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Replace this image female and Replace this image male are the latest versions of placeholder boxes that have been systematically added to 50,789 living biography articles lacking photos of their central subjects. The boxes link to a specialized upload form and license template system soliciting pertinent photos or illustrations from readers.
Some of these placeholder boxes have been removed from articles, and concerns and objections have been put forward. These include:
Proponents of the system have stated that the system is already effective at soliciting new photos. They are in the process of documenting this claim. They state:
Should the addition of this box be allowed? Does the placeholder system and graphic image need to be improved to satisfy policies and guidelines for inclusion? Is it appropriate to some kinds of biographies, but not to others?
How we got here
Prior discussion has taken place in various corners: user talk pages, image talk pages, article talk pages, and at some wikiprojects.
From April 9 to 11, 2008 there was a "Proposal to suspend all further use of this graphic on article pages pending a centralized discussion" ( archived here) at Image talk:Replace this image female.svg. The proposal passed with 18 editors in agreement, 12 editors in disagreement, and 2 abstentions.
User:Kleinzach closed the previous discussion on April 11 and provided a thorough summary in the section Summing up. (The summary is recommended reading; it's nice and succinct.) We then began this centralized discussion. Pending the outcome of this discussion, some editors have agreed to suspend their addition or removal of this placeholder box as we look toward a broader consensus.
Conclusion
As agreed, discussion of the 'Questions' and 'Proposals' concluded on Wednesday, April 23 (12.00 GMT/UTC).
We are now determining what the future course of action should be. Is there consensus for Proposal 1 to remove all placeholders? If not, can we modify the system to deal with the main objections? How can we reach agreement about how to move forward?
How shall we develop this discussion? Should we do it issue by issue? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned by the lack of participation. Do those who participated in the earlier, more procedural decision (whether to interrupt image placement pending discussion) feel that they've already had their say? We should be sure that those who are interested express their views here. Also, have we done enough outreach to broaden the discussion? I think contacting the Footballers and Opera singers and Oregon WikiProjects (which discussed the issue) would be worthwhile, also the Free Images WikiProject, and possibly writing something up for the Wikipedia Sign Post. (Something that has affected 50k articles, and stands to affect many more, seems worthy of a Signpost mention to me.) Thoughts? Should I do some of this outreach? Is anybody else doing it, or interested in doing it? (I think our conclusion, whatever it is, should reflect the views of as broad a group as possible.) - Pete ( talk) 05:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>Signpost article: I pitched it here, it's technically past the deadline but I haven't gotten any response about whether that's a problem, and it seems that the content is still under discussion. On that page you will find a link to my draft. I think if a couple other people endorse the draft (with some editing if you like, feel free), I think that would enhance the chances of it getting published. Just a hunch. - Pete ( talk) 04:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I realised that no-one had advertised this discussion on the mailing list, so I've just done so. -- Cherry blossom tree 17:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This discussion was briefly mentioned on the most recent (episode 46, I think) Wikipedia Weekly podcast. One person said she was unsure, one said the placeholders were ugly but then the discussion moved over to discussing other image-related issues. -- Cherry blossom tree 10:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I was completely unaware that this was going on until just now. Did I miss the discussion? Wizardman 22:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd urge everybody to exercise restraint. If Wizardman wants to add any comments to any pages under a Comment after the discussion closed heading that should be fine. We've already had one of them. (I think we'll soon be archiving them so it should be soon.) The actual number of votes in the proposals is not significant so there is no reason why Wizardman shouldn't take part in the discussion. (Welcome!)
As DoubleBlue says the most important part of the discussion is about to begin. First we have to approve the summaries. Then we have to look at the consensus, the so-called 'rough consensus'. that has emerged through the discussion. IMO our objective will be to meet the concerns of the majority while offering a new point of departure to the minority, though each of us may think about this in a different way. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 02:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: that Insearchofintelligentlife ( talk · contribs) and Divinediscourse ( talk · contribs) are the same person. Thatcher 21:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The debate is winding down and some people have been talking about setting a closing date. Any thoughts about this? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 13:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
As someone who's spoken of "seeking a broader consensus" several times, let me clarify: I was never saying we should seek unanimity, but rather that we should broaden the number of voices in the discussion, to be sure all points of view had been heard, that we fully understood the history of the system, etc. I am now satisfied that has occurred. I am just back from 2+ days away, and see that nothing substantially new has been added to the discussion. I think it's time to set a date for conclusion. - Pete ( talk) 05:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
We need to adopt a way of summarizing the discussion that is rigorously accurate, fair and neutral. IMO the simplest way to do this is to do separate summaries for each section (Questions, Proposals and miscellaneous). What do people think? Is this OK, or is there a better method available that will win more general acceptance? (See also Pete's suggestion above) -- Kleinzach ( talk) 09:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Seems like there is general agreement on methods. I guess we should aim to write the summaries over the next 24 to 36 hours or so. Sign-ups below. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 00:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The summaries look good! (Obviously a talented group of editors here!) Maybe we should check them now? if anyone has any suggestions/criticisms/objections about the summaries they should make them known here as soon as possible. (Pete: Is the Q1 summary a bit on the long side at 510 words?) Meanwhile I am getting on with Q2 (sorry for the delay). Best. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure we will be soon talking about 'consensus' and how WP policies apply to this discussion, but let's approve the summaries first, OK? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I am working on the history section. It is just taking a little longer than I expected and I have had a busy RL week. DoubleBlue ( Talk)
The summary of Proposal 1 was blanked here and reverted by Johnbod. Is a warning appropriate or should further action be taken? We have come to (potentially) the most difficult part of the discussion - it's essential that the opinions of all participants are respected. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 03:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Genisock2 has now been moving my comments in Section 12 here. I think the intention - as always - is to disrupt this discussion. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 00:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
For Geni and anyone else with concerns... Do you believe the summaries are an objective and accurate record of the discussion that transpired on each question and proposal? If not, could you please propose alternative summaries for any section that you believe is unfair? We're not asking "Do you think consensus says we should remove the placeholders?" or "Do you think the straw polls were fair?" or anything else. The discussion will continue, and you'll have plenty of opportunity to continue to state your opinion. We're just trying to get the summaries approved as a neutral record of events, the same way people on a committee might ratify the minutes of the previous meeting before beginning the next meeting. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
We have not been able, so far, to conclude this centralized discussion. Almost all the debating since April 23 (when the discussion stage closed) has referred to WP policies on consensus. However I suggest we take time to look at the actual texts and see how they can apply to this case. If we can be a bit more precise and less POV in our approach we may be able to get closer to agreement. Do we agree that the key policy here is WP:PRACTICAL? This states:
My interpretation - a course of action that satisfies 86 percent is better than one that satisfies 66 percent. Reasonable enough. (What it doesn't say - to state the obvious - is that a course of action that satisfies 46 percent is better than one that satisfies 66 percent.)
What other WP texts are relevant here? Would anyone like to point us to any other policies that may be useful in this situation? Thank you.-- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
In practice, a lot of people look in on an issue and check to see if a (mere) majority exists in favor of their position. However, to find the actual consensus (or what it will end up as), you actually need to carefully consider the strength and quality of the arguments themselves (including any additional concerns that may have been raised along the way), the basis of objection of those who disagree, and in more complex situations, existing documentation in the project namespace should also be checked. If you are volunteering to carry out an action on the basis of rough consensus, only this thorough approach is acceptable.
Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and discussion should continue in an effort to try to negotiate the most favorable compromise that is still practical. In situations with a deadline, a perfect compromise may not have been reached by all participants at the deadline. Nevertheless, a course of action should be chosen that is likely to satisfy the most persons (rather than merely the majority).
New users who are not yet familiar with consensus should realize that a poll (if one is even held) is often more likely to be the start of a discussion than it is to be the end of one! The final course of action is usually decided upon during discussion. This is another reason for providing a rationale during a poll, not just a support. You can then engage in discussion with other contributors and work out an acceptable compromise. This can be very empowering. Provided you do your homework right, at times your opinion alone will be enough to tip the scales, or even decide the issue all on its own!
Consensus among a limited group of editors can not over-ride community consensus on a wider scale. Convincing arguments are needed in order to successfully implement changes to currently established project wide practice or to document changes to established project wide practice. Convincing arguments are those that can be expected to sway the larger community.
As the 66% support for Proposal 1 has been cited as a point of evidence, I believe it's useful to remind us all that WP:Consensus says nothing about poll percentages. A majority (even a sizable majority) of support !votes does not necessarily equal consensus. Existing practice elsewhere on Wikipedia shows this to be the case. For example, the criteria at requests for adminship is that an RFA must pass with "consensus." How is consensus defined there? Well, the RFA guide states, "There is no precise 'pass' or 'fail' percentage.... However, as an approximate guide, you are likely to pass if you achieve at least 75% support. Nominations which receive less than 70% support are unlikely to be successful, except in exceptional circumstances." Now, we shouldn't use guidelines developed for RFA to determine what happens here, but it does provide an interesting point of comparison. The 2-to-1 vote we have here is very impressive, but I'm not convinced that it represents an "overwhelming" consensus by Wikipedia standards. Has anyone seen "consensus" defined in percentage terms anywhere else on Wikipedia? Northwesterner1 ( talk) 05:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
In the discussion which ended on 23 April, some 50 editors expressed opinions. Those opinions must be respected in any decisions that are taken here. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The article size is now back up to 190K. On the talk page, I made a suggestion to move this section elsewhere. The suggestion was supported by DoubleBlue and Pete and received no comment from others. I would like to have other editors' opinions, especially Kleinzach's. I'm trying to help structure the discussion and not doing this for any "tactical" reasons. Quoting from the talk page,
"I'm wondering if we should move the 'Structure of the discussion' section on the main page to this talk page or to a separate page. The centralized discussion is still very hard for newcomers to digest, and partly that is because all the procedural meta-discussion at the top (structure, participation, etc.). It would be better if newcomers could skip past the procedural stuff and get to the questions, proposals, and 'moving forward' section."
In my view, the best solution is to move this section as a whole to the talk page. I understand Kleinzach has some concerns about that. As an alternative, we could keep part of the meta-commentary live on this page, while moving aspects of it that are outdated to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders/Procedural Discussion (archive) with a note about the move. We could also use hide templates, which help with visual appearance, but they don't help with article size. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 22:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible?
Are the placeholders incompatible with the guideline Self-references to avoid?
The guideline generally cautions against making reference to Wikipedia, or to the editable nature of Wikipedia, in main article space.
There was a fair amount of discussion about what specific part(s) of the guideline would apply to the placeholders, and a fair amount of comparison to {{ stub}} tags, {{ expand}} tags, and other tags such as {{ refimprove}}, {{ cleanup}}, which are similar in at least some respects to the placeholders, and are in widespread use.
Nine editors felt the placeholders are compatible with WP:SELF guideline; eleven felt they are not. One editor said he "didn't care"; additionally, two other editors (one "voting" each way) had significant qualifications attached to their positions.
Basic statistics: 50,789 articles placeholders were used to upload 462 images (figure provided by Genisock2) for a success rate of less than 1 percent.
Kleinzach asked: (1) Is it really worth the effort involved in inserting the placeholder in so many pages when there is so little to be gained? and (2) Is it reasonable to display a distracting graphic on 100 pages for the sake of (perhaps) getting a picture on only one of them?
This led to a wide-ranging discussion, much of it aimed at getting more information about how the system was working.
Those who believed the system ineffective argued that placeholders:
Those who believed the system was effective argued that the placeholders:
Others pointed out that statistics not been collected effectively and it was difficult to know whether the placeholder system led to more images being uploaded. ( Gimmetrow, BrownHairedGirl, PC78)
Jmabel suggested starting a specialized WikiProject for acquiring images.
(Summary by Kleinzach)
Northwesterner1 posed the question: Is a biography without a photo of its central subject inadequate? Wikipedia consensus suggests that templates can be used on the main page of articles that have certain types of inadequacies -- POV bias, lack of references, etc. Is a biography without a photo inadequate in the same way?
Eight editors agreed that the answer is generally no: Northwesterner1, Broadweighbabe, Nrswanson, Kleinzach, Pete, Fishal, jaksmata, Guroadrunner. Jaksmata observed that many articles in the Encyclopedia Britannica have no images, and Broadweighbabe and Pete noted that many good articles on Wikipedia don't have photos of their subjects. Two editors disagreed: Phil Sandifer and Geni. They argued that GA/FA reviews require or strongly encourage photos, and that this requirement constitutes evidence that articles without photos are inadequate. Northwester1 countered that articles don't have to be GA-class to meet a baseline Wikipedia standard of adequate and acceptable content.
Two editors, Cherry blossom tree and DoubleBlue, sought to reframe the question. As Cherry blossom tree said, the real questions should be "Are image placeholders inherently pointing to an article's inadequacy?" and "Is this an acceptable side effect?"
So Northwesterner1 posed the subquestions:
An additional question asked whether past discussion about fair use vs. free images indicates consensus that images are necessary. Editors agreed that past discussions were not directly related to the matter at hand.
Overall, the consensus in this section appears clear: Biographies lacking photos of their central subjects are acceptable on Wikipedia. They are incomplete, and they can be improved. But they are not inadequate. The current placeholders do suggest that articles are inadequate. Whether this is an acceptable side effect depends on how we weigh the larger questions at stake in this debate.
(Summary by Northwesterner1. I hope I've done a fair job of it. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 09:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC))
In posing this question, Kleinzach observed that it had engendered heated, polarized debate in the original discussion, with the “pro-box” camp viewing boxes as emphasizing Wikipedia’s function as a storehouse for free content and its status a work in progress and the “anti-box” camp’s concerns as being that the boxes are unattractive and evocative of commercial advertising. As a point of departure for further debate, he asked whether these viewpoints admit of any middle ground and whether perhaps, in this instance, Wikipedia might do well to adopt an ad hoc approach rather than universal rules. The response, while again polarized, was light: Nrswanson responded in opposition to abandoning universal rules, while Jmabel found that concept to embody desirable flexibility. The sole other response came from Guroadrunner, who commented that the greyscale images are offensive to the eyes and that plain text with a border would be preferable. Thus, while the discussion overall did not favor placeholders in their present form, neither did it evoke a clear consensus.
Summary by Drhoehl, who hopes he got it right.
User:Peteforsyth asked what the ideal system would look like if there were no limitations imposed by the MediaWiki software. The discussion solicited 18 comments by 10 different users. There were few differences with the proposals solicited above, either by those generally in favor of image placeholders or by those against, suggesting that technical limitations are not among the main constraints in the discussion.
Even if technical limitations against moving the location of the placeholder were removed, some users preferred the current location at the top of the page. However, a hypothetical move of the request for image (with a small image link) to the bottom of the page was considered an acceptable compromise by four users. Whether shrinking the size of the image placeholder would be a good thing (if possible) was debated, with accessibility issues being raised; the matter was unresolved.
(summary by M.S.Cuthbert)
Hammersoft provided an anecdote about how the image placeholder works in practice. S/he patrols biographies of living persons, removing fair-use images (which are against Wikipedia's policies on BLPs) and replacing them with placeholders. Hammersoft reported that when s/he replaces a fair-use image with a placeholder, the chance that someone will put another fair-use image up on the article is greatly reduced. Hammersoft suggested that this reduced recidivism rate was an overlooked benefit of the placeholders that had not been discussed.
Nrswanson, Northwesterner1, and Broadweighbabe (in the side comments) agreed that there could be some benefit to this use if the trend indeed holds across Wikipedia; however, they said the additional benefit did not outweigh the existing negatives.
Nrswanson, jaksmata, and Kleinzach concluded that there were still many copyright violations in Category:Images of people replacing placeholders, and they didn't see evidence that the image placeholders were working well to keep out unusable images. (See Question 2. Are placeholders successful in soliciting pictures? for related discussion.)
Northwesterner1 and Carcharoth (in the side comments) raised the additional question of whether image placeholders do a disservice by discouraging editors from adding fair-use images to dead person bios. Proponents of the placeholders say that the guidelines suggest limiting their use to BLPs only; however, Northwesterner1 found that 20% of a small sample of articles linked to the female placeholder were dead person bios.
(summary by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC))
GregManninLB suggested using template: Images needed instead of placeholders as currently implemented. The reasoning is that there are other expansion requests acceptable for use in the article namespace in addition to those used in talk namespace. One user ( Jaksmata) said it was “better” but not “acceptable”. Three users ( DoubleBlue, Kleinzach and Guroadrunner) said that it would be better to improve the existing placeholder rather than replace it with the template. DoubleBlue suggested that the template could be used in cases where an image is needed to illustrate some particular aspect of the article outside the infobox. – jaksmata 14:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Some users objected to the separate male and female silhouettes and requested a gender neutral image. Others countered that gender neutral images tend to favour male looking images. User:Nrswanson suggested using an image of a camera rather than a person as a way to avoid this issue and received some support. User:Jaksmata suggested using a blank background.
The text on the image was also discussed. User:Padraic objected to the phrase "click here". Others felt it was necessary, though attempting to replicate a 'clickable link' within the image was also discussed. User:Jaksmata suggested using simply "upload an image". User:DoubleBlue felt that this was not sufficiently specific with regard to the copyright status of the image.
A number of users felt that the current placeholder was too large, arguing that it was overshadowing the article. User:Geni said that any image in an infobox is automatically scaled to 220px in width, and this could not be readily altered. User:Cherry blossom tree suggested a wide but shallow image, which would take up less space. There were also concerns that, whatever the size of the image, the text needed to be readable since most browsers could not scale it. There was general support for the images being 'not bigger than required', though little discussion on what this limit was.
The location of the placeholder was also discussed, with placing it either lower down the page or on the talk page suggested. These steps would somewhat satisfy those who felt the top right corner was too prominent. It was also argued that either of these options would reduce the effectiveness of the placeholder. User:Geni also said that the simplified image upload form requires the uploaded image to replace the placeholder, so the bottom of the page and the talk page would not work.
The upload system was originally developed towards the end of the fair use conflicts and in direct response to editors complaints about the lack of images (see late 2006 early 2007 at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/archive toc). The original proof of concept (see first edits in the history) was then heavily developed through IRC discussion.
It was not however the first placeholder on Wikipedia, that distinction is held by Image:Nocover.png (although it doesn't have the backend built in. This demonstrates that the placeholders have a long history of acceptance in Wikipedia.
A full description of the system can be found at Wikipedia:Upload placeholder images. The system likely has more tricks up its sleeve than you think. Also please click on the image to see what any uploader would see. The system has in some form or another since been adopted by other language wikipedia's including no.wikipedia. A significant number of free images have been uploaded as a result both directly through the system indirectly via things like OTRS and indirectly due to regular editors being reminded of the need for images. The exact appearance of the images has been adapted a number of times in response to various concerns. Further development is always welcome. As well bringing reader's attention to the fact they can help the project it also simplifies the means by which they can do so. The need for this is clearly shown by de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Usability/Test Februar 2006.
As the system grew out of the fair use debates the initial approach was that the image would appear only on articles that would not qualify for a fair use image (living people who made public appearances at least from time to time)
I am adding this section to allow editors who have formulated an opinion about the issues above to comment on concrete solutions. The discussion in the sections above should continue, of course; but I want to make sure we have a space to capture the "vote" of editors who have read through the question statement and the discussion and have an opinion about a concrete course of action. Keep your opinions in this section succinct. If Proposal 1 passes, Proposals 2 and 3 are void. If all proposals fail, then the placeholders images will be retained as is. If you believe the placeholders should be retained as is, just note "disagree" under each proposal. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
If this proposal passes, we edit style guidelines to explicitly disapprove the use of these images on article pages. We also remove the placeholder images from articles where they are currently in place and/or move them to talk pages.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
35 (66%) | 17 (32%) | 1 (2%) |
The following agreed with the proposal that Placeholder images should not be used at all on the main page of articles: Northwesterner1, MarnetteD, Cygnis insignis, Nrswanson, S.dedalus, Myke Cuthbert, Kleinzach, Padraic, Rettetast, Wanderer57, Lexicon, Lini, AStanhope, Espresso Addict, Voceditenore, Sandstein , Kaldari, Ssilvers, NVO, GuillaumeTell, Aboutmovies, Mitico, Peter cohen, PamD, Fishal, hahnch, Pete, penubag, Сасусlе, Johnbod, Jaksmata, Shanes, Billscottbob, Bobak, SilkTork (35).
Those who agreed with the proposal referred back to the initial discussion (6 editors), regarded the placeholders as intrusive, ugly, amateurish, in the wrong place, cluttering, distracting and disruptive (12), thought the placeholders overemphasized the importance of including pictures in articles (3), thought the solicitation should be on the talk page (4), self-referencing (2), thought them ineffective (3) and objected to their semi-automated, systematic dispersal (2).
The following disagreed with the proposal: DoubleBlue, Jobjörn, Garion96, Phil Sandifer, Mangostar, Lincolnite, LtPowers, Howcheng, Omegatron, BrownHairedGirl, CComMack, Johnleemk, Terraxos, Bkonrad, Sherool, Sceptre, Jauerback (17).
Those who disagreed with the proposal made the following points: the placeholders were useful and effective (10 editors), had not been used long enough to assess (1), useful for deterring non-free images (1), similar to other maintenance tags (1). Their use should be discretionary but not prohibited (1). It was "ludicrous to allow style guidelines to trump an effective way of building the encyclopedia" (1). WP "must promote free content" (1).
One editor abstained: Guroadrunner (1).
In side comments, it was clarified that the discussion applied to the image placeholders ad variants listed in the archive ( section). Further discussions were largely procedural.
(summary by Kleinzach)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 2 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about the nature of any modifications.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
22 (81%) | 1 (4%) | 4 (15%) |
There is clear consensus that if placeholder images are retained, they should be modified in appearance. Discussion on those changes has begun under Question 8. The reasons given for wanting the placeholder images modified are:
(Note: most editors who support changing do not support support all of these reasons.) – jaksmata 15:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 3 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about how the methods should change.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
16 (57%) | 12 (43%) | 0 (0%) |
This discussion was divided with a small majority of those taking part arguing in favour of the proposition. This is a somewhat simplistic description, however, as there was significant common ground between between some of the supporters and some of the opposers and also significant differences between some of the people nominally in the same category.
One issue raised repeatedly was that of the use of semi-automated tools such as Auto Wiki Browser to add the placeholders. Some people objected in principle to automation. User:Peteforsyth felt that automated placement implied that the placeholders could not be removed. Everyone who addressed the issue, whether supporting or opposing the proposal, agreed that fully automatic use should not be attempted because placeholders are not suitable for every article. Some users pointed to errors that had been made in the past.
The second major issue discussed was whether or not placeholders should be optional. Again, there was widespread consensus with no-one arguing that they should not be. Many editors advised users who did not think that placeholders were appropriate for a particular article or set of articles simply to remove them and User:Geni maintained that the use of placeholders had always been optional. On the other hand, some users pointed to occasions when a removed placeholder had been re-added. User:Bkonrad (older ≠ wiser) suggested replacing the placeholder with something to indicate that it should not be added again. One unresolved issue was whether to leave the adding of the placeholder to an article's regular editors (per User:Northwesterner1) or whether to allow it to be added by other editors where there had been no opt-out (per current practice.)
User:Northwesterner1 also argued that placeholders should be removed if unsuccessful after a period of time. This was supported by two users but User:Mangostar argued that chance of someone with an image seeing the placeholder remains and User:Jobjörn argued that it should remain until the issue is addressed.
(Summary by User:Cherry blossom tree)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 4 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about extending the placeholders to a wider range of articles. Other areas where a free photo could reasonably be created (say weaponry likely to appear in museums) should also have placeholder systems built for them. (proposal added by Genisock2, modified by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC))
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
0 (0%) | 9 (100%) | 0 (0%) |
This proposal has unanimously failed. – jaksmata 15:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Two additional proposals were put forth in the final 48 hours of this discussion:
Neither proposal received significant discussion. They were supported only by the proposer, GregManninLB. They received a few comments and questions by editors who seemed inclined to oppose the proposals but did not explicitly provide a !vote.
(summary by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC))
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Replace this image female and Replace this image male are the latest versions of placeholder boxes that have been systematically added to 50,789 living biography articles lacking photos of their central subjects. The boxes link to a specialized upload form and license template system soliciting pertinent photos or illustrations from readers.
Some of these placeholder boxes have been removed from articles, and concerns and objections have been put forward. These include:
Proponents of the system have stated that the system is already effective at soliciting new photos. They are in the process of documenting this claim. They state:
Should the addition of this box be allowed? Does the placeholder system and graphic image need to be improved to satisfy policies and guidelines for inclusion? Is it appropriate to some kinds of biographies, but not to others?
How we got here
Prior discussion has taken place in various corners: user talk pages, image talk pages, article talk pages, and at some wikiprojects.
From April 9 to 11, 2008 there was a "Proposal to suspend all further use of this graphic on article pages pending a centralized discussion" ( archived here) at Image talk:Replace this image female.svg. The proposal passed with 18 editors in agreement, 12 editors in disagreement, and 2 abstentions.
User:Kleinzach closed the previous discussion on April 11 and provided a thorough summary in the section Summing up. (The summary is recommended reading; it's nice and succinct.) We then began this centralized discussion. Pending the outcome of this discussion, some editors have agreed to suspend their addition or removal of this placeholder box as we look toward a broader consensus.
Conclusion
As agreed, discussion of the 'Questions' and 'Proposals' concluded on Wednesday, April 23 (12.00 GMT/UTC).
We are now determining what the future course of action should be. Is there consensus for Proposal 1 to remove all placeholders? If not, can we modify the system to deal with the main objections? How can we reach agreement about how to move forward?
How shall we develop this discussion? Should we do it issue by issue? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned by the lack of participation. Do those who participated in the earlier, more procedural decision (whether to interrupt image placement pending discussion) feel that they've already had their say? We should be sure that those who are interested express their views here. Also, have we done enough outreach to broaden the discussion? I think contacting the Footballers and Opera singers and Oregon WikiProjects (which discussed the issue) would be worthwhile, also the Free Images WikiProject, and possibly writing something up for the Wikipedia Sign Post. (Something that has affected 50k articles, and stands to affect many more, seems worthy of a Signpost mention to me.) Thoughts? Should I do some of this outreach? Is anybody else doing it, or interested in doing it? (I think our conclusion, whatever it is, should reflect the views of as broad a group as possible.) - Pete ( talk) 05:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>Signpost article: I pitched it here, it's technically past the deadline but I haven't gotten any response about whether that's a problem, and it seems that the content is still under discussion. On that page you will find a link to my draft. I think if a couple other people endorse the draft (with some editing if you like, feel free), I think that would enhance the chances of it getting published. Just a hunch. - Pete ( talk) 04:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I realised that no-one had advertised this discussion on the mailing list, so I've just done so. -- Cherry blossom tree 17:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This discussion was briefly mentioned on the most recent (episode 46, I think) Wikipedia Weekly podcast. One person said she was unsure, one said the placeholders were ugly but then the discussion moved over to discussing other image-related issues. -- Cherry blossom tree 10:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I was completely unaware that this was going on until just now. Did I miss the discussion? Wizardman 22:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd urge everybody to exercise restraint. If Wizardman wants to add any comments to any pages under a Comment after the discussion closed heading that should be fine. We've already had one of them. (I think we'll soon be archiving them so it should be soon.) The actual number of votes in the proposals is not significant so there is no reason why Wizardman shouldn't take part in the discussion. (Welcome!)
As DoubleBlue says the most important part of the discussion is about to begin. First we have to approve the summaries. Then we have to look at the consensus, the so-called 'rough consensus'. that has emerged through the discussion. IMO our objective will be to meet the concerns of the majority while offering a new point of departure to the minority, though each of us may think about this in a different way. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 02:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: that Insearchofintelligentlife ( talk · contribs) and Divinediscourse ( talk · contribs) are the same person. Thatcher 21:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The debate is winding down and some people have been talking about setting a closing date. Any thoughts about this? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 13:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
As someone who's spoken of "seeking a broader consensus" several times, let me clarify: I was never saying we should seek unanimity, but rather that we should broaden the number of voices in the discussion, to be sure all points of view had been heard, that we fully understood the history of the system, etc. I am now satisfied that has occurred. I am just back from 2+ days away, and see that nothing substantially new has been added to the discussion. I think it's time to set a date for conclusion. - Pete ( talk) 05:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
We need to adopt a way of summarizing the discussion that is rigorously accurate, fair and neutral. IMO the simplest way to do this is to do separate summaries for each section (Questions, Proposals and miscellaneous). What do people think? Is this OK, or is there a better method available that will win more general acceptance? (See also Pete's suggestion above) -- Kleinzach ( talk) 09:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Seems like there is general agreement on methods. I guess we should aim to write the summaries over the next 24 to 36 hours or so. Sign-ups below. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 00:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The summaries look good! (Obviously a talented group of editors here!) Maybe we should check them now? if anyone has any suggestions/criticisms/objections about the summaries they should make them known here as soon as possible. (Pete: Is the Q1 summary a bit on the long side at 510 words?) Meanwhile I am getting on with Q2 (sorry for the delay). Best. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure we will be soon talking about 'consensus' and how WP policies apply to this discussion, but let's approve the summaries first, OK? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I am working on the history section. It is just taking a little longer than I expected and I have had a busy RL week. DoubleBlue ( Talk)
The summary of Proposal 1 was blanked here and reverted by Johnbod. Is a warning appropriate or should further action be taken? We have come to (potentially) the most difficult part of the discussion - it's essential that the opinions of all participants are respected. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 03:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Genisock2 has now been moving my comments in Section 12 here. I think the intention - as always - is to disrupt this discussion. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 00:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
For Geni and anyone else with concerns... Do you believe the summaries are an objective and accurate record of the discussion that transpired on each question and proposal? If not, could you please propose alternative summaries for any section that you believe is unfair? We're not asking "Do you think consensus says we should remove the placeholders?" or "Do you think the straw polls were fair?" or anything else. The discussion will continue, and you'll have plenty of opportunity to continue to state your opinion. We're just trying to get the summaries approved as a neutral record of events, the same way people on a committee might ratify the minutes of the previous meeting before beginning the next meeting. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
We have not been able, so far, to conclude this centralized discussion. Almost all the debating since April 23 (when the discussion stage closed) has referred to WP policies on consensus. However I suggest we take time to look at the actual texts and see how they can apply to this case. If we can be a bit more precise and less POV in our approach we may be able to get closer to agreement. Do we agree that the key policy here is WP:PRACTICAL? This states:
My interpretation - a course of action that satisfies 86 percent is better than one that satisfies 66 percent. Reasonable enough. (What it doesn't say - to state the obvious - is that a course of action that satisfies 46 percent is better than one that satisfies 66 percent.)
What other WP texts are relevant here? Would anyone like to point us to any other policies that may be useful in this situation? Thank you.-- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
In practice, a lot of people look in on an issue and check to see if a (mere) majority exists in favor of their position. However, to find the actual consensus (or what it will end up as), you actually need to carefully consider the strength and quality of the arguments themselves (including any additional concerns that may have been raised along the way), the basis of objection of those who disagree, and in more complex situations, existing documentation in the project namespace should also be checked. If you are volunteering to carry out an action on the basis of rough consensus, only this thorough approach is acceptable.
Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and discussion should continue in an effort to try to negotiate the most favorable compromise that is still practical. In situations with a deadline, a perfect compromise may not have been reached by all participants at the deadline. Nevertheless, a course of action should be chosen that is likely to satisfy the most persons (rather than merely the majority).
New users who are not yet familiar with consensus should realize that a poll (if one is even held) is often more likely to be the start of a discussion than it is to be the end of one! The final course of action is usually decided upon during discussion. This is another reason for providing a rationale during a poll, not just a support. You can then engage in discussion with other contributors and work out an acceptable compromise. This can be very empowering. Provided you do your homework right, at times your opinion alone will be enough to tip the scales, or even decide the issue all on its own!
Consensus among a limited group of editors can not over-ride community consensus on a wider scale. Convincing arguments are needed in order to successfully implement changes to currently established project wide practice or to document changes to established project wide practice. Convincing arguments are those that can be expected to sway the larger community.
As the 66% support for Proposal 1 has been cited as a point of evidence, I believe it's useful to remind us all that WP:Consensus says nothing about poll percentages. A majority (even a sizable majority) of support !votes does not necessarily equal consensus. Existing practice elsewhere on Wikipedia shows this to be the case. For example, the criteria at requests for adminship is that an RFA must pass with "consensus." How is consensus defined there? Well, the RFA guide states, "There is no precise 'pass' or 'fail' percentage.... However, as an approximate guide, you are likely to pass if you achieve at least 75% support. Nominations which receive less than 70% support are unlikely to be successful, except in exceptional circumstances." Now, we shouldn't use guidelines developed for RFA to determine what happens here, but it does provide an interesting point of comparison. The 2-to-1 vote we have here is very impressive, but I'm not convinced that it represents an "overwhelming" consensus by Wikipedia standards. Has anyone seen "consensus" defined in percentage terms anywhere else on Wikipedia? Northwesterner1 ( talk) 05:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
In the discussion which ended on 23 April, some 50 editors expressed opinions. Those opinions must be respected in any decisions that are taken here. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The article size is now back up to 190K. On the talk page, I made a suggestion to move this section elsewhere. The suggestion was supported by DoubleBlue and Pete and received no comment from others. I would like to have other editors' opinions, especially Kleinzach's. I'm trying to help structure the discussion and not doing this for any "tactical" reasons. Quoting from the talk page,
"I'm wondering if we should move the 'Structure of the discussion' section on the main page to this talk page or to a separate page. The centralized discussion is still very hard for newcomers to digest, and partly that is because all the procedural meta-discussion at the top (structure, participation, etc.). It would be better if newcomers could skip past the procedural stuff and get to the questions, proposals, and 'moving forward' section."
In my view, the best solution is to move this section as a whole to the talk page. I understand Kleinzach has some concerns about that. As an alternative, we could keep part of the meta-commentary live on this page, while moving aspects of it that are outdated to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders/Procedural Discussion (archive) with a note about the move. We could also use hide templates, which help with visual appearance, but they don't help with article size. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 22:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible?
Are the placeholders incompatible with the guideline Self-references to avoid?
The guideline generally cautions against making reference to Wikipedia, or to the editable nature of Wikipedia, in main article space.
There was a fair amount of discussion about what specific part(s) of the guideline would apply to the placeholders, and a fair amount of comparison to {{ stub}} tags, {{ expand}} tags, and other tags such as {{ refimprove}}, {{ cleanup}}, which are similar in at least some respects to the placeholders, and are in widespread use.
Nine editors felt the placeholders are compatible with WP:SELF guideline; eleven felt they are not. One editor said he "didn't care"; additionally, two other editors (one "voting" each way) had significant qualifications attached to their positions.
Basic statistics: 50,789 articles placeholders were used to upload 462 images (figure provided by Genisock2) for a success rate of less than 1 percent.
Kleinzach asked: (1) Is it really worth the effort involved in inserting the placeholder in so many pages when there is so little to be gained? and (2) Is it reasonable to display a distracting graphic on 100 pages for the sake of (perhaps) getting a picture on only one of them?
This led to a wide-ranging discussion, much of it aimed at getting more information about how the system was working.
Those who believed the system ineffective argued that placeholders:
Those who believed the system was effective argued that the placeholders:
Others pointed out that statistics not been collected effectively and it was difficult to know whether the placeholder system led to more images being uploaded. ( Gimmetrow, BrownHairedGirl, PC78)
Jmabel suggested starting a specialized WikiProject for acquiring images.
(Summary by Kleinzach)
Northwesterner1 posed the question: Is a biography without a photo of its central subject inadequate? Wikipedia consensus suggests that templates can be used on the main page of articles that have certain types of inadequacies -- POV bias, lack of references, etc. Is a biography without a photo inadequate in the same way?
Eight editors agreed that the answer is generally no: Northwesterner1, Broadweighbabe, Nrswanson, Kleinzach, Pete, Fishal, jaksmata, Guroadrunner. Jaksmata observed that many articles in the Encyclopedia Britannica have no images, and Broadweighbabe and Pete noted that many good articles on Wikipedia don't have photos of their subjects. Two editors disagreed: Phil Sandifer and Geni. They argued that GA/FA reviews require or strongly encourage photos, and that this requirement constitutes evidence that articles without photos are inadequate. Northwester1 countered that articles don't have to be GA-class to meet a baseline Wikipedia standard of adequate and acceptable content.
Two editors, Cherry blossom tree and DoubleBlue, sought to reframe the question. As Cherry blossom tree said, the real questions should be "Are image placeholders inherently pointing to an article's inadequacy?" and "Is this an acceptable side effect?"
So Northwesterner1 posed the subquestions:
An additional question asked whether past discussion about fair use vs. free images indicates consensus that images are necessary. Editors agreed that past discussions were not directly related to the matter at hand.
Overall, the consensus in this section appears clear: Biographies lacking photos of their central subjects are acceptable on Wikipedia. They are incomplete, and they can be improved. But they are not inadequate. The current placeholders do suggest that articles are inadequate. Whether this is an acceptable side effect depends on how we weigh the larger questions at stake in this debate.
(Summary by Northwesterner1. I hope I've done a fair job of it. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 09:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC))
In posing this question, Kleinzach observed that it had engendered heated, polarized debate in the original discussion, with the “pro-box” camp viewing boxes as emphasizing Wikipedia’s function as a storehouse for free content and its status a work in progress and the “anti-box” camp’s concerns as being that the boxes are unattractive and evocative of commercial advertising. As a point of departure for further debate, he asked whether these viewpoints admit of any middle ground and whether perhaps, in this instance, Wikipedia might do well to adopt an ad hoc approach rather than universal rules. The response, while again polarized, was light: Nrswanson responded in opposition to abandoning universal rules, while Jmabel found that concept to embody desirable flexibility. The sole other response came from Guroadrunner, who commented that the greyscale images are offensive to the eyes and that plain text with a border would be preferable. Thus, while the discussion overall did not favor placeholders in their present form, neither did it evoke a clear consensus.
Summary by Drhoehl, who hopes he got it right.
User:Peteforsyth asked what the ideal system would look like if there were no limitations imposed by the MediaWiki software. The discussion solicited 18 comments by 10 different users. There were few differences with the proposals solicited above, either by those generally in favor of image placeholders or by those against, suggesting that technical limitations are not among the main constraints in the discussion.
Even if technical limitations against moving the location of the placeholder were removed, some users preferred the current location at the top of the page. However, a hypothetical move of the request for image (with a small image link) to the bottom of the page was considered an acceptable compromise by four users. Whether shrinking the size of the image placeholder would be a good thing (if possible) was debated, with accessibility issues being raised; the matter was unresolved.
(summary by M.S.Cuthbert)
Hammersoft provided an anecdote about how the image placeholder works in practice. S/he patrols biographies of living persons, removing fair-use images (which are against Wikipedia's policies on BLPs) and replacing them with placeholders. Hammersoft reported that when s/he replaces a fair-use image with a placeholder, the chance that someone will put another fair-use image up on the article is greatly reduced. Hammersoft suggested that this reduced recidivism rate was an overlooked benefit of the placeholders that had not been discussed.
Nrswanson, Northwesterner1, and Broadweighbabe (in the side comments) agreed that there could be some benefit to this use if the trend indeed holds across Wikipedia; however, they said the additional benefit did not outweigh the existing negatives.
Nrswanson, jaksmata, and Kleinzach concluded that there were still many copyright violations in Category:Images of people replacing placeholders, and they didn't see evidence that the image placeholders were working well to keep out unusable images. (See Question 2. Are placeholders successful in soliciting pictures? for related discussion.)
Northwesterner1 and Carcharoth (in the side comments) raised the additional question of whether image placeholders do a disservice by discouraging editors from adding fair-use images to dead person bios. Proponents of the placeholders say that the guidelines suggest limiting their use to BLPs only; however, Northwesterner1 found that 20% of a small sample of articles linked to the female placeholder were dead person bios.
(summary by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC))
GregManninLB suggested using template: Images needed instead of placeholders as currently implemented. The reasoning is that there are other expansion requests acceptable for use in the article namespace in addition to those used in talk namespace. One user ( Jaksmata) said it was “better” but not “acceptable”. Three users ( DoubleBlue, Kleinzach and Guroadrunner) said that it would be better to improve the existing placeholder rather than replace it with the template. DoubleBlue suggested that the template could be used in cases where an image is needed to illustrate some particular aspect of the article outside the infobox. – jaksmata 14:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Some users objected to the separate male and female silhouettes and requested a gender neutral image. Others countered that gender neutral images tend to favour male looking images. User:Nrswanson suggested using an image of a camera rather than a person as a way to avoid this issue and received some support. User:Jaksmata suggested using a blank background.
The text on the image was also discussed. User:Padraic objected to the phrase "click here". Others felt it was necessary, though attempting to replicate a 'clickable link' within the image was also discussed. User:Jaksmata suggested using simply "upload an image". User:DoubleBlue felt that this was not sufficiently specific with regard to the copyright status of the image.
A number of users felt that the current placeholder was too large, arguing that it was overshadowing the article. User:Geni said that any image in an infobox is automatically scaled to 220px in width, and this could not be readily altered. User:Cherry blossom tree suggested a wide but shallow image, which would take up less space. There were also concerns that, whatever the size of the image, the text needed to be readable since most browsers could not scale it. There was general support for the images being 'not bigger than required', though little discussion on what this limit was.
The location of the placeholder was also discussed, with placing it either lower down the page or on the talk page suggested. These steps would somewhat satisfy those who felt the top right corner was too prominent. It was also argued that either of these options would reduce the effectiveness of the placeholder. User:Geni also said that the simplified image upload form requires the uploaded image to replace the placeholder, so the bottom of the page and the talk page would not work.
The upload system was originally developed towards the end of the fair use conflicts and in direct response to editors complaints about the lack of images (see late 2006 early 2007 at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/archive toc). The original proof of concept (see first edits in the history) was then heavily developed through IRC discussion.
It was not however the first placeholder on Wikipedia, that distinction is held by Image:Nocover.png (although it doesn't have the backend built in. This demonstrates that the placeholders have a long history of acceptance in Wikipedia.
A full description of the system can be found at Wikipedia:Upload placeholder images. The system likely has more tricks up its sleeve than you think. Also please click on the image to see what any uploader would see. The system has in some form or another since been adopted by other language wikipedia's including no.wikipedia. A significant number of free images have been uploaded as a result both directly through the system indirectly via things like OTRS and indirectly due to regular editors being reminded of the need for images. The exact appearance of the images has been adapted a number of times in response to various concerns. Further development is always welcome. As well bringing reader's attention to the fact they can help the project it also simplifies the means by which they can do so. The need for this is clearly shown by de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Usability/Test Februar 2006.
As the system grew out of the fair use debates the initial approach was that the image would appear only on articles that would not qualify for a fair use image (living people who made public appearances at least from time to time)
I am adding this section to allow editors who have formulated an opinion about the issues above to comment on concrete solutions. The discussion in the sections above should continue, of course; but I want to make sure we have a space to capture the "vote" of editors who have read through the question statement and the discussion and have an opinion about a concrete course of action. Keep your opinions in this section succinct. If Proposal 1 passes, Proposals 2 and 3 are void. If all proposals fail, then the placeholders images will be retained as is. If you believe the placeholders should be retained as is, just note "disagree" under each proposal. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
If this proposal passes, we edit style guidelines to explicitly disapprove the use of these images on article pages. We also remove the placeholder images from articles where they are currently in place and/or move them to talk pages.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
35 (66%) | 17 (32%) | 1 (2%) |
The following agreed with the proposal that Placeholder images should not be used at all on the main page of articles: Northwesterner1, MarnetteD, Cygnis insignis, Nrswanson, S.dedalus, Myke Cuthbert, Kleinzach, Padraic, Rettetast, Wanderer57, Lexicon, Lini, AStanhope, Espresso Addict, Voceditenore, Sandstein , Kaldari, Ssilvers, NVO, GuillaumeTell, Aboutmovies, Mitico, Peter cohen, PamD, Fishal, hahnch, Pete, penubag, Сасусlе, Johnbod, Jaksmata, Shanes, Billscottbob, Bobak, SilkTork (35).
Those who agreed with the proposal referred back to the initial discussion (6 editors), regarded the placeholders as intrusive, ugly, amateurish, in the wrong place, cluttering, distracting and disruptive (12), thought the placeholders overemphasized the importance of including pictures in articles (3), thought the solicitation should be on the talk page (4), self-referencing (2), thought them ineffective (3) and objected to their semi-automated, systematic dispersal (2).
The following disagreed with the proposal: DoubleBlue, Jobjörn, Garion96, Phil Sandifer, Mangostar, Lincolnite, LtPowers, Howcheng, Omegatron, BrownHairedGirl, CComMack, Johnleemk, Terraxos, Bkonrad, Sherool, Sceptre, Jauerback (17).
Those who disagreed with the proposal made the following points: the placeholders were useful and effective (10 editors), had not been used long enough to assess (1), useful for deterring non-free images (1), similar to other maintenance tags (1). Their use should be discretionary but not prohibited (1). It was "ludicrous to allow style guidelines to trump an effective way of building the encyclopedia" (1). WP "must promote free content" (1).
One editor abstained: Guroadrunner (1).
In side comments, it was clarified that the discussion applied to the image placeholders ad variants listed in the archive ( section). Further discussions were largely procedural.
(summary by Kleinzach)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 2 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about the nature of any modifications.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
22 (81%) | 1 (4%) | 4 (15%) |
There is clear consensus that if placeholder images are retained, they should be modified in appearance. Discussion on those changes has begun under Question 8. The reasons given for wanting the placeholder images modified are:
(Note: most editors who support changing do not support support all of these reasons.) – jaksmata 15:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 3 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about how the methods should change.
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
16 (57%) | 12 (43%) | 0 (0%) |
This discussion was divided with a small majority of those taking part arguing in favour of the proposition. This is a somewhat simplistic description, however, as there was significant common ground between between some of the supporters and some of the opposers and also significant differences between some of the people nominally in the same category.
One issue raised repeatedly was that of the use of semi-automated tools such as Auto Wiki Browser to add the placeholders. Some people objected in principle to automation. User:Peteforsyth felt that automated placement implied that the placeholders could not be removed. Everyone who addressed the issue, whether supporting or opposing the proposal, agreed that fully automatic use should not be attempted because placeholders are not suitable for every article. Some users pointed to errors that had been made in the past.
The second major issue discussed was whether or not placeholders should be optional. Again, there was widespread consensus with no-one arguing that they should not be. Many editors advised users who did not think that placeholders were appropriate for a particular article or set of articles simply to remove them and User:Geni maintained that the use of placeholders had always been optional. On the other hand, some users pointed to occasions when a removed placeholder had been re-added. User:Bkonrad (older ≠ wiser) suggested replacing the placeholder with something to indicate that it should not be added again. One unresolved issue was whether to leave the adding of the placeholder to an article's regular editors (per User:Northwesterner1) or whether to allow it to be added by other editors where there had been no opt-out (per current practice.)
User:Northwesterner1 also argued that placeholders should be removed if unsuccessful after a period of time. This was supported by two users but User:Mangostar argued that chance of someone with an image seeing the placeholder remains and User:Jobjörn argued that it should remain until the issue is addressed.
(Summary by User:Cherry blossom tree)
If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 4 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about extending the placeholders to a wider range of articles. Other areas where a free photo could reasonably be created (say weaponry likely to appear in museums) should also have placeholder systems built for them. (proposal added by Genisock2, modified by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC))
Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
---|---|---|
0 (0%) | 9 (100%) | 0 (0%) |
This proposal has unanimously failed. – jaksmata 15:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Two additional proposals were put forth in the final 48 hours of this discussion:
Neither proposal received significant discussion. They were supported only by the proposer, GregManninLB. They received a few comments and questions by editors who seemed inclined to oppose the proposals but did not explicitly provide a !vote.
(summary by Northwesterner1 ( talk) 18:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC))