ded
This is a
failed proposal.
Consensus for its implementation was not established within a reasonable period of time. If you want to revive discussion, please use
the talk page or initiate a thread at
the village pump. |
(Moved from Think tank)~~
Ebe123~~ (+)
talk
Contribs
21:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to see Ebe has started the process. I was actually planning on recruiting a team to start re-organizing this project after the Fall semester ended. I've got several ideas for the revamp. Ultimately, my plan integrates several existing projects in to a new wider sweeping, more organized CVU. Right now, as the project is, CVU does massive amounts of reverts, Abuse Response relies on reports from users to make inquiries to ISPs, Long-Term Abuse tracks a very specific set of offenders, SPI investigates reports of suspected socks, and I'm sure that I'm leaving some out.
Ultimately, all counter-vandalism operations would become a single project which would have several divisions, each with different responsibilities, and better communication between them, rather than each being it's own project. Just off the top of my head, this is what the structure would have been like:
Counter-Vandalism Unit
Now, granted this isn't a final plan by any means, but it is something to consider working for. It would take a lot of work and a lot of cooperation between existing project organizers and us.
This just honestly made sense to me at the time I started thinking about revamping this project, and I feel it would allow us to deal with vandalism on Wikipedia more effectively.
Anyway, I figured I'd throw my idea out there to let those still interested in the project consider options, and decide what would be the best way to go. Right now, no option should be off the table, so feel free to fire back changes to this plan, or add your own. If we're revamping the project, we should revamp it so that it will last, and have a lasting impact on Wikipedia. AndrewN talk 01:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
This Section of Discussion Archived/Closed (Reason listed in Archive Result area)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Why are you trying to subsume all the processes under the CVU? What purpose does it serve other than aggrandizement of the CVU? Fences& Windows 22:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
What exactly would be the effect of this "reorg" on, for example, New Page Patrol? 28bytes ( talk) 23:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Strongly agree with Fences and windows. This is a WikiProject—"merely a collection of individuals dedicated to removing vandalism". A WikiProject for vandal fighters is, in this day and age, simply not needed. But fine, wanting to revive it is fair enough. But suddenly proposing that it absorbs half the administrative processes on Wikipedia is just... excessive. Swarm X 01:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I think it's extremely valuable to consider how WP:ABUSE can in some way work more closely with WP:LTA. Whether that means both being merged into CVU, or one being subsumed into the other, I don't really care. As I've explained at Wikipedia talk:Abuse response, much of what WP:ABUSE does at the present time seems completely pointless; whereas if it were focused on issues raised by WP:LTA then it would be (at least) less pointless. (Incidentally, Jimbo has given some support to the latter idea.) Ditch all the ideas about electing chairpeople to oversee underpopulated ships; concentrate on making these two initiatives work together to actually do something useful. Make records of your results, anonymised if necessary. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 23:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I am designing a new MP for the CVU since the current one is a mess. It's at Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Sandbox. ~~ Ebe123~~ → report ← Contribs 12:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I am reverting the main page back to it's original state, and unarchiving this discussion. There was no consensus established from the active project members to do anything. As clearly stated in the notices on the top of this page, we are NOT taking action yet, on ANYTHING proposed on this page. We won't take action on it until there is a consensus between all active project members. AndrewN talk 23:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Vandalism studies will likely be merged soon (though we still need anyone who hasn't posted there already to go to the talkpage and Support the measure), so now the big hole in our layout is administration. There are two big areas to address: 1) Layout of the administration page(s). 2) Structure of administration itself. Anyone can start to work on #1, and I have no real opinions to say as to preliminary design concpets. #2 is far more important, and needs active discussion by the community. Firstly, elections. I see no way to make the administration, if this project is to grow, without some form of election. The specifics of this are difficult to decide, however.
Secondly, it must be more specified what the coordinators exactly do.
I will need to think about the answers to these questions, though I think the discussion should begin now. Marechal Ney ( talk) 03:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a reminder to everyone. We are only talking about what we may like to do, not actually doing anything. At this point, there is a lot to be discussed. Before we take action, we need to draw up a proposal detailing EVERYTHING to be done, and then all the active project members need to approve it. AndrewN talk 23:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I have begun drafting a proposal. Feel free to change it liberally. It can be found here. Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 14:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The following is the tentative proposal for the guidelines of the CVU. I propose the project take a vote for its ratification. Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 16:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The following are the proposed guidelines for the operation of the Counter Vandalism Unit.
The purpose of the Counter Vandalism Unit is:
A coordinator shall be, in general,
The coordinators duties shall include, but not be limited to:
A user shall be viewed as a member of the CVU if he/she:
The count of each section as it stands on Friday, February 10th, 2012 is 6/1/0 Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 17:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Let's say that this vote stays open for another week. It passes with flying colors – only one oppose, that's consensus! – and the CVU has a shiny new official charter. What happens next? You spend a couple of weeks agreeing that three, four, five, or all of you get to add CVU coordinator to your signatures (maybe someone makes a userbox for that); someone spends a week or two closing the Vandalism Studies WikiProject merger vote and moves their pages into the subpages of CVU...and then what? What are the near-term goals and tasks the CVU might conceivably perform (subject to whatever paperwork and coordinator rubber stamps are needed) to fulfill their mission(s)? What are the useful and constructive tasks that the CVU members here would like to carry out? TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to be blunt; I apologize if it seems like I'm picking on you guys, but here it is in all of its tl;dr glory. I don't think the current small cadre of organizers on this talk page have demonstrated a need for a new project to perform the tasks that they present as its purpose(s), and I don't think that they currently have the necessary experience, skills, and social capital to pull the job off even if we grant that it ought to be done. Worse, it's all my fault that we're even here having this discussion.
I'm a bit of on odd duck on this page. I'm not a member of the CVU, and never have been. I only watchlisted the CVU in late 2010 because I noticed that the main page contained misleading and potentially harmful instructions about how to use vandalism warnings. (New editors were being advised to only take reports of vandalism to WP:AIV after four warnings had been issued: generally a waste of time, and an invitation to more vandalism. This attitude had begun to leak over into more-experienced editors at AIV – who had absorbed the CVU instructions over the year or so they had been up – who were starting to turn down perfectly reasonable requests because a prolific vandal hadn't received their allotted three or four warnings.) I raised the problem on the CVU talk page [3], and figured that someone from the CVU would fix the problem. More than a week later I had received no response, and I had to rewrite the instructions myself. No CVU member then or since has bothered to even acknowledge that I did their project a good turn, and honestly I doubt that any of them even noticed that their front page had been changed.
Fast forward a year to October 2011, and I was still the last editor to make any significant update to the CVU mainpage. I put up the {{ historic}} template, and Lord! what a storm that provoked. The same violently apathetic members who couldn't be bothered to fix core instructions about Countering Vandalism on their own project's main page couldn't stand the suggestion their userboxes were merely ornamental. (Indeed, the very first edit to the CVU mainpage after I marked it 'historic' was a reformatting of the userboxes table: [4].) An urgent message went out to the members. The 'historic' template was removed two and a half days after it went up—far less time than it took to fix an error on the project's front page. Who will mind this store, and what are their priorities?
Step forward another four months, and now we're here. The 'save our project' signature campaign drew in forty-five signatures. The guidelines for a new and revitalized CVU have been posted for three weeks; of the forty-five editors who cared enough to sign last year's I'm-a-member declaration, just six are still paying enough attention to the project to vote on the proposed guidelines. Is this lack of involvement due to a lack of interest on the part of most CVU members, or is this the result of very poor communication on the part of the editors trying to manage this process? (My own suspicions lean more to the former than the latter, but either cause suggests serious problems.)
The most active individuals here – the ones participating in this discussion, who would by default likely end up in the proposed leadership roles – are not among Wikipedia's most experienced editors. Most have been involved with Wikipedia for less than two years (some for significantly less time). To be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting that newer editors aren't valuable, that their enthusiasm should be squelched, or that you guys aren't competent and hardworking—but I'm having trouble seeing the 'street cred'. If you lead, will people follow? In this core group, I don't see
In other words, you guys are missing the permissions and experience necessary to perform several of the core functions of vandal-fighting.
The proposed guideline and ensuing discussion touch on CVU having a particularly persuasive or cohesive voice in guiding the development of anti-vandalism tools. Why should the various software developers and bot operators be expected to lend more weight to your requests and opinions—just because a little group of you assigned yourselves some titles? Have you previously participated in the leadership of any WikiProject, or demonstrated skills in communicating with software developers?
The lack of experience will affect your ability to carry out your proposed missions. Above, Achowat foresees the creation of a CVU Academy, wherein part of the curriculum would involve the processes at AIV. Achowat is, as far as I know, a good editor, who works hard, and is approaching all of this in the best of faith—but as of last month, he was still making basic errors like these ones at AIV (placing reports of vandalism in the commented-out header instructions). It's not fair and it's not appropriate to hold yourselves out as experts and leaders when you're still making 'rookie' mistakes.
From the standpoint of creating or summarizing documentation, procedures, and policy, I have qualms. (Remember, I came here because one such summary was done particularly badly.) Wikipedia's policy and Help pages are very heavily watched and discussed, and generally quite carefully and thoroughly edited. It's not clear to me that attempting to duplicate and condense those rules under CVU's imprimatur will necessarily be a good and helpful thing; if done poorly, it would be damaging; if done well, the effort might better have been spent on the policy pages themselves. With a small number of highly-active editors on CVU, we won't necessarily be getting How to Handle Vandalism; we'll be getting Ebe123's Opinions on Vandalism, with Foreword by Achowat.
Wikipedia already has pages where editors can ask questions about how Wikipedia works, including how to handle vandalism. Pages like the Help Desk and the Administrators' noticeboard are constantly and enthusiastically watched by rather large numbers of Wikipedia's most experienced editors, and polite questions receive constructive responses within minutes. For situations requiring additional skills or permissions, there are lots of editors with admin privileges and with years of experience in handling WP:SPI, WP:CCI, WP:AIV, and every other alphabet-soup acronym on the project. WT:CVU, on the other hand, has a track record for responses than run in the hours-to-days-to-never range, and limited experience and tool availability. Repairing vandalism is generally a pretty solitary pursuit; in the situations where it isn't, editors need access to bigger guns than the current CVU skill pool provides.
A suggested purpose of this project is to coordinate and centralize various other vandalism-related projects; do those projects want your help, or see a need for your role? Beyond folding the also-essentially-defunct Wikipedia:WikiProject Vandalism studies into this one, who is out there for you to coordinate with? Do you anticipate that CVU would be consulted by (or even give permission to) on- or off-Wikipedia projects that study or respond to vandalism? (And if so, why? Do you bring particular skills or expertise in sociology, psychology, criminology, etc. to the table?) Is there anyone present in this discussion with clear and specific plans to conduct their own vandalism-related research, and who has the dedication, resources, and time to follow those plans through?
Looking at the current process, I'm seeing many of the same problems that plagued the original incarnation of the CVU. Back when it was first formed (2005/6), the CVU had some serious reputational issues. The attitude on these pages sometimes had a paramilitary flavor, with a declared intention to seek out and "destroy vandalism", a Wikipedia DEFCON meter (which was about as useful as the U.S. color-coded terror alert level meter), discussions about creating a CVU SWAT rapid response team, and other silliness. There was a great deal of process (and attempts to build and create new process) for its own sake, but precious little that one could point to and say, 'that was a useful addition to Wikipedia'. (Editors involved in administration from that era remember the CVU as a source of mild amusement and sometime pain in the neck. While attempting to start a new counter-vandalism project under the CVU banner means you get a pre-made mailing list of members and snazzy userboxes, be aware that you also get a fair bit of historical baggage.) What you have is a moderately-sized but very loose collection of individuals who are content to have their involvement with CVU limited to a userbox. Under that somewhat-broad but thin support you have a tiny core of individuals who want to build a more elaborate and far-reaching organization, but who haven't made a persuasive case for it.
As Tarheel95 says so succinctly above, the purpose of this discussion is "to keep the CVU alive". I don't find that a compelling argument. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 16:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
WP:AVOIDYOU (Make note, I'm directing you only to the paragraph linked to and not the great WP:NPA; nothing you've done so far has even approached a personal attack). That being said, we're here to "discuss the edits, not the editors." If you have no arguments against the actual content of this proposal, then there's really no discussion. I don't even know if you think these ideas are worthwhile or not, all I keep hearing is that there is somehow this band of 4 or 5 of us who will somehow by fiat declare ourselves Coordinators, create a userbox, and then spend the next 6 months twiddling our thumbs until we decide to have another sham election. That is, frankly, a little insulting. The category for Wikipedians in CVU is full of about 2,800 Users. To suggest that the only ones who would want to discuss the processes at CVU are those who want to discuss the way people discuss processes at CVU is, frankly, misguided. If a consensus is reached for the (s)election of Coordinators, I will make sure an invitation to participate in that (s)election process is given to every single person in that category, even if it takes me 60 hours to do so. And I welcome your participation; you have a better understanding of the issues that may face CVU in the future. You have a greater insight and more clue than a great many members of that Category. However, if you really think that these goals aren't worthwhile or that there is a better way to achieve these goals, let's talk about them. But, unfortunately, you haven't provided any insight into how you're thinking. I'm not dyed-in-the-wool about Coordinators, so let's talk constructively about whether they're needed and what they should do (well, assuming that you're opposed to the idea of Coordinators to begin with). We're stuck with a situation where Decisions have to be made by those who show up, and you've shown up so I want you to help make this decision. WP:DEMOCRACY doesn't just need we need to put exclamation points in front of the word "vote", it means when two groups of editors disagree, they reach a compromise. So let's start talking shop: Is there any revitalization of CVU that you would think would be of benefit to the encyclopedia, or do you believe that re-activating CVU is inherently detrimental? (Not facetious). Achowat ( talk) 05:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
ToAT makes a good point here, and I'm sold. This project, as it stands is to small for Coordinators. The core of 5 or 6 editors we have now can effect the change that we want to see. Nothing of what we're talking about requires an executive sub-group and there are likely not enough people who would be active anyway. If we focus on the goals instead of the process, we'll see that we really don't need Coordinators right now. Let's build The Academy, let's create a Tools Noticeboard, but together a drive. Look at all the opposes, there's too much bureaucracy and process, and that's the only thing people don't like. Let's try to run this through discussion and consensus, and maybe if we get too big to be wieldy, we can talk about a process to fix that. My !vote as above should be Oppose the inclusion of Coordinators. Achowat ( talk) 17:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
It's now apparent the project should not be led by coordinators, which is perfectly fine. Where should we go from here? Should we implement the proposal, or reform the project completely? Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 13:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Dear Sirs, as a relatively new editor and novice, I am interested in the whole Vandalism control issue and have tried to follow this whole, long and elaborate discussion, as above. If I may say so, please, it seems to me that this discussion centers mostly around rather complex, complicated ways and means, that would probably be suitable and comprehensible for very highly experienced editors/admins. An average, newish recruit like me can only read all this to his/her utter confusion! : ) Also, the whole discussion and its various proposals and ideas seem to me to be rather 'exclusive' i.e. they tend to marginalise many of us, who are also responsible and seriously committed editors/users, and would like to play whatever little role we can, in also inproving Wikipedia and checking/controlling Vandalism, at the same time, also keeping in mind the BASICS of Wikipedia guidelines/principles relating to (a) trusting people and assuming good faith and (b) encouraging 'interactive' role of Wiki users and the public. Under the circumstances, I cannot but feel that Wikipedia already has considerable guidelines and mechanisms to check and revert real cases of vandalism, and to eventually block vandals, and that more and more complicated systems of control would only end up being obstacles. Let's please leave things as they are, thanks! Khani100 ( talk) 21:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Khani100
Ok, so Tarheel, Dan, and I make 3. Let's triage this and find a more appropriate forum ( Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit/sandbox might be a good place to start). So, what is the most important thing we need to do, like right now this instant. Or, put more succinctly, what can we do right now that will have the greatest impact? Achowat ( talk) 14:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so Dan and I have put some work into those pages. I think we should move the Centralized Discussion of what to do with The Academy to Wikipedia talk:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Academy. Sound good? Achowat ( talk) 14:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Sure. As I'm sure you already know I have worked on the tools use page a bit. Dan653 ( talk) 18:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
If the unit is relaunched, how about a new name without the SWAT-like connotations? As I former member, I think it may be a good thing. Cloudbound ( talk) 21:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed the "Discussion" template from the top of the CVU homepage. It seems like this proposal has petered out and there's no more discussion. If I've been too bold, feel free to revert me. Achowat ( talk) 19:51, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
ded
This is a
failed proposal.
Consensus for its implementation was not established within a reasonable period of time. If you want to revive discussion, please use
the talk page or initiate a thread at
the village pump. |
(Moved from Think tank)~~
Ebe123~~ (+)
talk
Contribs
21:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to see Ebe has started the process. I was actually planning on recruiting a team to start re-organizing this project after the Fall semester ended. I've got several ideas for the revamp. Ultimately, my plan integrates several existing projects in to a new wider sweeping, more organized CVU. Right now, as the project is, CVU does massive amounts of reverts, Abuse Response relies on reports from users to make inquiries to ISPs, Long-Term Abuse tracks a very specific set of offenders, SPI investigates reports of suspected socks, and I'm sure that I'm leaving some out.
Ultimately, all counter-vandalism operations would become a single project which would have several divisions, each with different responsibilities, and better communication between them, rather than each being it's own project. Just off the top of my head, this is what the structure would have been like:
Counter-Vandalism Unit
Now, granted this isn't a final plan by any means, but it is something to consider working for. It would take a lot of work and a lot of cooperation between existing project organizers and us.
This just honestly made sense to me at the time I started thinking about revamping this project, and I feel it would allow us to deal with vandalism on Wikipedia more effectively.
Anyway, I figured I'd throw my idea out there to let those still interested in the project consider options, and decide what would be the best way to go. Right now, no option should be off the table, so feel free to fire back changes to this plan, or add your own. If we're revamping the project, we should revamp it so that it will last, and have a lasting impact on Wikipedia. AndrewN talk 01:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
This Section of Discussion Archived/Closed (Reason listed in Archive Result area)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Why are you trying to subsume all the processes under the CVU? What purpose does it serve other than aggrandizement of the CVU? Fences& Windows 22:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
What exactly would be the effect of this "reorg" on, for example, New Page Patrol? 28bytes ( talk) 23:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Strongly agree with Fences and windows. This is a WikiProject—"merely a collection of individuals dedicated to removing vandalism". A WikiProject for vandal fighters is, in this day and age, simply not needed. But fine, wanting to revive it is fair enough. But suddenly proposing that it absorbs half the administrative processes on Wikipedia is just... excessive. Swarm X 01:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I think it's extremely valuable to consider how WP:ABUSE can in some way work more closely with WP:LTA. Whether that means both being merged into CVU, or one being subsumed into the other, I don't really care. As I've explained at Wikipedia talk:Abuse response, much of what WP:ABUSE does at the present time seems completely pointless; whereas if it were focused on issues raised by WP:LTA then it would be (at least) less pointless. (Incidentally, Jimbo has given some support to the latter idea.) Ditch all the ideas about electing chairpeople to oversee underpopulated ships; concentrate on making these two initiatives work together to actually do something useful. Make records of your results, anonymised if necessary. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 23:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I am designing a new MP for the CVU since the current one is a mess. It's at Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Sandbox. ~~ Ebe123~~ → report ← Contribs 12:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I am reverting the main page back to it's original state, and unarchiving this discussion. There was no consensus established from the active project members to do anything. As clearly stated in the notices on the top of this page, we are NOT taking action yet, on ANYTHING proposed on this page. We won't take action on it until there is a consensus between all active project members. AndrewN talk 23:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Vandalism studies will likely be merged soon (though we still need anyone who hasn't posted there already to go to the talkpage and Support the measure), so now the big hole in our layout is administration. There are two big areas to address: 1) Layout of the administration page(s). 2) Structure of administration itself. Anyone can start to work on #1, and I have no real opinions to say as to preliminary design concpets. #2 is far more important, and needs active discussion by the community. Firstly, elections. I see no way to make the administration, if this project is to grow, without some form of election. The specifics of this are difficult to decide, however.
Secondly, it must be more specified what the coordinators exactly do.
I will need to think about the answers to these questions, though I think the discussion should begin now. Marechal Ney ( talk) 03:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a reminder to everyone. We are only talking about what we may like to do, not actually doing anything. At this point, there is a lot to be discussed. Before we take action, we need to draw up a proposal detailing EVERYTHING to be done, and then all the active project members need to approve it. AndrewN talk 23:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I have begun drafting a proposal. Feel free to change it liberally. It can be found here. Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 14:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The following is the tentative proposal for the guidelines of the CVU. I propose the project take a vote for its ratification. Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 16:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The following are the proposed guidelines for the operation of the Counter Vandalism Unit.
The purpose of the Counter Vandalism Unit is:
A coordinator shall be, in general,
The coordinators duties shall include, but not be limited to:
A user shall be viewed as a member of the CVU if he/she:
The count of each section as it stands on Friday, February 10th, 2012 is 6/1/0 Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 17:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Let's say that this vote stays open for another week. It passes with flying colors – only one oppose, that's consensus! – and the CVU has a shiny new official charter. What happens next? You spend a couple of weeks agreeing that three, four, five, or all of you get to add CVU coordinator to your signatures (maybe someone makes a userbox for that); someone spends a week or two closing the Vandalism Studies WikiProject merger vote and moves their pages into the subpages of CVU...and then what? What are the near-term goals and tasks the CVU might conceivably perform (subject to whatever paperwork and coordinator rubber stamps are needed) to fulfill their mission(s)? What are the useful and constructive tasks that the CVU members here would like to carry out? TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to be blunt; I apologize if it seems like I'm picking on you guys, but here it is in all of its tl;dr glory. I don't think the current small cadre of organizers on this talk page have demonstrated a need for a new project to perform the tasks that they present as its purpose(s), and I don't think that they currently have the necessary experience, skills, and social capital to pull the job off even if we grant that it ought to be done. Worse, it's all my fault that we're even here having this discussion.
I'm a bit of on odd duck on this page. I'm not a member of the CVU, and never have been. I only watchlisted the CVU in late 2010 because I noticed that the main page contained misleading and potentially harmful instructions about how to use vandalism warnings. (New editors were being advised to only take reports of vandalism to WP:AIV after four warnings had been issued: generally a waste of time, and an invitation to more vandalism. This attitude had begun to leak over into more-experienced editors at AIV – who had absorbed the CVU instructions over the year or so they had been up – who were starting to turn down perfectly reasonable requests because a prolific vandal hadn't received their allotted three or four warnings.) I raised the problem on the CVU talk page [3], and figured that someone from the CVU would fix the problem. More than a week later I had received no response, and I had to rewrite the instructions myself. No CVU member then or since has bothered to even acknowledge that I did their project a good turn, and honestly I doubt that any of them even noticed that their front page had been changed.
Fast forward a year to October 2011, and I was still the last editor to make any significant update to the CVU mainpage. I put up the {{ historic}} template, and Lord! what a storm that provoked. The same violently apathetic members who couldn't be bothered to fix core instructions about Countering Vandalism on their own project's main page couldn't stand the suggestion their userboxes were merely ornamental. (Indeed, the very first edit to the CVU mainpage after I marked it 'historic' was a reformatting of the userboxes table: [4].) An urgent message went out to the members. The 'historic' template was removed two and a half days after it went up—far less time than it took to fix an error on the project's front page. Who will mind this store, and what are their priorities?
Step forward another four months, and now we're here. The 'save our project' signature campaign drew in forty-five signatures. The guidelines for a new and revitalized CVU have been posted for three weeks; of the forty-five editors who cared enough to sign last year's I'm-a-member declaration, just six are still paying enough attention to the project to vote on the proposed guidelines. Is this lack of involvement due to a lack of interest on the part of most CVU members, or is this the result of very poor communication on the part of the editors trying to manage this process? (My own suspicions lean more to the former than the latter, but either cause suggests serious problems.)
The most active individuals here – the ones participating in this discussion, who would by default likely end up in the proposed leadership roles – are not among Wikipedia's most experienced editors. Most have been involved with Wikipedia for less than two years (some for significantly less time). To be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting that newer editors aren't valuable, that their enthusiasm should be squelched, or that you guys aren't competent and hardworking—but I'm having trouble seeing the 'street cred'. If you lead, will people follow? In this core group, I don't see
In other words, you guys are missing the permissions and experience necessary to perform several of the core functions of vandal-fighting.
The proposed guideline and ensuing discussion touch on CVU having a particularly persuasive or cohesive voice in guiding the development of anti-vandalism tools. Why should the various software developers and bot operators be expected to lend more weight to your requests and opinions—just because a little group of you assigned yourselves some titles? Have you previously participated in the leadership of any WikiProject, or demonstrated skills in communicating with software developers?
The lack of experience will affect your ability to carry out your proposed missions. Above, Achowat foresees the creation of a CVU Academy, wherein part of the curriculum would involve the processes at AIV. Achowat is, as far as I know, a good editor, who works hard, and is approaching all of this in the best of faith—but as of last month, he was still making basic errors like these ones at AIV (placing reports of vandalism in the commented-out header instructions). It's not fair and it's not appropriate to hold yourselves out as experts and leaders when you're still making 'rookie' mistakes.
From the standpoint of creating or summarizing documentation, procedures, and policy, I have qualms. (Remember, I came here because one such summary was done particularly badly.) Wikipedia's policy and Help pages are very heavily watched and discussed, and generally quite carefully and thoroughly edited. It's not clear to me that attempting to duplicate and condense those rules under CVU's imprimatur will necessarily be a good and helpful thing; if done poorly, it would be damaging; if done well, the effort might better have been spent on the policy pages themselves. With a small number of highly-active editors on CVU, we won't necessarily be getting How to Handle Vandalism; we'll be getting Ebe123's Opinions on Vandalism, with Foreword by Achowat.
Wikipedia already has pages where editors can ask questions about how Wikipedia works, including how to handle vandalism. Pages like the Help Desk and the Administrators' noticeboard are constantly and enthusiastically watched by rather large numbers of Wikipedia's most experienced editors, and polite questions receive constructive responses within minutes. For situations requiring additional skills or permissions, there are lots of editors with admin privileges and with years of experience in handling WP:SPI, WP:CCI, WP:AIV, and every other alphabet-soup acronym on the project. WT:CVU, on the other hand, has a track record for responses than run in the hours-to-days-to-never range, and limited experience and tool availability. Repairing vandalism is generally a pretty solitary pursuit; in the situations where it isn't, editors need access to bigger guns than the current CVU skill pool provides.
A suggested purpose of this project is to coordinate and centralize various other vandalism-related projects; do those projects want your help, or see a need for your role? Beyond folding the also-essentially-defunct Wikipedia:WikiProject Vandalism studies into this one, who is out there for you to coordinate with? Do you anticipate that CVU would be consulted by (or even give permission to) on- or off-Wikipedia projects that study or respond to vandalism? (And if so, why? Do you bring particular skills or expertise in sociology, psychology, criminology, etc. to the table?) Is there anyone present in this discussion with clear and specific plans to conduct their own vandalism-related research, and who has the dedication, resources, and time to follow those plans through?
Looking at the current process, I'm seeing many of the same problems that plagued the original incarnation of the CVU. Back when it was first formed (2005/6), the CVU had some serious reputational issues. The attitude on these pages sometimes had a paramilitary flavor, with a declared intention to seek out and "destroy vandalism", a Wikipedia DEFCON meter (which was about as useful as the U.S. color-coded terror alert level meter), discussions about creating a CVU SWAT rapid response team, and other silliness. There was a great deal of process (and attempts to build and create new process) for its own sake, but precious little that one could point to and say, 'that was a useful addition to Wikipedia'. (Editors involved in administration from that era remember the CVU as a source of mild amusement and sometime pain in the neck. While attempting to start a new counter-vandalism project under the CVU banner means you get a pre-made mailing list of members and snazzy userboxes, be aware that you also get a fair bit of historical baggage.) What you have is a moderately-sized but very loose collection of individuals who are content to have their involvement with CVU limited to a userbox. Under that somewhat-broad but thin support you have a tiny core of individuals who want to build a more elaborate and far-reaching organization, but who haven't made a persuasive case for it.
As Tarheel95 says so succinctly above, the purpose of this discussion is "to keep the CVU alive". I don't find that a compelling argument. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 16:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
WP:AVOIDYOU (Make note, I'm directing you only to the paragraph linked to and not the great WP:NPA; nothing you've done so far has even approached a personal attack). That being said, we're here to "discuss the edits, not the editors." If you have no arguments against the actual content of this proposal, then there's really no discussion. I don't even know if you think these ideas are worthwhile or not, all I keep hearing is that there is somehow this band of 4 or 5 of us who will somehow by fiat declare ourselves Coordinators, create a userbox, and then spend the next 6 months twiddling our thumbs until we decide to have another sham election. That is, frankly, a little insulting. The category for Wikipedians in CVU is full of about 2,800 Users. To suggest that the only ones who would want to discuss the processes at CVU are those who want to discuss the way people discuss processes at CVU is, frankly, misguided. If a consensus is reached for the (s)election of Coordinators, I will make sure an invitation to participate in that (s)election process is given to every single person in that category, even if it takes me 60 hours to do so. And I welcome your participation; you have a better understanding of the issues that may face CVU in the future. You have a greater insight and more clue than a great many members of that Category. However, if you really think that these goals aren't worthwhile or that there is a better way to achieve these goals, let's talk about them. But, unfortunately, you haven't provided any insight into how you're thinking. I'm not dyed-in-the-wool about Coordinators, so let's talk constructively about whether they're needed and what they should do (well, assuming that you're opposed to the idea of Coordinators to begin with). We're stuck with a situation where Decisions have to be made by those who show up, and you've shown up so I want you to help make this decision. WP:DEMOCRACY doesn't just need we need to put exclamation points in front of the word "vote", it means when two groups of editors disagree, they reach a compromise. So let's start talking shop: Is there any revitalization of CVU that you would think would be of benefit to the encyclopedia, or do you believe that re-activating CVU is inherently detrimental? (Not facetious). Achowat ( talk) 05:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
ToAT makes a good point here, and I'm sold. This project, as it stands is to small for Coordinators. The core of 5 or 6 editors we have now can effect the change that we want to see. Nothing of what we're talking about requires an executive sub-group and there are likely not enough people who would be active anyway. If we focus on the goals instead of the process, we'll see that we really don't need Coordinators right now. Let's build The Academy, let's create a Tools Noticeboard, but together a drive. Look at all the opposes, there's too much bureaucracy and process, and that's the only thing people don't like. Let's try to run this through discussion and consensus, and maybe if we get too big to be wieldy, we can talk about a process to fix that. My !vote as above should be Oppose the inclusion of Coordinators. Achowat ( talk) 17:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
It's now apparent the project should not be led by coordinators, which is perfectly fine. Where should we go from here? Should we implement the proposal, or reform the project completely? Tarheel95 ( Sprechen) 13:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Dear Sirs, as a relatively new editor and novice, I am interested in the whole Vandalism control issue and have tried to follow this whole, long and elaborate discussion, as above. If I may say so, please, it seems to me that this discussion centers mostly around rather complex, complicated ways and means, that would probably be suitable and comprehensible for very highly experienced editors/admins. An average, newish recruit like me can only read all this to his/her utter confusion! : ) Also, the whole discussion and its various proposals and ideas seem to me to be rather 'exclusive' i.e. they tend to marginalise many of us, who are also responsible and seriously committed editors/users, and would like to play whatever little role we can, in also inproving Wikipedia and checking/controlling Vandalism, at the same time, also keeping in mind the BASICS of Wikipedia guidelines/principles relating to (a) trusting people and assuming good faith and (b) encouraging 'interactive' role of Wiki users and the public. Under the circumstances, I cannot but feel that Wikipedia already has considerable guidelines and mechanisms to check and revert real cases of vandalism, and to eventually block vandals, and that more and more complicated systems of control would only end up being obstacles. Let's please leave things as they are, thanks! Khani100 ( talk) 21:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Khani100
Ok, so Tarheel, Dan, and I make 3. Let's triage this and find a more appropriate forum ( Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit/sandbox might be a good place to start). So, what is the most important thing we need to do, like right now this instant. Or, put more succinctly, what can we do right now that will have the greatest impact? Achowat ( talk) 14:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so Dan and I have put some work into those pages. I think we should move the Centralized Discussion of what to do with The Academy to Wikipedia talk:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Academy. Sound good? Achowat ( talk) 14:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Sure. As I'm sure you already know I have worked on the tools use page a bit. Dan653 ( talk) 18:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
If the unit is relaunched, how about a new name without the SWAT-like connotations? As I former member, I think it may be a good thing. Cloudbound ( talk) 21:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed the "Discussion" template from the top of the CVU homepage. It seems like this proposal has petered out and there's no more discussion. If I've been too bold, feel free to revert me. Achowat ( talk) 19:51, 11 April 2012 (UTC)