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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in (proto-)Spanish (Castilian), written in Latin but by a 'Spanish' person, or written in Latin but discovered in Spain (
WP:OCLOCATION) or preserved in Spain (by collection). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The issue with this proposal (as with the other manuscript category renaming proposals) is that the category does not refer to language nor to discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Spain—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
What Marcocapelle said. Of course, it is possible to create subcategories of Latin manuscripts (and there already are). Compare
Category:Latin chronicles about France: the texts are about France, but they are written in Latin. A lot of items which were categorised as 'Spanish manuscripts' were written in Latin, and not about Spain, but about the Bible or patristics, for example, so their connection with 'Spain' (especially before 'Spain' existed in arguably 1479) is questionable.
I do not think it is clear, at all, from the items in this category tree
Category:Manuscripts by area as a whole that they are meant to group manuscripts by area of production. As I said about
Category:German manuscripts: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. In many cases we don't even know where it was "originally" written, because the
provenance is often unclear. You can say based on internal linguistic arguments in what kind of language milieu the author lived or was influenced by, but that doesn't necessary tell you where the author actually put the pen to paper (or some other writing materials).
Elsewhere in the category tree, there has been significant mixups between manuscripts by area, language, topic, type, collection as well, so it is not at all clear what "area" even means, and it is explained differently in different parts of the tree. So it makes sense to go for something that is actually
WP:DEFINING, like language in this case.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 18:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Association of African Universities
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Convert, membership of an organization is hardly ever a defining characteristic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Listify This is a industry trade association and is not defining per
WP:OCASSOC. (In contrast, accreditation authorities are usually defining.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:55, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Swiss manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT. 2 P. These mss aren't necessarily written in Switzerland or kept there (
Cgm 558 is in
Munich), but they are about (the history of) Switzerland.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Italian manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in Italian, written in Latin or Greek but by an Italian, or written in Latin or Greek but discovered in Italy (
WP:OCLOCATION). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The category does not refer to language, nor discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Italy—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:German manuscripts
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Category:French manuscripts
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The category does not refer to language, nor to topic of the manuscript. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in France—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Greek manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. These manuscripts are written in the Greek language, they are not necessarily about Greece or the Greeks, nor necessarily written by Greeks or in Greece, nor necessarily found or preserved in Greece (this is especially true about the Septuagint manuscripts). See also
Category:Greek-language chronicles.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per actual content, and current category name is too ambiguous.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Finnish chronicles
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Category:Scandinavian manuscripts
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That's actually a great one to argue against manuscripts/chronicles by area/location/region/country, thanks!
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Swedish manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. It's better to rename/rescope this to be 'about Sweden', because most of these are written in Latin, not Swedish, and some are preserved in collections outside Sweden. We're more talking about chronicles than the manuscripts of those chronicles anyway. See also
Fayenatic and I talking about it elsewhere.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per actual content, and a less ambiguous category name.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Middle American pictorial manuscripts
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It sounds good. Originally, I named the category that way following John B. Glass's and Donald Robertson's classic work on the topic, "A Census of Native Middle American Pictorial Manuscripts" (1975). However, the suggested change seems sensible and makes the category more accurate for current readers.
Tlakwilo (
talk) 22:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bengali-language manuscripts
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Category:Rulers of Monaco
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus.
✗plicit 07:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. 'Ruler' is a better catch-all term for the lords and princes of Monaco, which is why it is
more widely used.
Srnec (
talk) 00:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alemannic rulers
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Rename, most of them are described as kings.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. No need to call dukes monarchs.
Srnec (
talk) 00:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
In the earliest middle ages the words duke and king were used interchangeably to refer to the heads of Germanic tribes outside of
Francia. They were monarchs in any case, as they were independent hereditary rulers.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
No, not every early medieval duke was a monarch. Nothing is gained by calling the Alemannic rulers 'monarchs'. Nothing. It is useless conformity.
Srnec (
talk) 00:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Meanwhile, 'ruler' still appears to be a vague ambiguous catch-all for whatever anyone wants it to mean. From emperor for life with absolute hereditary power (which can only be challenged by violence) down to local elected mayor for a 1-year fixed term (but removable from office by formal legal procedure if they engage in some sort of mismanagement or misconduct). The list of offices for which I have seen 'ruler' used as a synonym on English Wikipedia still keeps growing. If anyone writes that Bar was a ruler of Foo, I still have no idea what Bar's position in Fooian society was. Fortunately, we have already cleared up most ambiguities to something more
WP:DEFINING.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:4th-century rulers in Europe
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Category:Norwegian manuscripts
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Rename per category description, and a less ambiguous category name.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:American football teams in El Paso, Texas
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Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:58, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cemeteries in Odesa
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Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. (Open to broader discussion about the parent categories.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:La Ferme Célébrités participants
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Sports in the United States by city
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Oppose per
WP:COMMONNAME. Almost nobody calls a city or town a "populated place" in general conversation; it's "city" or "town". If you must rename it, have it be "By Municipality"-it's certainly more commonly used than "populated place."
Tom Danson (
talk) 21:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Tom, "Municipality" has a different definition in every state. "Populated place" is defined by USGS and is used in WP to define all cities, towns, villages, etc. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support all Given the precedent, these can probably be speedily renamed.--
User:Namiba 13:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support all there are numerous types of populated places in the USA and this name covers that better without naming which type, the definition if which is not important for the category.
Djflem (
talk)
Comment I thought the splitter was meant to be at the end, which most of these adhere to?
Crowsus (
talk) 09:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Doping cases in Australian soccer
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Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
S.A. Julio (
talk) 09:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:01, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Kapiti Coast District
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The result of the discussion was:rename, but this seems to have been done out of process. (
non-admin closure) –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 10:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in (proto-)Spanish (Castilian), written in Latin but by a 'Spanish' person, or written in Latin but discovered in Spain (
WP:OCLOCATION) or preserved in Spain (by collection). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The issue with this proposal (as with the other manuscript category renaming proposals) is that the category does not refer to language nor to discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Spain—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
What Marcocapelle said. Of course, it is possible to create subcategories of Latin manuscripts (and there already are). Compare
Category:Latin chronicles about France: the texts are about France, but they are written in Latin. A lot of items which were categorised as 'Spanish manuscripts' were written in Latin, and not about Spain, but about the Bible or patristics, for example, so their connection with 'Spain' (especially before 'Spain' existed in arguably 1479) is questionable.
I do not think it is clear, at all, from the items in this category tree
Category:Manuscripts by area as a whole that they are meant to group manuscripts by area of production. As I said about
Category:German manuscripts: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. In many cases we don't even know where it was "originally" written, because the
provenance is often unclear. You can say based on internal linguistic arguments in what kind of language milieu the author lived or was influenced by, but that doesn't necessary tell you where the author actually put the pen to paper (or some other writing materials).
Elsewhere in the category tree, there has been significant mixups between manuscripts by area, language, topic, type, collection as well, so it is not at all clear what "area" even means, and it is explained differently in different parts of the tree. So it makes sense to go for something that is actually
WP:DEFINING, like language in this case.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 18:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Association of African Universities
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Convert, membership of an organization is hardly ever a defining characteristic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Listify This is a industry trade association and is not defining per
WP:OCASSOC. (In contrast, accreditation authorities are usually defining.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:55, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Swiss manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT. 2 P. These mss aren't necessarily written in Switzerland or kept there (
Cgm 558 is in
Munich), but they are about (the history of) Switzerland.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Italian manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in Italian, written in Latin or Greek but by an Italian, or written in Latin or Greek but discovered in Italy (
WP:OCLOCATION). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The category does not refer to language, nor discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Italy—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:German manuscripts
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Category:French manuscripts
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The category does not refer to language, nor to topic of the manuscript. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in France—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category.
SJLahey (
talk) 12:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Greek manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. These manuscripts are written in the Greek language, they are not necessarily about Greece or the Greeks, nor necessarily written by Greeks or in Greece, nor necessarily found or preserved in Greece (this is especially true about the Septuagint manuscripts). See also
Category:Greek-language chronicles.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per actual content, and current category name is too ambiguous.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Finnish chronicles
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Category:Scandinavian manuscripts
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That's actually a great one to argue against manuscripts/chronicles by area/location/region/country, thanks!
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Swedish manuscripts
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CATSPECIFIC. It's better to rename/rescope this to be 'about Sweden', because most of these are written in Latin, not Swedish, and some are preserved in collections outside Sweden. We're more talking about chronicles than the manuscripts of those chronicles anyway. See also
Fayenatic and I talking about it elsewhere.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per actual content, and a less ambiguous category name.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Middle American pictorial manuscripts
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It sounds good. Originally, I named the category that way following John B. Glass's and Donald Robertson's classic work on the topic, "A Census of Native Middle American Pictorial Manuscripts" (1975). However, the suggested change seems sensible and makes the category more accurate for current readers.
Tlakwilo (
talk) 22:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bengali-language manuscripts
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Category:Rulers of Monaco
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus.
✗plicit 07:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. 'Ruler' is a better catch-all term for the lords and princes of Monaco, which is why it is
more widely used.
Srnec (
talk) 00:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alemannic rulers
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Rename, most of them are described as kings.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. No need to call dukes monarchs.
Srnec (
talk) 00:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
In the earliest middle ages the words duke and king were used interchangeably to refer to the heads of Germanic tribes outside of
Francia. They were monarchs in any case, as they were independent hereditary rulers.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
No, not every early medieval duke was a monarch. Nothing is gained by calling the Alemannic rulers 'monarchs'. Nothing. It is useless conformity.
Srnec (
talk) 00:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Meanwhile, 'ruler' still appears to be a vague ambiguous catch-all for whatever anyone wants it to mean. From emperor for life with absolute hereditary power (which can only be challenged by violence) down to local elected mayor for a 1-year fixed term (but removable from office by formal legal procedure if they engage in some sort of mismanagement or misconduct). The list of offices for which I have seen 'ruler' used as a synonym on English Wikipedia still keeps growing. If anyone writes that Bar was a ruler of Foo, I still have no idea what Bar's position in Fooian society was. Fortunately, we have already cleared up most ambiguities to something more
WP:DEFINING.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:4th-century rulers in Europe
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Category:Norwegian manuscripts
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Rename per category description, and a less ambiguous category name.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:American football teams in El Paso, Texas
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Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:58, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cemeteries in Odesa
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Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. (Open to broader discussion about the parent categories.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:La Ferme Célébrités participants
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Sports in the United States by city
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Oppose per
WP:COMMONNAME. Almost nobody calls a city or town a "populated place" in general conversation; it's "city" or "town". If you must rename it, have it be "By Municipality"-it's certainly more commonly used than "populated place."
Tom Danson (
talk) 21:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Tom, "Municipality" has a different definition in every state. "Populated place" is defined by USGS and is used in WP to define all cities, towns, villages, etc. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support all Given the precedent, these can probably be speedily renamed.--
User:Namiba 13:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support all there are numerous types of populated places in the USA and this name covers that better without naming which type, the definition if which is not important for the category.
Djflem (
talk)
Comment I thought the splitter was meant to be at the end, which most of these adhere to?
Crowsus (
talk) 09:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Doping cases in Australian soccer
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S.A. Julio (
talk) 09:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now with no objections to recreation if we ever get to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:01, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Kapiti Coast District
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The result of the discussion was:rename, but this seems to have been done out of process. (
non-admin closure) –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 10:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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