Sonnal Thaan Kathala (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( restore | cache | AfD))

Sonnal Thaan Kathala (means in Tamil "is there love only if expressed[?]") was a 2001 movie produced by actor and producer T. Rajendar. This page got deleted because of vandalism by some editors who moved the page to Sonnal Thaan Karadiya . This was done jokingly because some fans fondly call T. Rajendar as Karadi (bear) because of his personality (Just as how Joseph Vijay is called Illayathalapathi, Ajith Kumar called Ultimate Star and Vadivelu called Vagai Puyal). This movie was not a boxoffice hit, but more of a moderate success. Being a flop does not mean that it is not notable. See Heaven's Gate (film) for a spectacular example. I can bet everybody in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka (as well as Tamils all over) know T. Rajendar and Sonnal Thaan Kathala. The movie was noted for its songs and rhymes by T. Rajendar. To check the authencity of this movie, please goto Google and type in "sonnal thaan kathala" and you'll see thousands of matching results. The main reason it got deleted wass because it was moved to the new page (Sonnal thaan karadiya) which is nonsense. Admin should have reverted to the original page, and removed all the vandalism in the page to bring it to its original, factual nature. Does vandalism warrant deletion? Hence I am here to request this page be restored to its factual content. Everybody here may be westerners, so if you don't know which is vandalism, just revert the page to Sonnal Thaan Kathala and restore its history and I will remove the vandalism. I have watched this movie so I know. Your coorperation is anticipated. Thank you. -- 118.100.5.238 ( talk) 17:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• This page was a redirect to Sonnal Thaan Karadiya which was deleted as patent nonsense. I have deleted the broken redirect (for now). Stifle ( talk) 18:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• While the deleted page was not patent nonsense, it had one single name as filling all the roles (actor/director/etc.) and therefore seems very hoaxy. It would be dysfunctional to restore it only to delete it again (at AFD or otherwise) for those reasons, so keep deleted with the understanding that if someone presents solid sources and undertakes to clean the article up, I'm minded to support them. Stifle ( talk) 18:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  Yes, Karadiya as I said above is nonsense, but not the original content! And it is true that T. Rajendar is not only an actor but also director, producer, script writer, singer and even a politician! See [1]. Also see this (shows TR as both producer and music director) and also this, his latest movie Veerasamy, which is fully managed by him. Please believe me. I'm not kidding you. Please ask any Tamil person and he'll tell you the same! You are clearly not knowledgable in this field. As I said some content like Karadi / Kong that is frequently used by his fans and is nonsense, but the movie itself isn't nonsense and should be restored to its genuine form (w/o Karadi / king kong stuff). Please restore the page in its unmolested form. 118.100.5.238 ( talk) 20:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  References please. Stifle ( talk) 09:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  In view of the references included below, I would permit recreation, with anything useful in the history restored, so as to permit Selvaraaj to expand the article. But stop calling people "sir" and "Mr.". It's appreciated, but not necessary :) Stifle ( talk) 09:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment- You wrote "You are clearly not knowledgable in this field" - that's not how things work here. Please provide some references that demonstrate that this film is actually notable. Until then, I endorse delete. AKRadecki ^Speaketh 04:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Hi, I am the same person above (118.100.5.238) and now I've made an account. To start off with, Mr. Stifle doubted that T. Rajendar is everything in this movie (e.g. producer, director, actor etc.) and I have proved it to him it is true. This guy (T. Rajendar) most often than not does everything himself. And this thing is not uncommon in the Tamil film industry (see S. J. Suryah, and his film Anbe Aaruyire). And not to forget the sources I have given above that prove T. Rajendar does everything (e.g. his latest movie Veerasamy). I have provided sources for this movie (Sonnal Thaan Kathala) in my above message. There are even video interviews proving he's a song writer, producer, director and even politician. If you want I can provide it but it's in Tamil. May I ask what further references do you need? If you wanna undertaking I will clean up the vandalism like Karadi / Kong jokes etc. yes, I will do that. But his name will still appear on all the fields (director, producer, etc) because it is the fact.

Moving on, Mr. Radecki asked me to prove that this film is notable. As I said above, please go to Google and type in Sonnal Thaan Kathala and you'll see (to make your work easier, click here: here. And now compare it to this movie Kovil (film) that has an article but is not half as notable. (click here).

What more do you require? Selvaraaj ( talk) 10:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

If anybody sees the cached version, you can see that the only thing that has to be done is by linking the page to the correct Sonnal Thaan Kathala page (not Karadiya) and removing all the words "Karadi" from there (T Karadi Rajendar becomes T Rajendar). I can do that in less than 2 minutes, so why delete it?

And here is another source that this movie was fully made by T. Rajendar:

Chennai Online: Sonnal Thaan Kathala.

The following are more sources to show this movie exists (for those who are not familiar with Kollywood and are skeptical):

Scrol down to Cine Scope: Lavish Home production

State govt awards 2001-02: See under Year 2001, Best Family Film and Best Child Star

reviews by audiences

Songs download 1

Songs download 2

Songs download 3

Songs download 4

For more, just go to Google and key in "Sonnal Thaan Kathala" and you will see.

I really don't want this movie to be deleted because it will jeopardise the List of Tamil-language films project that Tamil wikipedians are working on, so Wikipedia can be a database for all Kollywood films. There are already stubs for thousands of films and not all were mega hits so deleting will only contract this project. Thanks Selvaraaj ( talk) 14:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I strongly recommend you set up your own website if your aim is to create a database for all Kollywood films. Stifle ( talk) 15:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

No sir, not in that context. It would be great if Wikipedia can be an encyclopedia for everything (logical)! JThis movie is a well known, genuine movie. So what is wrong if we have a page on it, just like how we do for other movies? I have provided adequate references to back my claims. What else is needed? Actually even if I make my own website, my primary source would still be Wikipedia. Just like how WP has pages for almost every Bollywood / Hollywood movies, what's wrong with having a page on this one? Kollywood is India's 2nd largest cinema after Bollywood. Please restore this page since it is a genuine movie. Selvaraaj ( talk) 15:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Permit re-creation the awards, though not national awards, are sufficient as a justification for an article. DGG ( talk) 16:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Thanks but please allow access to the history and all I gotta do is undo the vandalised version instead of rewriting the whole article again. And in Indian cinema, there's no national awards specially for Tamil films. This is because each region has its own cinema (See Indian Cinema). Tamil is only the official language for one state in India (Tamil Nadu) so Tamil movies are confined largely only in Tamil Nadu as well as the Tamil speaking diaspora all over the world. It's not like Hollywood where the whole of USA watches because they all speak English. In India, there are different regional languages, some of which are totally different from the other. Hence only Tamil Nadu state government gives specialised awards for Tamil movies, not the central government. So there's nothing better than state awards, other than the NFA that only nominates 1 Tamil (regional) movie per year. I know it sounds complex but that's the diversity of India :) (Just telling you for your knowledge). Cheers. Selvaraaj ( talk) 16:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Restore - The cached version of Sonnal Thaan Kathala is not "G1: Patent nonsense, meaningless, or incomprehensible" [2] and the redirect appears to have been incorrect per the DRV request, so Sonnal Thaan Kathala's deletion as a redirect [3] does not appear to apply. The cached version seems to meet A7 speedy delete, but given the confusion resulting from "editors who moved the page to Sonnal Thaan Karadiya [as a joke]," it seems reasonable to allow editors to add the above award information to the article in an effort to overcome A7 speedy delete. -- Suntag ☼ 16:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Exactly! Selvaraaj ( talk) 17:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• To all reviewers of this topic, please also take your time to read this report that comes at the right time Selvaraaj ( talk) 17:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Overcoming speedy deletion is only a small issue. A bigger one may be regular deletion at WP:AfD. A search of indiatimes.com for Sonnal Thaan Kathala at economictimes does seem to bring up hits. To avoid AfD issues, you should avoid using blogs and websites to rewrite the article. Instead, try limiting the article to material from books and newspapers. The do not have to be in English and non-English sources is probably where the bulk of the material on this topic resides. -- Suntag ☼ 20:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment: Don't forget that speedy deletion is not a bar to an article ever existing at that title. This speedy deletion was correct, but nothing is stopping Selvaraaj (or anyone) from creating a good, serioius, properly-referenced article on the subject. Stifle ( talk) 09:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Mr. Suntag, I never knew when this article was nominated for deletion or else I would have saved it. I only got to know after it was deleted. So I'm doing all I can to rescue it because it is a genuine movie, with genuine awards and notable cast. I put up that specific Economic Times article simply because I came across it and it seemed to hit the nail directly on its head! Other than that you will not find Tamil movie related stuff on Economic Times because it is a business news portal. If ever you find any, it must be for Superhit Tamil movies / Bollywood movies that have a great impact on the economy / industry. For Tamil stuff, you should go to sites like Chennai Online.

The previous version had dubious statements (Karadi etc.), absoulutely no citations and even the plot was incorrect. And that caused its deletion. But I'm sure that when this article was created (first revision), it must have been correct, but later vandalised. So all that should be done is revert to the original version, thats all! And this sort of vandalism is prevelant everywhere in Wikipedia, I have come across it so many times. (once I even saw the India article page vandalised with F*ck words!). Funny thing is when I inserted genuine information few days ago, some people called me a vandal (see my IP contributions above). So does any genuine article deserve to be deleted because of other people's misdeeds?

Mr. Stifle earlier wrote that "if someone presents solid sources and undertakes to clean the article up, I'm minded to support them". I have already provided solid prove that this movie exists and has won state government awards (which is a big thing as it is the highest dedicated awards for Tamil cinema), and also references to prove that TR was the director, producer, song writer, script writer, actor.. (and few more) for this movie, which looked hoaxy to Mr. Stifle. And I have said that I can weed out the vandalism, insert the awards information and bring it back to proper standards within a few minutes. What more is required sir? Selvaraaj ( talk) 11:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC) reply

As for what more is required, a total of five days may need to pass from the 17:30, 14 December 2008 date/time this DRV was opened. Someone should be here after 17:30 (UTC), 20 December 2008, to review this discussion and close it at that time. The best use of time from now until this discussion is closed would be to locate reliable source material and use that material to write in your user space draft content for the article. In regards to the vandalism accusation, I posted a note here. -- Suntag ☼ 19:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Mr. Suntag, I have already left a message on that user's talk page highlighting his mistake and I'm sure he's read and understood it ,so it's over. Lets not cause him anymore trouble for that small mistake of his. But thanks for the initiative.

Coming to this matter, I have given undisputable sources that this movie exists, was duly recognised and awarded by the State of Tamil Nadu Government for 2 different categories, and is acted / produced by a notable actor cum producer (all in one guy), who's even a popular politician in Tamil Nadu! (See this, this, this and also this).

Apart from that I have shown how widely available the song tracks for this movie are online. I have also given comparison to another Tamil film that is not notable, but exists as an article. I have already said I can undo the vandalised versions and insert the relevant links easily and quickly. If you wanna see whow I will repair the page, then give me access to the history page, which is what I am here for. I cannot see what more I can possibly do to uphold the truth. Selvaraaj ( talk) 19:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC) reply

OK Stifle, as you like. It's just that I'm used to calling people with a title :-). And thanks for the support. Again I reiterate my stand that I will undo the vandalism and insert relevant citations. OK since there's mutual understanding between all of us here can we get started? Selvaraaj ( talk) 11:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

This discussion will be closed on or after December 19th by a previously uninvolved administrator. At that time, the consensus will be implemented. Stifle ( talk) 12:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

OK. Anybody else has anything to ask / say? Mr. Alan K. Radecki? Selvaraaj ( talk) 19:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

WOW we got a TR fan here selvaraj!! Whys everyone always pickin on TR?? Lolz. You guys are playing with fire. Do you know the consequences if terror rajendran knows about this? please see this - his reaction to a reporter who asked him ‘why other peoples election campaign is always crowded while yours is not crowded’. I can translate some parts for our friends who don’t know tamil. He says ‘didnt you see the crowd in my campaign in Madurai yesterday? you are trying to suppress, oppress and depress the view of the tamilian. Can you prove i got no crowd?! Prove it! I will prove to you using my camera. I don’t buy my crowd with Rs 100 Biryani. My crowd are true supporters. Who ever who says I got no crowd is a blind idiot’.... and he goes on for another 3 minutes ballistic. Imagine if he knows wiki is deleting all his articles. wiki will be next target lolz. And pls don’t think this guy don’t know English. To you Americans or Europeans, try comparing yourself with the benchmark TR English. Okok. lets be serious. Everybody in Tamilnadu and lanka (because he openly support LTTE) know this joker. He is known in Andhra, karnataka and kerala also. Put all together is larger than USA population. Just google his name or his movie you will know how popular he is.-- Bhostjuck ( talk) 19:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Vanakkam Th. Bhostjuck, no, I am not TR fan. I am like everyone else who laugh at TRs "Vaiko Psycho" kind of dialogue and I saw this movie because the laughter you get is more than even Vivek and Vadivelu put together. But the problem is some people inserted Karadi everywhere and moved the whole page to Sonnal Thaan Karadiya and that caused the whole article to be deleted instead of somebody reverting those edits. The problem is this is a genuine, notable movie with notable producer, director, actor, audio director..(all one man) that even won TN state awards, so there is no reason for it to be deleted. Thats all. This is serious discussion and not time for his funny videos. Thanks. Selvaraaj ( talk) 14:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Overturn. The deleted contents of Sonnal Thaan Karadiya were not patent nonsense, as noted by Suntag above.  Sandstein  20:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Sonnal Thaan Kathala, not Karadiya. Selvaraaj ( talk) 14:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Hi everyone. Now is already December 20. And almost everyone has responded in favour of the article being restored. When will the consensus be derived? Are there anymore clarifications needed? I'll be glad to provide as long as it's within my reach. Selvaraaj ( talk) 16:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Overturn Article was certainly not patent nonsense and cannot see how it meets the speedy criteria. Davewild ( talk) 10:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Deletion strictly opposed! Dear Wiki admins who have misunderstood the point. The article Sonnal Thaan Kathala is an actual Tamil film directed, produced by and starring T. Rajendar, a renowned Tamil film personality. Sonnal Thaan Kathala and that is its original title. Many Wikipedia pages undergo constant vandalism and it is the job of us editors to simply undo the vandalism and restore the article back to its original state. Deleting an encyclopedia article of a validated subject because of consistent vandalism is NOT an option. You can simply not even have an encyclopedia site for that matter. User:Stifle must restore the contents of the article back. You are misunderstanding the article and its point because of your lack of knowledge in the subject matter. Kindly restore the article back to its original state. Thank you. -- இளைய நாயகன் Eelam StyleZ ( talk) 16:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Vanakkam Th. Eelam, this is exactly what I'm trying to say: the admins who deleted it clearly lack knowledge in the subject, but Mr. Radecki above says "that's not how things work here". It's just like an Arab deleting the nude beach article because public nudism is unheard in his country. Similarly, nobody here except native Tamils or other people familiar with the industry would know about TR, his movies and his "one man industry" behaviour. Wikipedia should have a team of administrators from all backgrounds to decide on a whole array of subjects available in Wikipedia, if Wikipedia is to be a global encyclopaedia. And to dear admins, how long more is this discussion to continue before a decision is made? Selvaraaj ( talk) 16:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC) reply

RFSHQ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( restore | cache | AfD)) Really Fun Stuff HeadQuarters (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( restore | cache | AfD))

The RFSHQ page was originally made in 2005 and deleted with good reason. Since then the website had received huge success, gaining an Alexa rank peaking close to 15,000. They were involved with the immensely popular Free Rider 2 Internet game, partners with a video group (Far From Subtle) after they split from a Viacom-owned website who are now one of the most subscribed on YouTube, and not to mention they shot and produced a short film for the Miniclip.com online community. They also released modifications for a computer game Robot Arena 2 that were the most downloaded mods for the game by a large margin. This was an automatic delete which is obscene and I feel that even though the website is closed the tens of thousands of visitors and fans to the former owners' new projects would be very much interested, along with anyone casually passing by their projects online. Please reconsider this deletion, thank you. The people behind RFSHQ today have done much hard work, and they deserve some form of archival for the future to see. Raptor3 ( talk) 10:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Have you looked at WP:WEBSITE, and do you think you can now create an article that fulfils the criteria listed there? It'll probably be via criterion #1, could you give the links for those articles? -- fvw * 10:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• As far as I know the website hasn't been published in any kind of print media, and if it has I haven't read about it. The website's success is mostly "viral" as links to games such as Free Rider and series like BattleBots were passed around frequently. A google search for "rfshq "free rider"" brings up a few thousand results from various places. RFSHQ (and TrackMill) are heavily mentioned and influenced in the Free Rider 2 wiki article as well. If it takes actual print to be considered for notability, then I resign my argument here. Raptor3 ( talk) 10:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Not necessarily print, but some notable third party (CNN, slashdot, that sort of thing). Google hits are a very poor gauge of popularity. -- fvw * 10:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• I wouldn't really know where to look, I am not fresh with social networking websites or much of an avid online news reader, and I doubt that something like CNN or MSNBC would cover an article on something RFSHQ produced. I would say that's a little too underground for their tastes. I've done some poking around right now and there's one link from Wired.com regarding a puzzle game that used to be hosted there. I assumed since the website had nearly broken the 10,000 mark on Alexa that it would be considered as when I checked its previous deletion notice it was because it had a rank of three million. I remember at one point Alexa was used frequently to gauge how popular a site was, and I assumed that its high peak rank and affiliations with notable companies would be enough to warrant an article. Since the website no longer exists and archive.org can only pull up so much before you get too specific a lot of this information isn't readily available anymore; I'm calling from memory myself here but everything should be correct, I was a reader of the website for a few years and active in the forums there for some time. Raptor3 ( talk) 10:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Then I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with keep deleted here, still doesn't meet WP:WEBSITE. -- fvw * 10:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Ah, quite a loss then. "RFS Media Productions" had a Wikipedia page for a few months solely on the fact that they designed and colored some monster trucks for a game that was never produced for Miniclip. It probably would still be around, but they asked for the page to be taken down because they thought being notable only for coloring some trucks was stupid. I personally would consider what they did afterwards to be a lot better than graphics for a Flash game, even if I can't properly cite them all. The "Robot Arena 2" article is full of uncited sources too, most recalled from memories of people like me. Thank you for your time though, Fvw. I appreciate it Raptor3 ( talk) 10:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Here's the aforementioned RFSMP article, unformatted but you can tell how it would have looked: RFS Media Productions -- Raptor3 ( talk) 10:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• See things like what about x or Inclusion is not an indicator of notability, an article existing doesn't mean that the subject is notable within Wikipedia's standards and some may go unnoticed for years, you can probably find much worse examples of articles than that one and some will undoubtedly still exist. Until someone comes across them and nominates them for deletion (or tags them for speedy/prod) there isn't anyone who will magically know it's there and sort it out, that doesn't give a free pass to anything which is as bad or better. The question is does this meet the standard and it will stay or be deleted on that basis, if in the mean time you find other things that don't meet the standard feel free to improve them so they do, or if they can't be improved nominate them for deletion (being careful of making points) -- 82.7.39.174 ( talk) 12:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• You might like to take a look at WP:ALEXA, social network sites generally aren't considered reliable so being "fresh" with them isn't important, your comment regarding it being "too underground" is probably a fair indication it doesn't meet the required standards for verifiability and notability. -- 82.7.39.174 ( talk) 20:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Any chance of some third-party sources or (better) a sourced userspace draft? Stifle ( talk) 18:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Keep deleted in the absence of same. Stifle ( talk) 09:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Politeness goes a long way. I tried to find some basis to recreate the article. However, the only thing I found was rfshq as it relates to Royal Forestry Society Headquarters. I could not find any Wikipedia reliable source info on RFSHQ's parent, RFS Media Productions. To begin on a path towards a Wikipedia article on RFSHQ, you may want to contact an alternative weekly newspaper or two to see whether they will do a write up on the website. Sending out press releases also may spark an interest in a newspaper to run a story on the website. You can also try to send out some of the videos to television stations to be aired with credit as a way to generate publicity in the website that then may bring the print media. You can keep track of all this by having an In the News link at www.rfshq.com. -- Suntag ☼ 16:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Endorse per fvw; fails WP:WEB bigtime. -- Orange Mike | Talk 20:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep deleted. No reliable sources providing notability are presented here. The original reason for deletion therefore remains unaddressed.  Sandstein  20:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Trinity Morgana (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( restore | cache | AfD))

she is listed in all the adult film databases http://www.adultfilmdatabase.com/actor.cfm?actorid=50438 http://www.iafd.com/person.rme/perfid=TrinityMorgana/gender=F/trinity-morgana.htm

and has been in penthouse plus is a known actress name! I feel this was due to her religious choice or an disgruntled editor/admin and nothing more.I tried to contact deleteing admin but that admin admits to closing their talk page Billmathies ( talk) 03:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC) --> reply

• That really isn't much of an argument against the reasons given at the AfD. Still doesn't meet WP:PORNBIO, keep deleted. Also, questioning people's motives is unproductive and isn't going to help your case. -- fvw * 10:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Endorse. Being listed in an unreliable directory does not justify being covered in an encyclopaedia; even if AFDB were reliable (which it is not), its mission is entirely different from ours. Guy ( Help!) 12:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)? Stifle ( talk) 18:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Endorse deletion by default due to the nominator's failure to respond to a reasonable query. Stifle ( talk) 09:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• endorse deletion No reliable sources presented. Consensus was clear. There is no reason to believe that Trinity Morgana's being a wiccan had anything to do with the deletion. Persecution complexes are tiresome. JoshuaZ ( talk) 20:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• endorse Unless non-trivial reliable sources (i.e., not directory listings) are found. JulesH ( talk) 22:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Endorse deletion and note that requester has emailed me several times about this deletion, and seems to have difficulty in finding the correct admin to talk it over with. So by WP:AGF, he did make some attempt to discuss prior to DRV. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 16:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment - I couldn't find any Wikipedia reliable sources mentioning her. Her website doesn't have a list of news items. It would be nice to see her biography in Wikipedia but without newspaper article, books, and other reliable source material, there's not much that can be done. -- Suntag ☼ 20:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Endorse by default because no argument is made why the AfD was wrongly closed.  Sandstein  20:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC) reply