Version A and Version B correctly. I will be reviewing previous postings shortly and will provide an update. Until then, conduct all discussion in the Threaded Discussion sections. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:04, 15 May 2019 (UTC) Round Fifteen: Statement by ModeratorIt appears that User:Chaipau has five or six proposed changes to each of the two articles, and that User:Bhaskarbhagawati is satisfied with the articles. Is that correct? Each user may identify one change to each article that they consider to have the highest priority. We will then start an RFC on each of those changes. If you are satisfied with the current content, you don't need to propose a change. Please list your proposed change in the section below. Do not reply to the other editor's changes. That discussion can be done in a No vote on the RFC or in the Threaded Discussion. Trying to discuss all of the changes at once gets nowhere. So each editor may propose one change to each article, in the space below. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:00, 15 May 2019 (UTC) Fifteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon, indeed i disagree with proposed deletion of content secured by sources suggested by Chaipau, as said in my last statement, and i don't want to propose any newer changes except which are already under RFC. Also the publications of Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti are vetted. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 06:38, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Sixteenth Statement by ModeratorI had thought that maybe we could make some progress toward resolving this dispute, but it appears that the issue is being raised again of whether to combine the two articles. Some of us thought that there was agreement that we would have two articles, one on the older language and one on the modern language or dialect. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - I will give you one last choice. Do you want to discuss how to improve the two articles, or do you want to have a merge discussion to combine the two articles? If you choose to work to improve the two articles, you will not be allowed to complain about the decision seven years ago to split them, and if you do complain, I will go to Arbitration Enforcement and request that you be topic-banned from Indian languages for one year. If you choose to have a merge discussion, we will have a merge discussion, and if it keeps the two articles, you will be subject to being topic-banned from them. Now - Choose. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - You have 24 hours to decide which course we will take. If you do not decide within 24 hours, I will decide for you, and I will not permit you to go back. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Both of you have been notified again of ArbCom discretionary sanctions. I have been patient, maybe too patient. I don't plan to be patient any longer, either with vague complaints about censorship, vague complaints that all viewpoints should be represented (which we already agree one), other vague complaints, or side complaining about the history of the articles. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) User:Chaipau - Within 48 hours, please identify one change to each article that has the highest priority. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Sixteenth Statements by EditorsI would like to suggest the top items from Round Thirteen.
Chaipau ( talk) 03:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Seventeenth Statement by ModeratorI would like to get this dispute resolution wrapped up. I have started two RFCs, one on each subject. I would like to know whether the participants are willing to resume discussion on the article talk pages without moderation. Unless there is an objection, in 48 hours I will suspend moderation and allow discussion to resume while this case is on hold. We will see whether regular discussion is working. If it is working, good. If it doesn't work, I may resume moderated discussion, but will more likely either ask User:Abecedare to intervene or will file a request at Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:50, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Seventeenth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: I would request a moderated discussion if it is possible. Otherwise the discussions over the last seven years have been circular and repetitive. This has happened for every singly minor point. I fear any un-moderated discussion will give us nothing. I believe that the 44 days of moderated discussion has yielded more resolution than the last seven years. Just my two cents. Chaipau ( talk) 16:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Eighteenth Statement by ModeratorOkay. If it is requested that moderated discussion continue, I will continue moderated discussion. I will be slowing down the pace of moderated discussion. I will be starting up to four more RFCs in about one week. Each editor may request one more RFC on each article. (If any additional editors want to be added as parties and request RFCs, I will add them, which might result in more than four RFCs.) My objective is to keep the number of RFCs open at a given time to a manageable number. A few reminders are in order. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution. Casting aspersions on the motives or good faith of editors is forbidden. Personal attacks are forbidden. When I say that casting aspersions and personal attacks are forbidden, there will be no warnings. If they happen, I will request immediate sanctions. I will be drawing up a revised set of rules for this moderation in the next few days. Do not edit the articles. You may and should discuss on the article talk pages. To that extent, the ANI restriction is modified. Discussion on the article talk pages must follow talk page guidelines and may not involve aspersions or personal attacks. Within five days, each editor should identify one more RFC. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Eighteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon, thank you. Your conditions are nothing unusual, and in normal times that is what it should be. I would rather see this take six month to resolve than continue the situation for another seven years. Chaipau ( talk) 19:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Nineteenth Statement by ModeratorUser:Richard Keatinge - You already are a party to this case. What matter do you in particular want resolved? Each editor may submit one more RFC request now. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - I had also expected that this would be resolved by now. Other editors advise me that this controversy has been going on for seven years. If you don't want this discussion to continue for a few more months, I think that other editors would be willing to have you agree to a topic-ban. If you want this discussion put on hold, please explain why it needs to be put on hold. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:28, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Be sure to !vote in favor of any RFCs that you have requested. Since I am the originator, and I am neutral, your request will not be counted as support. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Nineteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon good evening, i am currently very busy in some important things because of which i maybe not able to fully focus in our discussion. If you disagree, i will try to comeback here once a day. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Twentieth Statement by ModeratorI never said that participants should not vote in the RFCs. I did say, in response to a suggestion that participants not vote in the RFCs, that participants should vote in the RFCs. Each editor may propose one more RFC to each article. I determine what the rules are. I don't want any parties trying to tweak the rules to their advantage. I have no intention of putting this on hold unless there is agreement by all of the participants that it should be put on hold. If the participants want to conclude the moderated discussion, they may do so, in which case they will agree to be bound by everything that has been decided, or that will be decided by any ongoing RFCs, RMs, et cetera. I am not putting this on hold unless there is a very good reason. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:54, 30 May 2019 (UTC) Twentieth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: Thanks for the clarification—I just wanted to know what are rules are. I do not think we should put this on hold. We have had this issue in the past and the process(es) then stalled. I don't want that to happen here and look forward to a resolution. Chaipau ( talk) 01:54, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-First Statement by ModeratorUser:Bhaskarbhagawati - What exactly are you asking be changed? Exactly what change to one of the articles are you asking to have rolled back? Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) User:Richard Keatinge, User:Chaipau - Are either you or anyone else requesting that a change to one of the articles be rolled back? Exactly what is being requested? Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) It has already been established that all academic viewpoints should be included. Is there a question about the inclusion of an academic viewpoint? Please be specific. Vague complaints and vague comments are not useful. Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Please reply here within 24 hours. If there is a question about changes to the article or about the inclusion or exclusion of viewpoints, we need to identify it and resolve it. Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-First Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: I am not requesting any change. The issue, on a different subject, went through an RfC recently and it was settled ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAssamese_people&type=revision&diff=893523107&oldid=891769625). But since it ended not to user:Bhaskarbhagawati's liking, he is trying to re-litigate. I would request you not to include that issue in this process. I apologize for bringing it here. Chaipau ( talk) 11:51, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: The discussion that user:Bhaskarbhagawati started a couple of days ago has been closed as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAssamese_people&type=revision&diff=900285200&oldid=900207257 FYI, user:Richard Keatinge. Chaipau ( talk) 17:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Second Statement by ModeratorAre the editors, both of the principal editors, requesting that this DRN be closed, or that it continue? If closed, is there agreement to accept the results of the RFCs? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:41, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-Second Statements by editorsAs said earlier i have no further request for change, and i will accept the RFCs, thank you. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Please consider completing this DRN process. I don't think this dispute can continue any further. We require a resolution, so we can improve these articles, beyond the listed change requests. Chaipau ( talk) 15:54, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Good. So, with my apologies to the moderator for this digression, let us proceed to resolve this matter.
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
20:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Third Statement by ModeratorIt appears that the parties are saying that they are ready to conclude this moderated discussion. If anyone has any specific further changes, please identify them within 48 hours. If no further changes are requested within 48 hours, I will close this discussion, with a finding that consensus has been achieved, and that editing against consensus will be disruptive. Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:56, 9 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-Third Statements by EditorsIt is my impression, and hope, that we have reached a consensus on the major points. I hope that it will be helpful to list them here:
(And, I trust, we positively agree that the above system of nomenclature in no way denies the continuities between these two groups of lects, and other lects. Nor does it offer any disrespect to the literary achievements expressed in mediaeval and modern times, in related Kamrupi lects.)
Keep first paragraph as it is. No change. Second paragraph: "In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry." → "In late medieval times Kamrupi forms are found in prose, such as those compiled in the Kamrupar Buranji." "This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry.[6]" → "The use of Kamrupi dialect in modern times has plummeted due to the prevalence of the standard variety though in recent times there has been a trend to use this in major media. Keep the section Kamrupi_dialect#Features as it is, except: Rename the section Kamrupi_dialect#Similarities_with_Eastern_Assamese to Difference with Eastern Assamese" because the section discusses the differences and not the similarities. Add section on similarities later when needed. Change the name of the section Kamrupi_dialect#Definition_of_the_region to "Kamrup region". Remove all the text from this section, since it is already covered in Kamrup region. In its stead, we should have a short paragraph to be extended later. This is a sample paragraph: "The group of Kamrupi dialects is spoken in the Kamrup region, which has had a consistent administrative delineation since the 17th century, first under the Mughals, then under the Ahoms and later under the British and then Indian district of Undivided Kamrup. There are primarily three major dialects spoken in this region: Barpetia dialect in the west; Nalbaria dialect in the east and Palasbaria dialect in the south. These dialects form a dialect continuum within themselves and with the adjoining dialects of Goalparia dialect to the west and the Pati-Darrangia dialect to its east." The section Kamrupi_dialect#Scholarly_views is largely a POV fork and should be deleted. In the section Kamrupi_dialect#Literature: Remove the picture of Charyapada, since it is closest to Kamarupi Prakrit; and the similarity is claimed by many languages. Remove the first and the second paragraphs Transfer the name of medieval writers from Kamrup region to the previous section (Kamrup region), after verifying the writers are indeed from Kamrup region. Remove fourth paragraph — Sankardev was not from Kamrup and he did not use Kamrupi dialect in his writings — he used old literary Assamese.
Keep the first paragraph as it is. No change. In the second paragraph, remove "This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam.[7]". Remove "Linguists claim this apabhramsa gave rise to various eastern Indo-European languages like modern Assamese and felt its presence in the form of Kamrupi and Kamatapuri lects.[9][10]", because this is a repeat of "Though not substantially proven, the existence of the language that predated the Kamatapuri lects and Assamese is widely believed.[5]" with a confusing set of citations. In section "Etymology of names" remove "Sukumar Sen and others calls it as old Kamrupi dialect;[12][13][14] the speech used in old Kamrup[12]" This sentence is trying to equate Kamrupi dialect with Kamarupi Prakrit; it attributes it to Sukumar Sen, whereas the author is Upendranath Goswami etc. Remove the picture of Nidhanpur plates, because it makes no sense to just display the plates without pointing out the "prakritism"; OTOH, if the prakritisms are available, then they should be presented in the caption. Add the following caption in the Charyapada picture "Charyapada, written between the 8th and 12th century, contains evidence of Bengali language, Assamese language, Oriya language and Maithili language; and it most likely contains the most direct evidence of Kamarupi Prakrit." If this caption is not acceptable, then we should drop the picture entirely. Remove the two last sections: Kamarupi_Prakrit#Geographical_vicinity is a POV fork, that attempts to equate Kamrupi dialect with Kamarupi prakrit, and the paragraph is very convoluted. Kamarupi_Prakrit#Works is also another POV fork that attempts the same thing. The aphorisms of Dak are found in east Indo-Aryan languages, adapted for modern usage. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:43, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
References
Twenty-Fourth Statement by ModeratorThere is back-and-forth discussion above. I had said that back-and-forth discussion is not permitted.
User:Bhaskarbhagawati has a complaint that proposed RFCs are in disagrement with WP:V and WP:NOR. Do they have a different suggestion? I can close this discussion or continue it. Generalized complaints are not useful. Are we ready to close this discussion, or is there a further matter to address? Robert McClenon ( talk) 20:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Fourth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: the back and forth is regrettable. It should not happen again.
Chaipau ( talk) 10:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Fifth Statement by ModeratorUser:Bhaskarbhagawati - I have said in the past that vague statements such as "All academic viewpoints on the subject need to be included" (which is already a matter of Wikipedia policies) and "Include contradicting academic views" are not helpful. Please clarify exactly what if any change you want made. Does each editor have any more comments? Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:43, 14 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-fifth Statements by EditorsNone from me. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:09, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
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![]() | Closed as conduct dispute. After one editor has said that a statement by another editor is a "complete lie", it is no longer the sort of content dispute that can be resolved in a civil manner. Take complaints about lying to WP:ANI. Any remaining content disputes can be dealt with here later. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
PluniaZ on
04:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview Is the deleted sentence in this diff supported by the source that is given? The given source says nothing to the effect that supporters of anyone countered anyone or anything, does not affirm whether any sanctions were official, and says nothing about sanctions being loosely enforced. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have repeatedly explained on the article talk page that the deleted sentence is not supported by the given source, but Display name 99 ( talk) refuses to budge. How do you think we can help? Can a volunteer please take a quick look at the source and explain to Display name 99 ( talk) that it does not support the disputed sentence? Thank you. Summary of dispute by Display name 99Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The Catholic Herald article states that it is possible to believe that some sort of restrictions were imposed on McCarrick that were not heavily enforced. It concludes with a strong suggestion that Vigano is telling the truth. I'd be fine with replacing the words "Vigano's defenders" if that's causing a problem, but the statement that some have suggested that there were restrictions that McCarrick ignored and that Benedict XVI didn't enforce is clearly supported by the source. Here's another article from LifeSiteNews, a Traditional Catholic website, which vigorously defends Vigano and advances a similar theory. LifeSiteNews is not a trusworthy source for factual information, especially if it happens to be controversial, but it is useful to understand what supporters of Vigano are saying. This article is fine to use in my opinion because it's explanation of the sanctions not being strictly enforced is in line with the Catholic Herald article. I strongly believe that this view should be represented in order to comply with WP:NPOV. Display name 99 ( talk) 17:16, 14 June 2019 (UTC) Talk:Theodore Edgar_McCarrick#Superfluous_material_in_Vigano_section discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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![]() | Closed as conduct dispute. An editor has labeled a statement by another editor about this article, in the other related thread, as a "complete lie". Allegations of lying can be resolved at WP:ANI. After the conduct dispute is resolved, there may or may not still be a content dispute. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by
Display name 99 on
18:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview There were two paragraphs in the article that PluniaZ wanted removed but which I wanted to remain. We unsuccessfully tried to reach an agreement on the talk page before PluniaZ launched an RfC and eventually reached one while the RfC was still open. The problem was that neither PluniaZ nor myself shut the RfC down afterwards. An editor later weighed in and agreed that the content should be removed. However, the content that they stated should be removed was the content that existed prior to our compromise. PluniaZ used that as an excuse to go back on our agreement and remove the content that was agreed to during the compromise, which was modified to assuage their objections. An administrator added the compromise version to the article while it was under protection on our mutual request. To me, this is extremely questionable both because the editor who voted in the RfC based their response on the original version before the compromise and because the RfC was still technically open. Here is the diff of the removal. I closed the RfC just before making this request. Have you tried to resolve this previously? The issue was discussed extensively on the talk page. I requested the intervention of the only administrator active at the article, but she doesn't seem to want to get involved. How do you think we can help? I'm looking to see if someone can make a judgment as to the validity of the "consensus" for removal that PluniaZ claimed existed for removal while also possibly offering an opinion on whether or not the content in question is appropriate for the article and supported by the sources. Summary of dispute by PluniaZBoth Display name 99 and I continued to make edits to the paragraphs under dispute while the RfC was up. Neither of us agreed to a final version of the paragraphs, or whether to include them at all. After 9 days had gone by, we received only one response to the RfC, who agreed with my proposal to remove both paragraphs. Nevertheless, Display name 99 continued to make his own edits to the paragraphs. Given that it did not appear that anyone else was going to respond to the RfC, I removed both paragraphs in the belief that this was the consensus that had been reached on the Talk Page. I am not sure why Display name 99 has closed the RfC if he believes consensus has not been reached. -- PluniaZ ( talk) 14:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC) Talk:Theodore Edgar McCarrick#RfC: Superfluous material in a biography of a living person that is not supported by the sources provided discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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![]() | Closed. Being taken care of with a Requested Merge. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
73.32.38.72 on
21:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Tal's Hill is a former feature of Minute Maid Park that was removed in 2016. Tal's Hill had its own article until 28 February 2007, when it was merged into the Minute Maid Park article. The C of E recreated the article on 3 March 2017. I proposed merging on 10 October 2018. Oldsanfelipe supported the merger as long as all the information from the standalone article was kept in the Minute Maid Park article. WhisperToMe recommended merging all the Tal's Hill information into the Minute Maid Park article and then waiting to see if more information were added which would necessitate spinning it back out, and that is a clear support for merging from WhisperToMe as well. GenQuest completed the merger on 25 March 2019, indicating support for the merge from GenQuest as well. That's four people in favor of merger (including myself), only one person opposed. The C of E reverted GenQuest's merger, claiming "no consensus for a move." I had not seen GenQuest's attempted merger when I merged the articles yesterday, and The C of E reverted my merger 8 minutes later, claiming because three of the comments in the discussion were from me that was not consensus, and claimed the discussion was WP:STALE and if I wanted to merge, I would have to make a proper proposal (which I had already done in October). The WP:STALE link The C of E provided relates to old unfinished draft articles on User Pages, it has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with setting some kind of expiration date for merger proposals. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I made a proper merger proposal, and even though there was already 3 to 1 consensus in favor of merging, I waited nearly 8 months to complete the merger to see if anyone other than The C of E would oppose the merger (no one did). Since The C of E's behavior concerning this article is starting to appear tendentious and OWNy, I think it is necessary and appropriate to now escalate to this board. How do you think we can help? First, by weighing in on The C of E's argument that the October 2018 merger proposal and resulting 3 to 1 consensus for merging is stale, and confirming that it has not passed some "expiration date". Second, by weighing in on whether there is indeed consensus for a merger, and/or providing a larger body of consensus either for or against a merger. Summary of dispute by The C of EPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
First off, I'll correct the IP's claim that I created the article in 2007]. This is false, I did not create it then, it was created by me in 2017. There was no 3-1 consensus. You had 1 for (by the IP), 1 against (from me), one who gave an "either-way" response and one who suggested a possible alternative but not definitively specifying what their opinion was. Furthermore, he mis-characterizes me as relying on "I didn't know" when I clearly stated that WP:CCC and that it would be WP:UNDUE if merged and only said I wasn't aware of any prior decision as a throwaway line. As for STALE, the last comment made in the discussion was in October which to me indicates the debate has fizzled out and there is no agreement for changes. Then suddenly the IP declares they have consensus and made moves when no such consensus exists despite the fact when the debate had been dead for 8 months prior. If they want a broader consensus properly, then they should have relisted rather than make the move they did here. The C of E God Save the Queen! ( talk) 22:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by WhisperToMePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by GenQuestThe proposed merger sat in the que for about seven months or so, not unusual for the merger noticeboard, as there is often long que-lines. I edit merge requests as I can, and am generally neutral in the process, although I may have an opinion about the request(s). The consensus when I viewed the discussion, imo, was to merge, and I proceeded to do so. There is no time limit on Wikipedia, and I certainly did not consider the discussion stale, just finished and waiting to happen. Since no one else in that months long time-frame of that request sitting in the que considered the proposal a bad thing, it seemed proper to proceed with the request, adhering to one participants' condition that no referenced content be lost. That is when I proceeded to enact the merge, and closed the PM noticeboard request out. (I, however, did not close the discussion.) The merger was reversed shortly afterward, which sometimes happens. I leave it to the other participants of the original discussion, and the board here, to indicate what the future course should be. I, for one, believe it to be proper that the merge occur. Regards, GenQuest "Talk to Me" 19:33, 10 June 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by OldsanfelipePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Minute Maid_Park#Merger_proposal discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
(Volunteer Note - Although the IP is not required to register an account, the opinions of unregistered editors is typically discounted in RFCs and Requested Moves. The unregistered editor is strongly advised to register an account if they want their opinion to be taken into account. If not, not. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
References
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![]() | Closed as a binary question. One of the editors agrees that this is a yes-no question, and so there is no value to moderated discussion. The parties are advised to resolve this by a Request for Comments. A Request for Comments should be neutrally worded, and will be binding. Report edit-warring at the edit-warring noticeboard. Report disruption at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:40, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
Cinadon36 on
07:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Discussion on adding info about the number of fatalities caused by EOKA's actions. I am advocating for including the numbers of fatalities by EOKA as presented by Heinz A. Richter. Other users claim that it is POV and shouldn't be included in the article. My response to that is it is not POV, it is just facts and numbers. Moreover, if it were POV, we could attribute. Another objection is that it is hard to clarify who died because of EOKA actions or during EOKA struggle. The answer to that claim is that it is not up to us to determine who should we enlist to the number of fatalities. Richter writes: "the official catalogue mentions the victims of EOKA between April the 1st 1955 and March 1959" (translation is mine, the book is in Greek, Heinz A. Richter History of Cyprus, Estia, Athens, 2011, pp=977-78) One can also have a look at page 979, there is a table with the injuries and fatalities by EOKA. Cinadon 36 04:28, 31 May 2019 (UTC) Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have asked users to participate in the Talk Page and asked for help at 3rd Opinion, which was invalid as the discussion at TalkPage was not extensive, moreover, more than two users have contributed. How do you think we can help? Should the article contain information about the fatalities caused by EOKA, as presented by RS ( Heinz A. Richter), or no because of POV related issues? Or could we change the wording? Summary of dispute by Dr.K.Basically, I completely agree with Khirurg's statement just below. Articles about military or paramilitary organisations don't include casualty tables, and for many good reasons. Can anyone imagine what would happen if there were tables for casualties allegedly caused by the British military or the US army in the various conflicts they participated in? Adding a casualty table to the EOKA article is a preposterously POV idea. Why doesn't the OP try to add a Cyprus conflict casualty table to the British Armed Forces article? What are the inclusion criteria for such a table? Nobody knows. Also David Carter was a member of the British military who also wrote a book calling EOKA Aphrodite's Killers. What kind of preposterously biased source is the OP trying to push, and for what bizarre POV reason? Dr. K. 08:35, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by KhirurgCinadon36 is bizarrely insisting on adding a "death toll" section, despite the fact that organizations don't have "death tolls". Even more bizarre he is insisting on including EOKA members killed by the British, i.e. blaming EOKA for their own deaths. Even more bizarrely he is insisting that this is all perfectly NPOV. Worst of all, the source he is using is a TRNC attache. I have looked at other similar articles, e.g. IRA, ETA, PKK, and none have a "death toll". Anyway, this has all been handled at the talkpage, there is no grounds for a DRN. Khirurg ( talk) 05:40, 31 May 2019 (UTC) Talk:EOKA#Death toll discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Thanks Khirurg and Dr.K. for your arguments. Here is my response.
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![]() | Closed as resolved. This discussion has been agreed to have been resolved by the parties. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
Bhaskarbhagawati on
11:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/ Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have discussed the issue extensively with them at:
How do you think we can help? The issue started back in 2012, when original old article Kamrupi was divided into Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors including Aeusoes, "citing lack of sources". Their chief argument was modern languages/dialects cannot have history. Since then i have added numerous sources but they dismisses and persistently deletes them, even though wp:rsn said they are reliable to use on the subject. I need wp:drn advice on the dispute. Summary of dispute by ChaipauThe dispute is not about whether Kamrupi dialect is a "modern speech which lacks history", but whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are synonymous and equivalent. That they are different was first pointed out by Kwamikagami around June/July 2012 and he tried to split the article in two 501823544. There was a brief tussle between Bhaskarbhagawati and Kwamikagami over moves, with Bhaskarbhagawati trying to move it to Kamrupi Language, which was eventually deleted. I agreed with Kwamikagami, and backed it up with two references (Sharma 1978 and Goswami 1970). Both these works are seminal and comprehensive enough and they name the two articles as they stand today. Bhaskarbhagawati at first tried to move the article, and then attempted a merge that failed. And since then his attempt has been to either insert "Kamrupi language" through citations in the lede or templates above it; or dig up references whose wordings seemingly implied that the modern dialect and the pre-1250 language are the same. Bhaskarbhagawati continues his attempt to merge the two, as he admitted here 890529414. The phrasing "modern speech which lacks history" is very recent, just a few days old. Even if this was the issue, then all the modern dialects in the dialectal continuum included in the Kamatapuri lects and the Assamese language too deserve their share of history. Chaipau ( talk) 01:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Aeusoes1Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I was brought to the issue in 2012 by a request for a third opinion regarding whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are referentially equivalent. I teased out the mutual claims that Bhaskarbhagawati and Chaipau made, and realized that the former editor had relied on cherry picked, misunderstood, or unauthoritative quotes to claim that the two were the same. Reliable sourcing instead indicates that the 12th century Prakrit was likely a precursor language to what amounts to a modern-day dialect continuum. As is typical for dialect continua, a few language divisions have been made that are linguistically arbitrary, but still recognized as valid for sociohistorical reasons. In the same way that we don't consider Latin and Italian to be the same language, we wouldn't consider the Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit to be the same, even though they are clearly related, because of the political, cultural, and linguistic changes that have happened since the 12th century. I explained this to Bhaskarbhagawati, but he disagrees with this assessment. He has so far not provided any convincing evidence that we should change the presentation in the article to reflect his belief that the two are referentially equivalent. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC) Talk:Kamrupi Prakrit, Talk:Kamrupi dialect discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
To support the statement that Kamrupi language do have history, i have provided references with full quotes from eminent local linguist, which are at [1] and [2]. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:36, 5 April 2019 (UTC) Sources by me (Bhaskarbhagawati)
First statement by moderatorSince this case is being referred to this noticeboard from WP:ANI, it is particularly important that the editors follow the rules, because otherwise this case will go back to WP:ANI, possibly with my recommendations for a block or a lock. Please follow the rules at my statement of the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article. I am not familiar with the details, but I understand that the issue has to do with how old the language is; I expect the editors to be able to inform me of all of the details, just as the article should inform readers of everything that is written by reliable sources. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers to my questions. Every editor is expected to reply to my questions within 48 hours. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they believe the issues are, and what the article should say? Be concise, because the article should be concise. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC) First statements by editorsThank you Robert McClenon, the precise dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/ Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature. Until 2012, original article was saying later, which was subsequently divided into Kamrupi dialect and Kamrupi Prakrit by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors citing lack of sources. Since then, relevant sources from eminent local linguists with full quotes are added to support its original position. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 07:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Kamrupi dialect currently states that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese, citing Goswami's (1970) A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. I think this is correct. Kamarupi Prakrit, Assamese language#History, and KRNB lects identify the time that Assamese (which includes dialects like Kamrupi) began differentiating itself from its ancestral language and surrounding varieties as around 1250. We thus already reflect that Kamrupi has a history by indicating the mother language that Kamrupi comes from, and we also already identify the body of literature that reflects this history. What we don't (and shouldn't) do is refer to Kamarupi Prakrit as merely an earlier form of Kamrupi, since there are a number of varieties also descended from Kamarupi Prakrit. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 02:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC) Second Statement by ModeratorI am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. Does anyone claim that the older language and the modern language are the same, or is there agreement that there has been linguistic evolution? If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours. Second Statements by EditorsTo be precise, Kamrupi dialect is a modern dialect of the Assamese language. It is established that Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved. It has evolved, after 1250, on the one hand into a group of lects (called Kamatapuri lects) that cluster together and on the other hand into Assamese language, which is also a cluster of lects or dialects. Thus, Kamarupi Prakrit → KRNB (Kamatapuri, Rangpuri, etc lects) + Assamese (Kamrupi, Goalparia, etc. dialects). Chaipau ( talk) 01:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Third statement by moderatorI am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours in less than 300 words. Be clear, concise, and civil. If the issue is how to accommodate different statements that are not inconsistent, this can be worked out. Robert McClenon ( talk) 08:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC) Third statements by editorsI am rephrasing the statements of dispute for better clarity. The disputes are:
The relevant sources for any academic consensus, i.e. Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, an work agreed on by both the parties and other relevant sources are included in "Second Statements by Editors" for reference of moderator. The other party has yet to produce sources which says opposite of "Kamrupi dialect is first Indo-Aryan language of Assam which is also the ancestral language of modern Assamese language", so there appears no contradiction between sources as of now. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderatorsIt appears that User:Richard Keatinge was not a previous party to this discussion and is trying to help resolve this. Unless he objects, I will add his name to the list of volunteers and will let the discussion continue under his moderation. I may chime in as a participant. I thank User:Richard Keatinge for assisting. Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC) Fourth statements by editorsRobert McClenon neutrality issue may be arise if Richard Keatinge made moderator of the current thread. He was an oppposite party in an recent dispute involving me (see: Talk:Assamese_people, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_259#Dravidian_ethno-linguistic_group_in_ancient_Assam,_India and others), and is next in line as party, as said dispute supposed to brought in here. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Fifth statement by moderatorOkay. I will continue as moderator, and have added User:Richard Keatinge as a party. We are in agreement that Kamrumpi Prakrit is a historic predecessor of modern Assamese, of which Kamrupi dialect is a form. What are the points of difference, then? Will each editor please state concisely what they see as the points of difference? Comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC) Fifth statements by editorsThanks to Robert McClenon and Bhaskarbhagawati; indeed it's much better if I don't try to moderate this discussion. As for the differences between ancient Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern Kamrupi dialect, I will leave any detailed description to the relevant articles and to the reliable sources, accurately represented by Chaipau and aeusoes1. It might indeed be helpful to have a comparison, possibly in the Kamarupi Prakrit article, between what is known of Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern dialects. But I am not equipped to provide anything of the sort. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Sixth statement by moderatorI think that we are in agreement on the major point. If there is disagreement, please so state. If so, the minor points will be worked out on the article talk page. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC) Sixth statements by editorsThere is disagreement regarding sources, reliable sources and viewpoints are excluded from the pages, other parties claim lacks sources. The major disagreements are:
Robert McClenon consider helping me with the above points, as we exhausted dispute resolution processess, i have no intention to carry the issue further, will accept once for all the recommendations provided here. A warm thank you to you. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 05:44, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Seventh statement by moderatorBhaskarbhagawati asks three questions. The answer to the first (all major viewpoints) is yes. Is there a viewpoint that is being excluded? The answer to the second (should exceptional claims be supported by sources) is that claims (whether or not exceptional) should be supported by sources. Are there unsourced claims? The third question has to do with whether to use common names. Is there an issue about the use of a less common name? Is there agreement that there are no published works on the older form of the language (which itself does not survive as a written langauge)? Chaipau makes a general statement, and so I will pose the above questions to both editors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:14, 24 April 2019 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors@ Robert McClenon: there is no dispute on the three matters of principle: (1) Should we represent the majority view (yes); (2) Should we support exceptional claims by sources (yes); and whether we should use the common name (yes). All these principles are being followed in the articles. What is at dispute are Bhaskarbhagawati's interpretations of these principles. Here are some examples:
What is at dispute here is the use of these principles to disruptively insert language and references in the lead of these articles to somehow indicate that these two articles are equivalent. I call it disruptive because since 2012 there is WP:CONSENSUS (not unanimity) that they are not equivalent, and which is exactly what we discovered in this discussion as well. Chaipau ( talk) 11:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Eighth statement by moderatorOkay. Let's try a different approach. The current articles will serve as the baseline. Will each editor please list all of the points where they think either of the articles should be changed? We will then see if we can work out the issues or if we need to use RFC, but it appears that we need to use RFC. Be concise, but list all of the points whee you believe there are content issues. Robert McClenon ( talk) 00:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Eighth statements by editors@ Robert McClenon: before I make the list, I would like to ask two questions.
Thanks! Chaipau ( talk) 10:07, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Ninth statement by moderator1. The first issue is the name of the article on the old language. Since there does not seem to be agreement, we will use a Move Request, which works like an RFC. This will take place while other discussion continues. Please list all proposed names. 2. We are in agreement that the two articles are not equivalent. One is about the older language and the other is about the modern dialect. Please identify any sections that imply an equivalence and we will fix them. 3. Please list all specific proposed changes. Be specific. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC) Ninth statements by editorsRobert McClenon, thank you for creating subpage for the discussion of the Kamrupi language/dialect issues. I am listing my opinion below : 1.The most common names as per current sources [7] [8] are Old Kamarupi dialect (3), Kamrupi language (3), Kamrupi Apabhramsa (3), Kamrupi Prakrit (2), Kamarupi Prakrit (1), proto-Kamrupa (1). 2. For point number two i rather ask a question about how we can accommodate linguists who opines old language is older form of modern Kamrupi (Upendranath Goswami, Golokchandra Goswami, Kaliram Medhi, Sukumar Sen, Madhumita Sengupta and others). 3. The specific proposed changes in my view are:
Thus, to summarise i suggest titling of article according to common name, inclusion of all viewpoints on the subject and restriction in their deletion, exclusion of unsourced claims and more weightage to experts. Since the beginning of our discussion there are serious misrepresentations, which i believe need to be addressed for those newer to the subject. Some of them are:
Tenth statement by moderatorI will be starting a Request for Comments on the primary title of this article. I will repeat my request to identify any proposed specific changes to the article. What part of "be specific" wasn't specific enough? "Inclusion of all viewpoints" is not specific, but a restatement of a principle. If any specific viewpoint is omitted and should be added, specify it. "Inclusion of all works and sources" is not specific. What works and sources? Do you want me to close this discussion with a finding that there is a lot of vague complaining? Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC) Tenth statements by editorsRobert McClenon sorry, actually i restated the principle of "inclusion of all viewpoints" because of other editors statement that viewpoints not in line of consensus should be excluded, although i supposed to be more specific. The most important viewpoints excluded are:
Changes to Kamrupi dialect
Chaipau ( talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Changes to Kamarupi Prakrit
Chaipau ( talk) 17:28, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Eleventh statement by moderatorHere is a summary of the contested points. User: Bhaskarbhagawati has requested that Goswami, Medhi, and Sengupta be included. User:Chaipau has requested five changes to Kamrupi dialect, and six changes to the articles on the old language. We are in agreement that the first paragraph of each article is satisfactory. Do the other editors agree to the specified changes? Robert McClenon ( talk) 13:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editorsThe first paragraphs (regional dialects, unattested etc.) are unsourced or sources not saying what it claimed, sources saying "first Indo-Aryan language of Assam". The contents of both the article are written reproducing what reliable sources saying, removing them as suggested by Chaipau lead to exclusion of scholarly viewpoints, unsourced content can be removed. Inclusion of all reliable sources will definitely depict Kamrupi dialect and Kamrupi language are indeed same. So to summarise, in my opinion no sourced content should removed, both article should reproduce exactly what reliable source are saying etc. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 17:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Twelfth statement by moderatorOkay. Let's try to work through this, one paragraph at a time, for the two articles. We will start with the lede paragraph of each article. Will each editor please provide their proposed text for the first paragraph of each article? Then we will see whether we can work out differences in the first paragraphs by discussion or whether we have to take each of them to RFC. Proposed changes to other paragraphs are permitted but not required at this point. Non-specific complaints, such as that viewpoints are being excluded or that the article is biased, are forbidden, and are subject to zero tolerance. If an editor makes any non-specific complaints that I cannot deal with explicitly, I will go back to WP:ANI with a recommendation that that editor be topic-banned from Indian languages. Okay. Provide your drafts for the first paragraph of each article. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC) Twelfth statements by editorsLede of old language Kamrupi language was first Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Bengal, Western Assam and parts of central Assam. It was sole literary language of the region till nineteenth century, subsequently lost its prestige and now become a dialect, spoken in modern Kamrup. [1] [2] The eastern Magadhi Prakrit gave rise to four languages, Radhi, Varendari, Kamrupi and Vanga. [3] This Kamrupi language can be dated at least to first millennium, when deluge of literary activity occurred in North Bengal and Western Assam [4], and the ancestor of the North Bengal dialects (Kamta, Rajbanshi and Northern Deshi Bangla) began to develop. [5] [6] This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam. [7] This apabhramsa gave rise to various modern eastern Indo-European languages like Assamese language [8] [9], and significantly different from it in terms of phonology, morphology and vocables. [10] [11]
References
Kamrupi dialect (formerly Kamrupi language) [1] was first Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Bengal, Western Assam and parts of central Assam, is also a modern dialect of Assamese language, that formerly enjoyed prestige status. [2] [3] [4] Kamrupi is heterogeneous with three subdialects— West (Barpeta), Central (Nalbari) and South Kamrupi (Palashbari). [5] In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry. This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry. [6] In more recent times, the South Kamrupi dialect has been used in the works of author Indira Goswami. Poet and nationalist Ambikagiri Raichoudhury also used Kamrupi in his works to great extent. [7] In 2018, the Kamrupi film Village Rockstars became the first from the region to be selected for India's official entry to the 91st Academy Awards. [8] भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 08:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC) First paragraph of Kamarupi Prakrit
First paragraph of Kamrupi dialect
I am not making any pointed refutation of Bhaskarbhagawati's proposed changes at this time. Chaipau ( talk) 19:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
References
Thirteenth RoundTwo RFCs are now running on the lede paragraphs to the two articles. They will run for 30 days, and will resolve the matter of the lede paragraphs. User:Chaipau has proposed a long list of changes to the two articles. Please read them over and indicate which you accept, which you want to compromise, and which you do not accept. Proposed Changes to Kamrupi dialect
Chaipau ( talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC) Proposed Changes to Kamarupi Prakrit
Thirteenth Statements by EditorsI am addressing all the points one by one. The proposed changes and my views on it are:
In modern language, the proposed change will remove the viewpoint of Kaliram Medhi( Medhi, Kaliram (1988). Assamese grammar and origin of the Assamese language, p.84).
For modern language, 'Similarities with Eastern Assamese' section cannot changed to 'Differences with Eastern Assamese/Standard Assamese language' because as per our current sources Kamrupi language/dialect is significantly different from standard Assamese language based on eastern Assamese dialect in terms of phonology, morphology and vocables. Therefore, we need to see if there any similarities rather differences which is obvious.
For modern language, 'region' section required because the language was originally spoken in modern Kamrup, then North Bengal, Western Assam and central Assam, afterwards in North Bengal, entire Brahmaputra valley, parts of Bangladesh and Bhutan, addition of parts of Bihar and so on. Eventually now in modern Kamrup. Thus uncertainty of region requires region section.
For modern langauge, 'Scholarly views' section is about significant linguists viewpoints on the subject, removing them is removing important viewpoints, but there are scope of changes in its presentation.
For modern language, the picture of Charyapada included as per quote of Upendranath Goswami, it should not be removed. (Goswami Upendranath (1970), A study on Kamrupi: a dialect of Assamese, Dept. of Historical Antiquarian Studies, p.4.) The first and second paragraph is sourced to last citation, should be kept. The name of medieval writers need to be included either in history or literature section, definitely not in region section. The fourth paragraph about medieval writer 'Sankaradeva' cannot be removed because it will again remove views of Kaliram Medhi.
Thus to summarise, the proposed removal of content of the both articles lead to exclusion of important viewpoints. Although, i am open to inclusion of other sources which contradicts them. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 10:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC) In defense of the proposed changesI shall be providing point-to-point defense of the edit suggestions I have made. I shall be done within a day...and when I am done, I shall indicate it. Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti: The reference is not the official position of the organization, but an article in the journal, authored by Parikshit Hazarika (1968). It makes the same point as that made by M M Sharma (1978), that there exists irregularities in the Sanskrit text of Kamarupa inscriptions, but his central assertion—that this indicates an Kamarupa Apabhramsha parallel to Magadha Apabhramsha—is no longer accepted. Subsequent and recent authors have continued to accept that a dialect of the Magadhi Apabhramsha is the origin of the KRNB lects and the Assamese language. Therefore, on the basis of WP:RS_AGE, WP:RSCONTEXT, since Kamarupa Prakrit is a later coinage and more accurate, it should be retained. Chaipau ( talk) 11:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Round Fourteen: ModeratorI made a mistake somehow on the RFC on the old language, and the two versions were identical. That has been closed. I think that I have this time entered Version A and Version B correctly. I will be reviewing previous postings shortly and will provide an update. Until then, conduct all discussion in the Threaded Discussion sections. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:04, 15 May 2019 (UTC) Round Fifteen: Statement by ModeratorIt appears that User:Chaipau has five or six proposed changes to each of the two articles, and that User:Bhaskarbhagawati is satisfied with the articles. Is that correct? Each user may identify one change to each article that they consider to have the highest priority. We will then start an RFC on each of those changes. If you are satisfied with the current content, you don't need to propose a change. Please list your proposed change in the section below. Do not reply to the other editor's changes. That discussion can be done in a No vote on the RFC or in the Threaded Discussion. Trying to discuss all of the changes at once gets nowhere. So each editor may propose one change to each article, in the space below. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:00, 15 May 2019 (UTC) Fifteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon, indeed i disagree with proposed deletion of content secured by sources suggested by Chaipau, as said in my last statement, and i don't want to propose any newer changes except which are already under RFC. Also the publications of Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti are vetted. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 06:38, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Sixteenth Statement by ModeratorI had thought that maybe we could make some progress toward resolving this dispute, but it appears that the issue is being raised again of whether to combine the two articles. Some of us thought that there was agreement that we would have two articles, one on the older language and one on the modern language or dialect. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - I will give you one last choice. Do you want to discuss how to improve the two articles, or do you want to have a merge discussion to combine the two articles? If you choose to work to improve the two articles, you will not be allowed to complain about the decision seven years ago to split them, and if you do complain, I will go to Arbitration Enforcement and request that you be topic-banned from Indian languages for one year. If you choose to have a merge discussion, we will have a merge discussion, and if it keeps the two articles, you will be subject to being topic-banned from them. Now - Choose. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - You have 24 hours to decide which course we will take. If you do not decide within 24 hours, I will decide for you, and I will not permit you to go back. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Both of you have been notified again of ArbCom discretionary sanctions. I have been patient, maybe too patient. I don't plan to be patient any longer, either with vague complaints about censorship, vague complaints that all viewpoints should be represented (which we already agree one), other vague complaints, or side complaining about the history of the articles. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) User:Chaipau - Within 48 hours, please identify one change to each article that has the highest priority. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Sixteenth Statements by EditorsI would like to suggest the top items from Round Thirteen.
Chaipau ( talk) 03:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Seventeenth Statement by ModeratorI would like to get this dispute resolution wrapped up. I have started two RFCs, one on each subject. I would like to know whether the participants are willing to resume discussion on the article talk pages without moderation. Unless there is an objection, in 48 hours I will suspend moderation and allow discussion to resume while this case is on hold. We will see whether regular discussion is working. If it is working, good. If it doesn't work, I may resume moderated discussion, but will more likely either ask User:Abecedare to intervene or will file a request at Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:50, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Seventeenth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: I would request a moderated discussion if it is possible. Otherwise the discussions over the last seven years have been circular and repetitive. This has happened for every singly minor point. I fear any un-moderated discussion will give us nothing. I believe that the 44 days of moderated discussion has yielded more resolution than the last seven years. Just my two cents. Chaipau ( talk) 16:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Eighteenth Statement by ModeratorOkay. If it is requested that moderated discussion continue, I will continue moderated discussion. I will be slowing down the pace of moderated discussion. I will be starting up to four more RFCs in about one week. Each editor may request one more RFC on each article. (If any additional editors want to be added as parties and request RFCs, I will add them, which might result in more than four RFCs.) My objective is to keep the number of RFCs open at a given time to a manageable number. A few reminders are in order. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution. Casting aspersions on the motives or good faith of editors is forbidden. Personal attacks are forbidden. When I say that casting aspersions and personal attacks are forbidden, there will be no warnings. If they happen, I will request immediate sanctions. I will be drawing up a revised set of rules for this moderation in the next few days. Do not edit the articles. You may and should discuss on the article talk pages. To that extent, the ANI restriction is modified. Discussion on the article talk pages must follow talk page guidelines and may not involve aspersions or personal attacks. Within five days, each editor should identify one more RFC. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Eighteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon, thank you. Your conditions are nothing unusual, and in normal times that is what it should be. I would rather see this take six month to resolve than continue the situation for another seven years. Chaipau ( talk) 19:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Nineteenth Statement by ModeratorUser:Richard Keatinge - You already are a party to this case. What matter do you in particular want resolved? Each editor may submit one more RFC request now. User:Bhaskarbhagawati - I had also expected that this would be resolved by now. Other editors advise me that this controversy has been going on for seven years. If you don't want this discussion to continue for a few more months, I think that other editors would be willing to have you agree to a topic-ban. If you want this discussion put on hold, please explain why it needs to be put on hold. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:28, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Be sure to !vote in favor of any RFCs that you have requested. Since I am the originator, and I am neutral, your request will not be counted as support. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Nineteenth Statements by EditorsRobert McClenon good evening, i am currently very busy in some important things because of which i maybe not able to fully focus in our discussion. If you disagree, i will try to comeback here once a day. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Twentieth Statement by ModeratorI never said that participants should not vote in the RFCs. I did say, in response to a suggestion that participants not vote in the RFCs, that participants should vote in the RFCs. Each editor may propose one more RFC to each article. I determine what the rules are. I don't want any parties trying to tweak the rules to their advantage. I have no intention of putting this on hold unless there is agreement by all of the participants that it should be put on hold. If the participants want to conclude the moderated discussion, they may do so, in which case they will agree to be bound by everything that has been decided, or that will be decided by any ongoing RFCs, RMs, et cetera. I am not putting this on hold unless there is a very good reason. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:54, 30 May 2019 (UTC) Twentieth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: Thanks for the clarification—I just wanted to know what are rules are. I do not think we should put this on hold. We have had this issue in the past and the process(es) then stalled. I don't want that to happen here and look forward to a resolution. Chaipau ( talk) 01:54, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-First Statement by ModeratorUser:Bhaskarbhagawati - What exactly are you asking be changed? Exactly what change to one of the articles are you asking to have rolled back? Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) User:Richard Keatinge, User:Chaipau - Are either you or anyone else requesting that a change to one of the articles be rolled back? Exactly what is being requested? Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) It has already been established that all academic viewpoints should be included. Is there a question about the inclusion of an academic viewpoint? Please be specific. Vague complaints and vague comments are not useful. Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Please reply here within 24 hours. If there is a question about changes to the article or about the inclusion or exclusion of viewpoints, we need to identify it and resolve it. Robert McClenon ( talk) 10:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-First Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: I am not requesting any change. The issue, on a different subject, went through an RfC recently and it was settled ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAssamese_people&type=revision&diff=893523107&oldid=891769625). But since it ended not to user:Bhaskarbhagawati's liking, he is trying to re-litigate. I would request you not to include that issue in this process. I apologize for bringing it here. Chaipau ( talk) 11:51, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: The discussion that user:Bhaskarbhagawati started a couple of days ago has been closed as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AAssamese_people&type=revision&diff=900285200&oldid=900207257 FYI, user:Richard Keatinge. Chaipau ( talk) 17:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Second Statement by ModeratorAre the editors, both of the principal editors, requesting that this DRN be closed, or that it continue? If closed, is there agreement to accept the results of the RFCs? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:41, 4 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-Second Statements by editorsAs said earlier i have no further request for change, and i will accept the RFCs, thank you. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Please consider completing this DRN process. I don't think this dispute can continue any further. We require a resolution, so we can improve these articles, beyond the listed change requests. Chaipau ( talk) 15:54, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Good. So, with my apologies to the moderator for this digression, let us proceed to resolve this matter.
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
20:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Third Statement by ModeratorIt appears that the parties are saying that they are ready to conclude this moderated discussion. If anyone has any specific further changes, please identify them within 48 hours. If no further changes are requested within 48 hours, I will close this discussion, with a finding that consensus has been achieved, and that editing against consensus will be disruptive. Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:56, 9 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-Third Statements by EditorsIt is my impression, and hope, that we have reached a consensus on the major points. I hope that it will be helpful to list them here:
(And, I trust, we positively agree that the above system of nomenclature in no way denies the continuities between these two groups of lects, and other lects. Nor does it offer any disrespect to the literary achievements expressed in mediaeval and modern times, in related Kamrupi lects.)
Keep first paragraph as it is. No change. Second paragraph: "In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry." → "In late medieval times Kamrupi forms are found in prose, such as those compiled in the Kamrupar Buranji." "This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry.[6]" → "The use of Kamrupi dialect in modern times has plummeted due to the prevalence of the standard variety though in recent times there has been a trend to use this in major media. Keep the section Kamrupi_dialect#Features as it is, except: Rename the section Kamrupi_dialect#Similarities_with_Eastern_Assamese to Difference with Eastern Assamese" because the section discusses the differences and not the similarities. Add section on similarities later when needed. Change the name of the section Kamrupi_dialect#Definition_of_the_region to "Kamrup region". Remove all the text from this section, since it is already covered in Kamrup region. In its stead, we should have a short paragraph to be extended later. This is a sample paragraph: "The group of Kamrupi dialects is spoken in the Kamrup region, which has had a consistent administrative delineation since the 17th century, first under the Mughals, then under the Ahoms and later under the British and then Indian district of Undivided Kamrup. There are primarily three major dialects spoken in this region: Barpetia dialect in the west; Nalbaria dialect in the east and Palasbaria dialect in the south. These dialects form a dialect continuum within themselves and with the adjoining dialects of Goalparia dialect to the west and the Pati-Darrangia dialect to its east." The section Kamrupi_dialect#Scholarly_views is largely a POV fork and should be deleted. In the section Kamrupi_dialect#Literature: Remove the picture of Charyapada, since it is closest to Kamarupi Prakrit; and the similarity is claimed by many languages. Remove the first and the second paragraphs Transfer the name of medieval writers from Kamrup region to the previous section (Kamrup region), after verifying the writers are indeed from Kamrup region. Remove fourth paragraph — Sankardev was not from Kamrup and he did not use Kamrupi dialect in his writings — he used old literary Assamese.
Keep the first paragraph as it is. No change. In the second paragraph, remove "This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam.[7]". Remove "Linguists claim this apabhramsa gave rise to various eastern Indo-European languages like modern Assamese and felt its presence in the form of Kamrupi and Kamatapuri lects.[9][10]", because this is a repeat of "Though not substantially proven, the existence of the language that predated the Kamatapuri lects and Assamese is widely believed.[5]" with a confusing set of citations. In section "Etymology of names" remove "Sukumar Sen and others calls it as old Kamrupi dialect;[12][13][14] the speech used in old Kamrup[12]" This sentence is trying to equate Kamrupi dialect with Kamarupi Prakrit; it attributes it to Sukumar Sen, whereas the author is Upendranath Goswami etc. Remove the picture of Nidhanpur plates, because it makes no sense to just display the plates without pointing out the "prakritism"; OTOH, if the prakritisms are available, then they should be presented in the caption. Add the following caption in the Charyapada picture "Charyapada, written between the 8th and 12th century, contains evidence of Bengali language, Assamese language, Oriya language and Maithili language; and it most likely contains the most direct evidence of Kamarupi Prakrit." If this caption is not acceptable, then we should drop the picture entirely. Remove the two last sections: Kamarupi_Prakrit#Geographical_vicinity is a POV fork, that attempts to equate Kamrupi dialect with Kamarupi prakrit, and the paragraph is very convoluted. Kamarupi_Prakrit#Works is also another POV fork that attempts the same thing. The aphorisms of Dak are found in east Indo-Aryan languages, adapted for modern usage. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:43, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
References
Twenty-Fourth Statement by ModeratorThere is back-and-forth discussion above. I had said that back-and-forth discussion is not permitted.
User:Bhaskarbhagawati has a complaint that proposed RFCs are in disagrement with WP:V and WP:NOR. Do they have a different suggestion? I can close this discussion or continue it. Generalized complaints are not useful. Are we ready to close this discussion, or is there a further matter to address? Robert McClenon ( talk) 20:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Fourth Statements by Editors@ Robert McClenon: the back and forth is regrettable. It should not happen again.
Chaipau ( talk) 10:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Twenty-Fifth Statement by ModeratorUser:Bhaskarbhagawati - I have said in the past that vague statements such as "All academic viewpoints on the subject need to be included" (which is already a matter of Wikipedia policies) and "Include contradicting academic views" are not helpful. Please clarify exactly what if any change you want made. Does each editor have any more comments? Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:43, 14 June 2019 (UTC) Twenty-fifth Statements by EditorsNone from me. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:09, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
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![]() | Closed as conduct dispute. After one editor has said that a statement by another editor is a "complete lie", it is no longer the sort of content dispute that can be resolved in a civil manner. Take complaints about lying to WP:ANI. Any remaining content disputes can be dealt with here later. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
PluniaZ on
04:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview Is the deleted sentence in this diff supported by the source that is given? The given source says nothing to the effect that supporters of anyone countered anyone or anything, does not affirm whether any sanctions were official, and says nothing about sanctions being loosely enforced. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have repeatedly explained on the article talk page that the deleted sentence is not supported by the given source, but Display name 99 ( talk) refuses to budge. How do you think we can help? Can a volunteer please take a quick look at the source and explain to Display name 99 ( talk) that it does not support the disputed sentence? Thank you. Summary of dispute by Display name 99Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The Catholic Herald article states that it is possible to believe that some sort of restrictions were imposed on McCarrick that were not heavily enforced. It concludes with a strong suggestion that Vigano is telling the truth. I'd be fine with replacing the words "Vigano's defenders" if that's causing a problem, but the statement that some have suggested that there were restrictions that McCarrick ignored and that Benedict XVI didn't enforce is clearly supported by the source. Here's another article from LifeSiteNews, a Traditional Catholic website, which vigorously defends Vigano and advances a similar theory. LifeSiteNews is not a trusworthy source for factual information, especially if it happens to be controversial, but it is useful to understand what supporters of Vigano are saying. This article is fine to use in my opinion because it's explanation of the sanctions not being strictly enforced is in line with the Catholic Herald article. I strongly believe that this view should be represented in order to comply with WP:NPOV. Display name 99 ( talk) 17:16, 14 June 2019 (UTC) Talk:Theodore Edgar_McCarrick#Superfluous_material_in_Vigano_section discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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![]() | Closed as conduct dispute. An editor has labeled a statement by another editor about this article, in the other related thread, as a "complete lie". Allegations of lying can be resolved at WP:ANI. After the conduct dispute is resolved, there may or may not still be a content dispute. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
Display name 99 on
18:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview There were two paragraphs in the article that PluniaZ wanted removed but which I wanted to remain. We unsuccessfully tried to reach an agreement on the talk page before PluniaZ launched an RfC and eventually reached one while the RfC was still open. The problem was that neither PluniaZ nor myself shut the RfC down afterwards. An editor later weighed in and agreed that the content should be removed. However, the content that they stated should be removed was the content that existed prior to our compromise. PluniaZ used that as an excuse to go back on our agreement and remove the content that was agreed to during the compromise, which was modified to assuage their objections. An administrator added the compromise version to the article while it was under protection on our mutual request. To me, this is extremely questionable both because the editor who voted in the RfC based their response on the original version before the compromise and because the RfC was still technically open. Here is the diff of the removal. I closed the RfC just before making this request. Have you tried to resolve this previously? The issue was discussed extensively on the talk page. I requested the intervention of the only administrator active at the article, but she doesn't seem to want to get involved. How do you think we can help? I'm looking to see if someone can make a judgment as to the validity of the "consensus" for removal that PluniaZ claimed existed for removal while also possibly offering an opinion on whether or not the content in question is appropriate for the article and supported by the sources. Summary of dispute by PluniaZBoth Display name 99 and I continued to make edits to the paragraphs under dispute while the RfC was up. Neither of us agreed to a final version of the paragraphs, or whether to include them at all. After 9 days had gone by, we received only one response to the RfC, who agreed with my proposal to remove both paragraphs. Nevertheless, Display name 99 continued to make his own edits to the paragraphs. Given that it did not appear that anyone else was going to respond to the RfC, I removed both paragraphs in the belief that this was the consensus that had been reached on the Talk Page. I am not sure why Display name 99 has closed the RfC if he believes consensus has not been reached. -- PluniaZ ( talk) 14:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC) Talk:Theodore Edgar McCarrick#RfC: Superfluous material in a biography of a living person that is not supported by the sources provided discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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![]() | Closed. Being taken care of with a Requested Merge. Robert McClenon ( talk) 22:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
73.32.38.72 on
21:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Tal's Hill is a former feature of Minute Maid Park that was removed in 2016. Tal's Hill had its own article until 28 February 2007, when it was merged into the Minute Maid Park article. The C of E recreated the article on 3 March 2017. I proposed merging on 10 October 2018. Oldsanfelipe supported the merger as long as all the information from the standalone article was kept in the Minute Maid Park article. WhisperToMe recommended merging all the Tal's Hill information into the Minute Maid Park article and then waiting to see if more information were added which would necessitate spinning it back out, and that is a clear support for merging from WhisperToMe as well. GenQuest completed the merger on 25 March 2019, indicating support for the merge from GenQuest as well. That's four people in favor of merger (including myself), only one person opposed. The C of E reverted GenQuest's merger, claiming "no consensus for a move." I had not seen GenQuest's attempted merger when I merged the articles yesterday, and The C of E reverted my merger 8 minutes later, claiming because three of the comments in the discussion were from me that was not consensus, and claimed the discussion was WP:STALE and if I wanted to merge, I would have to make a proper proposal (which I had already done in October). The WP:STALE link The C of E provided relates to old unfinished draft articles on User Pages, it has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with setting some kind of expiration date for merger proposals. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I made a proper merger proposal, and even though there was already 3 to 1 consensus in favor of merging, I waited nearly 8 months to complete the merger to see if anyone other than The C of E would oppose the merger (no one did). Since The C of E's behavior concerning this article is starting to appear tendentious and OWNy, I think it is necessary and appropriate to now escalate to this board. How do you think we can help? First, by weighing in on The C of E's argument that the October 2018 merger proposal and resulting 3 to 1 consensus for merging is stale, and confirming that it has not passed some "expiration date". Second, by weighing in on whether there is indeed consensus for a merger, and/or providing a larger body of consensus either for or against a merger. Summary of dispute by The C of EPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
First off, I'll correct the IP's claim that I created the article in 2007]. This is false, I did not create it then, it was created by me in 2017. There was no 3-1 consensus. You had 1 for (by the IP), 1 against (from me), one who gave an "either-way" response and one who suggested a possible alternative but not definitively specifying what their opinion was. Furthermore, he mis-characterizes me as relying on "I didn't know" when I clearly stated that WP:CCC and that it would be WP:UNDUE if merged and only said I wasn't aware of any prior decision as a throwaway line. As for STALE, the last comment made in the discussion was in October which to me indicates the debate has fizzled out and there is no agreement for changes. Then suddenly the IP declares they have consensus and made moves when no such consensus exists despite the fact when the debate had been dead for 8 months prior. If they want a broader consensus properly, then they should have relisted rather than make the move they did here. The C of E God Save the Queen! ( talk) 22:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by WhisperToMePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by GenQuestThe proposed merger sat in the que for about seven months or so, not unusual for the merger noticeboard, as there is often long que-lines. I edit merge requests as I can, and am generally neutral in the process, although I may have an opinion about the request(s). The consensus when I viewed the discussion, imo, was to merge, and I proceeded to do so. There is no time limit on Wikipedia, and I certainly did not consider the discussion stale, just finished and waiting to happen. Since no one else in that months long time-frame of that request sitting in the que considered the proposal a bad thing, it seemed proper to proceed with the request, adhering to one participants' condition that no referenced content be lost. That is when I proceeded to enact the merge, and closed the PM noticeboard request out. (I, however, did not close the discussion.) The merger was reversed shortly afterward, which sometimes happens. I leave it to the other participants of the original discussion, and the board here, to indicate what the future course should be. I, for one, believe it to be proper that the merge occur. Regards, GenQuest "Talk to Me" 19:33, 10 June 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by OldsanfelipePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Minute Maid_Park#Merger_proposal discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
(Volunteer Note - Although the IP is not required to register an account, the opinions of unregistered editors is typically discounted in RFCs and Requested Moves. The unregistered editor is strongly advised to register an account if they want their opinion to be taken into account. If not, not. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
References
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![]() | Closed as a binary question. One of the editors agrees that this is a yes-no question, and so there is no value to moderated discussion. The parties are advised to resolve this by a Request for Comments. A Request for Comments should be neutrally worded, and will be binding. Report edit-warring at the edit-warring noticeboard. Report disruption at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:40, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Filed by
Cinadon36 on
07:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Discussion on adding info about the number of fatalities caused by EOKA's actions. I am advocating for including the numbers of fatalities by EOKA as presented by Heinz A. Richter. Other users claim that it is POV and shouldn't be included in the article. My response to that is it is not POV, it is just facts and numbers. Moreover, if it were POV, we could attribute. Another objection is that it is hard to clarify who died because of EOKA actions or during EOKA struggle. The answer to that claim is that it is not up to us to determine who should we enlist to the number of fatalities. Richter writes: "the official catalogue mentions the victims of EOKA between April the 1st 1955 and March 1959" (translation is mine, the book is in Greek, Heinz A. Richter History of Cyprus, Estia, Athens, 2011, pp=977-78) One can also have a look at page 979, there is a table with the injuries and fatalities by EOKA. Cinadon 36 04:28, 31 May 2019 (UTC) Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have asked users to participate in the Talk Page and asked for help at 3rd Opinion, which was invalid as the discussion at TalkPage was not extensive, moreover, more than two users have contributed. How do you think we can help? Should the article contain information about the fatalities caused by EOKA, as presented by RS ( Heinz A. Richter), or no because of POV related issues? Or could we change the wording? Summary of dispute by Dr.K.Basically, I completely agree with Khirurg's statement just below. Articles about military or paramilitary organisations don't include casualty tables, and for many good reasons. Can anyone imagine what would happen if there were tables for casualties allegedly caused by the British military or the US army in the various conflicts they participated in? Adding a casualty table to the EOKA article is a preposterously POV idea. Why doesn't the OP try to add a Cyprus conflict casualty table to the British Armed Forces article? What are the inclusion criteria for such a table? Nobody knows. Also David Carter was a member of the British military who also wrote a book calling EOKA Aphrodite's Killers. What kind of preposterously biased source is the OP trying to push, and for what bizarre POV reason? Dr. K. 08:35, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by KhirurgCinadon36 is bizarrely insisting on adding a "death toll" section, despite the fact that organizations don't have "death tolls". Even more bizarre he is insisting on including EOKA members killed by the British, i.e. blaming EOKA for their own deaths. Even more bizarrely he is insisting that this is all perfectly NPOV. Worst of all, the source he is using is a TRNC attache. I have looked at other similar articles, e.g. IRA, ETA, PKK, and none have a "death toll". Anyway, this has all been handled at the talkpage, there is no grounds for a DRN. Khirurg ( talk) 05:40, 31 May 2019 (UTC) Talk:EOKA#Death toll discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Thanks Khirurg and Dr.K. for your arguments. Here is my response.
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