The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:English-language writers from Canada
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete. bibliomaniac15 04:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Not defining. English is by far the most common language in Canada so a non-Francophone writer from there *not* writing in English would be exceptional. In this light,
Category:Canadian writers in French, which is a well-established part of the category tree, makes a lot more sense. Graham87 15:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support per nominator -
JarrahTree 15:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose – it is a necessary subcategory of English-language writers. By deleting this category and continuing to imply that Canadian writers are English-language writers by default, you end up having to choose between 1) making English-language Canadian writers inaccessible from the English-language writers category or 2) putting Canadian writers under English-language writers, which is incorrect, because doing so makes French-language Canadian writers a subset of English-language writers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Iketsi (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. While it's true that
Category:English-language writers would be unnavigably large if it was just indiscriminately added to every writer from every majority-English country, it's also true that it's just silly and pointless to maintain dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from countries where English-language writers are the clear majority of all writers. So the long-established consensus has been that instead of either having dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from Canada, Australia, the United States or the United Kingdom or directly adding all of them to the parent, instead the categories for Canadian, Australian, American and British writers are simply listed on the
Category:English-language writers page with a "Most but not necessarily all writers in the following countries also wrote in English" proviso, so that the category itself can be restricted for size management purposes to English-language writers from countries where English-language writing is the exception rather than the norm. I don't see a reason why that practice isn't working, or needs to be overturned in favour of something different.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose there are two official languages in Canada, one used by a very large minority. There are large numbers of French-language writers who are award winning, and translated into English. And there are growing numbers of writers of indigenous languages in Canada, due to the promotion of traditional languages. Per Iketsi, the default should not be English, as award-winnng writers of non-English languages exist in Canada, for not just French. --
64.229.90.53 (
talk) 16:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Please consider carefully the meanings of the phrases "unnavigably large" and "unmaintainable". It's never, ever helpful to maintain a category that would have to have considerably more than 10,000 entries in it.
Bearcat (
talk) 15:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete It is not just that the vast majority of writers in Canada write in English. The bigger problem is that our articles on Cnaadian writers do not mention in gneral that they wrote in English. So even though we know that this is the case, it is not going to be stated in the articles, and often will not be stated explicitly in the sources. So adding this category will end up involving a lot of original research. For notmuch gain, because it will be an 80% of more overlap with the Canadian writers category, which in turn is huge. It basically boils down to why we do not have a category like
Category:White American politicians. Like analogies there are limits to it, but it makes sense to use reason. It is also basically the same reason why we do not have
Cateogry:American English language writers, the US lack of an official language is another factor, and there may be a lower percentage of the Hispanic and Latino American writers that write not in English when compared to Frnech-Canadian writers, but the US also had a hugely flourishing German-language news media before World War I, and also had several other non-English news medias, and many other forms of non-English writing. No country are you going to find 100% overlap between writers and language, but we need to avoid creating categories that will substantially overlap with the main language and lead to category clutter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 17:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:English-language writers from Australia
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete. No merge is needed. –
FayenaticLondon 17:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Not defining. Per the
Australia article, English is the de-facto national language here, so an Australian writer *not* writing in English would be exceptional. Graham87 15:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - per nominator
JarrahTree 15:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose – it is a necessary subcategory of English-language writers. By deleting this category and continuing to imply that Canadian writers are English-language writers by default, you end up having to choose between 1) making English-language Canadian writers inaccessible from the English-language writers category or 2) putting Canadian writers under English-language writers, which is incorrect, because doing so makes French-language Canadian writers a subset of English-language writers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Iketsi (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
In Canada it may be a different situation with a substantial French-speaking minority, but Australia does not have that.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
This item is about
Australia and I fail to be convinced how the Canadian case has anything to do with Australia, as the response has been made word for word as if the two countries are the same.
JarrahTree 22:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. While it's true that
Category:English-language writers would be unnavigably large if it was just indiscriminately added to every writer from every majority-English country, it's also true that it's just silly and pointless to maintain dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from countries where English-language writers are the clear majority of all writers. So the long-established consensus has been that instead of either having dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from Canada, Australia, the United States or the United Kingdom or directly adding all of them to the parent, instead the categories for Canadian, Australian, American and British writers are simply listed on the
Category:English-language writers page with a "Most but not necessarily all writers in the following countries also wrote in English" proviso, so that the category itself can be restricted for size management purposes to English-language writers from countries where English-language writing is the exception rather than the norm. I don't see a reason why that practice isn't working, or needs to be overturned in favour of something different.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:8th-century BC kings of Rome
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge. –
FayenaticLondon 15:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: All fail
WP:SMALLCAT, there are 7 or 8 kings in total, no need to have 3 separate categories for this
Avilich (
talk) 23:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)reply
If you look for more than 2 seconds you'll see that they're still being categorized by century, just not through the same category
Avilich (
talk) 04:38, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Why does your response begin with a confrontational and sarcastic note like "look for more than two seconds"? You could just as easily have written something like: "They are still categorised by century, just not through the same category". Surely you can discuss a topic without being ill-mannered?
Anyway, having already considered this for a reasonable amount of time, I still oppose the nomination. I'll use
Category:6th-century BC kings of Rome for example as all three are the same in categoric terms. If you upmerge this to
Category:6th-century BC monarchs, you ignore the sub-category split by realm while just adding the Roman kings to the miscellaneous items in the category. That would be poor categorisation because we need to focus on the historical aspects of each realm and I would think
Dimadick had that in mind when he rightly split
Category:6th-century BC monarchs. That is where your idea fails the
Category:Rulers by century tree. As for upmerging to each of
Category:Kings of Rome and
Category:6th-century BC Romans, it makes complete sense to have the by century split in the former and to separate the kings from the rest in the latter due to their historical importance. Finally, in systematic terms, the split into kings by century across all these trees is the best navigational solution.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 05:08, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
"we need to focus on the historical aspects", "due to their historical importance", what does that even mean? They're still being categorized according to their historical importance, they're still classified as both "Kings of Rome" and "6th-century BC monarchs", and they're still descended from the category "Rulers by century", only difference is there's now one less category. Having lots of smll makes navigation harder, not easier.
Avilich (
talk) 14:43, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The comments mean what they say. I fail to see what could possibly be so difficult to understand. As I have tried to explain to you below, navigation is about helping the users to find what they are looking for. As Dimadick says, if all the 6th century Romans are in one category, how does the reader see which are the kings if he doesn't already know their names? The sub-category makes it easy for him by presenting the three of them at a glance. That is good and effective navigation.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 20:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose How would navigation be helped by having all Romans in the same category, regardless of their social rank?
Dimadick (
talk) 05:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Exactly. In a case like this, historical importance outweighs WP guidelines. In any event, SMALLCAT includes: "unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme". Which is just what we have here with these three historical category trees.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 05:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Because most Romans aren't categorized by social rank in this context, and having unnecessary subcategories within the already small Kings of Rome doesn't improve navigation, it worsens it.
Avilich (
talk) 14:24, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
What Dimadick is saying is that the purpose of navigation is to enable the user to find things easily. The kings are arguably the 8th to 6th century BC Roman subjects most people will want to read about so, to ease navigation, they have been set apart from the rest in an identifiable location.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: A considerable amount of these are political officeholders, for which a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" would be a better solution than a permanent smallcat like "6th-century kings". If you think the category 6th-century BC Romans is unwieldy (it's far from it), a 6th-century kings category with only 3 articles will hardly change anything. An officeholder category, which I can support, will surely be a better solution.
Avilich (
talk) 14:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
irrelevant trolling
Using a modern term like officeholder in the context of an ancient kingdom would be anomalous in the extreme. It is in any case historically and politically incorrect to categorise these kings, who were absolute monarchs, alongside the early consuls, senators and others. As for the category being permanently small, which is true, you need to bear in mind that
WP:SMALLCAT "does not preclude all small categories" and we may retain "categories (which) are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme". SMALLCAT is only a guideline – to be applied using
WP:COMMONSENSE – and it is outweighed here by the historical and navigational considerations.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
none of the people I referred to are officeholders in the kingdom
Avilich (
talk) 15:03, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
No, you are meaning for example the ones who became consul after Tarquin was expelled. True enough, but I was meaning it would be incorrect to term absolute monarchs as "officeholders" and the term is also anachronistic for such as an early Roman consul. We could perhaps consider breaking out the early consuls into a sister sub-category for the kings, but that's not relevant here.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 15:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
When did I say that monarchs should be classified as officeholders? I only suggested a way to trim the parent category in a better way than it's currently done, but that's another discussion. Do you even pause to think and deliberate before replying?
Avilich (
talk) 16:59, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Avilich, I suggest you drop this provocative act of yours. Stop being confrontational and trying to twist things. You were blocked only a few weeks ago and you have been warned more than once about uncivil posts. You said above that "a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" would be a better solution than a permanent smallcat like "6th-century kings". That obviously means you would include the three kings among the "officeholders". If you meant something else, then alter your post above to try and make yourself clear. Finally, don't let me see any more of your "clever remarks". End of conversation.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 20:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
You're purposely misrepresenting my statement: Marcocapelle's concern was that the 6th-century Romans category was already too unwieldy, and I simply pointed out that it's possible to create several other types of subcats (with 'officeholder' being just an example) to address that problem. At no point did I mention that the kings would be part of them.
Avilich (
talk) 20:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Upmerge as nom. This will not result in the loss of data and will eliminate some small categories, created due to an unnecessary split.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose While I also generally support such nominations, I think that Rome is a worthy exception.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 09:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged: please tell me how does 'worthiness' translate into not being able to conveniently see the whole of 8 articles in a single category, and instead having to navigate back and forth between 3 different subcategories to view this extremely limited pool of entries. I could argue that Rome being 'worthy' should imply the exact opposite (that superfluous subcats should not stand in the way of convenience), or I could cite an actual policy/guideline to back up such a subjective argument.
Avilich (
talk) 20:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Rome is special in many ways: culturally and historically in western civilisation; the depth of articles in each topic that few other monarchies can match.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 09:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged: I'll ask again, how does this translate into having unnecessary subcategories that will make navigation worse? Rome being 'special', if anything, only makes the existence of unnecessary smallcats that more egregious, and you yourself stated you generally support their elimination.
Avilich (
talk) 13:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
At the risk of repeating myself, I oppose the nom as an exception to my usual position on such noms due to the exceptional nature of Rome and the quantity of Roman articles.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Once again you dodge the question. There is no excess quantity of Roman articles, and you have not explained how ROme being special, if at all, has any bearing on this
Avilich (
talk) 15:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Avilich's proposal to have a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" seems quite reasonable to divide the huge Category:8th-century BC Romans. The extra cat Roman Kings would be dispensable. --
Just N. (
talk) 18:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support nominator. --
Just N. (
talk) 18:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support after all. Nom's implicit point that there are very very few pre-Republic articles is correct. I have been hesitant to react once more because I would not be in favor of creating
Category:6th-century Roman officeholders at all, that would be far too broad and vague. But we can create a
Category:Roman consuls by century tree; that would help diffusing the 6th-century BC category a lot too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)reply
For the record, I looked at the 6th-century ROmans category more closely and found that many of the entries there are bogus, and were just listed there because they were assumed (without evidence) to have lived in that century. That is, they were not actually 6th-century officeholders and are not in any way attested in the 6th century. I have substantially trimmed the category, so it's significantly smaller than it was when the discussion began. I don't think a '6th-century officeholders' category is even necessary now, though of course the idea of splitting that or other categories remains valid.
Avilich (
talk) 14:47, 14 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge there are only 7 Ancient Kings of Rome, we only need one category for them. They are mostly semi-historical figures and it is difficult to ascribe specific years to their reigns.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 23:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 06:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge (nom). Another argument for an upward merge, aside from SMALLCAT and navigational clutter, is that (as has been more or less noted above) the 7 kings of Rome are mostly legendary and apocryphal, as is most of early Roman history in general. Assigning arbitrary and specific chronological frames to each of these figures is bound to be speculative and inaccurate. The arguments for keeping rely on special pleading, such as that appeal to alleged common sense or the bizarre 'it's Roman-related so it must exist'. Still not seeing a good case for keeping these these intermediary period-based categories.
Avilich (
talk) 20:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs written by Mike Leeson
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: There's been a lot of confusion with this category over the years, being speedied in 2015, moved in 2017 as a result of
this CfD, and the content was unilaterally moved again just recently. According to ASCAP.com, the credited writer for the songs now in
Category:Songs written by Mick Leeson is Michael D. Leeson. Since there is no article for this person, the category should follow an official source. The history of the original category,
Category:Songs written by Mike Leeson, should be retained. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 16:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - it seems likely that the article would be
Michael D. Leeson if there were one. The songwriter is a defining characteristic of a song, regardless of whether there is an article.
Oculi (
talk) 19:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose The only public database entry was by his artist nickname e.g.
Mike Leeson. His civil citizen name doesn't play any role! Or would anybody vote for renaming the musician
Moby with his real name Richard Melville Hall? --
Just N. (
talk) 16:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC) reply
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Category:Ottoman emigrants to England
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Nominator's rationale: The only article is well before 1707
Rathfelder (
talk) 17:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete -- The one article refers to a Greek refugee from persecution by a Turkish governor of Athens. He was not an Ottoman, a term which refers only to the ruling family. The one article is well categorised.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:40, 5 September 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree that it should be speediable.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename The category should not cover anyone who emigrated between 1707 and 1924, when England was no longer independent.
Dimadick (
talk) 21:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I still say that a Greek citizen of the Ottoman Empire was NOT an Ottoman; nor was he a Turk, which might be the appropriate demonym if he was a Muslim. The statemetn that England ceased to be independent is highly offensive. In 1707, Scotland accepted Parliamentary union with England, which remained independent though with a Scottish dependency.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Could it not be said with equal accuracy that "In 1707, England accepted Parliamentary union with Scotland, which remained independent though with a joint dependency." ?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:51, 21 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per
Peterkingiron.
WP:SMALLCAT applies and, as Peter says, Greek subjects of the empire were not Ottomans or Turks. I don't get the reference to 1924 and to say England lost its independence is plain wrong.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)reply
We all agree that Greeks are not Turks or part of the Ottoman dynasty, that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about whether to rename to "from the Ottoman Empire". If the tree is going to be renamed in a fresh nomination then
Christopher Angelus belongs in it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 04:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- 1924 refers to the foundation of the Republic of Turkey (I think).
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Star Utsav original programming
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:procedural close, the category has already been deleted (
non-admin closure)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 02:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The catagory is for the original programming of the channel, but all shows were aired on different channels.
Shinnosuke15 (
talk) 03:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bulgarian scholars, writers and artists
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The result of the discussion was:delete, but I will move the lead article into appropriate categories. –
FayenaticLondon 12:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: I think "
Bulgarian scholars, writers and artists" is supposed to be the name of a c.1920 organization these people were part of, but it isn't attested in any of the biographies I spot-checked.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 02:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:English-language writers from Canada
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete. bibliomaniac15 04:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Not defining. English is by far the most common language in Canada so a non-Francophone writer from there *not* writing in English would be exceptional. In this light,
Category:Canadian writers in French, which is a well-established part of the category tree, makes a lot more sense. Graham87 15:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support per nominator -
JarrahTree 15:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose – it is a necessary subcategory of English-language writers. By deleting this category and continuing to imply that Canadian writers are English-language writers by default, you end up having to choose between 1) making English-language Canadian writers inaccessible from the English-language writers category or 2) putting Canadian writers under English-language writers, which is incorrect, because doing so makes French-language Canadian writers a subset of English-language writers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Iketsi (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. While it's true that
Category:English-language writers would be unnavigably large if it was just indiscriminately added to every writer from every majority-English country, it's also true that it's just silly and pointless to maintain dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from countries where English-language writers are the clear majority of all writers. So the long-established consensus has been that instead of either having dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from Canada, Australia, the United States or the United Kingdom or directly adding all of them to the parent, instead the categories for Canadian, Australian, American and British writers are simply listed on the
Category:English-language writers page with a "Most but not necessarily all writers in the following countries also wrote in English" proviso, so that the category itself can be restricted for size management purposes to English-language writers from countries where English-language writing is the exception rather than the norm. I don't see a reason why that practice isn't working, or needs to be overturned in favour of something different.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose there are two official languages in Canada, one used by a very large minority. There are large numbers of French-language writers who are award winning, and translated into English. And there are growing numbers of writers of indigenous languages in Canada, due to the promotion of traditional languages. Per Iketsi, the default should not be English, as award-winnng writers of non-English languages exist in Canada, for not just French. --
64.229.90.53 (
talk) 16:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Please consider carefully the meanings of the phrases "unnavigably large" and "unmaintainable". It's never, ever helpful to maintain a category that would have to have considerably more than 10,000 entries in it.
Bearcat (
talk) 15:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete It is not just that the vast majority of writers in Canada write in English. The bigger problem is that our articles on Cnaadian writers do not mention in gneral that they wrote in English. So even though we know that this is the case, it is not going to be stated in the articles, and often will not be stated explicitly in the sources. So adding this category will end up involving a lot of original research. For notmuch gain, because it will be an 80% of more overlap with the Canadian writers category, which in turn is huge. It basically boils down to why we do not have a category like
Category:White American politicians. Like analogies there are limits to it, but it makes sense to use reason. It is also basically the same reason why we do not have
Cateogry:American English language writers, the US lack of an official language is another factor, and there may be a lower percentage of the Hispanic and Latino American writers that write not in English when compared to Frnech-Canadian writers, but the US also had a hugely flourishing German-language news media before World War I, and also had several other non-English news medias, and many other forms of non-English writing. No country are you going to find 100% overlap between writers and language, but we need to avoid creating categories that will substantially overlap with the main language and lead to category clutter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 17:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:English-language writers from Australia
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:delete. No merge is needed. –
FayenaticLondon 17:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Not defining. Per the
Australia article, English is the de-facto national language here, so an Australian writer *not* writing in English would be exceptional. Graham87 15:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - per nominator
JarrahTree 15:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose – it is a necessary subcategory of English-language writers. By deleting this category and continuing to imply that Canadian writers are English-language writers by default, you end up having to choose between 1) making English-language Canadian writers inaccessible from the English-language writers category or 2) putting Canadian writers under English-language writers, which is incorrect, because doing so makes French-language Canadian writers a subset of English-language writers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Iketsi (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
In Canada it may be a different situation with a substantial French-speaking minority, but Australia does not have that.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
This item is about
Australia and I fail to be convinced how the Canadian case has anything to do with Australia, as the response has been made word for word as if the two countries are the same.
JarrahTree 22:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. While it's true that
Category:English-language writers would be unnavigably large if it was just indiscriminately added to every writer from every majority-English country, it's also true that it's just silly and pointless to maintain dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from countries where English-language writers are the clear majority of all writers. So the long-established consensus has been that instead of either having dedicated subcategories for English-language writers from Canada, Australia, the United States or the United Kingdom or directly adding all of them to the parent, instead the categories for Canadian, Australian, American and British writers are simply listed on the
Category:English-language writers page with a "Most but not necessarily all writers in the following countries also wrote in English" proviso, so that the category itself can be restricted for size management purposes to English-language writers from countries where English-language writing is the exception rather than the norm. I don't see a reason why that practice isn't working, or needs to be overturned in favour of something different.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:8th-century BC kings of Rome
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:merge. –
FayenaticLondon 15:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: All fail
WP:SMALLCAT, there are 7 or 8 kings in total, no need to have 3 separate categories for this
Avilich (
talk) 23:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)reply
If you look for more than 2 seconds you'll see that they're still being categorized by century, just not through the same category
Avilich (
talk) 04:38, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Why does your response begin with a confrontational and sarcastic note like "look for more than two seconds"? You could just as easily have written something like: "They are still categorised by century, just not through the same category". Surely you can discuss a topic without being ill-mannered?
Anyway, having already considered this for a reasonable amount of time, I still oppose the nomination. I'll use
Category:6th-century BC kings of Rome for example as all three are the same in categoric terms. If you upmerge this to
Category:6th-century BC monarchs, you ignore the sub-category split by realm while just adding the Roman kings to the miscellaneous items in the category. That would be poor categorisation because we need to focus on the historical aspects of each realm and I would think
Dimadick had that in mind when he rightly split
Category:6th-century BC monarchs. That is where your idea fails the
Category:Rulers by century tree. As for upmerging to each of
Category:Kings of Rome and
Category:6th-century BC Romans, it makes complete sense to have the by century split in the former and to separate the kings from the rest in the latter due to their historical importance. Finally, in systematic terms, the split into kings by century across all these trees is the best navigational solution.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 05:08, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
"we need to focus on the historical aspects", "due to their historical importance", what does that even mean? They're still being categorized according to their historical importance, they're still classified as both "Kings of Rome" and "6th-century BC monarchs", and they're still descended from the category "Rulers by century", only difference is there's now one less category. Having lots of smll makes navigation harder, not easier.
Avilich (
talk) 14:43, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The comments mean what they say. I fail to see what could possibly be so difficult to understand. As I have tried to explain to you below, navigation is about helping the users to find what they are looking for. As Dimadick says, if all the 6th century Romans are in one category, how does the reader see which are the kings if he doesn't already know their names? The sub-category makes it easy for him by presenting the three of them at a glance. That is good and effective navigation.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 20:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose How would navigation be helped by having all Romans in the same category, regardless of their social rank?
Dimadick (
talk) 05:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Exactly. In a case like this, historical importance outweighs WP guidelines. In any event, SMALLCAT includes: "unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme". Which is just what we have here with these three historical category trees.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 05:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Because most Romans aren't categorized by social rank in this context, and having unnecessary subcategories within the already small Kings of Rome doesn't improve navigation, it worsens it.
Avilich (
talk) 14:24, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
What Dimadick is saying is that the purpose of navigation is to enable the user to find things easily. The kings are arguably the 8th to 6th century BC Roman subjects most people will want to read about so, to ease navigation, they have been set apart from the rest in an identifiable location.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: A considerable amount of these are political officeholders, for which a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" would be a better solution than a permanent smallcat like "6th-century kings". If you think the category 6th-century BC Romans is unwieldy (it's far from it), a 6th-century kings category with only 3 articles will hardly change anything. An officeholder category, which I can support, will surely be a better solution.
Avilich (
talk) 14:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
irrelevant trolling
Using a modern term like officeholder in the context of an ancient kingdom would be anomalous in the extreme. It is in any case historically and politically incorrect to categorise these kings, who were absolute monarchs, alongside the early consuls, senators and others. As for the category being permanently small, which is true, you need to bear in mind that
WP:SMALLCAT "does not preclude all small categories" and we may retain "categories (which) are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme". SMALLCAT is only a guideline – to be applied using
WP:COMMONSENSE – and it is outweighed here by the historical and navigational considerations.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
none of the people I referred to are officeholders in the kingdom
Avilich (
talk) 15:03, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
No, you are meaning for example the ones who became consul after Tarquin was expelled. True enough, but I was meaning it would be incorrect to term absolute monarchs as "officeholders" and the term is also anachronistic for such as an early Roman consul. We could perhaps consider breaking out the early consuls into a sister sub-category for the kings, but that's not relevant here.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 15:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
When did I say that monarchs should be classified as officeholders? I only suggested a way to trim the parent category in a better way than it's currently done, but that's another discussion. Do you even pause to think and deliberate before replying?
Avilich (
talk) 16:59, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Avilich, I suggest you drop this provocative act of yours. Stop being confrontational and trying to twist things. You were blocked only a few weeks ago and you have been warned more than once about uncivil posts. You said above that "a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" would be a better solution than a permanent smallcat like "6th-century kings". That obviously means you would include the three kings among the "officeholders". If you meant something else, then alter your post above to try and make yourself clear. Finally, don't let me see any more of your "clever remarks". End of conversation.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 20:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
You're purposely misrepresenting my statement: Marcocapelle's concern was that the 6th-century Romans category was already too unwieldy, and I simply pointed out that it's possible to create several other types of subcats (with 'officeholder' being just an example) to address that problem. At no point did I mention that the kings would be part of them.
Avilich (
talk) 20:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Upmerge as nom. This will not result in the loss of data and will eliminate some small categories, created due to an unnecessary split.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose While I also generally support such nominations, I think that Rome is a worthy exception.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 09:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged: please tell me how does 'worthiness' translate into not being able to conveniently see the whole of 8 articles in a single category, and instead having to navigate back and forth between 3 different subcategories to view this extremely limited pool of entries. I could argue that Rome being 'worthy' should imply the exact opposite (that superfluous subcats should not stand in the way of convenience), or I could cite an actual policy/guideline to back up such a subjective argument.
Avilich (
talk) 20:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Rome is special in many ways: culturally and historically in western civilisation; the depth of articles in each topic that few other monarchies can match.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 09:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged: I'll ask again, how does this translate into having unnecessary subcategories that will make navigation worse? Rome being 'special', if anything, only makes the existence of unnecessary smallcats that more egregious, and you yourself stated you generally support their elimination.
Avilich (
talk) 13:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
At the risk of repeating myself, I oppose the nom as an exception to my usual position on such noms due to the exceptional nature of Rome and the quantity of Roman articles.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Once again you dodge the question. There is no excess quantity of Roman articles, and you have not explained how ROme being special, if at all, has any bearing on this
Avilich (
talk) 15:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Avilich's proposal to have a category like "6th-century Roman officeholders" seems quite reasonable to divide the huge Category:8th-century BC Romans. The extra cat Roman Kings would be dispensable. --
Just N. (
talk) 18:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support nominator. --
Just N. (
talk) 18:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support after all. Nom's implicit point that there are very very few pre-Republic articles is correct. I have been hesitant to react once more because I would not be in favor of creating
Category:6th-century Roman officeholders at all, that would be far too broad and vague. But we can create a
Category:Roman consuls by century tree; that would help diffusing the 6th-century BC category a lot too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)reply
For the record, I looked at the 6th-century ROmans category more closely and found that many of the entries there are bogus, and were just listed there because they were assumed (without evidence) to have lived in that century. That is, they were not actually 6th-century officeholders and are not in any way attested in the 6th century. I have substantially trimmed the category, so it's significantly smaller than it was when the discussion began. I don't think a '6th-century officeholders' category is even necessary now, though of course the idea of splitting that or other categories remains valid.
Avilich (
talk) 14:47, 14 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge there are only 7 Ancient Kings of Rome, we only need one category for them. They are mostly semi-historical figures and it is difficult to ascribe specific years to their reigns.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 23:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 06:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge (nom). Another argument for an upward merge, aside from SMALLCAT and navigational clutter, is that (as has been more or less noted above) the 7 kings of Rome are mostly legendary and apocryphal, as is most of early Roman history in general. Assigning arbitrary and specific chronological frames to each of these figures is bound to be speculative and inaccurate. The arguments for keeping rely on special pleading, such as that appeal to alleged common sense or the bizarre 'it's Roman-related so it must exist'. Still not seeing a good case for keeping these these intermediary period-based categories.
Avilich (
talk) 20:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Songs written by Mike Leeson
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: There's been a lot of confusion with this category over the years, being speedied in 2015, moved in 2017 as a result of
this CfD, and the content was unilaterally moved again just recently. According to ASCAP.com, the credited writer for the songs now in
Category:Songs written by Mick Leeson is Michael D. Leeson. Since there is no article for this person, the category should follow an official source. The history of the original category,
Category:Songs written by Mike Leeson, should be retained. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 16:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - it seems likely that the article would be
Michael D. Leeson if there were one. The songwriter is a defining characteristic of a song, regardless of whether there is an article.
Oculi (
talk) 19:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose The only public database entry was by his artist nickname e.g.
Mike Leeson. His civil citizen name doesn't play any role! Or would anybody vote for renaming the musician
Moby with his real name Richard Melville Hall? --
Just N. (
talk) 16:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Ottoman emigrants to England
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: The only article is well before 1707
Rathfelder (
talk) 17:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete -- The one article refers to a Greek refugee from persecution by a Turkish governor of Athens. He was not an Ottoman, a term which refers only to the ruling family. The one article is well categorised.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:40, 5 September 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree that it should be speediable.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename The category should not cover anyone who emigrated between 1707 and 1924, when England was no longer independent.
Dimadick (
talk) 21:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I still say that a Greek citizen of the Ottoman Empire was NOT an Ottoman; nor was he a Turk, which might be the appropriate demonym if he was a Muslim. The statemetn that England ceased to be independent is highly offensive. In 1707, Scotland accepted Parliamentary union with England, which remained independent though with a Scottish dependency.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Could it not be said with equal accuracy that "In 1707, England accepted Parliamentary union with Scotland, which remained independent though with a joint dependency." ?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:51, 21 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per
Peterkingiron.
WP:SMALLCAT applies and, as Peter says, Greek subjects of the empire were not Ottomans or Turks. I don't get the reference to 1924 and to say England lost its independence is plain wrong.
No Great Shaker (
talk) 14:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)reply
We all agree that Greeks are not Turks or part of the Ottoman dynasty, that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about whether to rename to "from the Ottoman Empire". If the tree is going to be renamed in a fresh nomination then
Christopher Angelus belongs in it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 04:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- 1924 refers to the foundation of the Republic of Turkey (I think).
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Star Utsav original programming
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:procedural close, the category has already been deleted (
non-admin closure)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 02:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The catagory is for the original programming of the channel, but all shows were aired on different channels.
Shinnosuke15 (
talk) 03:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Bulgarian scholars, writers and artists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete, but I will move the lead article into appropriate categories. –
FayenaticLondon 12:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: I think "
Bulgarian scholars, writers and artists" is supposed to be the name of a c.1920 organization these people were part of, but it isn't attested in any of the biographies I spot-checked.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 02:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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