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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. Falsely labeling the work as a self-published reference and deleting it is an abuse of Wikipedia's own guidelines. The articles contain information published nowhere else. They were influenced by the main AVL page. The fact that some of the information is published at I++ is quite irrelevant. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Nowhere in WP:NOTREPOSITORY does it mention source code - that seems to be your creation Erik. You seem to be banning source code in Wikipedia. Wikipedia has syntax highlighting for a purpose I assume. The similarity between the text of the 4 pages is entirely intentional. Clearly the language and source code sharply differentiates the pages. I don't see why multiple pages in different languages shouldn't be included. You are treating the algorithm like any other algorithm, but my view is that it is the most important algorithm in computer science (finite mathematics). Clearly the AVL Theorem deserves the coverage it is given in the 4 pages. You appear to be making the rules up as you go. Does it say anywhere in the rules that multiple pages on similar topics are not permitted? What is your reasoning behind objecting to multiple pages in different languages for the AVL Theory. Exactly what are you objecting to? NNcNannara ( talk) 01:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC) You say that it is absurd that NOR could be used in this case, but that is the very reason that was given in the argument to delete the pages. There was also talk of the pages being a fork of the original page, but I argued that that was equally absurd. Now you are saying 'self published' but I am disagreeing. Then you have jumped to the statement that multiple pages are not permitted. This discussion is all over the place. NNcNannara ( talk) 01:27, 7 February 2017 (UTC) Thus far, you have not provided any reasonable argument for deleting the pages. I assume that you will restore them, and then I will restore the link to them from the main page. The decision to delete them in the first place may have been unanimous, but the reason seems to be oscillating (at the moment) between banning software altogether or banning multiple language pages - both of which are absurd. There is no safety in numbers (re unanimous) your lack of reasons to delete the pages has been exposed. If they remain deleted, I can only assume Wikipedia is just plain evil, right Jimmy?
WP:NOTREPOSITORY should not be used to ban the main theorem of programming - AVL Trees. This code is like no other - it is of earth shattering importance, just like say "The Fundamental Theorem of Calculus". If this is the only code you include, you would certainly include it. The code is highly structured and represents the proof of a theorem rather than like normal code. It was, after all, invented by Mathematicians. If you include mathematics, then certainly you would include some code - the code more like theorems - and AVL is the most important theorem in computer science. The only way to properly describe AVL Trees is with code. Your current page fails to adequately describe AVL. It presents a few incorrect definitions (like an incorrect definition of balance factor) and not much else. It is skeletal in the extreme and doesn't really attempt to do the job. Wikipedia needs the upgrade. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC) On your comment about Haskall, you seem to fail to realize that Java, C#, Native C++ and Managed C++ probably account for 90% of the market. These 4 sources are of staggering importance, far more important than a discussion about Haskall, which is a little known language. I don't know where you are going with that comment, but the sources presented to you are very important and you should pay them due respect. You talk about other scholarly articles, but I could unload the entire theory of Pure Calculus on you. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC) As far as you know AVL Trees are not noteworthy or interesting - is that right? NNcNannara ( talk) 07:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I am not suggesting that Wikipedia become a repository of code like GitHub. However, we are talking about the main theorem of computer science (finite mathematics) - and of course it must be included. What other code you include is up to you. For example, you could include a couple of pages on the non-recursive merge sort (see Kruse). However, in Calculus, lists are sorted using AVL - so even the good old non-recursive merge sort falls to the AVL Theorem. I have banished it to be forgotten (all other list sorts included). I regard Red/Black Trees, B Trees and B+ Trees all to be rubbish. AVL takes them all out. So AVL is the bulk of the entire shooting match. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:59, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The arguments for deletion are not strong at all - they have been totally smashed - hello, can you read? You say that no other outcome is possible - that's just bullshit - you are attempting to coerce the decision by ignoring the arguments put forward. It is running a hearing by ignoring the evidence and defense - the outcome is fixed - "No other outcome was possible". It is rigged - is that what you are saying? NNcNannara ( talk) So you want to reject education by consensus - I'd say you are dumb arses - unworthy of the beautiful works which you seek to reject. NNcNannara ( talk) 13:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I note that not one person has made a positive comment about the pages. It has all been negative shit. The situation is really quite pathetic. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I sweated blood to create the code over a 30 year period. You bludgers haven't even got the gumption to fight to keep it. In fact you are fighting to remove it. It stinks. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:08, 7 February 2017 (UTC) Writing the pages was a real pleasure that has been soured by the actions of you drones - educating humanity is more trouble than its worth it seems - it may be impossible due to massive IQ reduction. All your programmers are like Mathematicians who don't know Calculus - they are just incompetent drones. I am trying to recover the situation, and you, the evil influence, are trying to screw the world up on a continuing basis. Who is the next drone that is going to put their hand up for being evil. You desperately need to come up with some new excuses, the existing excuses have been comprehensively demolished. You have been reduced to blindly stating that "No other outcome was possible". Your response to AVL Source code has been to use WP:NOTREPOSITORY to ban all source code on Wikipedia. That's just destroying the utility of Wikipedia to programmers. You can go ahead and do this and I'll just laugh at you. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The 'bar' required for multiple standalone articles is in your words, "Standalone articles require multiple, independent, high quality sources talking about the subject in significant depth". The 4 AVL Wikies are exactly multiple, independent, high quality 'sources' talking about the subject in significant depth. Your very words describe the pages perfectly. Clearly they fit Wikipedia's requirements. This leaves you with WP:NOTREPOSITORY - which, given the nature of AVL, implies a total ban on all source code (may as well forget about syntax highlighting eh). So are you going to ban all source code so as the remain incompetent - and that's supposed to be a potent display of your intelligence. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that the sheep are so nasty that they actually deserve STL (i.e. red/black trees). Stick it to the IQ stinkers right Bjarne. NNcNannara ( talk) 15:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The simple fact of the matter is that there are radically different programming languages that may be used to express the same basic concept. If you wish to cover the bulk of the market then you will need to select at least the 4 chosen languages. Each language has a different approach and different features (as already described). As already discussed, there are a number of options but the code is so large as to require separate pages. How do you intend to handle code from different languages? At least I have made a fist of it - that's a whole lot more than the current lame approach. You have merely winged about separate pages. The code is so refined that maintenance is not an issue - the correct proof of the AVL Theorem has been supplied in each case. Why pick just one language and discriminate against the others? I disagree with you that you can just 'pick a language' and that's it. Only a non-programmer (or an incompetent one) would say such a thing. The more languages you cover the better, but I have covered the main 4. Pseudo code is procedural and outdated. The articles are a nice mixture of explanation, diagrams and code. You are whinging and whining without giving any thought to how to present the topic. If you focused on the presentation instead of whinging about the size of the code you would see that there is little choice but to do what has already been done. The presentations are near perfect (only the diagrams could be improved). You have already outlined the criteria for having multiple pages on the same topic. As I have pointed out (twice), the code is a perfect fit for your description. You have whinged again about the same thing without giving proper consideration to the fact that it is done and dusted as a topic (you lost). I don't accept that proving the AVL Theorem implies that you are a code repository - that's just nonsense. There is your rebuttal. You even tried to preempt the rebuttal by saying there is none, which is inane. NNcNannara ( talk) 00:09, 8 February 2017 (UTC) Note that the alternative to having code in the presentation is to have none. This is your current position. Having no code to discuss AVL is essentially giving up the ghost - which is what you are currently doing. When I tried to remedy the situation you have thrown a hord of whingers at me who are scratching around trying to look for an excuse to screw it all up. Not a repository, no original research, no self-published works, no multiple pages - any pathetic excuse you can come up with. As I said before, the original objection was WP:NOR and that was your best option -for, in fact, rotations with parents are original, node swapping is original and so on. However you have since moved on from WP:NOR - even calling it absurd. Your next approach was a fork of the main page - which went down. Earlier yesterday, you claimed it was no self-published works. You promptly deleted that (probably realizing that it was ridiculous) and replaced it with not a repository and no multiple pages. The multiple pages thing went down courtesy of your own description. That leaves us with not a repository. If the only code you had in Wikipedia is the AVL Theorem - well, at least you've got the important one. 2000 lines of code doesn't make Wikipedia a repository and anyone who suggests it does just doesn't understand code and repositories. Basically, you are talking nonsense here. That leaves you with diddly squat to go on. The prosecution is down, the defense won. All that remains is to see if you take any notice whatsoever of your 'quasi-legal' structures. None of you have provided any comments about the code or explanations. While you whinge about the volume of code consider this: that code took 30 years to create, the final Wiki page (the C# one) took 10 minutes. Code is much harder than written text. Instead of criticizing the volume it takes to prove the AVL Theorem, you should be marveling at it in the various languages. It seems that none of you whingers actually understand and appreciate the AVL Theory; otherwise, you would be profusely thanking me. I have given you the gift of knowledge and all you have done is look the gift horse in the mouth. The whole situation really stinks. NNcNannara ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. Falsely labeling the work as a self-published reference and deleting it is an abuse of Wikipedia's own guidelines. The articles contain information published nowhere else. They were influenced by the main AVL page. The fact that some of the information is published at I++ is quite irrelevant. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Nowhere in WP:NOTREPOSITORY does it mention source code - that seems to be your creation Erik. You seem to be banning source code in Wikipedia. Wikipedia has syntax highlighting for a purpose I assume. The similarity between the text of the 4 pages is entirely intentional. Clearly the language and source code sharply differentiates the pages. I don't see why multiple pages in different languages shouldn't be included. You are treating the algorithm like any other algorithm, but my view is that it is the most important algorithm in computer science (finite mathematics). Clearly the AVL Theorem deserves the coverage it is given in the 4 pages. You appear to be making the rules up as you go. Does it say anywhere in the rules that multiple pages on similar topics are not permitted? What is your reasoning behind objecting to multiple pages in different languages for the AVL Theory. Exactly what are you objecting to? NNcNannara ( talk) 01:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC) You say that it is absurd that NOR could be used in this case, but that is the very reason that was given in the argument to delete the pages. There was also talk of the pages being a fork of the original page, but I argued that that was equally absurd. Now you are saying 'self published' but I am disagreeing. Then you have jumped to the statement that multiple pages are not permitted. This discussion is all over the place. NNcNannara ( talk) 01:27, 7 February 2017 (UTC) Thus far, you have not provided any reasonable argument for deleting the pages. I assume that you will restore them, and then I will restore the link to them from the main page. The decision to delete them in the first place may have been unanimous, but the reason seems to be oscillating (at the moment) between banning software altogether or banning multiple language pages - both of which are absurd. There is no safety in numbers (re unanimous) your lack of reasons to delete the pages has been exposed. If they remain deleted, I can only assume Wikipedia is just plain evil, right Jimmy?
WP:NOTREPOSITORY should not be used to ban the main theorem of programming - AVL Trees. This code is like no other - it is of earth shattering importance, just like say "The Fundamental Theorem of Calculus". If this is the only code you include, you would certainly include it. The code is highly structured and represents the proof of a theorem rather than like normal code. It was, after all, invented by Mathematicians. If you include mathematics, then certainly you would include some code - the code more like theorems - and AVL is the most important theorem in computer science. The only way to properly describe AVL Trees is with code. Your current page fails to adequately describe AVL. It presents a few incorrect definitions (like an incorrect definition of balance factor) and not much else. It is skeletal in the extreme and doesn't really attempt to do the job. Wikipedia needs the upgrade. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC) On your comment about Haskall, you seem to fail to realize that Java, C#, Native C++ and Managed C++ probably account for 90% of the market. These 4 sources are of staggering importance, far more important than a discussion about Haskall, which is a little known language. I don't know where you are going with that comment, but the sources presented to you are very important and you should pay them due respect. You talk about other scholarly articles, but I could unload the entire theory of Pure Calculus on you. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC) As far as you know AVL Trees are not noteworthy or interesting - is that right? NNcNannara ( talk) 07:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I am not suggesting that Wikipedia become a repository of code like GitHub. However, we are talking about the main theorem of computer science (finite mathematics) - and of course it must be included. What other code you include is up to you. For example, you could include a couple of pages on the non-recursive merge sort (see Kruse). However, in Calculus, lists are sorted using AVL - so even the good old non-recursive merge sort falls to the AVL Theorem. I have banished it to be forgotten (all other list sorts included). I regard Red/Black Trees, B Trees and B+ Trees all to be rubbish. AVL takes them all out. So AVL is the bulk of the entire shooting match. NNcNannara ( talk) 07:59, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The arguments for deletion are not strong at all - they have been totally smashed - hello, can you read? You say that no other outcome is possible - that's just bullshit - you are attempting to coerce the decision by ignoring the arguments put forward. It is running a hearing by ignoring the evidence and defense - the outcome is fixed - "No other outcome was possible". It is rigged - is that what you are saying? NNcNannara ( talk) So you want to reject education by consensus - I'd say you are dumb arses - unworthy of the beautiful works which you seek to reject. NNcNannara ( talk) 13:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I note that not one person has made a positive comment about the pages. It has all been negative shit. The situation is really quite pathetic. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC) I sweated blood to create the code over a 30 year period. You bludgers haven't even got the gumption to fight to keep it. In fact you are fighting to remove it. It stinks. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:08, 7 February 2017 (UTC) Writing the pages was a real pleasure that has been soured by the actions of you drones - educating humanity is more trouble than its worth it seems - it may be impossible due to massive IQ reduction. All your programmers are like Mathematicians who don't know Calculus - they are just incompetent drones. I am trying to recover the situation, and you, the evil influence, are trying to screw the world up on a continuing basis. Who is the next drone that is going to put their hand up for being evil. You desperately need to come up with some new excuses, the existing excuses have been comprehensively demolished. You have been reduced to blindly stating that "No other outcome was possible". Your response to AVL Source code has been to use WP:NOTREPOSITORY to ban all source code on Wikipedia. That's just destroying the utility of Wikipedia to programmers. You can go ahead and do this and I'll just laugh at you. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The 'bar' required for multiple standalone articles is in your words, "Standalone articles require multiple, independent, high quality sources talking about the subject in significant depth". The 4 AVL Wikies are exactly multiple, independent, high quality 'sources' talking about the subject in significant depth. Your very words describe the pages perfectly. Clearly they fit Wikipedia's requirements. This leaves you with WP:NOTREPOSITORY - which, given the nature of AVL, implies a total ban on all source code (may as well forget about syntax highlighting eh). So are you going to ban all source code so as the remain incompetent - and that's supposed to be a potent display of your intelligence. NNcNannara ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that the sheep are so nasty that they actually deserve STL (i.e. red/black trees). Stick it to the IQ stinkers right Bjarne. NNcNannara ( talk) 15:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The simple fact of the matter is that there are radically different programming languages that may be used to express the same basic concept. If you wish to cover the bulk of the market then you will need to select at least the 4 chosen languages. Each language has a different approach and different features (as already described). As already discussed, there are a number of options but the code is so large as to require separate pages. How do you intend to handle code from different languages? At least I have made a fist of it - that's a whole lot more than the current lame approach. You have merely winged about separate pages. The code is so refined that maintenance is not an issue - the correct proof of the AVL Theorem has been supplied in each case. Why pick just one language and discriminate against the others? I disagree with you that you can just 'pick a language' and that's it. Only a non-programmer (or an incompetent one) would say such a thing. The more languages you cover the better, but I have covered the main 4. Pseudo code is procedural and outdated. The articles are a nice mixture of explanation, diagrams and code. You are whinging and whining without giving any thought to how to present the topic. If you focused on the presentation instead of whinging about the size of the code you would see that there is little choice but to do what has already been done. The presentations are near perfect (only the diagrams could be improved). You have already outlined the criteria for having multiple pages on the same topic. As I have pointed out (twice), the code is a perfect fit for your description. You have whinged again about the same thing without giving proper consideration to the fact that it is done and dusted as a topic (you lost). I don't accept that proving the AVL Theorem implies that you are a code repository - that's just nonsense. There is your rebuttal. You even tried to preempt the rebuttal by saying there is none, which is inane. NNcNannara ( talk) 00:09, 8 February 2017 (UTC) Note that the alternative to having code in the presentation is to have none. This is your current position. Having no code to discuss AVL is essentially giving up the ghost - which is what you are currently doing. When I tried to remedy the situation you have thrown a hord of whingers at me who are scratching around trying to look for an excuse to screw it all up. Not a repository, no original research, no self-published works, no multiple pages - any pathetic excuse you can come up with. As I said before, the original objection was WP:NOR and that was your best option -for, in fact, rotations with parents are original, node swapping is original and so on. However you have since moved on from WP:NOR - even calling it absurd. Your next approach was a fork of the main page - which went down. Earlier yesterday, you claimed it was no self-published works. You promptly deleted that (probably realizing that it was ridiculous) and replaced it with not a repository and no multiple pages. The multiple pages thing went down courtesy of your own description. That leaves us with not a repository. If the only code you had in Wikipedia is the AVL Theorem - well, at least you've got the important one. 2000 lines of code doesn't make Wikipedia a repository and anyone who suggests it does just doesn't understand code and repositories. Basically, you are talking nonsense here. That leaves you with diddly squat to go on. The prosecution is down, the defense won. All that remains is to see if you take any notice whatsoever of your 'quasi-legal' structures. None of you have provided any comments about the code or explanations. While you whinge about the volume of code consider this: that code took 30 years to create, the final Wiki page (the C# one) took 10 minutes. Code is much harder than written text. Instead of criticizing the volume it takes to prove the AVL Theorem, you should be marveling at it in the various languages. It seems that none of you whingers actually understand and appreciate the AVL Theory; otherwise, you would be profusely thanking me. I have given you the gift of knowledge and all you have done is look the gift horse in the mouth. The whole situation really stinks. NNcNannara ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page is not a self-published reference. It is a major theorem of computer science that is now more than 55 years old. It is not unreferenced as was claimed; rather, it is referenced by Doklady and Robert L. Kruse. NNcNannara ( talk) 22:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |