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Nominator's rationale: I sympathise with the desire of only having alphabetically ordered lists. Categorizing each list and each article that includes a list by that would create an unnecessary and extreme workload though. Especially that after each and every edit to a page, that page would need to be checked if its lists are still ordered alphabetically. –
NJD-DE (
talk)
23:02, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete. Many lists aren't and shouldn't be alphabetical, but e.g. chronological. If kept anyway, it should only be added to actual lists which have consensus that they should be alphabetical, not to pages which contain one or more lists somewhere (e.g. a list of notable people in a city article) where it is added now, e.g.
Keiser, Arkansas.
Fram (
talk)
10:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete Articles which contain a list isn't a defining characteristic. I could understand it more if it contained actual List-class articles. -
Kj cheetham (
talk)
18:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete - there will also be sortable lists. This particular category appears to be 'articles about places in Arkansas containing an alphabetical list'.
Oculi (
talk)
18:06, 8 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete. "Lists" categories are for pages which are lists, not pages which are articles about topics that merely happen to embed a list — for example, if a list of notable people from a city is standing alone as its own separate article at the title
List of people from City, then that would be categorized as a list, but a list of notable people that's simply contained as a subsection inside an overview article about the city does not get the city's article categorized as a "list". And even if the contents here were actually lists, which they aren't, it would serve no navigational or maintenance purpose to categorize lists for the matter of whether they were organized alphabetically or non-alphabetically anyway, so there's no pressing need to repurpose this elsewhere.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Police departments of On Patrol: Live
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Nominator's rationale: Delete, I can't tell why we need a category for everything related to
On Patrol: Live. Everything added into this category so far is not a police department (though I've removed most of what has been added as not being a police department, it generally consists of random cities, not their actual police departments).
Among Us for POTUS (
talk)
22:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete: I think if we actually had articles on most of the police departments featured on the show this would be a more-than-reasonable category, but it doesn't seem like we do and I don't see a need to add this to city/county pages - If the departments aren't notable they shouldn't be categorized. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me!18:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete A department's appearance on a television show is not a defining characteristic that needs categorization; if it were, the articles for New York and Los Angeles would be overloaded with thousands of fictional and non-fictional TV/film appearances categories. Nate•(
chatter)23:18, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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@
Marcocapelle: Im afraid I don't understand. If this is a WP:ENGVAR thing, then it suggests oppose the deletion of the transport cat and instead delete the transportation cat. Either that, or several other North America transport categories should then be renamed. Are you saying US and Mexico usage trumps the rest of the North American countries? --
DB1729talk19:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That is a fair question. The situation here is quite unusual. Normally the other North American countries use the same wording as the United States. I had not noticed before that this is not the case here. Then it may well become reverse merge instead.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the link. I'm still neutral/unclear about this myself. If transport vs transportation is based on national varieties of English, then is it acceptable to use either term for non-English speaking countries, and for continents that use multiple varieties of English? If so, should we retain the transportation category because it was created first? Or is that exceeding the reach of
MOS:RETAIN?
DB1729talk14:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Transport or transportation? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk17:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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CfD section High commissioners for Commonwealth countries
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Comment - each of these 3 contains only the same person. Unless Malawi has an Australian High Commission, there will not be a High Commissioner (or an Ambassador). So I expect these should be deleted.
Oculi (
talk)
14:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: I am currently in the process of updating the relevant pages, for which these non-resident offices were held, so additional pages will be added to these categories, once they are renamed.
Siegfried Nugent (
talk)
00:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Support nom. The Nigeria High Commissioner will be Ambassador to Benin and Niger, since they are not in the Commonwealth. We should keep these for the moment and see how they develop, reconsidering them in (say) six months.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
20:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Acorn Archimedes games
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Category:Head Masters of Eton College educated at Eton
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Nominator's rationale: Surely I am not alone in thinking this is several intersections too far. (Created by Rathfelder.)
Oculi (
talk)
21:38, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Categories are not intended to make political points. Are you going to create 'Prime ministers educated at Roundhay School'?
Oculi (
talk)
21:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
De-diffuse or Delete I don't object very strongly to the category as such, but I really object to it being a diffusing one, with members being removed from the main
Category:People educated at Eton College. Rathfelder, in his usual fashion, has been setting up large numbers of these, all diffusing. There are currently 16 of these. Many of these will not be at all defining ways of categorizing the individuals.
Johnbod (
talk)
21:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm afraid I missed that - but it did end as no consensus. Again, my objection to it being a diffusing category is far stronger than my objection to it existing - unfortunately no one raised that issue I think. But if I had to choose between these not existing at all and them being diffusing, I'd go for the former. Huge categories aren't much of a problem, imo, & the obvious way to break the Etonians up is by century.
Johnbod (
talk)
00:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge back, I can see that the parent category is too large, but a by-century split would be far more natural than a split by a later occupation that people did not have yet when they were studying at this school.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
When did I encourage anyone to create these evil categories? And why is it a problem if the subcategories, like most, are diffusing? NB nobody is notable just because they went to Eton, or any other school. Its what they did afterwards that makes them notable. They are sent there precisely because it gets them into prestigious posts. Categories are supposed to be defining.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep The Eton alumni category is so enormous that it needs splitting. We have recently had created "government ministers" educated at and several more. My view is that if a category can be populated as well as this one is we should have it. This is an unusual case, which should be limited to it, with Harrow, Westminster, Winchester and not much more. I suspect that
Category:Writers educated at Eton College might well be found capable of being well populated. Let us await the split being completed before we think about merging back. Furthermore a by century split will not work well: it would need to be done by the decade when they left the school; otherwise we will have more overpopulated categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
20:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
??Eh?? The short time they spend at school is precisely why it would work well. Far less overlap & so double-catting needed than for career cats. There's absolutely no need for splitting by decade - why do that? But the main problem is that when these are made diffusing cats, as Rathfelder is doing, people are hidden away in cats that they are not actually known for, as with
Category:Lord Lieutenants educated at Eton College.
Johnbod (
talk)
16:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The fact that other categories dont exist is not a very good argument for deleting this one. I've started with categories I know something about.
Category:Cricketers educated at Eton College would be enormous and there is no reason why it cant be created. Nobody is notable just because they went to Eton or any other school. Its what they do subsequently which makes them notable. With most schools we cant break people down by occupation because there arent anough of them, but there are more than 5000 articles about Eton. The occupational categories are big enough to break down by century.
Rathfelder (
talk)
20:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Breaking down the occupational categories by century would be ridiculous.There is no consensus to create occupational categories in the first place. (Or, so far, consensus to delete them, surprisingly.)
Oculi (
talk)
15:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Most of the people you list are not categorised as criminals. But the point I am making is that these people were in two categories that relate to the same institution. The categories relate to each other.
Rathfelder (
talk)
18:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Freddie Ayer was not a criminal, but even if he was, what relevance has it to this discussion? The point is that there is clearly a relationship between being educated at Eton and working there.
Bigwig7 (
talk)
16:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)reply
CU note to closer I'm not going to go through striking lots of comments that have been replied to, but please note that I have blocked Rathfelder for socking through the account Bigwig7 (CU-confirmed). I have struck through Bigwig7's !vote; please treat their arguments as having come from one person.
GirthSummit (blether)10:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Aircraft manufacturers of Yugoslavia and Serbia
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Nominator's rationale: Category name is dubious, referring to two countries. Besides, it should be "manufacturers of Yugoslavia", as simply contains manufacturers from almost every former republic.
౪ Santa ౪99°12:31, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, although don't remove manufacturers that still exist in successor republics but were founded in Yugoslavia. -
Vipz (
talk)
03:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Support -- When Yugoslavia existed Serbia was part of it. New it has been dissolved Serbia is a separate country. We need a category for each and any manufacturers of the Yugo-era still operating in Serbia should be in both.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:56, 12 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:6th-century Arabic writers
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Category:Wikipedians who like Half-Life
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Nominator's rationale: I sympathise with the desire of only having alphabetically ordered lists. Categorizing each list and each article that includes a list by that would create an unnecessary and extreme workload though. Especially that after each and every edit to a page, that page would need to be checked if its lists are still ordered alphabetically. –
NJD-DE (
talk)
23:02, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete. Many lists aren't and shouldn't be alphabetical, but e.g. chronological. If kept anyway, it should only be added to actual lists which have consensus that they should be alphabetical, not to pages which contain one or more lists somewhere (e.g. a list of notable people in a city article) where it is added now, e.g.
Keiser, Arkansas.
Fram (
talk)
10:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete Articles which contain a list isn't a defining characteristic. I could understand it more if it contained actual List-class articles. -
Kj cheetham (
talk)
18:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete - there will also be sortable lists. This particular category appears to be 'articles about places in Arkansas containing an alphabetical list'.
Oculi (
talk)
18:06, 8 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete. "Lists" categories are for pages which are lists, not pages which are articles about topics that merely happen to embed a list — for example, if a list of notable people from a city is standing alone as its own separate article at the title
List of people from City, then that would be categorized as a list, but a list of notable people that's simply contained as a subsection inside an overview article about the city does not get the city's article categorized as a "list". And even if the contents here were actually lists, which they aren't, it would serve no navigational or maintenance purpose to categorize lists for the matter of whether they were organized alphabetically or non-alphabetically anyway, so there's no pressing need to repurpose this elsewhere.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Police departments of On Patrol: Live
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Nominator's rationale: Delete, I can't tell why we need a category for everything related to
On Patrol: Live. Everything added into this category so far is not a police department (though I've removed most of what has been added as not being a police department, it generally consists of random cities, not their actual police departments).
Among Us for POTUS (
talk)
22:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete: I think if we actually had articles on most of the police departments featured on the show this would be a more-than-reasonable category, but it doesn't seem like we do and I don't see a need to add this to city/county pages - If the departments aren't notable they shouldn't be categorized. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me!18:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete A department's appearance on a television show is not a defining characteristic that needs categorization; if it were, the articles for New York and Los Angeles would be overloaded with thousands of fictional and non-fictional TV/film appearances categories. Nate•(
chatter)23:18, 7 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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@
Marcocapelle: Im afraid I don't understand. If this is a WP:ENGVAR thing, then it suggests oppose the deletion of the transport cat and instead delete the transportation cat. Either that, or several other North America transport categories should then be renamed. Are you saying US and Mexico usage trumps the rest of the North American countries? --
DB1729talk19:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That is a fair question. The situation here is quite unusual. Normally the other North American countries use the same wording as the United States. I had not noticed before that this is not the case here. Then it may well become reverse merge instead.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the link. I'm still neutral/unclear about this myself. If transport vs transportation is based on national varieties of English, then is it acceptable to use either term for non-English speaking countries, and for continents that use multiple varieties of English? If so, should we retain the transportation category because it was created first? Or is that exceeding the reach of
MOS:RETAIN?
DB1729talk14:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Transport or transportation? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk17:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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CfD section High commissioners for Commonwealth countries
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Comment - each of these 3 contains only the same person. Unless Malawi has an Australian High Commission, there will not be a High Commissioner (or an Ambassador). So I expect these should be deleted.
Oculi (
talk)
14:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: I am currently in the process of updating the relevant pages, for which these non-resident offices were held, so additional pages will be added to these categories, once they are renamed.
Siegfried Nugent (
talk)
00:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Support nom. The Nigeria High Commissioner will be Ambassador to Benin and Niger, since they are not in the Commonwealth. We should keep these for the moment and see how they develop, reconsidering them in (say) six months.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
20:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Acorn Archimedes games
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Category:Head Masters of Eton College educated at Eton
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Nominator's rationale: Surely I am not alone in thinking this is several intersections too far. (Created by Rathfelder.)
Oculi (
talk)
21:38, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Categories are not intended to make political points. Are you going to create 'Prime ministers educated at Roundhay School'?
Oculi (
talk)
21:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
De-diffuse or Delete I don't object very strongly to the category as such, but I really object to it being a diffusing one, with members being removed from the main
Category:People educated at Eton College. Rathfelder, in his usual fashion, has been setting up large numbers of these, all diffusing. There are currently 16 of these. Many of these will not be at all defining ways of categorizing the individuals.
Johnbod (
talk)
21:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm afraid I missed that - but it did end as no consensus. Again, my objection to it being a diffusing category is far stronger than my objection to it existing - unfortunately no one raised that issue I think. But if I had to choose between these not existing at all and them being diffusing, I'd go for the former. Huge categories aren't much of a problem, imo, & the obvious way to break the Etonians up is by century.
Johnbod (
talk)
00:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Merge back, I can see that the parent category is too large, but a by-century split would be far more natural than a split by a later occupation that people did not have yet when they were studying at this school.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
When did I encourage anyone to create these evil categories? And why is it a problem if the subcategories, like most, are diffusing? NB nobody is notable just because they went to Eton, or any other school. Its what they did afterwards that makes them notable. They are sent there precisely because it gets them into prestigious posts. Categories are supposed to be defining.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep The Eton alumni category is so enormous that it needs splitting. We have recently had created "government ministers" educated at and several more. My view is that if a category can be populated as well as this one is we should have it. This is an unusual case, which should be limited to it, with Harrow, Westminster, Winchester and not much more. I suspect that
Category:Writers educated at Eton College might well be found capable of being well populated. Let us await the split being completed before we think about merging back. Furthermore a by century split will not work well: it would need to be done by the decade when they left the school; otherwise we will have more overpopulated categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
20:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
??Eh?? The short time they spend at school is precisely why it would work well. Far less overlap & so double-catting needed than for career cats. There's absolutely no need for splitting by decade - why do that? But the main problem is that when these are made diffusing cats, as Rathfelder is doing, people are hidden away in cats that they are not actually known for, as with
Category:Lord Lieutenants educated at Eton College.
Johnbod (
talk)
16:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The fact that other categories dont exist is not a very good argument for deleting this one. I've started with categories I know something about.
Category:Cricketers educated at Eton College would be enormous and there is no reason why it cant be created. Nobody is notable just because they went to Eton or any other school. Its what they do subsequently which makes them notable. With most schools we cant break people down by occupation because there arent anough of them, but there are more than 5000 articles about Eton. The occupational categories are big enough to break down by century.
Rathfelder (
talk)
20:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Breaking down the occupational categories by century would be ridiculous.There is no consensus to create occupational categories in the first place. (Or, so far, consensus to delete them, surprisingly.)
Oculi (
talk)
15:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Most of the people you list are not categorised as criminals. But the point I am making is that these people were in two categories that relate to the same institution. The categories relate to each other.
Rathfelder (
talk)
18:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Freddie Ayer was not a criminal, but even if he was, what relevance has it to this discussion? The point is that there is clearly a relationship between being educated at Eton and working there.
Bigwig7 (
talk)
16:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)reply
CU note to closer I'm not going to go through striking lots of comments that have been replied to, but please note that I have blocked Rathfelder for socking through the account Bigwig7 (CU-confirmed). I have struck through Bigwig7's !vote; please treat their arguments as having come from one person.
GirthSummit (blether)10:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Aircraft manufacturers of Yugoslavia and Serbia
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Nominator's rationale: Category name is dubious, referring to two countries. Besides, it should be "manufacturers of Yugoslavia", as simply contains manufacturers from almost every former republic.
౪ Santa ౪99°12:31, 6 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, although don't remove manufacturers that still exist in successor republics but were founded in Yugoslavia. -
Vipz (
talk)
03:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Support -- When Yugoslavia existed Serbia was part of it. New it has been dissolved Serbia is a separate country. We need a category for each and any manufacturers of the Yugo-era still operating in Serbia should be in both.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:56, 12 November 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:6th-century Arabic writers
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Category:Wikipedians who like Half-Life
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