The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: manually merge and re-parent targets, as duplicates, since Yugoslavia was wholly in the 20th century. The merge should be done manually because quite some content is already deeper in the tree of every target. But, the 20th-century parent categories should be added to the targets, so that the Yugoslav categories still remain part of the tree of the 20th century. This is the same as for Czechoslovakia in
this earlier discussion.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
04:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Can we just accept that the main article is called
Serbia and Montenegro, let go of the name "Yugoslavia" after 1992, delete the "21st century in Yugoslavia" category and just rename all 1992 to 2006 categories to "Years in Serbia and Montenegro", leaving it entirely century-less? A short-lived turn-of-century state with 2 different names really does not benefit from century-based categories navigation. At most we could use "2000s in Serbia and Montenegro" (rename from
Category:2000s in Yugoslavia). I wouldn't go for creating/renaming "1990s in Serbia and Montenegro", that's too much of a fuss for too little gain.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
21:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Vipz @
Marcocapelle Is this something you can agree with? I think this is what we are looking for; a pragmatic solution to a complicated problem that can't really be solved if we are trying to be precise, exact, strict, and by the book. This allows everyone to find what they're looking for, and that is our goal in the end.
Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
11:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)reply
PS: One more pragmatic reason to call the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia "Serbia and Montenegro" in practice from 2000 onwards, is the fact that
Slobodan Milošević, whose tenure as president of Seria and then the FR of Yugoslavia virtually coincides with the 1990s in Yugoslavia, and with which that decade is strongly associated, was forced to resign on 7 October 2000 after losing the elections and a popular uprising against him. Afterwards, his successor
Vojislav Koštunica initiated the constitutional reforms which would eventually lead to the country being renamed "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. The post-Milošević era was de facto the post-Yugoslavia era.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
12:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Canadian trade unionists of Italian descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:WP:ARBITRARYCATWP:REDUNDANTFORK. What "Thessaly" or "Medieval Thessaly" means here is unclear and ambiguous, ranging from "Epirus" to "Thessaly" to
Empire of Thessalonica. What is meant by "ruler" here is also unclear. Many people are already in
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, so perhaps a lot of this is just a
WP:REDUNDANTFORK. It also contains two Ottoman governors, a self-proclaimed Serbo-Greek emperor, a "ruler" who became a monk, and a Serbian "magnate"/"general". It's a lot of people vaguely "Thessalian", "medieval" and "ruler" lumped together. Upmerging seems best for now.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
That would still duplicate
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, wouldn't it? Oh, I also see we've already got
Category:Sebastokrators. The title sebastokrator does not necessarily signify a sovereign position, nor is it necessarily connected to a territory. The fact that "Epirus", "Thessaly" and "Empire of Thessalonica" (
Thessaloniki lying in
Central Macedonia, not
Thessaly, despite similarities in names; the city was named after the region but is not located in it) are lumped together proves this; the connection between them is not that all these rulers were sebastokrators, but that most were members of the same
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, save for the exceptions mentioned. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
17:01, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
If we accept the genealogies as valid: probably yes. Although the first 4 weren't yet "grand", after
Oleg the Wise (whose relationship with "Rurik" and Igor is unclear), all successors of
Igor of Kiev who were princes of Kiev until 1240 were allegedly descended from Igor.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:3rd-millennium executions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT. 1 C, 0 P. I think it goes without saying that there won't be "potential for growth" for another 77 years. That executions will take place in the 22nd century is entirely plausible (though hopefully won't be necessary), but assuming such in advance is still
WP:CRYSTAL. Most of us probably won't be around anymore if it happens; until that time, this is a redundant layer.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Most topics do not warrant categorization by millennium, and cannot possibly contain future events. But in this case, we have five millennium categories for executions, from the
2nd millennium BC to present, and all except the 2nd millennium BC are further subdivided by century. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
01:05, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
It is a case where you may question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole. Millennia are primarily relevant in prehistory. By century may well suffice here.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole in this case, and potentially other cases. Both of you agree already to Delete
Category:4th-millennium BC deaths; I think the two cases are very similar. The latter will probably never be useful, while "3rd-millennium executions" won't be useful until we reach the year 2100 and we've got at least 3/5/10/whatever minimal number of items Wikipedia (if it still exists then, which I strongly hope) will require then to create a new category. Creating this category now is just very premature, and will not ease navigation for another 77 years.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
16:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Eastern Orthodoxy in Thessaloniki
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Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A merge is not necessary, the subcat is adequately parented.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
17:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lombardic queens consort
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Comment I've removed this and other categories as children of
Category:Italian queens consort, which has been incorrectly used as a "nationality" tree, because its scope had (for good reason) been limited to the 1861-1946
Kingdom of Italy. I'm currently splitting off
Category:Queens consort of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) as well for that reason. The only connection between them, really, seems to be the title "of Italy" and the use of the
Iron Crown as a symbol of their husband's power, but otherwise these are separate groups which require their own categories. Perhaps even the Napoleonic ones as well.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
07:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:The House of the Dead character redirects to lists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Mixup between two trees:
Category:People by occupation and country (people by the country where they work, regardless of their nationality) and
Category:People by occupation and nationality (people by their nationality, regardless of the country where they work). Neither of these is currently a parent of this category, but the 5 children show the two trees mixing up:
@
Marcocapelle Okay, I could agree to that. Should we then Purge the judges?
I myself strongly prefer Renaming/Rescoping the royalty to Royalty of Foo per your (and my) Monarchs of Foo principle ("Suggestion B"). Just like we agreed on Monarchs of Cyprus rather than Cypriot monarchs, and Regents of the Netherlands rather than Dutch regents, I would much prefer Royalty of the Netherlands instead of Dutch royalty. Their "office" is connected to a specific country; their nationality isn't really that important. E.g. Máxima being Argentinian is of secondary importance to her being the queen (consort) of the Netherlands, and we probably should not be categorising Willem-Alexander as "German royalty" just because he also has German nationality. Makes sense?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
21:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This category purports to contain "staff, members of its Editorial Advisory Board, Trustees or frequent contributors". None of these, however, are defining characteristics. Editorial board members, for example, are only listed in an article on a journal in the extremely rare cases that there are reliable sources independent of the subject discussing their importance for that journal. Similarly, authors (no matter how notable they may be) are only included in a journal article in the even rarer case that there are independent sources attesting to the importance of an author for a journal. Conversely, I cannot even remember a single case where publishing in a certain journal was mentioned other than in passing in articles on academics. The only exception that I see are persons that have been editor-in-chief of a journal (which makes those individuals meet
WP:ACADEMIC). In short, it is difficult to see how this category is defining for any of the academics currently included. Hence: delete.
Randykitty (
talk)
10:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Surely purge members of the editorial advisory board and members of the Antiquity Trust (which merely supports the publication of the journal), per
WP:NONDEF. Delete if too few articles are left in the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:28, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: manually merge and re-parent targets, as duplicates, since Yugoslavia was wholly in the 20th century. The merge should be done manually because quite some content is already deeper in the tree of every target. But, the 20th-century parent categories should be added to the targets, so that the Yugoslav categories still remain part of the tree of the 20th century. This is the same as for Czechoslovakia in
this earlier discussion.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
04:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Can we just accept that the main article is called
Serbia and Montenegro, let go of the name "Yugoslavia" after 1992, delete the "21st century in Yugoslavia" category and just rename all 1992 to 2006 categories to "Years in Serbia and Montenegro", leaving it entirely century-less? A short-lived turn-of-century state with 2 different names really does not benefit from century-based categories navigation. At most we could use "2000s in Serbia and Montenegro" (rename from
Category:2000s in Yugoslavia). I wouldn't go for creating/renaming "1990s in Serbia and Montenegro", that's too much of a fuss for too little gain.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
21:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Vipz @
Marcocapelle Is this something you can agree with? I think this is what we are looking for; a pragmatic solution to a complicated problem that can't really be solved if we are trying to be precise, exact, strict, and by the book. This allows everyone to find what they're looking for, and that is our goal in the end.
Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
11:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)reply
PS: One more pragmatic reason to call the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia "Serbia and Montenegro" in practice from 2000 onwards, is the fact that
Slobodan Milošević, whose tenure as president of Seria and then the FR of Yugoslavia virtually coincides with the 1990s in Yugoslavia, and with which that decade is strongly associated, was forced to resign on 7 October 2000 after losing the elections and a popular uprising against him. Afterwards, his successor
Vojislav Koštunica initiated the constitutional reforms which would eventually lead to the country being renamed "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. The post-Milošević era was de facto the post-Yugoslavia era.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
12:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Canadian trade unionists of Italian descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale:WP:ARBITRARYCATWP:REDUNDANTFORK. What "Thessaly" or "Medieval Thessaly" means here is unclear and ambiguous, ranging from "Epirus" to "Thessaly" to
Empire of Thessalonica. What is meant by "ruler" here is also unclear. Many people are already in
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, so perhaps a lot of this is just a
WP:REDUNDANTFORK. It also contains two Ottoman governors, a self-proclaimed Serbo-Greek emperor, a "ruler" who became a monk, and a Serbian "magnate"/"general". It's a lot of people vaguely "Thessalian", "medieval" and "ruler" lumped together. Upmerging seems best for now.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
That would still duplicate
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, wouldn't it? Oh, I also see we've already got
Category:Sebastokrators. The title sebastokrator does not necessarily signify a sovereign position, nor is it necessarily connected to a territory. The fact that "Epirus", "Thessaly" and "Empire of Thessalonica" (
Thessaloniki lying in
Central Macedonia, not
Thessaly, despite similarities in names; the city was named after the region but is not located in it) are lumped together proves this; the connection between them is not that all these rulers were sebastokrators, but that most were members of the same
Category:Komnenodoukas dynasty, save for the exceptions mentioned. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
17:01, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
If we accept the genealogies as valid: probably yes. Although the first 4 weren't yet "grand", after
Oleg the Wise (whose relationship with "Rurik" and Igor is unclear), all successors of
Igor of Kiev who were princes of Kiev until 1240 were allegedly descended from Igor.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
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Category:3rd-millennium executions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT. 1 C, 0 P. I think it goes without saying that there won't be "potential for growth" for another 77 years. That executions will take place in the 22nd century is entirely plausible (though hopefully won't be necessary), but assuming such in advance is still
WP:CRYSTAL. Most of us probably won't be around anymore if it happens; until that time, this is a redundant layer.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
22:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Most topics do not warrant categorization by millennium, and cannot possibly contain future events. But in this case, we have five millennium categories for executions, from the
2nd millennium BC to present, and all except the 2nd millennium BC are further subdivided by century. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
01:05, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
It is a case where you may question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole. Millennia are primarily relevant in prehistory. By century may well suffice here.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I question the usefulness of millennia categories as a whole in this case, and potentially other cases. Both of you agree already to Delete
Category:4th-millennium BC deaths; I think the two cases are very similar. The latter will probably never be useful, while "3rd-millennium executions" won't be useful until we reach the year 2100 and we've got at least 3/5/10/whatever minimal number of items Wikipedia (if it still exists then, which I strongly hope) will require then to create a new category. Creating this category now is just very premature, and will not ease navigation for another 77 years.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
16:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Eastern Orthodoxy in Thessaloniki
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Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A merge is not necessary, the subcat is adequately parented.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
17:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lombardic queens consort
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Comment I've removed this and other categories as children of
Category:Italian queens consort, which has been incorrectly used as a "nationality" tree, because its scope had (for good reason) been limited to the 1861-1946
Kingdom of Italy. I'm currently splitting off
Category:Queens consort of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) as well for that reason. The only connection between them, really, seems to be the title "of Italy" and the use of the
Iron Crown as a symbol of their husband's power, but otherwise these are separate groups which require their own categories. Perhaps even the Napoleonic ones as well.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
07:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:The House of the Dead character redirects to lists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Mixup between two trees:
Category:People by occupation and country (people by the country where they work, regardless of their nationality) and
Category:People by occupation and nationality (people by their nationality, regardless of the country where they work). Neither of these is currently a parent of this category, but the 5 children show the two trees mixing up:
@
Marcocapelle Okay, I could agree to that. Should we then Purge the judges?
I myself strongly prefer Renaming/Rescoping the royalty to Royalty of Foo per your (and my) Monarchs of Foo principle ("Suggestion B"). Just like we agreed on Monarchs of Cyprus rather than Cypriot monarchs, and Regents of the Netherlands rather than Dutch regents, I would much prefer Royalty of the Netherlands instead of Dutch royalty. Their "office" is connected to a specific country; their nationality isn't really that important. E.g. Máxima being Argentinian is of secondary importance to her being the queen (consort) of the Netherlands, and we probably should not be categorising Willem-Alexander as "German royalty" just because he also has German nationality. Makes sense?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
21:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: This category purports to contain "staff, members of its Editorial Advisory Board, Trustees or frequent contributors". None of these, however, are defining characteristics. Editorial board members, for example, are only listed in an article on a journal in the extremely rare cases that there are reliable sources independent of the subject discussing their importance for that journal. Similarly, authors (no matter how notable they may be) are only included in a journal article in the even rarer case that there are independent sources attesting to the importance of an author for a journal. Conversely, I cannot even remember a single case where publishing in a certain journal was mentioned other than in passing in articles on academics. The only exception that I see are persons that have been editor-in-chief of a journal (which makes those individuals meet
WP:ACADEMIC). In short, it is difficult to see how this category is defining for any of the academics currently included. Hence: delete.
Randykitty (
talk)
10:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Surely purge members of the editorial advisory board and members of the Antiquity Trust (which merely supports the publication of the journal), per
WP:NONDEF. Delete if too few articles are left in the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:28, 14 August 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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