This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
Sometimes, a group of similar or related articles is nominated for deletion over a short period of time. In cases like this, it seems prudent to have one centralized discussion about the entire group, rather than repeating arguments over each member thereof. This is an attempt to forum consensus on one such groups of articles.
Wikipedia has long had a number of pages individual streets and roads. Some roads in the world certainly deserve articles (eg Broadway), while some might not ( Benson Street (Albany, New York)). Where the line is drawn, and the fate of dozens of articles recently written needs discussion. There have been some recent VfD's regarding these articles; an example includes Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Southwest Boulevard. Very recently a user has been adding articles to Category:Toronto streets. Some consider some of these to be of questionable value. At least one of these, Carlton Street, is listed on VfD. Rather than adding them one at a time it seems a discussion in this forum might be more worthwhile. In June 2004 there was a similar discussion about roads in Ottawa, Canada it was eventually decided its streets are encyclopedic. That discussion is archived at Talk:List of Ottawa, Ontario roads.
The notion has been put forward that any road with something of note on it is worthy of an article. This should be discussed. Note that 'something of note' is sometimes taken to mean 'it is nearby a certain attraction', or 'it is named after somebody famous'. The majority of these articles are created by User:206.47.220.230 and User:64.229.26.133.
Also see
I would recommend the bar for notability be set such that a person living 1000 kilometers or further from the road in question might reasonably be expected to have knowledge of the road. This would allow for articles on Rodeo Drive or Champs-Élysées along with major highways. At the same time streets that only a local would know about would be excluded. -- Allen3 01:33, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that any category that contains articles on streets should only be named something similar to Category:Famous California streets. Zzyzx11 04:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just found this page that a user named Earl Andrew created: List of Toronto, Ontario roads. All the roads on the list were made into links, which I believe is a major reason why several dozen road articles in Toronto were recently created. I think something should be done about articles such as this, and a policy should be put in palce that roads on such lists are made into links only after the article on the road is created. It might not make a huge difference, but it won't be such an encouragment for people to make useless articles on minor roads. - R. fiend 14:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the precedent that seems to be in place for Towns within a State such as List of New Hampshire places might be applied to streets within a City/Town. This precedent requires at least that the Articlename have some specificity. In this example, the Articlename must include the Town name, State. This rule would not allow an article named Concord for example because it not sufficiently specific, whereas the article Concord, New Hampshire is fine. Applying this kind of rule would not permit an article to be named Carlton Street (too vague the rule would say) but could permit Carlton Street, Toronto, Ontario (because of it's specificity) and not really worry about how long the street is or who knows (or cares) about it. This way we wouldn't need the "Streetname Notability Police" (which would be difficult and time-consuming) but just watch for sufficient specificity (a lot easier). Comments? hydnjo talk 18:26, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What do people think about Manhattan streets, 23-42? If for any street the Notes column gets too big, it could be broken off into its own article (like is done for 23rd Street, 34th Street and 42nd Street). All other street names (properly disambiguated with (Manhattan)) redirect to that page. Alternately a separate section could be made for comments on each street. -- SPUI ( talk) 23:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My suggestion is that the information should be included in the appropriate city article first. If information can not fit into the article, move out into a list type article, briefly describing the street. Although Wikipedia is not a road map, it doesn't hurt to have a list of minor streets into one article, rather than red linking them. Red linking should only occur to streets and roads are famous, or have cultural or historical significance. -- AllyUnion (talk) 00:20, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As author of the Southwest Boulevard article cited at the top of this discussion, I am glad to see that Wikipedia is trying to develop a consistent policy to deal with this issue. Kudos to whoever started this discussion and all those participating.
First of all, whatever is decided here needs to be included in the texts new users typically see when starting articles, as I would have never started these "road-based" articles on Wikipedia to begin with. However, the Southwest Boulevard and other pages are not inappropriate for Wikipedia because of the notability issue. As I discuss on my user page, whether a topic is notable or important is a subjective value and goes against Wikipedia's objective philosophy. This is also the problem with the above suggestions involving distance or inclusion in travel or other guides. The aritcle was inappropriate for Wikipedia because of lack of sources, which no one pointed out in the VfD debates.
The real test of whether street articles should be deleted are already covered by the higher orders of what is in and out, not non-arguments like notability, fame, or whether the article is "encyclopedic". The real test is whether the individual article is necessary for a reader to gain an understanding on the topic in relation to the other topics in Wikipedia. Southwest Boulevard as its own article passes this test, because it is important to understanding the communities and culture of West Tulsa, just as Broadway is important in understanding Manhattan.
As an afterthought, I am also disappointed that no part of the Southwest Boulevard article was deemed important enough to be merged into the West Tulsa, Route 66, Tulsa or other articles. Deleting articles is meant to be a drastic step to get rid of the most obviously unwanted articles like fan pages, vanity, etc. and the guide to deletion suggests that when there is doubt or extend arguments, the page should not be deleted but edited. AboutWestTulsa 02:51, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the issue of how do we keep from having a VfD for every street in the world is best addressed by being more specific on the information we provide new users when they are curious about starting articles.
For instance, from Wikipedia:Your first article:
Whatever consensus we reach, we should include in the above sections from WP:Your first article. AboutWestTulsa 19:09, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's wrong with a map/atlas source? How else would you find that, for example, US 17 goes through Green Cove Springs, Florida? (Theoretical example; there might in fact be a newspaper article about something on US 17 there.) I guess you could cite the road signs, which are official sources, and if necessary get a photo. -- SPUI ( talk) 20:59, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some months ago a few articles about individual train stations were listed on vfd, and a consensus quickly developed that every single train station served by the MTA (New York City's public transportation system) is notable enough to have a short article. I would think that articles on the streets in New York are not any less valuable than the articles about the subway stations. Morris 17:25, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
IMHO Geographic streetcruft that are inherently encyclopedic.
I think in many of these cases, it would be better to merge into one larger article. For instance, a list of all the fire departments in an area, since there's not much that could be said about each. -- SPUI ( talk) 13:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with SPUI's contention. For example, Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles is definitely worthy of an article, but I doubt the same could be said of many other important streets like La Tijera Boulevard or James Wood Boulevard. -- Coolcaesar 18:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia is the sum of all verifiable human knowledge, geography is a type of knowledge. I think GRider said it best.
Klonimus 06:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Inspired by the BEEFSTEW guidelines, I suggest that we develop a similar checklist to determine which roads/streets are noteable. A quick first attempt would be
Section A: Urban/local roads - score at least 2-3 1. Is the road mentioned in 1a. A guidebook for the Country/State/Province/Region/Major city it is in? OR 1b. In a guidebook for a smaller area than above, other than for shopping or tourist accomodation?
2. Does the road have any of the following on it? 2a. At least two mainline railway stations 2b. At least two metro/light rail stations that are not part of an interchange with a mainline station, OR at least one metro/light rail interchange with a mainline station AND at least one other metro/light rail station 2c. At least two museums that have their own article 2d. At least two seperate attractions mentioned in a guidebook as at 1a OR at least three separate attractiosn mentioned in a guidebook as at 1b.
3. If no to question 2, does the article contain more information than could be resonably contained in a short section in the article on 3a. A mainline railway or metro/light rail station on the road? 3b. A major public transport interchange on the road (e.g. the hub for a tram system)? 3c. A museum located on the road 3d. An attraction that qualifies at 2d. (e.g a sports stadium, theatre, etc) 3e. A regular or one-off event held on the road (e.g. a carnival, parade, demonstration, etc) 3f. A film, song or book it plays a significan role in
4. Is a person from outside the region likely to have heard of the road? (this does not inlcude inferred references, e.g. becuase 5th Avenue, Old Kent Road and West Street are famous it is reasonable to infer that there is also a 4th Avenue, (New) Kent Road and East Street)
5. Is notable, nationally or internationally, as a good or typical example of its type.
6. The article is about a notable neighbourhood or other notable area that is named for the road, or which is deifined by the road.
7. Other than the above, does the article make a serious attempt to establish notability?
Section B: National roads & Highways - score at least 1 1. Is the road a motorway/freeway/autobahn etc or major highway (e.g. M1 Motorway)
2. Is the road a former motorway/freeway/autobahn etc or former major highway that 2a. is still (nearly) as notable as it was when it was current (e.g Route 66)? 2b. is now notable as a former road? 2c. retains its importance in the minds of the public, even though its status on the ground has decreased?
3. Is the road a significant historical route (e.g. a major roman road)
4. Other than the above, does the article make a serious attempt to establish notability?
My idea is that most national roads, and almost all motorways are notable - hence they just need to score 1 or more, whereas the significant majority of city/town/community/etc roads are not, and hence need to score 2 or 3 points on the tougher guidelines. Please feel free to improve these guidelines, they are only a first draft. Thryduulf 12:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's decent consensus that anything numbered at the state level is notable - see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Washington State Route 900. I'd add something about being an arterial or higher in the hierarchy of roads (I can find this information for some states) and being part of the National Highway System (in the U.S.; this is a system of roads that may be locally maintained but carry major traffic). Maybe something about its length. -- SPUI ( talk) 12:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's the purpose of having this discussion, if Admins are already deleting the articles we are discussing in trying to find a consensus on here? AboutWestTulsa 18:54, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I made Apopka-Vineland Road a while back. This doesn't even get into the type of development along the road; it strictly deals with the road itself. -- SPUI ( talk) 00:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How much of the problem is caused by the fact that this is an encylopedia? If this type of information was in an Atlas, would the problem go away? Vegaswikian 16:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
Sometimes, a group of similar or related articles is nominated for deletion over a short period of time. In cases like this, it seems prudent to have one centralized discussion about the entire group, rather than repeating arguments over each member thereof. This is an attempt to forum consensus on one such groups of articles.
Wikipedia has long had a number of pages individual streets and roads. Some roads in the world certainly deserve articles (eg Broadway), while some might not ( Benson Street (Albany, New York)). Where the line is drawn, and the fate of dozens of articles recently written needs discussion. There have been some recent VfD's regarding these articles; an example includes Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Southwest Boulevard. Very recently a user has been adding articles to Category:Toronto streets. Some consider some of these to be of questionable value. At least one of these, Carlton Street, is listed on VfD. Rather than adding them one at a time it seems a discussion in this forum might be more worthwhile. In June 2004 there was a similar discussion about roads in Ottawa, Canada it was eventually decided its streets are encyclopedic. That discussion is archived at Talk:List of Ottawa, Ontario roads.
The notion has been put forward that any road with something of note on it is worthy of an article. This should be discussed. Note that 'something of note' is sometimes taken to mean 'it is nearby a certain attraction', or 'it is named after somebody famous'. The majority of these articles are created by User:206.47.220.230 and User:64.229.26.133.
Also see
I would recommend the bar for notability be set such that a person living 1000 kilometers or further from the road in question might reasonably be expected to have knowledge of the road. This would allow for articles on Rodeo Drive or Champs-Élysées along with major highways. At the same time streets that only a local would know about would be excluded. -- Allen3 01:33, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that any category that contains articles on streets should only be named something similar to Category:Famous California streets. Zzyzx11 04:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just found this page that a user named Earl Andrew created: List of Toronto, Ontario roads. All the roads on the list were made into links, which I believe is a major reason why several dozen road articles in Toronto were recently created. I think something should be done about articles such as this, and a policy should be put in palce that roads on such lists are made into links only after the article on the road is created. It might not make a huge difference, but it won't be such an encouragment for people to make useless articles on minor roads. - R. fiend 14:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the precedent that seems to be in place for Towns within a State such as List of New Hampshire places might be applied to streets within a City/Town. This precedent requires at least that the Articlename have some specificity. In this example, the Articlename must include the Town name, State. This rule would not allow an article named Concord for example because it not sufficiently specific, whereas the article Concord, New Hampshire is fine. Applying this kind of rule would not permit an article to be named Carlton Street (too vague the rule would say) but could permit Carlton Street, Toronto, Ontario (because of it's specificity) and not really worry about how long the street is or who knows (or cares) about it. This way we wouldn't need the "Streetname Notability Police" (which would be difficult and time-consuming) but just watch for sufficient specificity (a lot easier). Comments? hydnjo talk 18:26, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What do people think about Manhattan streets, 23-42? If for any street the Notes column gets too big, it could be broken off into its own article (like is done for 23rd Street, 34th Street and 42nd Street). All other street names (properly disambiguated with (Manhattan)) redirect to that page. Alternately a separate section could be made for comments on each street. -- SPUI ( talk) 23:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My suggestion is that the information should be included in the appropriate city article first. If information can not fit into the article, move out into a list type article, briefly describing the street. Although Wikipedia is not a road map, it doesn't hurt to have a list of minor streets into one article, rather than red linking them. Red linking should only occur to streets and roads are famous, or have cultural or historical significance. -- AllyUnion (talk) 00:20, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As author of the Southwest Boulevard article cited at the top of this discussion, I am glad to see that Wikipedia is trying to develop a consistent policy to deal with this issue. Kudos to whoever started this discussion and all those participating.
First of all, whatever is decided here needs to be included in the texts new users typically see when starting articles, as I would have never started these "road-based" articles on Wikipedia to begin with. However, the Southwest Boulevard and other pages are not inappropriate for Wikipedia because of the notability issue. As I discuss on my user page, whether a topic is notable or important is a subjective value and goes against Wikipedia's objective philosophy. This is also the problem with the above suggestions involving distance or inclusion in travel or other guides. The aritcle was inappropriate for Wikipedia because of lack of sources, which no one pointed out in the VfD debates.
The real test of whether street articles should be deleted are already covered by the higher orders of what is in and out, not non-arguments like notability, fame, or whether the article is "encyclopedic". The real test is whether the individual article is necessary for a reader to gain an understanding on the topic in relation to the other topics in Wikipedia. Southwest Boulevard as its own article passes this test, because it is important to understanding the communities and culture of West Tulsa, just as Broadway is important in understanding Manhattan.
As an afterthought, I am also disappointed that no part of the Southwest Boulevard article was deemed important enough to be merged into the West Tulsa, Route 66, Tulsa or other articles. Deleting articles is meant to be a drastic step to get rid of the most obviously unwanted articles like fan pages, vanity, etc. and the guide to deletion suggests that when there is doubt or extend arguments, the page should not be deleted but edited. AboutWestTulsa 02:51, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the issue of how do we keep from having a VfD for every street in the world is best addressed by being more specific on the information we provide new users when they are curious about starting articles.
For instance, from Wikipedia:Your first article:
Whatever consensus we reach, we should include in the above sections from WP:Your first article. AboutWestTulsa 19:09, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's wrong with a map/atlas source? How else would you find that, for example, US 17 goes through Green Cove Springs, Florida? (Theoretical example; there might in fact be a newspaper article about something on US 17 there.) I guess you could cite the road signs, which are official sources, and if necessary get a photo. -- SPUI ( talk) 20:59, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some months ago a few articles about individual train stations were listed on vfd, and a consensus quickly developed that every single train station served by the MTA (New York City's public transportation system) is notable enough to have a short article. I would think that articles on the streets in New York are not any less valuable than the articles about the subway stations. Morris 17:25, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
IMHO Geographic streetcruft that are inherently encyclopedic.
I think in many of these cases, it would be better to merge into one larger article. For instance, a list of all the fire departments in an area, since there's not much that could be said about each. -- SPUI ( talk) 13:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with SPUI's contention. For example, Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles is definitely worthy of an article, but I doubt the same could be said of many other important streets like La Tijera Boulevard or James Wood Boulevard. -- Coolcaesar 18:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia is the sum of all verifiable human knowledge, geography is a type of knowledge. I think GRider said it best.
Klonimus 06:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Inspired by the BEEFSTEW guidelines, I suggest that we develop a similar checklist to determine which roads/streets are noteable. A quick first attempt would be
Section A: Urban/local roads - score at least 2-3 1. Is the road mentioned in 1a. A guidebook for the Country/State/Province/Region/Major city it is in? OR 1b. In a guidebook for a smaller area than above, other than for shopping or tourist accomodation?
2. Does the road have any of the following on it? 2a. At least two mainline railway stations 2b. At least two metro/light rail stations that are not part of an interchange with a mainline station, OR at least one metro/light rail interchange with a mainline station AND at least one other metro/light rail station 2c. At least two museums that have their own article 2d. At least two seperate attractions mentioned in a guidebook as at 1a OR at least three separate attractiosn mentioned in a guidebook as at 1b.
3. If no to question 2, does the article contain more information than could be resonably contained in a short section in the article on 3a. A mainline railway or metro/light rail station on the road? 3b. A major public transport interchange on the road (e.g. the hub for a tram system)? 3c. A museum located on the road 3d. An attraction that qualifies at 2d. (e.g a sports stadium, theatre, etc) 3e. A regular or one-off event held on the road (e.g. a carnival, parade, demonstration, etc) 3f. A film, song or book it plays a significan role in
4. Is a person from outside the region likely to have heard of the road? (this does not inlcude inferred references, e.g. becuase 5th Avenue, Old Kent Road and West Street are famous it is reasonable to infer that there is also a 4th Avenue, (New) Kent Road and East Street)
5. Is notable, nationally or internationally, as a good or typical example of its type.
6. The article is about a notable neighbourhood or other notable area that is named for the road, or which is deifined by the road.
7. Other than the above, does the article make a serious attempt to establish notability?
Section B: National roads & Highways - score at least 1 1. Is the road a motorway/freeway/autobahn etc or major highway (e.g. M1 Motorway)
2. Is the road a former motorway/freeway/autobahn etc or former major highway that 2a. is still (nearly) as notable as it was when it was current (e.g Route 66)? 2b. is now notable as a former road? 2c. retains its importance in the minds of the public, even though its status on the ground has decreased?
3. Is the road a significant historical route (e.g. a major roman road)
4. Other than the above, does the article make a serious attempt to establish notability?
My idea is that most national roads, and almost all motorways are notable - hence they just need to score 1 or more, whereas the significant majority of city/town/community/etc roads are not, and hence need to score 2 or 3 points on the tougher guidelines. Please feel free to improve these guidelines, they are only a first draft. Thryduulf 12:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's decent consensus that anything numbered at the state level is notable - see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Washington State Route 900. I'd add something about being an arterial or higher in the hierarchy of roads (I can find this information for some states) and being part of the National Highway System (in the U.S.; this is a system of roads that may be locally maintained but carry major traffic). Maybe something about its length. -- SPUI ( talk) 12:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's the purpose of having this discussion, if Admins are already deleting the articles we are discussing in trying to find a consensus on here? AboutWestTulsa 18:54, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I made Apopka-Vineland Road a while back. This doesn't even get into the type of development along the road; it strictly deals with the road itself. -- SPUI ( talk) 00:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How much of the problem is caused by the fact that this is an encylopedia? If this type of information was in an Atlas, would the problem go away? Vegaswikian 16:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)