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Category:People from Kurgan Oblast
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Based on the population of the Russian categories: Oppose for all: Category:People from Zverinogolovsky District (29), Category:People from Shadrinsky District (39), Category:People from Yurgamyshsky District (30), Category:People from Petukhovo (18), Category:People from Mokrousovsky District (23), Category:People from Mishkinsky District, Kurgan Oblast (20), Category:People from Kataysky District (31), Category:People from Kargapolsky District (42), Category:People from Dalmatovsky District (25, excluding people from Dalmatovo), Category:People from Dalmatovo (8).
Furius (
talk)
21:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - the number of articles in the Russian wiki is irrelevant assuming such people do not as yet have en wiki articles (and in any case the numbers cited appear to include people who were born in or died in the respective areas, not generally included in en wiki categories).
Oculi (
talk)
22:41, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
To be clear, I have excluded "People who died in" and "people buried in" from these figures. I'm baffled by the claim that en.wiki doesn't include people who were born in a given area, since
Category:People by county in the United States is full of such people. As stated below, the numbers on ru.wiki are relevant, because they indicate potential for growth. Having the equivalent category tree there is also useful for interwiki translation work.
Furius (
talk)
22:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support all. Categories are useful as a navigation tool between articles about the same topic. When lots of categories only have 1 or a few articles the whole purpose of categories goes astray. The fact that there is useful translation work to be done can also be derived from the limited number of articles at a higher level, that is certainly not a reason to keep all these smallcats.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
02:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)reply
That's not what
WP:SMALLCAT says. You're one of the most regular contributors here, so what you and Oculi saying clearly is what practice actually is, but perhaps you could update the guidelines to reflect that practice? (e.g. "Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members..." --> "Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members or that currently have very few members..." or whatever the rule is).
Furius (
talk)
14:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I think we have to look at the number of articles actually in English Wikipedia unless there is some reason to expect more in the near future. Categories are supposed to be defining, and place of birth is not necessarily so.
Rathfelder (
talk)
15:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Samara Oblast
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Based on population of the ru.wiki categories, Support for: Category:People from Shigonsky District (4), Category:People from Kinel (5), Category:People from Borsky District, Samara Oblast (14). Oppose for: Category:People from Zhigulyovsk (16), Category:People from Volzhsky District, Samara Oblast (12), Category:People from Krasnoarmeysky District, Samara Oblast (19), Category:People from Koshkinsky District (11), Category:People from Kinel-Cherkassky District (21), Category:People from Khvorostyansky District (7), Category:People from Chapayevsk (24). On the fence about: Category:People from Bezenchuksky District (6).
Furius (
talk)
21:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Tula Oblast
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Yes, I think these do. When I'm doing translation work, I often use categories like this to identify targets for translation to en.wiki (though Russian isn't one of my languages, yet).
Furius (
talk)
21:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Test pilots
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Clarityfiend.seems to be suggesting containerisation Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk14:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Further Comment -- The nom has no doubt done good work in tidying up the category, but the name is already the appropriate one, even if the main article is in the singular. I do not think further containerisation is needed. We have a few general articles related to the subject apart from the main article, but that is OK and should not prevent a container tag being applied.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: For good housekeeping following previous discussions which resulted in moving members manually and deleting the parent cat
Songs in memory of deceased persons and where both categories existed,
Songs in Memory of XXX were merged with the Category, Songs about XXX. As stated in previous nomination mentioned above, whether a song was written before or after the death of the subject seems such an artificial distinction.
Richhoncho (
talk)
10:51, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Tatarstan
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Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Krasnoyarsk Krai
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Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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People by occupation and city
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Nominator's rationale: These three are consistent with many siblings, but were opposed as
Speedy nominations on the ground that they are by location not nationality. However,
WP:SUBCAT allows for sub-catting where the majority of the contents fit into the parent. –
FayenaticLondon08:00, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Reply Colleges in Oxford attract quite a lot of international students. So an Indian national might be in a college in Oxford; that does not make him a British scientist.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:38, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not all scientists working in Foo country are Fooian nationals. This is a "by country" category, not a "by nationality" category. The scope of the category is "cities in a state"; an atlas will verify the state if necessary. The proposal would change the scope to "nationals who happen to live in a city"; to verify this claim, you would need to see their passport. The category is not broken so don't fix it.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
The distinction between "by country" categories and "by nationality" categories clearly escapes many editors. Categories are supposed to be defining, and these relate to the location of what made the person notable, not their nationality. That is why academics of universities are included in People from Foo categories but students arent.
Rathfelder (
talk)
22:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Medieval Arab people by occupation
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Nominator's rationale: delete (after manual merge) or rename, trivial intersection between ethnicity and occupation (
WP:OCEGRS). Articles may be moved to an occupation in the medieval Islamic world category or a more specific category in that tree (e.g. Al-Andalus or Abbasid Caliphate) if they aren't already there. And the latter is quite likely.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support generally - I checked Astronomers, which covered everywhere from Iraq to Morocco, with a few people not identified by nationality. "Select merge" must be difficult for the closing admin. Please add target categories to articles so that the closing admin can just delete redundant categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes there is still a lot of clean-up to be done. But that shouldn't be a reason not to clean this up. For being an astronomer it is entirely irrelevant where their ancestors came from.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:People from Kurgan Oblast
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Based on the population of the Russian categories: Oppose for all: Category:People from Zverinogolovsky District (29), Category:People from Shadrinsky District (39), Category:People from Yurgamyshsky District (30), Category:People from Petukhovo (18), Category:People from Mokrousovsky District (23), Category:People from Mishkinsky District, Kurgan Oblast (20), Category:People from Kataysky District (31), Category:People from Kargapolsky District (42), Category:People from Dalmatovsky District (25, excluding people from Dalmatovo), Category:People from Dalmatovo (8).
Furius (
talk)
21:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - the number of articles in the Russian wiki is irrelevant assuming such people do not as yet have en wiki articles (and in any case the numbers cited appear to include people who were born in or died in the respective areas, not generally included in en wiki categories).
Oculi (
talk)
22:41, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
To be clear, I have excluded "People who died in" and "people buried in" from these figures. I'm baffled by the claim that en.wiki doesn't include people who were born in a given area, since
Category:People by county in the United States is full of such people. As stated below, the numbers on ru.wiki are relevant, because they indicate potential for growth. Having the equivalent category tree there is also useful for interwiki translation work.
Furius (
talk)
22:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support all. Categories are useful as a navigation tool between articles about the same topic. When lots of categories only have 1 or a few articles the whole purpose of categories goes astray. The fact that there is useful translation work to be done can also be derived from the limited number of articles at a higher level, that is certainly not a reason to keep all these smallcats.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
02:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)reply
That's not what
WP:SMALLCAT says. You're one of the most regular contributors here, so what you and Oculi saying clearly is what practice actually is, but perhaps you could update the guidelines to reflect that practice? (e.g. "Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members..." --> "Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members or that currently have very few members..." or whatever the rule is).
Furius (
talk)
14:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I think we have to look at the number of articles actually in English Wikipedia unless there is some reason to expect more in the near future. Categories are supposed to be defining, and place of birth is not necessarily so.
Rathfelder (
talk)
15:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Samara Oblast
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Based on population of the ru.wiki categories, Support for: Category:People from Shigonsky District (4), Category:People from Kinel (5), Category:People from Borsky District, Samara Oblast (14). Oppose for: Category:People from Zhigulyovsk (16), Category:People from Volzhsky District, Samara Oblast (12), Category:People from Krasnoarmeysky District, Samara Oblast (19), Category:People from Koshkinsky District (11), Category:People from Kinel-Cherkassky District (21), Category:People from Khvorostyansky District (7), Category:People from Chapayevsk (24). On the fence about: Category:People from Bezenchuksky District (6).
Furius (
talk)
21:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Tula Oblast
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Yes, I think these do. When I'm doing translation work, I often use categories like this to identify targets for translation to en.wiki (though Russian isn't one of my languages, yet).
Furius (
talk)
21:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Test pilots
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Clarityfiend.seems to be suggesting containerisation Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk14:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Further Comment -- The nom has no doubt done good work in tidying up the category, but the name is already the appropriate one, even if the main article is in the singular. I do not think further containerisation is needed. We have a few general articles related to the subject apart from the main article, but that is OK and should not prevent a container tag being applied.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: For good housekeeping following previous discussions which resulted in moving members manually and deleting the parent cat
Songs in memory of deceased persons and where both categories existed,
Songs in Memory of XXX were merged with the Category, Songs about XXX. As stated in previous nomination mentioned above, whether a song was written before or after the death of the subject seems such an artificial distinction.
Richhoncho (
talk)
10:51, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Tatarstan
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Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Krasnoyarsk Krai
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Support - this is the wrong way round - create the articles first, then create the categories when there are enough articles (5 or 6).
Oculi (
talk)
22:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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People by occupation and city
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: These three are consistent with many siblings, but were opposed as
Speedy nominations on the ground that they are by location not nationality. However,
WP:SUBCAT allows for sub-catting where the majority of the contents fit into the parent. –
FayenaticLondon08:00, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Reply Colleges in Oxford attract quite a lot of international students. So an Indian national might be in a college in Oxford; that does not make him a British scientist.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:38, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not all scientists working in Foo country are Fooian nationals. This is a "by country" category, not a "by nationality" category. The scope of the category is "cities in a state"; an atlas will verify the state if necessary. The proposal would change the scope to "nationals who happen to live in a city"; to verify this claim, you would need to see their passport. The category is not broken so don't fix it.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
The distinction between "by country" categories and "by nationality" categories clearly escapes many editors. Categories are supposed to be defining, and these relate to the location of what made the person notable, not their nationality. That is why academics of universities are included in People from Foo categories but students arent.
Rathfelder (
talk)
22:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
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Medieval Arab people by occupation
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: delete (after manual merge) or rename, trivial intersection between ethnicity and occupation (
WP:OCEGRS). Articles may be moved to an occupation in the medieval Islamic world category or a more specific category in that tree (e.g. Al-Andalus or Abbasid Caliphate) if they aren't already there. And the latter is quite likely.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Support generally - I checked Astronomers, which covered everywhere from Iraq to Morocco, with a few people not identified by nationality. "Select merge" must be difficult for the closing admin. Please add target categories to articles so that the closing admin can just delete redundant categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes there is still a lot of clean-up to be done. But that shouldn't be a reason not to clean this up. For being an astronomer it is entirely irrelevant where their ancestors came from.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
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