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2019 June 11 >

10 June 2019

  • Ruth Koleva – Endorse, but draftify. I don't know if there's truly a consensus, but the general feeling is that the AfD close was correct, hence endorse. But, if somebody wants to work on fixing the problems identified at AfD and/or here, they can do so in draftspace and resubmit for review when they're done. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Ruth Koleva ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

Hello. In my opinion this article should be brought back, because it was wrongfully deleted for lack of notability. She is a notable musician in Bulgaria. The nominator and the delete supporters haven't looked up for local sources. If you search for her name in Bulgarian (Рут Колева), multiple links for interviews, TV appearances and etc. can be seen. The other argument in the deletion discussion was the lack of notability and reliable sources for her awards, which I tried to add prior to the deletion. Most of them are BG Radio Awards, considered a high achievement and the only nationally televised pop music award show in the country. Thank you. Quickfingers ( talk) 01:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC) reply

Quickfingers was asked for the best three or four sources, and failed. See WP:THREE. Not six.
Sources are all, or mostly, Russian. Where is the article on the Russian wikipedia? Maybe I got the language wrong? I know foreign sources are OK, but a foreign single, deleted at AfD, with no article on native language Wikipedia for source, that is a big negative flag.
Do not allow recreation unless without unambiguous presentation of WP:THREE (not six) quality sources. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 06:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
@ SmokeyJoe: It's clearly noted she's Bulgarian in the DRV statement. You're looking for [1]. Also, I know it's not the only reason you weren't convinced, but I don't think it's fair to chide someone for providing six sources in good faith even if only asked for three or four. SportingFlyer T· C 06:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Yeah sorry. I think was I was grumpy. bg:Рут Колева. I’ll look again later. And yes, it’s not fair to chide the individual for the common problem that newcomers thing more sources is better. Offering more sources just makes it harder for reviewers. Two good sources are enough. If the best three are not, no number of additional weaker sources will make the difference. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 09:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
It's tedious to review six foreign language sources using google translate. Please, WP:THREE, not more. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The sources look too promotional, and look non-independent of the subject, and so do not attest WP:Notability. There may be independent third party coverage that can be found, it does not have to be comprehensive coverage, but it must be someone independent, from a distance, writing something, multiple sentences, qualitative about the subject. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Are you suggesting that Bulgarian National Radio and Television, state-funded outlets and the two most watched private TV networks in the country, bTV and Nova TV are not credible? I only linked Actualno, because the better source is locked behind a registation wall. The Jazz.FM article is just a review of her album. Quickfingers ( talk) 06:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC) reply
"Credible" is not the test. The more likely the point of failure is that the source is "promotional", or more specifically, not independent of the subject or her agent. I suggest that you write a draft stub using the three best sources that qualify for the WP:GNG. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 07:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC) reply
You're acting as if they were press releases on her website, rather than articles on local high-profile medias. They're not CNN or New York Times levels, but nonetheless highly influential in Bulgaria, and obviously independent of her. Please set your bar lower. I'm only claiming notability in that particular country. Quickfingers ( talk) 01:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
1 [2]
23.04.2012 07:44. Content on the subject is thin. What is a " BG Artist"? If it were a notable award, it would have an article, or at least a section in an article. I would not lead with this source. Why did you choose this as the #1 source?
2 [3]
"Ruth Koleva - the singer with a world image" published on 08.06.18 at 17:13 Author: Maya Raykova "Ruth Koleva is one of the brightest, attractive and talented performers of the Bulgarian pop jazz music, with a rich artistic biography and a serious presence on the world music scene. " "Ruth Koleva is Singer of the Year by BG Radio and Woman of the Year of Gracia Magazine. She is the first Bulgarian artist to be awarded the "Best Jazz Singer" Award by Radio Inter FM in Japan in 2015..."
This looks pretty good.
3 [4]
Ruth Koleva is on a major European tour 16.04.2018 " the start is on April 22, when Ruth will sing in the popular London club "Hoxton Underbelly" and that is the biggest tour of a Bulgarian performer in her genre." This is promotion of an upcoming tour, does not demonstrate notability.
4 [5]
"This site can’t be reached"
Works perfectly fine on my side. Try using Google Cache. Click It's also archived on the Wayback Machine, but currently they're having server issues. 14:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Ruth Koleva - a step from Grammy 04 November 2018 10:58
"Her album was selected among the 12,000 released during the year"
"Ruth Koleva's album is a step away from the Grammy Awards."
"My Album" Confidence. Truth "came out in Bulgaria last year and went international in April through an American label. He was approved to be nominated for a Grammy nomination, "Ruth Koleva told the Writer."
My hardline source-analysis-for-Wikipedia-notability could say "This is an interview, promotion, not independent, does not demonstrate notability", but I do agree with User:SportingFlyer that the subject looks easily notable. I guess that you are just providing a poor selection of sources. Again, WP:THREE, which should be the rule for recreating previously AfD deleted topics. I think you could easily make an article better than your other articles Alisia (singer) and Malina (Bulgarian singer) but I have to say that these are directory style information only, they contain an excessive number of promotional external links, and I would likely !vote "delete" at AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 02:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC) reply
5 [6]
Ruth Koleva and the Sofia Philharmonic with a gala concert on 24 May on bTV. Watch from 23 o'clock. 20 may 2015
This is promotion.
6 [7]
"Confidence. Ruth Koleva's Truth - an album born on the path of her growing as an artist and a man" 13.11.2017 Tanya Ivanova
This is promotion of an upcoming event. "On November 16 Ruth Koleva will present Confidence. Truth in Bulgaria Hall. This will be her second concert there after 2015, which overcame the hall. Now, Ruth promises an even bigger show - like actors, sound, visuals and lighting. "In this concert we are dealing with three different elements, such as jazz, folklore and classics." - tells the vocalist who will appear on stage with her group," The source is he vocalist, not independent, does not satisfy the WP:GNG, not useful for attesting notability.
Sources that amount to promotion of an upcoming event are not sources that demonstrate notability, they are almost certainly agent publicity. Can you find reviews written after the event?
Promotional material, whether press releases on her website, or cleverly placed advertising on local high-profile medias, cannot be used to demonstrate notability. #2 shows promise. #1 fails and caused me not to take you seriously. #4 can't be reached. The rest fail on analysis. Do you speak Bulgarian? Why don't you improve bg:Рут Колева? When I translated that, I found something that I would nominate at AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 05:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Different languages have different notability standards, and it's clear to me doing a search in Bulgarian she passes WP:GNG. For instance, the first source isn't really sigcov, but winning a Bulgarian Radio award almost certainly passes WP:SINGER #8. Plus, there's a lot of other coverage not presented here - for instance, she's enough of a name in Bulgaria that she's a first name opinion on political issues. See [8]. SportingFlyer T· C 07:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Is it a “major music award”? If it is, then why does it have no mention anywhere in mainspace. I still recommend improving the Bulgarian article first. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 08:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The fact the Bulgarian article may be promotional has absolutely nothing to do with English WP:GNG. Searching БГ РАДИО brings up a number of Bulgarian articles discussing the nominees and winners from what appear to be reliable Bulgarian websites, not just about Ms. Koleva. SportingFlyer T· C 08:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
If User:Quickfingers is fluent in Bulgarian, and noting the subject and all sources are Bulgarian, I recommend he improve the Bulgarian article first. I think it is the easiest way forward. Alternatively, he may choose to write a draft to flesh out minimal material from these sources, but people like me will look to the native language article, and it may spoil the assessment. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 11:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_June_10&oldid=1039550265"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< 2019 June 9
2019 June 11 >

10 June 2019

  • Ruth Koleva – Endorse, but draftify. I don't know if there's truly a consensus, but the general feeling is that the AfD close was correct, hence endorse. But, if somebody wants to work on fixing the problems identified at AfD and/or here, they can do so in draftspace and resubmit for review when they're done. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Ruth Koleva ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

Hello. In my opinion this article should be brought back, because it was wrongfully deleted for lack of notability. She is a notable musician in Bulgaria. The nominator and the delete supporters haven't looked up for local sources. If you search for her name in Bulgarian (Рут Колева), multiple links for interviews, TV appearances and etc. can be seen. The other argument in the deletion discussion was the lack of notability and reliable sources for her awards, which I tried to add prior to the deletion. Most of them are BG Radio Awards, considered a high achievement and the only nationally televised pop music award show in the country. Thank you. Quickfingers ( talk) 01:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC) reply

Quickfingers was asked for the best three or four sources, and failed. See WP:THREE. Not six.
Sources are all, or mostly, Russian. Where is the article on the Russian wikipedia? Maybe I got the language wrong? I know foreign sources are OK, but a foreign single, deleted at AfD, with no article on native language Wikipedia for source, that is a big negative flag.
Do not allow recreation unless without unambiguous presentation of WP:THREE (not six) quality sources. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 06:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
@ SmokeyJoe: It's clearly noted she's Bulgarian in the DRV statement. You're looking for [1]. Also, I know it's not the only reason you weren't convinced, but I don't think it's fair to chide someone for providing six sources in good faith even if only asked for three or four. SportingFlyer T· C 06:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Yeah sorry. I think was I was grumpy. bg:Рут Колева. I’ll look again later. And yes, it’s not fair to chide the individual for the common problem that newcomers thing more sources is better. Offering more sources just makes it harder for reviewers. Two good sources are enough. If the best three are not, no number of additional weaker sources will make the difference. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 09:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
It's tedious to review six foreign language sources using google translate. Please, WP:THREE, not more. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The sources look too promotional, and look non-independent of the subject, and so do not attest WP:Notability. There may be independent third party coverage that can be found, it does not have to be comprehensive coverage, but it must be someone independent, from a distance, writing something, multiple sentences, qualitative about the subject. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Are you suggesting that Bulgarian National Radio and Television, state-funded outlets and the two most watched private TV networks in the country, bTV and Nova TV are not credible? I only linked Actualno, because the better source is locked behind a registation wall. The Jazz.FM article is just a review of her album. Quickfingers ( talk) 06:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC) reply
"Credible" is not the test. The more likely the point of failure is that the source is "promotional", or more specifically, not independent of the subject or her agent. I suggest that you write a draft stub using the three best sources that qualify for the WP:GNG. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 07:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC) reply
You're acting as if they were press releases on her website, rather than articles on local high-profile medias. They're not CNN or New York Times levels, but nonetheless highly influential in Bulgaria, and obviously independent of her. Please set your bar lower. I'm only claiming notability in that particular country. Quickfingers ( talk) 01:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
1 [2]
23.04.2012 07:44. Content on the subject is thin. What is a " BG Artist"? If it were a notable award, it would have an article, or at least a section in an article. I would not lead with this source. Why did you choose this as the #1 source?
2 [3]
"Ruth Koleva - the singer with a world image" published on 08.06.18 at 17:13 Author: Maya Raykova "Ruth Koleva is one of the brightest, attractive and talented performers of the Bulgarian pop jazz music, with a rich artistic biography and a serious presence on the world music scene. " "Ruth Koleva is Singer of the Year by BG Radio and Woman of the Year of Gracia Magazine. She is the first Bulgarian artist to be awarded the "Best Jazz Singer" Award by Radio Inter FM in Japan in 2015..."
This looks pretty good.
3 [4]
Ruth Koleva is on a major European tour 16.04.2018 " the start is on April 22, when Ruth will sing in the popular London club "Hoxton Underbelly" and that is the biggest tour of a Bulgarian performer in her genre." This is promotion of an upcoming tour, does not demonstrate notability.
4 [5]
"This site can’t be reached"
Works perfectly fine on my side. Try using Google Cache. Click It's also archived on the Wayback Machine, but currently they're having server issues. 14:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Ruth Koleva - a step from Grammy 04 November 2018 10:58
"Her album was selected among the 12,000 released during the year"
"Ruth Koleva's album is a step away from the Grammy Awards."
"My Album" Confidence. Truth "came out in Bulgaria last year and went international in April through an American label. He was approved to be nominated for a Grammy nomination, "Ruth Koleva told the Writer."
My hardline source-analysis-for-Wikipedia-notability could say "This is an interview, promotion, not independent, does not demonstrate notability", but I do agree with User:SportingFlyer that the subject looks easily notable. I guess that you are just providing a poor selection of sources. Again, WP:THREE, which should be the rule for recreating previously AfD deleted topics. I think you could easily make an article better than your other articles Alisia (singer) and Malina (Bulgarian singer) but I have to say that these are directory style information only, they contain an excessive number of promotional external links, and I would likely !vote "delete" at AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 02:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC) reply
5 [6]
Ruth Koleva and the Sofia Philharmonic with a gala concert on 24 May on bTV. Watch from 23 o'clock. 20 may 2015
This is promotion.
6 [7]
"Confidence. Ruth Koleva's Truth - an album born on the path of her growing as an artist and a man" 13.11.2017 Tanya Ivanova
This is promotion of an upcoming event. "On November 16 Ruth Koleva will present Confidence. Truth in Bulgaria Hall. This will be her second concert there after 2015, which overcame the hall. Now, Ruth promises an even bigger show - like actors, sound, visuals and lighting. "In this concert we are dealing with three different elements, such as jazz, folklore and classics." - tells the vocalist who will appear on stage with her group," The source is he vocalist, not independent, does not satisfy the WP:GNG, not useful for attesting notability.
Sources that amount to promotion of an upcoming event are not sources that demonstrate notability, they are almost certainly agent publicity. Can you find reviews written after the event?
Promotional material, whether press releases on her website, or cleverly placed advertising on local high-profile medias, cannot be used to demonstrate notability. #2 shows promise. #1 fails and caused me not to take you seriously. #4 can't be reached. The rest fail on analysis. Do you speak Bulgarian? Why don't you improve bg:Рут Колева? When I translated that, I found something that I would nominate at AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 05:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Different languages have different notability standards, and it's clear to me doing a search in Bulgarian she passes WP:GNG. For instance, the first source isn't really sigcov, but winning a Bulgarian Radio award almost certainly passes WP:SINGER #8. Plus, there's a lot of other coverage not presented here - for instance, she's enough of a name in Bulgaria that she's a first name opinion on political issues. See [8]. SportingFlyer T· C 07:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
Is it a “major music award”? If it is, then why does it have no mention anywhere in mainspace. I still recommend improving the Bulgarian article first. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 08:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The fact the Bulgarian article may be promotional has absolutely nothing to do with English WP:GNG. Searching БГ РАДИО brings up a number of Bulgarian articles discussing the nominees and winners from what appear to be reliable Bulgarian websites, not just about Ms. Koleva. SportingFlyer T· C 08:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
If User:Quickfingers is fluent in Bulgarian, and noting the subject and all sources are Bulgarian, I recommend he improve the Bulgarian article first. I think it is the easiest way forward. Alternatively, he may choose to write a draft to flesh out minimal material from these sources, but people like me will look to the native language article, and it may spoil the assessment. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 11:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC) reply
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_June_10&oldid=1039550265"

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