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23 July 2014

  • William Tomicki – Deletion endorsed. To the extent people express a clear opinion, it is to endorse the closure. Many note that the article might be restored if better sourcing to establish notability is provided in a userspace draft that is less focused on vanity content. –  Sandstein  12:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
William Tomicki ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

The Keep votes, based on WP:CREATIVE, were discounted by the closer because "you can't use reviews of the magazine as proof HE is notable, via WP:INHERITED". INHERITED is an essay without consensus outside policy and guideline framework. The point of the Keep vote rationales was to show that the magazine (solely written by William Tomicki) is notable, which then confers notability on the creator of the work, per CREATIVE. This is done all the time, for example book reviews confer notability on the author. Notability of a creative profession is based on their works. Both Keeps and Deletes provided reasonable rationales in this case -- except for the Delete vote by MiracleMat should be given less weight since there is no rule that a person can't create an article about themselves (and notably William Tomicki ID'd himself and refrained from participating in the AfD). That leaves three good reasons to delete, and three good reasons to Keep. Both sides correctly invoked the guidelines. Green C 14:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply

Notify participants: @ DGG:@ MiracleMat:@ Dream Focus:@ Clarityfiend:@ Greglocock:@ JTdale:@ Trackinfo: -- Green C 14:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply

  • My opining about the close afterwards isn't the same as my official close, so you seem to be misrepresenting the close, which consisted of "The result was delete. Looking at the keep votes, I'm not moved my numbers of subscribers nor number of casual mentions nor comparisons to other similar articles. WP:GNG is about sourcing and significant coverage and there is no indication this criteria has been met. As for salting, I don't see sufficient cause at this time." Dennis Brown |  2¢ |  WER 14:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • We get random outcomes in AFD depending on the personal opinions of the closer. Sometimes people saying something passes a subject specific guideline is enough to keep the article, and sometimes they ignore the subject specific guidelines entirely as though they didn't exist or matter, and only focus on the general notability guideline. WP:NOTABILITY clearly states A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. You can pass either one, you don't have to pass both. Dream Focus 14:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • "Presumed" means "presumed" -- it does not imply that we necessarily will have an article. The presumption can be rebutted by showing that the purported material does not meet other requirements, including that the article basically not be used for promotional purposes. Many autobiographies are indeed used for promotional purposes--I do not presume that every one of them is, but I take it as grounds for reasonable suspicion. If the involvement of the subject continues to the extent that we cannot have a NPOV article, then unless there is actually public significance, there should be no article. NOT WHO'S WHO. I and most of the other people there reached this conclusion. Basically, excluding promotion from the encyclopedia is more important than borderline questions of notability: unless we exclude promotionalism, we're not an encyclopedia but a vanity publication or a medium for advertisements. No one comes to an en enccylopedia to see what people have to say about themselves--they go to their web pages, which is where such material belongs. DGG ( talk ) 19:17, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
    • All of DGG (the NOM)'s complaints continue to take the giant hammer of deletion to solve the fly of editing portions of the content. As I said at the time the subject of the article was "giving up" in frustration during the debate, I said the article itself should stand on its merits whether or not the subject agrees to its content. Any article should consist of what we know about the subject, not what they wish to say about themselves. OK I tend to look at the slippery slope. What if Adolph Hitler didn't like the story we told about him and said to delete his article? Would we listen to him at all? Would we manipulate our content to fit his view of events? Of course not. And so far in current events we are trying to expel the Russian propaganda view of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17‎. This process is called editing. We are called editors. So use your editing skills to remove those things that you think are self-sourced and self-promotional and give other editors the chance to verify or work around what you have done. That is the collegial nature of wikipedia. And all of that gets completely wiped out by deletion. Now, no other editors will have the chance to come by and make the article better. My point is, this article might be borderline as it existed. It was in need of further editing. It certainly was not fraud, not purely self-promotional and shouldn't have been a candidate for deletion. Trackinfo ( talk) 21:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
      • Are you really so crass that you are going to break Godwin's law and throw it onto DGG? Are you really that ignorant? And you want to compare this fluffy biography to the death of almost 300 people in a horrific military blunder? Do you simply lack any sense of proportion or common decency? Dennis Brown |  2¢ |  WER 21:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Without having seen the article, it sounds like it was bloated with unsuitably promotional content, overly influenced by non-independent sources. Anything financially connected to the person or his company, publications or promoters is non-independent. Such sourced may be used to source primary source content, but should not form the basis of an article. If there is independent coverage of this person or his company, then I suspect it is best that a fresh article be drafted, based on the independent sources. Leaning "Endorse, encourage userspace drafting of a better attempt using independent sourcing". Would appreciate temporary undeletion. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 01:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Since no one has done so yet I put a copy online here. [3] It may be slightly different from the last version deleted but mostly the same. Sources include The New York Times, Sun Sentinel, SF Gate, SBEntrepreneur, Santa Barbara Independent, Chicago Tribune, and others. -- Green C 02:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Unless it was written entirely by Green Cardamom, this copy at User:Green Cardamom/William Tomicki violates WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Reusing deleted material. Restoring under a {{ TempUndelete}} is strongly preferred. Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC) reply
In an article of contested notability, the opening sentence or two should assert the reason for notability (it does), with references to independent secondary sources that cover the subject directly. The first two sentences have six references. Good, but:
  • References 1-3 are just name-drops. The referenced articles are not about this person.
  • Reference 4 is promotional, and for that reason is excluded as evidence of notability
  • Reference 5 is OK, but as it is about a single isolated event, is not much on its own.
  • Reference 6 is like 1-3.
Padding the reference list at the bottom, sourcing specific facts, doesn't help in establishing notability. Lead with the strongest, independent, secondary source references that cover the subject directly.
Are these references new since the AfD. If not, then you need more. If yes, while I am not so impressed as explained above, the article may be entitle to another pass through AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 03:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The reason he is notable is because of WP:CREATIVE #3 ("The person has created a work.. that has been the subject of .. multiple independent periodical reviews or articles") - for the newsletter not the person. This per the Keep !votes in the AfD. It is the crux of this DRV, the closing admin confuses the work with the person, as you said "The referenced articles are not about this person" - correct, they need to be about the work. That's how CREATIVE works. Also arguably refs #1-3 are forms of reviews or articles about the work, it doesn't have to be a devoted article or a lengthy article. -- Green C 03:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
If you selectively read the page on which WP:CREATIVE is a section, then it may appear that meeting that criteria is an unquestionable indication of notability. If however you widen it and read the "Additional Criteria" into, of which that's a subsection and is says stuff like "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. ..." "meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.", contrasted to the Basic Criteria defined on that page (which is essentially the GNG), where there is the stronger presumption of notability. DRV has long read the secondary criteria as subordinate to the GNG and an indication that sources may exist, when challenged sources about the subject are required. -- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 06:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
It's not "unquestionable" notability... WP:NOTE says: A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. This was likely a No Consensus: 3 Deletes based on GNG, and 3 Keeps based on the Subject Specific Criteria (and 1 delete based on nothing). -- Green C 13:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Endorse as DRV is not a venue to continue arguing the merits of the original article, only to review the close. Here, the closer was correct in discounting the weak keep votes, that's all there is to it. Work on a copy in user-space, try resubmitting in the future. Tarc ( talk) 14:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Are Subject Specific Criteria arguments "weak"? WP:NOTABILITY clearly states: A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. SSC are equally valid as GNG arguments. There were 3 GNG votes vs. 3 SSC votes. You don't think that is a No Consensus? -- Green C 14:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Obviously I do not think that, if I endorsed the deletion finding. Learn to accept that editors can disagree with others' findings and still be acting in good faith. That's the fundamental flaw in your DRV filing; it rests solely on "I disagree". Also, peruse Wikipedia:BLUDGEON at some point, before you decide to respond to each and every endorse comment in this discussion going forward. Tarc ( talk) 23:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Oh man Tarc, I've been at this too long to "learn" that others sometimes disagree. My question was an honest one, the DRV is based on legitimate guidelines not just "I disagree". I was trying to understand your endorsement within the framework of the guidelines. You don't have to say, you don't even have to agree with the guidelines, your endorsement still carries. -- Green C 04:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Endorse. Reasonable close. Someone above rightly points out that the key words in WP:NOTABILITY are presumed to merit an article. Meeting the letter of a notability guideline establishes a presumption of notability, but not a guarantee. It was correct to ignore the subject specific guideline, even if its letter was met, once it became apparent that the only claim to notability on that front was the travel newsletter. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
We don't discriminate because someone is a travel newsletter writer. There are notable travel newsletter writers. -- Green C
  • Hmmmmm. We have articles on people who're far less noteworthy than Mr Tomicki, who's had an eventful life that amounts to quite a lot more than just writing a travel newsletter. On reviewing the sources, I can't help thinking there's an article there to be written. The "delete" outcome here strikes me as a little harsh but it was probably within discretion, and I conclude that although there's very arguably a reasonable basis for an article, the community doesn't want this article. I would hope to see that become a bluelink in due course.— S Marshall T/ C 23:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2014_July_23&oldid=1084317717"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< 2014 July 22
2014 July 24 >

23 July 2014

  • William Tomicki – Deletion endorsed. To the extent people express a clear opinion, it is to endorse the closure. Many note that the article might be restored if better sourcing to establish notability is provided in a userspace draft that is less focused on vanity content. –  Sandstein  12:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
William Tomicki ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

The Keep votes, based on WP:CREATIVE, were discounted by the closer because "you can't use reviews of the magazine as proof HE is notable, via WP:INHERITED". INHERITED is an essay without consensus outside policy and guideline framework. The point of the Keep vote rationales was to show that the magazine (solely written by William Tomicki) is notable, which then confers notability on the creator of the work, per CREATIVE. This is done all the time, for example book reviews confer notability on the author. Notability of a creative profession is based on their works. Both Keeps and Deletes provided reasonable rationales in this case -- except for the Delete vote by MiracleMat should be given less weight since there is no rule that a person can't create an article about themselves (and notably William Tomicki ID'd himself and refrained from participating in the AfD). That leaves three good reasons to delete, and three good reasons to Keep. Both sides correctly invoked the guidelines. Green C 14:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply

Notify participants: @ DGG:@ MiracleMat:@ Dream Focus:@ Clarityfiend:@ Greglocock:@ JTdale:@ Trackinfo: -- Green C 14:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply

  • My opining about the close afterwards isn't the same as my official close, so you seem to be misrepresenting the close, which consisted of "The result was delete. Looking at the keep votes, I'm not moved my numbers of subscribers nor number of casual mentions nor comparisons to other similar articles. WP:GNG is about sourcing and significant coverage and there is no indication this criteria has been met. As for salting, I don't see sufficient cause at this time." Dennis Brown |  2¢ |  WER 14:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • We get random outcomes in AFD depending on the personal opinions of the closer. Sometimes people saying something passes a subject specific guideline is enough to keep the article, and sometimes they ignore the subject specific guidelines entirely as though they didn't exist or matter, and only focus on the general notability guideline. WP:NOTABILITY clearly states A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. You can pass either one, you don't have to pass both. Dream Focus 14:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • "Presumed" means "presumed" -- it does not imply that we necessarily will have an article. The presumption can be rebutted by showing that the purported material does not meet other requirements, including that the article basically not be used for promotional purposes. Many autobiographies are indeed used for promotional purposes--I do not presume that every one of them is, but I take it as grounds for reasonable suspicion. If the involvement of the subject continues to the extent that we cannot have a NPOV article, then unless there is actually public significance, there should be no article. NOT WHO'S WHO. I and most of the other people there reached this conclusion. Basically, excluding promotion from the encyclopedia is more important than borderline questions of notability: unless we exclude promotionalism, we're not an encyclopedia but a vanity publication or a medium for advertisements. No one comes to an en enccylopedia to see what people have to say about themselves--they go to their web pages, which is where such material belongs. DGG ( talk ) 19:17, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
    • All of DGG (the NOM)'s complaints continue to take the giant hammer of deletion to solve the fly of editing portions of the content. As I said at the time the subject of the article was "giving up" in frustration during the debate, I said the article itself should stand on its merits whether or not the subject agrees to its content. Any article should consist of what we know about the subject, not what they wish to say about themselves. OK I tend to look at the slippery slope. What if Adolph Hitler didn't like the story we told about him and said to delete his article? Would we listen to him at all? Would we manipulate our content to fit his view of events? Of course not. And so far in current events we are trying to expel the Russian propaganda view of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17‎. This process is called editing. We are called editors. So use your editing skills to remove those things that you think are self-sourced and self-promotional and give other editors the chance to verify or work around what you have done. That is the collegial nature of wikipedia. And all of that gets completely wiped out by deletion. Now, no other editors will have the chance to come by and make the article better. My point is, this article might be borderline as it existed. It was in need of further editing. It certainly was not fraud, not purely self-promotional and shouldn't have been a candidate for deletion. Trackinfo ( talk) 21:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
      • Are you really so crass that you are going to break Godwin's law and throw it onto DGG? Are you really that ignorant? And you want to compare this fluffy biography to the death of almost 300 people in a horrific military blunder? Do you simply lack any sense of proportion or common decency? Dennis Brown |  2¢ |  WER 21:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Without having seen the article, it sounds like it was bloated with unsuitably promotional content, overly influenced by non-independent sources. Anything financially connected to the person or his company, publications or promoters is non-independent. Such sourced may be used to source primary source content, but should not form the basis of an article. If there is independent coverage of this person or his company, then I suspect it is best that a fresh article be drafted, based on the independent sources. Leaning "Endorse, encourage userspace drafting of a better attempt using independent sourcing". Would appreciate temporary undeletion. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 01:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Since no one has done so yet I put a copy online here. [3] It may be slightly different from the last version deleted but mostly the same. Sources include The New York Times, Sun Sentinel, SF Gate, SBEntrepreneur, Santa Barbara Independent, Chicago Tribune, and others. -- Green C 02:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Unless it was written entirely by Green Cardamom, this copy at User:Green Cardamom/William Tomicki violates WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Reusing deleted material. Restoring under a {{ TempUndelete}} is strongly preferred. Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC) reply
In an article of contested notability, the opening sentence or two should assert the reason for notability (it does), with references to independent secondary sources that cover the subject directly. The first two sentences have six references. Good, but:
  • References 1-3 are just name-drops. The referenced articles are not about this person.
  • Reference 4 is promotional, and for that reason is excluded as evidence of notability
  • Reference 5 is OK, but as it is about a single isolated event, is not much on its own.
  • Reference 6 is like 1-3.
Padding the reference list at the bottom, sourcing specific facts, doesn't help in establishing notability. Lead with the strongest, independent, secondary source references that cover the subject directly.
Are these references new since the AfD. If not, then you need more. If yes, while I am not so impressed as explained above, the article may be entitle to another pass through AfD. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 03:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The reason he is notable is because of WP:CREATIVE #3 ("The person has created a work.. that has been the subject of .. multiple independent periodical reviews or articles") - for the newsletter not the person. This per the Keep !votes in the AfD. It is the crux of this DRV, the closing admin confuses the work with the person, as you said "The referenced articles are not about this person" - correct, they need to be about the work. That's how CREATIVE works. Also arguably refs #1-3 are forms of reviews or articles about the work, it doesn't have to be a devoted article or a lengthy article. -- Green C 03:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
If you selectively read the page on which WP:CREATIVE is a section, then it may appear that meeting that criteria is an unquestionable indication of notability. If however you widen it and read the "Additional Criteria" into, of which that's a subsection and is says stuff like "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. ..." "meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.", contrasted to the Basic Criteria defined on that page (which is essentially the GNG), where there is the stronger presumption of notability. DRV has long read the secondary criteria as subordinate to the GNG and an indication that sources may exist, when challenged sources about the subject are required. -- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 06:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
It's not "unquestionable" notability... WP:NOTE says: A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. This was likely a No Consensus: 3 Deletes based on GNG, and 3 Keeps based on the Subject Specific Criteria (and 1 delete based on nothing). -- Green C 13:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Endorse as DRV is not a venue to continue arguing the merits of the original article, only to review the close. Here, the closer was correct in discounting the weak keep votes, that's all there is to it. Work on a copy in user-space, try resubmitting in the future. Tarc ( talk) 14:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Are Subject Specific Criteria arguments "weak"? WP:NOTABILITY clearly states: A topic is presumed to merit an article if It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. SSC are equally valid as GNG arguments. There were 3 GNG votes vs. 3 SSC votes. You don't think that is a No Consensus? -- Green C 14:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Obviously I do not think that, if I endorsed the deletion finding. Learn to accept that editors can disagree with others' findings and still be acting in good faith. That's the fundamental flaw in your DRV filing; it rests solely on "I disagree". Also, peruse Wikipedia:BLUDGEON at some point, before you decide to respond to each and every endorse comment in this discussion going forward. Tarc ( talk) 23:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
Oh man Tarc, I've been at this too long to "learn" that others sometimes disagree. My question was an honest one, the DRV is based on legitimate guidelines not just "I disagree". I was trying to understand your endorsement within the framework of the guidelines. You don't have to say, you don't even have to agree with the guidelines, your endorsement still carries. -- Green C 04:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Endorse. Reasonable close. Someone above rightly points out that the key words in WP:NOTABILITY are presumed to merit an article. Meeting the letter of a notability guideline establishes a presumption of notability, but not a guarantee. It was correct to ignore the subject specific guideline, even if its letter was met, once it became apparent that the only claim to notability on that front was the travel newsletter. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
We don't discriminate because someone is a travel newsletter writer. There are notable travel newsletter writers. -- Green C
  • Hmmmmm. We have articles on people who're far less noteworthy than Mr Tomicki, who's had an eventful life that amounts to quite a lot more than just writing a travel newsletter. On reviewing the sources, I can't help thinking there's an article there to be written. The "delete" outcome here strikes me as a little harsh but it was probably within discretion, and I conclude that although there's very arguably a reasonable basis for an article, the community doesn't want this article. I would hope to see that become a bluelink in due course.— S Marshall T/ C 23:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2014_July_23&oldid=1084317717"

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